Counter Pick Rule Doesn't Make Sense

[Quic]

lol apparently youve never fought a spacie on brinstar. its **** to the utmost.

whoops double post sorry...

Yeah i do, i never counterpick it to people with puff secondaries though.
How difficult is it to understand that one simple thing you've been ignoring out of my posts? don't pick against characters, but against players, and if you can't do that make it so that you benefit your own character, instead of to your opponent's.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This means that i can never rely on cps. good.

Yep, maybe you should l2p

 

[n1000]

Ok N1000000. The idea im suggesting is this.

The first match of a set is played on a neutral.
then bans are chosen
After that match the winner picks his character
Then the loser picks his character and a cps a stage

I see your reasoning. This allows the loser to cp the winners character with both character and stage. The main difference in your idea from the traditional CP rule is it benefits the counter-picking player a bit more. Since in a full set there are an even number of CPed games, equal number for both players, pretty much any strategy is "fair." though as you've illustrated, currently, having backup characters is a big bonus.

The rules are as is rather than your way because we don't want CPing to be a direct counter to a known opponent but rather a means to allow the disadvantaged player to choose a stage they like...counter picking might not be as powerful as you'd like it to be but it's not completely worthless and it allows for a pretty convenient, balanced situation.

This is the ideal case.

player A wins.
player B picks his/her favorite stage
if player A's character primary is completely worthless on that stage he/she is given the opportunity to switch
Player B gets to switch if they believe they have a better chance against A's new character.

This system works quite fairly for a majority of sets, given the loser's choice of stage and second character choice. The only pitfall is when your opponent can character counter your secret weapon of a CP stage...in which case they pretty much have an absolute advantage over you.

tl;dr: I see where you're coming from Lordydennek, but your system would increase the effect of counter picks to the point where the first match has undue bearing on the result of the set (the loser of the prior match gets to directly counter the winner's character so at almost equal skill levels you're pretty much guaranteed a win on your CP...)

 

[Charlesz]

Sigh... i could use jiggs i suppose...i mean we all saw how great the grand finals of pound 4 were.........

The point being that i can beat him even on dreamland or whatever but given the stage and character he will have a def. advantage even if we are of equal skill. Since he just won that means that the loser should get the advantage of the cp and counter character pick (ccp).

CP rainbow cruise for free win.

 

[gnosis]

I dont see it as an autowin. its extremely easy to gimp there. play sheik and needle him. play smart on the boat. i just see it plainly that the winner gets the advantage of MY cp...the end

Stop thinking of counterpicking like "Oh, he played Fox first round, so I can just take him to brinstar and win!" and start thinking like "What stages am I comfortable with, what's good for my character, and how does this stage limit my opponent's options? What sort of characters could he respond to this stage with, and what do I have that can beat them there?", etc.

There's a lot of strategy in it and you're oversimplifying it and proposing a very lazy system in comparison.

And yes, counterpicking someone who plays a lot of different characters can be very hard, but that's kind of the point of playing a lot of different characters - avoiding bad MUs. Still, since you pick second, you have the final say on what MU will actually play out. Take advantage of it!

 

[Igcoris]

Yep, maybe you should l2p

seriously.

If counterpicking gives you auto-wins, then what's the point in playing best of 3 or 5? Whoever wins the first match should auto-win the set.

qft. what you're suggesting is basically first match winner takes all, since the ideas of your cp rule suggest that cps should give a mountainous advantage to the loser almost to the point of where the loser gets an autowin.

 

[Lordydennek]

I can play. i guess the fact that i would like a stage bonus is moot??? i want to get the upperhand in anyway i can. i would prefer not to face a puff on brinstar...thats all im saying. so from now on i just have to guess at what ppls secondaries are if ive never played them... i do understand your points tho. i can see where it encourages having many alt characters. thats good but it elimnates most of the usefulness of cps imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It doesn't change the usefulness at all.

When CPing a stage I would only do so if I knew all of the following:

1) My character is the best or one of the best characters on the stage
2) He doesn't have a strong secondary that is great on the stage
3) I know how to use the stage better than him

As less of it becomes known, you must infer. Whats his technical skill as you saw from game 1? Whats his mental skill? What elements of the game did he favor and in which areas was he weak? Am i confident enough to handle a puff secondary from this opponent?

You can't just blindly pick stages and call shenanigans when someone changes characters so that they can actually play on the stage. Use a little foresight.

 

[Inaphyt]

I agree with lordydennek, The idea that you have to learn more than one character is ridiculous, and countering the player? That is ridiculous. The rule should be different, how about first game neutral, second game winner picks character, loser picks character and stage. If he loses that then it's obvious who's better. The loser of that round does the same, as this will be more likely to increase skill levels and lower the different in "counter picks" people will play harder and there will be more glorious sets to watch. Aswell as awkward gambles etc.

A stage doesn't guarantee a win whatsoever it's not an impossibility for falco to destroy on brinstar if the falco knows the stage well, however because falco's don't learn the stage because it's not considered good noone makes any progress.

 

[Igcoris]

Inaphyt, you're using one example that doesn't generalize the whole cast. Not every character would like to go to brinstar (or any non neutral in this matter), and people that main different characters would suffer an autolose if they went to brinstar against a character that's good on brinstar. The idea of "how about first game neutral, second game winner picks character, loser picks character and stage" would give a giant advantage to the winner of the first match, since they would decide the last stage (given they lost the 2nd match) ALREADY knowing the character choices before his own. Your cp rule would make an equal skilled match into a gay one.

falco would only destroy on brinstar if the skill level between players shows a clear advantage for the falco. if not, the stage barely works in falco's favour and gives the player that chose brinstar a giant advantage.

 

[Strong Badam]

i hate having to use more than one character, I got gayed so hard on my own CP's when I used DK that I picked up Fox as my secondary and then realized that Fox was so much easier to win with <_<

 

[Inaphyt]

Inaphyt, you're using one example that doesn't generalize the whole cast. Not every character would like to go to brinstar (or any non neutral in this matter), and people that main different characters would suffer an autolose if they went to brinstar against a character that's good on brinstar. The idea of "how about first game neutral, second game winner picks character, loser picks character and stage" would give a giant advantage to the winner of the first match, since they would decide the last stage (given they lost the 2nd match) ALREADY knowing the character choices before his own. Your cp rule would make an equal skilled match into a gay one.

falco would only destroy on brinstar if the skill level between players shows a clear advantage for the falco. if not, the stage barely works in falco's favour and gives the player that chose brinstar a giant advantage.

Has it ever been discussed to do something like, neutral, winner picks character, loser picks stage and character if the loser wins, it goes back to neutral. 3 neutral wins = Win. Lose on your counterpicked stage and you lose the game. How can you disagree with this one : P?

Nowhere near as gay as having someone else reap the rewards of your stage choice.

Alternatively though you could just pick up jiggs, fights well on every stage against any character.

This would favour the better player, and thus the right person would win the matches.

 

[Igcoris]

"how about first game neutral, second game winner picks character, loser picks character and stage" has been discussed back in page 3 already. people already see it as an unfair way to do counterpicks.

i'd attempt to argue with you, but there are already facts all over this thread as to why that idea of cping definitely has more problems than the cp rule we have now.

 

[n1000]

Has it ever been discussed to do something like, neutral, winner picks character, loser picks stage and character if the loser wins, it goes back to neutral. 3 neutral wins = Win. Lose on your counterpicked stage and you lose the game. How can you disagree with this one

Quite easily, really. Your suggestion, unlike Lordydennek's, doesn't even sound good in theory. You entered this thread with spuriously countering strawman arguments not-quite made in the thread.
Recall: "The idea that you have to learn more than one character is ridiculous." No it's not, though no one said you have to. Learning multiple characters is a good idea. More versatility is better.

"countering the player? That is ridiculous." What the hell are you talking about? You can't just make that unjustified claim. Christ.

I'm going to take a brief moment to respond to the only idea in any of your posts, generation II of the "100% fair" (but actually horrible) Counter-picking system suggestion.

Your idea is hilariously complicated. Consider this sequence of winning players 121=player 1 wins first, then 2 then 1 again.

122112212 player 2 ultimatimately wins, he won 3 neutral stages and no one lost on their counterpick (of course no one lost, you get to CP both stage and character) see the problem? 9 match sets...you pulled this idea out of your ***, it's a terrible idea. Please spend more than 10 minutes considering the implications of your suggestion before you proclaim its brilliance, I guarantee you'll look like less of an fool to your peers in no time.

Back to what I want to talk about. If anyone is going to post a suggestion as to why the CPing system is broken/unfair or suggest a better rule they are hereby required to explain what is the point of counterpicking

examples: To artificially make sets longer. Gives losers a chance to play at least one match on a stage they like. etc...

 

[Inaphyt]

Ok i'll explain a little more in depth lol.

The first match is played one wins one loses.

The winner picks his character for round 2, the loser picks his character and the stage.

The loser has a favourable match to play however his opponent can still knock him out in the second round.

If the loser wins. It goes back to a neutral stage, this way it doesn't favour either player winning or losing the first round.

The 3rd match will go back to a neutral favouring neither side, perhaps on the second counterpick game the winner get's to ban one more stage than usual.

This sounds entirely fair to me.

 

[n1000]

I like how you addressed any of the points in my post. Either your reading comprehension is at such a low level you don't even understand your idea or your ability to articulate yourself is about on par with *sigh* the average poster on smashboards.

I kinda want to walk you through why your idea is a bad one but a little more than that I want to lie in bed crying into a pillow because I've spent a cool hour of my Friday night arguing with neanderthals. (of course I don't mean you guys!)

Cheers.

 

[Rappster]

I like how you addressed any of the points in my post. Either your reading comprehension is at such a low level you don't even understand your idea or your ability to articulate yourself is about on par with *sigh* the average poster on smashboards.

I kinda want to walk you through why your idea is a bad one but a little more than that I want to lie in bed crying into a pillow because I've spent a cool hour of my Friday night arguing with neanderthals. (of course I don't mean you guys!)

Cheers.

welcome to the internet.
none of us can read. why the eff are you even trying to argue with us? We're obviously too stupid to see your point

 

[JustCallMeJay]

oops, sorry guys

 

[Lordydennek]

I like how you addressed any of the points in my post. Either your reading comprehension is at such a low level you don't even understand your idea or your ability to articulate yourself is about on par with *sigh* the average poster on smashboards.

I kinda want to walk you through why your idea is a bad one but a little more than that I want to lie in bed crying into a pillow because I've spent a cool hour of my Friday night arguing with neanderthals. (of course I don't mean you guys!)

Cheers.

who are you and why are you being an *******??? Whats funny is you took the time to address us neanderthals... what does that make you?

 

[n1000]

Tired.

Honestly I have no qualm with you Lordydennek, you seem sincere and I'd be pissed too if I had to play against puff on brinstar. I think the argument for the current CP system was well stated in this topic and despite disagreeing with you, the discussion was certainly thought provoking.

Good luck against your friend.

 

[Lordydennek]

Tired.

Honestly I have no qualm with you Lordydennek, you seem sincere and I'd be pissed too if I had to play against puff on brinstar. I think the argument for the current CP system was well stated in this topic and despite disagreeing with you, the discussion was certainly thought provoking.

Good luck against your friend.

That was a respectful response. Although i didnt like the way you addressed Inaphyt. thats why i said that. Thanks for the luck.

 

[Inaphyt]

I wont be told it's not ridiculous to learn multiple characters. Go and look at any other fighter, you don't see those players changing characters to suit the other persons.

No they sit down and master one character regardless of who the other person chooses.

Why is melee so special? Why should you have to have a secondary because someone chose a stage? I think most fighting communities would actually be shocked by that alone.

Maybe they should just screw the cp system altogether, and when you sign up to a tournament you give your name and your character if you bump into a character that happens to be a counter for you pick a better characteror get good enough to make a difficult matchup winnable, maybe the tier list would be entirely more reflective of truth this way.

 

[TresChikon]

The double elimination format in America gives Melee more depth.

You're supposed to learn many characters, so you can adapt using previous knowledge gained from an earlier match.

It's not like in Japan where you only have one shot, so you're forced and limited to learn horrible MU's with one character.

The current system allows Melee players to go more in-depth than other games.

If you take it away, the game loses its complexity and you no longer have that intricate understanding of your own and other players' options. Plenty of things require this understanding besides Melee, like Poker.

Just grasping Melee and its tier list alone isn't enough to win tourneys, you need to understand that the choices and decisions outside of Melee such as mains, secondaries, CP's, advantages, disadvantages, etc. are equally important and are probably what make Melee so compelling to play.

 

[Inaphyt]

The double elimination format in America gives Melee more depth.

You're supposed to learn many characters, so you can adapt using previous knowledge gained from an earlier match.

It's not like in Japan where you only have one shot, so you're forced and limited to learn horrible MU's with one character.

The current system allows Melee players to go more in-depth than other games.

If you take it away, the game loses its complexity and you no longer have that intricate understanding of your own and other players' options. Plenty of things require this understanding besides Melee, like Poker.

Just grasping Melee and its tier list alone isn't enough to win tourneys, you need to understand that the choices and decisions outside of Melee such as mains, secondaries, CP's, advantages, disadvantages, etc. are equally important and are probably what make Melee so compelling to play.

Poker is the worst ever comparison to melee i have ever heard in my life.

Troll sentence out the way. Surely the game will actually GAIN in complexity because in order to win a troubling matchup things have to get very complex. I'm a strong believer that when talking about top tier and high tier it doesn't really matter which character it is fighting which it's entirely possible for a win regardless of cp's.

There's nothing stopping anyone learning other characters outside of tournaments there's no reason for you to be forced to use them in a tournament setting.

If you were to take the rule away and people didn't have to venture off and learn other characters that WILL subconciously hinder your other characters i'm sure there would be an even higher level than we're seeing today. (which is very high as it is)

It's sort of like pokemon, if you train up one it will become monstrous and crush most other pokemons, but if you have 5 others they get an equal share but your most monstrous beast will always be neglected at some point.

It's true that by playing other characters you learn them, you should play all the characters in the first place to find out who you are good at using. After you've reached a limit whereby you cannot progress anymore playing other characters teaches you tricks that you can apply to your main.

When you switch to your secondaries you will always make mistakes after playing as your main for a while. This is why you shouldn't have to switch, imagine the grand finals where the player has just destroyed every other player with the same character and has warmed to the point of no return.

Players that stick to their mains regardless deserve respect.

 

[TresChikon]

Poker is the worst ever comparison to melee i have ever heard in my life.

I don't think you're one to criticize when you're comparing Pokemon to Melee.

After you've reached a limit whereby you cannot progress anymore playing other characters teaches you tricks that you can apply to your main.

Pokemon reach Lv. 100; they cap.

Melee doesn't have a "Lv. 100," there is no cap.

I was comparing Melee to Poker because both are infinitely complex in their own sense. You can't be perfect at Poker nor can you be perfect at Melee.

Pokemon max out at Lv. 100, that's it.

When you switch to your secondaries you will always make mistakes after playing as your main for a while. This is why you shouldn't have to switch, imagine the grand finals where the player has just destroyed every other player with the same character and has warmed to the point of no return.

Players that stick to their mains regardless deserve respect.

PC Chris and Azen don't deserve respect?

 

[Lordydennek]

I can see both points of this debate. If you wanted to main one character then you should be able to choose favorable stages for it that are also bad for your opponent. Of course its harder to do that under the present system than it would be on mine.
But
Having more than one character is advantagous. It causes your opponent to have to change style, it could throw off thier rythm or just take them by surprise. But no one should be forced to have more than one. They just have to understand that they wont have an edge with the CPs which is sucky.

 

[-Sinister-]

ok i saw someone way back say this, but this is what i think about this topic after hearing you ***** about it while we play lol. the counterpick should give you a slight advantage (if you play it right), but it should not give you such a huge advantage that you basically get a free win. (again. yes i know somone pretty much said this earlier. but i had to say something...)

ps: never go brinstar. i hate that stage and will always go puff lol. but i'm sure you know that by know

pps: but of course you should all disregard my opinion as "some random kid who doesn't know what he's talking about" since this is the first post i made.

 

[TresChikon]

the counterpick should give you a slight advantage (if you play it right), but it should not give you such a huge advantage that you basically get a free win.

Well, you're absolutely right.

CPs shouldn't give a player an auto-win, but if the other player doesn't know his stuff, it most certainly will.

The more a player understand CPs, the less the CP will hinder him, if he doesn't do his homework at all, then the CP will wreck him.

 

[Lordydennek]

ok i saw someone way back say this, but this is what i think about this topic after hearing you ***** about it while we play lol. the counterpick should give you a slight advantage (if you play it right), but it should not give you such a huge advantage that you basically get a free win. (again. yes i know somone pretty much said this earlier. but i had to say something...)

ps: never go brinstar. i hate that stage and will always go puff lol. but i'm sure you know that by know

pps: but of course you should all disregard my opinion as "some random kid who doesn't know what he's talking about" since this is the first post i made.

Pish ****ing noob.

 

[Luma]

if people think its wrong or bad or whatever to use other chars then your main, its useless talking to them anyway since they dont have the competive spirit that is needed for this game to play on a high level

i think some guys already said this, but dont CP the char, CP the player, meaning you need way more thoughts like what will he play, should i try to get the stage or char advantage, etc

 

[Inaphyt]

The spirit needed to play this at a high limit exists, because right now and probably until the end of melee, switching characters loads is a casual normal thing.

However if that privilege was taken away earlier, the true spirit would be wow he just won a whole tourny as ROY against ice climbers and marths and sheiks that was awesome man, he must know everything about roy that there is! Yea imagine if he sat down and learnt another character wasting the time he could of spent furthering his main lol.

I think the pokemon relevanance is better than poker, pokemon is also played at tournies and unfortunately for me at this point. At high levels it's more of a game of poker, there are certain viable moves and characters and also unfortunately alot of luck whereby you can never be perfect as you stated.

However the reason they have 6 characters that you can carry at a time is because of the counterpicks, and seriously because of types etc all pokemon weak to a stronger one has a 100% Losing matchup. If you were meant to switch why didn't they have 6 different characters for when you die? Some idiot made up this rule it's not the way it's "suppose" to be.

Nothing in melee is like this as it's a skill game not a game of patience like pokemon and poker.

People talk about patience or (getting space to think) in melee but in real time that space to think could be literally a wave dash away lasting 0.5 seconds before engaging again.

That is not patience at all.

 

[Proverbs]

Just play Falcon. If you win, you're awesome because, chances are, you won a match-up that was a lot harder for you than it was for them. If you lose, everyone hates them for beating Falcon with some dumb character. Falcon always wins ever.

But seriously: I see where the OP is coming from. However, you can't just take an auto-win. We should be trying to counter the player, but you don't always know who uses who, and can put yourself in a bad situation because of that. So either someone needs to declare which characters they may be using before the set begins, or you're allowed to reconsider your CP after they choose their character. I think the first option is better, though.

But it doesn't really matter unless it's a tournament match. It sounds like you were just playing friendlies. If that's the case, you should just calm down a little. People lose matches stupidly at times. This won't be the last time something like this happens to you.

 

[marklar2]

I'm sure a lot of this was already said, so my bad if I'm repeating anything. Just wanted to throw in my two cents.


First of all (@ OP), your suggested system of winner has to pick their character first followed by the loser picking character and stage allows for the loser to pick the absolute worst possible match-up combination for the winner (character and stage) if they wanted. While they likely won't pick a character they never use for a slightly better match up, this is still an unfair advantage at a competitive level and would just make sets likely come down to who wins game 1.

Unless you're a low tier main, the stage makes for the biggest match-up changes (probability wise, not gameplay), so it only makes sense that the stage should be the first one chosen for a CP. While the CP system is designed to give the losing player help, it's also not there to screw the winning player over. If a player can switch between characters and beat you on your stages, then he's better than you. It doesn't mean it needs to be changed more in your favor. There are basically two main ways that you can CP:

1. You CP a stage that is going to benefit the character you're going to use. This is your safest bet for a good counter-pick and is the one you should use if you don't have good secondaries (or also if you do). The fact that it's a good stage for you makes it less relevant what character your opponent picks, making it the safest choice.

2. You CP a stage with the purpose of hindering your opponent's character. This is a good option if your opponent is better than you or if you have a hard time with your opponent's character. Your opponent is more likely to switch characters this way than with method one, so you should be aware that this can just lead to a more neutral game, or in your case, actually to your opponents advantage.

Either way if your opponent is beating you regardless of how you CP, then as stated earlier he is better than you, or you just got outplayed. There are other fair ways I think you could set a counter-pick system up, but being able to freely choose the stage after characters are picked is not one of them.

 

[Tyson651]

i see. but i main shiek. i mean we were goin to brinstar so i wouldnt pick fox against puff there....and sheik cant do too much to puff on brinstar if the puff is smart. the Fair kill is not very useful. sheik has the uair but if the puff is smart shell stay under sheik which is SOOOO easy to do on brinstar... thus there's no answer there. EVEN if we are of equal skill he would always have an advantage.

I dont know who you are. but i play more than one character....but sheik is good against puff so thats why i used her. but on brinstar, if the puff is good, she can take away all sheiks advantages. Im not mad that i lost. im mad that i CANT possible cp a stage agianst his fox...like Rhan said it would be even more fair if it was just double blind the whole time. the winner should have to pick w/o knowing the stage it makes so much more sense. thats the way my friends and i have been playing for months on the basis of pure logic...

sheik sucks on brinstar.

u failed at that part already.

u're CPing based on their character, not based on ur character and preference.

lets say he doesnt play jiggs, and he plays any of ganon/marth/samus/falcon, im sure he would switch if he felt that his other characters were good on that stage. you cant CP solely on ur opponent's one character he's using.

i feel like im repeating some of the prior posts saying that u're suppose to counter the player, not the character; but its so important that it must be emphasized cause u're totally seeing it wrong.

and lets say u really do want to CP against his fox, u could always go FD with a sheik, falco or marth. or FoD with sheik or marth, etc.

u just need to think about covering ur options. its like chess, even with u getting the first move (which i presume its advantageous) u still need cover options. just like CPing.

and as a last resort, if u still have a problem with it, u can organize ur own tourney with ur own rules. u obviously dont have to abide with the rules the majority of people use.

 

[Massive]

I don't know why we even have a counterpick rule.
IMO we should just random stage 3 times with character picks.

It's more fun to play from a disadvantage anyway, you improve more.

 

[Tyson651]

too random for smash for money on the line.

dunno if u're joking or not though. -_-

 

[Massive]

too random for smash for money on the line.

dunno if u're joking or not though. -_-

I almost always end up counter-picking neutrals anyway.

I'm a Marth/Jiggs main though, I really don't feel disadvantaged on any stage.
Sometimes I'll counter-pick Yoshi's story hoping they go Marth and go Jiggs.
Rest is always a KO on Yoshi's. <3 <3 <3

I've also noticed people tend to respect you a bit more if you don't opt for the cheap advantage stage (speaking from experience of years of picking mute city with jiggs as a counter).

edited for clarity

 

[Luma]

who the **** cares wether or not a bunch of little kids respect you or not?

 

[Massive]

who the **** cares wether or not a bunch of little kids respect you or not?

Don't play with little kids?

If the only thing you do in life is play melee, you shouldn't care.
However when you want to make friends, it's better not to be an *******. Unless you're a hilarious *******.

 

[Luma]

i dont care wether or not someone thinks i am an idiot because i play gay in a videogame
thats the point