CounterPick list

[metaknight007]

im just going to make a counterpick list just to show what characters are best against other characters. just post how you think the list shud be pls and ill add it depending if other users concur


Luigi:
Ness:
Mario:
Yoshi:
D.K. :
Kirby:
Link :
Fox:
Samus:
Pikachu:
C.Falcon:
Jigglypuff:

 

[M3tr01D]

what stage is this list for? for instance falcon has the advantage over DK everywhere but mushroom kingdom and hyrule castle. What stage are we using to form the list?

 

[metaknight007]

Dreamland is probably the most played lvl so dreamland unless you have a different idea?

 

[Zantetsu]

No no no no no no no...Thats not what he means. He means there should be one for hyrule, dreamland and all the stages not just one.

And btw hyrule is most played

 

[_kSo_]

falconland = advantage -> CF

 

[Rupus]

I think Moogle made a table already, which was very well presented, and very useful.

 

[Zantetsu]

Orriginal thread click here

....... | Pi Ki Ne Fo CF Ji Ma Yo DK Lu Sa Li
--------+------------------------------------
Pikachu | -- 55 65 55 65 55 60 65 70 70 70 80
Kirby.. | 45 -- 60 60 65 55 60 65 65 60 65 75
Ness... | 35 40 -- 50 55 45 55 65 65 60 65 80
Fox.... | 45 40 50 -- 45 60 55 55 60 70 75 75
Falcon. | 35 35 45 55 -- 50 50 55 60 60 65 75
Jiggly. | 45 45 55 40 50 -- 45 55 55 35 40 60
Mario.. | 35 40 45 45 50 55 -- 55 55 55 60 70
Yoshi.. | 35 35 35 45 45 45 45 -- 55 55 65 70
DK..... | 30 35 35 40 40 50 45 45 -- 60 60 75
Luigi.. | 30 40 40 30 40 65 45 45 40 -- 55 55
Samus.. | 30 35 35 25 35 60 40 35 40 45 -- 50
Link... | 20 25 20 25 25 40 30 30 25 45 50 --


This is an analogue to the SSBM All Characters Match-up Chart by Phanna. The numbers represent a character's percent chance of winning that match-up against an opponent of equal skill. For example, the 55 next to Pikachu and under "Ki" (Kirby) means that a Pikachu would empirically have a 55% chance of winning against an equally skilled Kirby.

The idea for this SSB64 chart started in the stickied SSB64 tier thread. I decided to make a new topic so more people would see this. Right now this chart is text-only... graphics may come in a future update.

I didn't spend hours deciding on all of these numbers, so you guys should help fix up this table. Some of these match-ups I don't really know much about (Yoshi vs Luigi?). Give me some comments, suggestions, corrections, etc. You could even copy/paste my table and put in your own values.

Last thing, I thought you guys might find this interesting... each character's average, based on my values:

Pikachu 64.5454
Kirby.. 61.3636
Ness... 55.9090
Fox.... 57.2727
Falcon. 53.1818
Jiggly. 47.2727
Mario.. 51.3636
Yoshi.. 48.1818
DK..... 46.8181
Luigi.. 44.0909
Samus.. 39.0909
Link... 30.4545

(This is ordered by the tier list positions, not numerically)

 

[Winston]

Isn't this really hard to pin down for ssb64 due to 1). the small sample size of active competitive players and 2). the huge variance in individual skill level?

There are also only a few truly top players, compared to in melee.

This kinda makes it so personal bias is huge, because a lot of matchups are vastly different depending on what skill level you're at.


for example, personally I'd say that falcon does great vs. pikachu, because pikachus rarely beat me as falcon. This could be because I never play good pikachus, though. On the other hand, isai's dominance of falcons with his pikachu could be just because he's isai, and not because pika beats falcon.

 

[Zantetsu]

If ur talking about skill being a factor u didnt read it all

" The numbers represent a character's percent chance of winning that match-up against an opponent of equal skill."

 

[gnosis]

If ur talking about skill being a factor u didnt read it all

" The numbers represent a character's percent chance of winning that match-up against an opponent of equal skill."

That's what a match up chart, and tier list really, ideally represents.

But if you don't have ideal data (i.e., lots of really good players, lots of matches and results to draw from, like he was talking about), then you won't have ideal results (i.e., tier lists and matchups).

In other words, basic statistics. If you have a bad sample, your results don't mean much.

I know nothing about the 64 scene or where that matchup chart came from, though. I'm just clearing this little thing up.

 

[Winston]

If ur talking about skill being a factor u didnt read it all

" The numbers represent a character's percent chance of winning that match-up against an opponent of equal skill."

What I meant was that the matchup is different at different skill levels, even if the two players are equal. For two newbie players at an equally low skill level, pika has that advantage on falcon, even on dreamland, due to frequent backthrow/edgeguards.

At a medium level (where I am), falcon has the advantage because although he can still be backthrow/edgeguard KOed, its a lot harder to land that grab, and a lot easier for falcon to land that upsmash and combo.

At a high level, maybe it goes back to pika (like in isai's videos), but what I'm saying is that we can't tell because there are so few players at a high level AND equally skilled.

That's why I think it's pointless/impossible for people to agree on a tier list/matchup list on ssb, with its small sample.

 

[Zantetsu]

Ohhhhhhh ok i see what ur talking about now...

 

[metaknight007]

if a list has already been made then meowkitty can close this thread

 

[CyrusTheGreat]

Wait don't close the threat, I believe the original question was match ups on certain maps. So maybe we could determine which characters would have a higher percentage against another character.

Like Link versus kirby on dreamland, link will have a very tough fight.

But on Hyrule, link has more space to use projectiles. Wouldn't that change the outcome significantly?

 

[_kSo_]

Wait don't close the threat, I believe the original question was match ups on certain maps. So maybe we could determine which characters would have a higher percentage against another character.

Like Link versus kirby on dreamland, link will have a very tough fight.

But on Hyrule, link has more space to use projectiles. Wouldn't that change the outcome significantly?

Thats very true. If in fact that is the question, then perhaps there is more to this thread than we had once thought?

but like i said before, falcon has advantage against most characters on dreamland

 

[captain smashie01]

how does samus counter jiggs?

 

[Jigglymaster]

B air easily kills Jiggs. Can be done by comboing with the d airs, then leading to a b air.

 

[_kSo_]

LOL that combo is samus's prime killing move

 

[Winston]

The samus pillar of doom is quite deadly if you're caught unawares =(