CP'ing, yes. Discussion #2, G&W.

[Man of Popsicle]

I figured this shouldn't be in the stage discussion, because it's big enough to be it's own thread. I'll put the results in the thread once we're done. CP'ing is important for Ness, because we need all of the advantages we can get. Ness has a lot of good stages, and some of these have hazards or gimmicks other character fall prey too. So, the match-ups.

Major advantages: 70-30

Advantages: 60-40
Lucas
Samus
Captain Falcon
Fox
Bowser
Jigglypuff

Slight advantages: 55-45
Ike
Link
ZSS
Olimar
Yoshi


Even: 50-50
Lucario
Sonic
Zelda
Kirby
Pikachu
Luigi

Slight disadvantage: 45-55
Falco
Peach
Pit
Ice Climbers
DK
Rob
Mario

Disadvantage: 40-60
Toon Link
Sheik
Metaknight
Wario
Dedede
Marth

Major disadvantage: 30-70

Undecided
Diddy
Snake

So we should work our way (From Disadvantage) up. First up: Marth.

His grab release crap. Picking stages without walk-offs/walls and with curved terrain is a must. Platforms are also bad against Marth. So, discuss.
Lylat, Brinstar, Pokemon Stadiums.


Game & Watch
Bucket and Bair.

 

[Uffe]

Well to start things off, what stages aren't good for Marth? I know Brinstar isn't and we all know that's a good stage for Ness. So Brinstar would be your best choice, I think.

 

[Shaky]

Wrong. Do not Counterpick Brinstar to Marth, I've tried it two times in tournament and I have lost both matches ( Brinstar is my main Counterpick by the way). The best stage would be SmashVille or Delfino Plaza (which have actually worked for me against Marth players in tournament).

 

[Uffe]

Care to explain why Brinstar is not a good stage to counterpick? If Marth is doing well on that stage, then we've been lied to or you're missing something. Smashville is an open plain with a platform moving left and right and it's not exactly the safest place to be. And you can be infinited on Delfino Plaza.

Anyway, I found the link to good and bad stages for characters, MoP. This should help us out.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233808

 

[kennypu]

I would say brinstar would be a good level against marth. Basicly and level with the main platform being able to attack from underneath. Unless the marth user is totally aware, you can easily attack them from beneath the stage, something the marth cannot do very well to his punishable upb.

other than that, my choice would be pirate ship. in the water, you can spike marth at around 20%(30% at least), and it would be hard for them to gimp you if you know what you are doing. Marth's spike isn't all too great, so unless you are at high percentage, you should be fine. Just stay away from the sides if you are to pick this level, if you allow them to get in the center(near to the center while you are on the outside), you will have a hard time.

 

[Gaussis]

I don't think Ness can exploit Marth's weaknesses on Brinstar. At least not on the unbroken stage. The broken stage might offer some advantages though. Basically Ness needs to attack Marth underneath him so he won't Dolphin Slash every time you attack his shield. Also, he can't attack under platforms very well, so that's another reason to do so.

It is possible to camp on the side of the stage with PKT if the lava is high enough. However, don't rely on this too much because Marth's sword is more than a match for PKT if he catches on.

 

[kennypu]

I don't think Ness can exploit Marth's weaknesses on Brinstar. At least not on the unbroken stage. The broken stage might offer some advantages though. Basically Ness needs to attack Marth underneath him so he won't Dolphin Slash every time you attack his shield. Also, he can't attack under platforms very well, so that's another reason to do so.

It is possible to camp on the side of the stage with PKT if the lava is high enough. However, don't rely on this too much because Marth's sword is more than a match for PKT if he catches on.

speaking of pkt, don't forget about the multi-hit pkt2 on the bubble part in the center. this can get past marth's counter if lucky, and most people are unaware of this(unless of course you fought them before and did it)

 

[Eagleye893]

............. I can't really think of CPs for Marth. I would say brinstar, cause i see no problem with it. if that was banned by you're opponent (a bit random but oh well), then whatever other stage you like or play well on that you can't get infinited on. I don't know too many good marth mains, so i don't know exactly how to counter them.

for every character in the future to be discussed also, I would say to never counterpick jungle japes. i die so many times on that stage by a stupid klaptrap... and poorly timed pkt's; if you're using pkt above the water and hit the water while it's still moving you start moving down the stream immediately...

 

[PKSkyler]

I always cp Brinstar. Works freaking wonders. i can beat some marths when on a neutral id get 3 stocked.

Platforms arnt that bad against Marth. Just cause you cant be gtrabbed, doesnt mean you wont get aerialed the crap out of. Of course, dotn go final d or anythign, but I mean Marth's main stage is battlefield.

 

[kennypu]

one add on, in brinstar, if you can break apart the level, and land a spike or a gimp in the middle, thats almost guaranteed a stock, because you cannot grab the edges

 

[deepseadiva]

You could simply water camp for an entire match on Pirate Ship.

Simply stay in the water, jump to unleash PKT, and repeat. Spam dair if they attempt to engage you in the water. While it's a pretty lame strategy, usually resulting in a time-out, there's no chance of a grab. :D

 

[kennypu]

You could simply water camp for an entire match on Pirate Ship.

Simply stay in the water, jump to unleash PKT, and repeat. Spam dair if they attempt to engage you in the water. While it's a pretty lame strategy, usually resulting in a time-out, there's no chance of a grab. :D

good marth players will easily adapt to this, out ranging you with fairs, etc

 

[Bartolon]

Most of the time I am using delfino against them. Some parts from that stage aren't that good for ness but I like teh stage against marth.
Never played brinstar in brawl btw XD
Maybe I have to try that one time

 

[Uffe]

Most of the time I am using delfino against them. Some parts from that stage aren't that good for ness but I like teh stage against marth.
Never played brinstar in brawl btw XD
Maybe I have to try that one time

According to that link, Marth's good stage is also Delfino Plaza. We should probably ask each board what stages are good and bad for them.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

When summer rolls around I'll go around collecting data.
I think norfair might be a good CP, jump through panels, and short stage overall.

 

[kennypu]

When summer rolls around I'll go around collecting data.
I think norfair might be a good CP, jump through panels, and short stage overall.

I have a good marth user here who loves norfair. he can spam up be almost anywhere and still able to recover. if people are stupid enough to go in the little box when the lava comes, they can dtilt spam, or just uair spam them from under neath. With all the aerial space, they can easily gimp you as well.

 

[Eagleye893]

For me, the best CP's for CG'ers, including grab release stuff, would be...

TOP:
Norfair
Brinstar
.......
MID:
Delfino
Battlefield (if you avoid the lower part of the stage, but most people can make you pay for doing so)
Corneria? (if you stay away from the bottom right at all costs)
PKMN stadium 2 (a bit of a stretch)
.......
BOTTOM:
FD
Smashville
Castle Siege (especially the second part)
Pokemon Stadium 1
.......

I can't really think of any good stages to CP against someone like marth or DDD though apart from the top 2. Until any more stages come up that we can think of, just go with norfair or brinstar (ha, both metroid stages).

 

[Xebenkeck]

^^^^ never go to BF vs Marth

I still think Brinstar is your best choice. It might help marth a little but it helps ness a lot more. Marth in actuality is a pretty light character, and Brinstar has real small blastzones, killing him isn't a problem. The lava can save you in various ways. Platforms on the left and right really help, Fthrows are devastating on brinstar.

 

[xoxokev]

Lylat!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eagleye893]

Lylat!!!!!!!!!!

no... I played a marth on lylat and I was almost completely unable to get out of the grab release. He was good at that.

 

[xoxokev]

no... I played a marth on lylat and I was almost completely unable to get out of the grab release. He was good at that.

doesn't matter. marth can grab release ness on any stage.

 

[Eagleye893]

doesn't matter. marth can grab release ness on any stage.

yeah... good point. lylat helps with CGs, but i don't know about just helping ness, cause it often messes up my recovery and my mind with all the stuff going on in the background... and pkfire is messed up if you need to use it when your opponent is on higher ground.

 

[xoxokev]

yeah... good point. lylat helps with CGs, but i don't know about just helping ness, cause it often messes up my recovery and my mind with all the stuff going on in the background... and pkfire is messed up if you need to use it when your opponent is on higher ground.

mmm i guess youre right. its not a good stage for ness. but it definitely messes up marth's recovery. if you learn to play on that stage its not so bad

 

[Man of Popsicle]

mmm i guess youre right. its not a good stage for ness. but it definitely messes up marth's recovery. if you learn to play on that stage its not so bad

That's like the only stage I beat you on.
I need to play you again.

 

[NintenJoe]

CP Pirate Ship against Marth:

Advantages:

• Elimination of death grab
• Viable stage for horizontal PK Fire
• Ness' water pressure > Marth's water pressure
• Moderately short sides but a high ceiling, making Bthrow more effective
• Recovery is much easier with the water
• Large stage size and viable HPK Fire allow for camping possibilities

Very good stage for Ness, not so good for Marth.

 

[PsychoNess]

Onett. Thats all I can think of that you didnt say. Quick grab KOs. Uair. Cars stop infinate.

 

[AvariceX]

Stadium 1 is actually good against Marth's pedo-grabs; the stage transformations will often force an air release from his grab.