CPU's Learn?

[Conclusively]

A CPU Falco Laser locked me against a wall on Shadow Moses. >.>

 

[the5souls]

I believe Cromslide is when Snake (and some more) slide crazy distances while charging their upSmash. Please do correct me if I'm wrong...

That is right.
Take a look here if you thing you have never seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvbNohOQ3p8&NR=1

 

[teh_pwns_the]

BTW, what is wingdashing or whatever it's called?

Wingdashing is a pseudo wavedash that can only be done by pit
basically its a spacing tech if you want to know anymore though just go to the pit boards

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

No. I use Snake a lot and the level 9 AI Snake still can't Mortar slide. He learned how to stick C4 to others but he doesn't always detonate when he should and it ends up blowing up after the opponent returns it to Snake. The CPUs don't learn all the time.

 

[Psylark]

Personally, I've never had a CPU learn any of my techniques in Brawl, but I haven't had it for long. In Melee however, I believe that there was no AT - for example, it was well known that if you did a vs. match vs. a lvl 9 ness on Jungle Japes, (And you didn't move) Then the Ness would die in the water. You could do this infinitely, without the Ness learning.

However, in Brawl, I think that the CPU's are a bit more clever, but still follow set patterns depending on what the player(s) are doing.

 

[Lanowen]

You can learn stuff in this game? News to me.

 

[S.D]

I swear blind they learn.

After years of melee the CPU's became ridiculously good, picking up almost every advanced tech. I swear i saw one wavedash.

 

[Duker]

Well, I've done the testing I mentioned, and holy cow... it seems to work. They are very reluctant to taunt, so I instead refocused my training on spamming Falcon PAWNCH.

The problem right now is that I don't know how often the CPUs use it normally without having been tainted, so could someone please set four lvl 9 Capt. Falcons on Final Destination (2min time, no items) a few times and count how many Falcon PAWNCHs they do? Preferably someone that hasn't used CF much at all, or at least not spammed teh PAWNCH.


Though I gotta tell you, it feels magical when three PAWNCHes occur at the same time =)

 

[Peregrinus Falconidae]

I don't think it's too complicated.
If he cpus notice a new move or technique form you, they can add a line to their programming featuring that. This is clever because then ultimately we could get them to play using human techniques.
By the way, has a CPU wolf ever scarred or semi-scarred on you?

 

[Psylark]

4 lvl 9 captain falcons on final destination, 12 Falcon Punches attempted in the match, 1 in the sudden death. Only 5 punches actually hit their opponents, and 1 was used for recovery - (Falied). I've hardly used captain falcon. No items, as asked. It was really surprising. 2 falcon punches actually happened at the same time.

 

[GI Josh]

I've seen CPU's egdehog, and edge hop. They RAR as well, too. But...in Melee a CPU I was fighting L-cancled, and another one wavelanded...

 

[Psylark]

Surely, if you could make CPUs good then you can make them bad as well.

 

[Peregrinus Falconidae]

Yeah. I played Donkey Kong to unlock 75m but played really badly... to this day, he is a very silly CPU...

 

[JJR.O.B.]

yah i did the same thing to unlock 75m. Whenever I face a DK cpu he is horrible

 

[IC3R]

Quick! Everybody do the Gonzo combo against CPUs!!!! Maybe we can get the 'puters to do it!!!

 

[Duker]

W00t, didn't excpect that mucho info , thanks lark.
With me coaching them (not counting my own PAWNCHes of course): 15 PAWNCHes in two matches. Have in mind that it theoreticly should've been 33% more if I hadn't been there.
Without me: 12 in one and 18 in another... though the one with 18 was after I had restarted my Wii.

Inconclusive results, not enough difference to make a statistical statement. Oh well, I'll just continue my research for a few days to see if anything happens, but I'm not so sure aymore.

Research is serious business.

 

[Psylark]

Yes... That's a bit strange. Maybe doing too many PAWNCHes trains them not to do it so often...like anti spamming.

Just for some more info, I use Toon link 60% of the time, and while versing TLs - because I always verse random characters (lvl 7s, I'm not that good) Their techniques and way they fight is significantly different.

 

[Peregrinus Falconidae]

To add to this, when I first started playing Toon Link, I spammed Dair. For a while they did so to, until i became more proficient with Toon Link. They now use projectiles and sword fighting to keep me on my toes. By the way, I now almost only use a down thrown bomb to set up my Dair, and now I SWEAR the CPUs are using it amazingly to get me back.

 

[C.S. Dinah]

Make NO mistake CPUs will edgehog you...
at the very last second anyways.
I know this because it got to the legde first and didn't do anything else until I got KOed
But thats mosty when I try to edgeguard the CPU

 

[Newuser12345215]

There's a thread like this in the brawl tactics, and over there, we're thinking that the CPU might remember your button presses a few seconds before and after you KO someone. We can get the CPUs to crouch taunt...

Yeah, lets uhh, lock this thread(or merge) and continue discussion over in this thread.

At least, it'd make things easier to discuss stuff.

Anyway, this is really interesting.

Too bad they didn't post it on the Dojo or something to explain how it works.

Hmm, maybe someone should get someone(that can get someone) to ask someone that developed Brawl to explain the level 9 comps.


Anyway, so they only copy and do stuff that they copy at level 9? Or is it all levels i ngeneral?

I play mainly against level 7 comps in free for all.

Here's what they do:

1. Edge hog - Wait, so, comps don't normally edge hog? Anyway, half the time when they hit me really far away(AS long as the computer isn't being attacked by someone else at the time), they'd edge hog.

2. Sometimes, they taunt after they KO. Don't all comps normally do this though? How come a few posts were surprised at this?

Also, funny thing, some comps just taunt even though it's a 4 player FFA match, and even if someone is near by.

I never taunt when I KO so I don't know where the comps learn it from.

Well, I'll start paying attention to my comps more, but so does it happen only at level 9 or other levels too?

 

[Greenstreet]

its because it is always logging ur button presses (hence why we have replays)
so really the wii knows EXACTLY what you did. and if it knows that it hurt the cpu heaps then y not try it lol.
maybe they dont reason to that extent lol

 

[ShadowBlitz]

CPU's have been known to wavedash and L-cancel in Melee, whether it was by accident or incedental. There's a good chance that they know something related to the glitch you mentioned.

As for the reverse Falcon Punch, I pretty much learned it FROM the CPU -_-, so they intentionally programmed C. Falcon to do that...

 

[Greenstreet]

any1 actually know the programming behind the game? or has worked on it...
i doubt it

 

[IC3R]

Okay, I see this thread hasn't been getting very far, so allow me to mention this:

My CPU's are starting to RollDodge -> Crouch spam with Kirby--in the middle of the match!!!!!!!







What then?

 

[IShotLazer]

There is a very wide spectrum of HOW they learn. If you're are spamming a move the computer will already have built in programming and fight back accordingly. If they wanted to, computers would be absolutely perfect. Perfect timing, perfect spacing... even without mindgames that is hardly beatable.

 

[IShotLazer]

They aren't "learning" by how we would define the word, just using something else they were programmed to do because what they were doing wasn't working. When something is working it's going to be programmed to keep w/e it is they maybe be doing to keep on doing it.

 

[IC3R]

If that's the case, how do you explain Roll 'n' Crouch spamming in the middle of a match?
The only use it has is pissing the other guy off, as far as I take it...

 

[Pokemon Mystery]

Eh...CPU's learning?WTF?!

 

[N M E]

CPU's don't have progressive AI

 

[MorphedChaos]

I once had a level 9 Dedede computer infinite chaingrab my bowser a good 70% damage, I was so surprised, pissed, and just like "Wow". too bad it only happened once. too bad I can't screenshot it due to the match going on for too long T.T.

Maybe this tells you not to try to infinite chaingrab a bowser computer with a Dedede computer fighting another level 9? I dunno, but still though, wow.

 

[wotamRobin]

I warn you, this post will get a bit involved.

From a programmer's point of view, I don't think it would be that hard to actually make learning AI for this game. Say each character's AI has a list of techniques that they use. When you first turn on the game, the list is mostly empty. But as you play as a certain character more, each time you do something with a "drought" before and after it, there is a chance that it will be recorded into the AI for that character. The chance would be raised or lowered depending on how much damage you inflicted, if you got a KO, if you killed yourself, etc (the game already keeps counters for those things, it wouldn't be that hard).

Then, when a computer is deciding what moves to use against you, it either uses one of the moves it came programmed with or duplicates the button presses/actions of one of the techniques that it has recorded. To keep the difficulties accurate, the higher a computer's level is, the more likely they are to use a recorded technique.

Actually, thinking about it more, each level would have its own list that is recorded into when you're playing against it, and its own conditions for recording a move (e.g. lvl 1's won't record a 50% damage combo since it's too powerful). This would keep you from being able to just play against lvl 1's the whole time and have them become stronger than lvl 9's.

tl;dr Yes, learning AI is easily implementable in this game.

 

[Greenstreet]

thats gr8 to know. so saying a comp is useless for training can be wrong as long as u sit there and purposely get owned by the char u want to get good against. as long as the person they program off is a pro u hav a good chance at a decent result

 

[Kink-Link5]

I trained my Lv. 9 Marth to fair spam in place of Side B in the air.

Training mode with the same characters repeating a basic idea for an hour seems to show drastic change in their style.

Also almost every computer has all but stopped edgehogging all together and tries to edgeguard more than they did initially. I even got Marth to run off the stage with an fair-fair combo. He didn't quite... erm... recover, but he learned from my fair teachings how to tipper too well.

You can teach pikachu to QAC, as well as alter which moves a character AI does more often than others. For example, I've gotten MK to replace nair with Uair (as a test of this idea), and even gotten him to Uair~~~Up-B me off the top of the stage, then finish the Up-B not by falling down, but rather, Diving at the stage and Glair canceling.

Each move takes like an hour of spamming before they start utilizing it more.

 

[xgina]

i got my computer characters to repeatedly duck when they got a kill. doesn't happen much, but it makes me laugh when it does.

 

[TheTomNookster]

I agree with wotamRobin, the AI is probably programmed to learn. I also want to add something; Is it confirmed that Lvl. 9 CPU's get progressively aggressive each time you kill them? It appears so, but it could just be me.

 

[Viny]

A Lv 9 Link edgeguard me but to early and link use the z-air trick to get invicible to edgeguard me O.o or a Lv 9 DDD chaingrab me or a lv 9 IC chain grab me and desynch like me or lv.9 zelda play like me but really like me ¬¬

 

[Tommy_G]

I had a computer ledge guard me with Ike as Falco(I was Falco). After the ledge guard he dropped down, footstooled me, and jumped back to the ledge. I was already dead. There was no reason for the computer to do that. That's something I do all of the time.

Sometimes there are situations where I think computers learn things too.

 

[Viny]

i just got the proof! after 1hour of Marth ditto Vs a lv 9 cpu! all the time i kill it i do dashdance instead of taunt and he just dash dance after he kill me!!! next step i spam the chain grab

 

[SuperNofriendo]

This has happend to me several times.



I'll be killed by the CPU and he'll crouch dance or he'll be far away from me and crouch dance. (crouch dancing is rappidly pressing down on the control stick) And it's not just per round either. I'll go into a match with out me crouching once and they'll ocassionally crouch dance after they kill me or whenever.

 

[PMKNG]

This has happened to me recently. I used to hardly ever using pkt2 with ness, and the cpu ness never used it either.

I began using it about a month ago, and now ness cpus use it against me, or well, try.


And Cpus do seem to get more aggressive with each loss of a stock for me.