Creating our Guide - ATs

[Capt. Olimar]

Alright, as I've mentioned, I'm working on a new guide for the Olimar community, mostly geared towards newer members, and those looking for specific information. I plan for this guide to contain every single aspect that's important for our game, sans matchups and stage discussion.

While the guide will be written by myself, I'm going to, for most sections, leave it all open for discussion among the Olimar Boards, so that I'll be able to get input from everyone. Everyone will have a voice in the creation of the guide. Every once in awhile I'll open up discussion for one or more topics, sections that will make up the guide.

For example, our first topic is going to be Olimar's whistle. The main three things we're going to cover for Olimar's whistle are

• Super Armor
• Pikmin Management
• Wave Bouncing

If there's another topic of the whistle that we should discuss, let me know. But I'd like to cover each of these in depth. Since whistle is such a broad topic, this will be the only part that we'll discuss right now. Other times, though, we'll sometimes discuss two or three topics at once.

Alright, let's get this started!

 

[-DR3W-]

I didn't know you were a Super Mod here, Hilt. This is a great idea and very well organized.

Do this for our [Falco] board. <3

 

[RichBrown]

I hella discovered whistle bouncing for Olimar and paved the way for its uses

Well, iirc whistle is a 20 frame move, with invincibility lasting from 2-16. This makes recovering MUCH easier and can give us an opportunity to easily counter many attacks because it's so quick. Lately, a trick I'll use for landing is right before I'm about to hit the ground, if I feel I'm going to get punished upon landing I'll double jump and whistle bounce in the other direction. Use it sparingly though, because if you just whistle bounce back and forth mindlessly your opponent can just sit there and wait for you to land. It's usually best to wait and see if your opponent is committed to following you or not. After a handful of whistle bounces, they might try to predict one of them, allowing you to just float freely back to the ground (basic conditioning).

You can whistle bananas and they will bounce off you

Whistling multi-hit electric attacks makes you freeze in the whistle

When you whistle-nair, the nair actually starts before the rainbow animation around Olimar ends, so whistle-nairing is effective, particularly when landing or when you're on the ledge and you drop-doublejump-whistle-nair (don't overuse the last one though because it's easy for opponents to catch on).

Sometimes when you're at high percent it's fun to troll the heck out of your opponent and just run around whistling like a mad man. It will get them frustrated, and they will start rushing you more because they think you are being defensive, or they might try to grab you. Be ready for both of these reactions and punish accordingly.

While whistle is awesome, be willing to explore other defensive options when you're at low percent. You still take damage while whistling, so don't use whistle as a first resort every single time.

If I think of anything else I'll post it.

 

[Slain Avenger]

I'd like to see some more exact info on whistle bouncing, since I don't quite understand it yet, and I think it could be doubtful for new Oli players to catch on to it. Also, I think pushing the usefulness of whistle-nair is a full out priority, I incorporated it into my game recently and it helps way to much. Of course, it shouldn't be overused, like Rich said, saving that secret weapon is good stuff.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

In order to whistle bounce you start a whistle and roll the control stick towards the opposite direction fast. You'll have to do it fast enough to where the control stick is facing the opposite direction before the actual sound of the whistle happens.

I've posted this before, but something that I really, really like with whistle bounces. What I'll do is run at my opponent when I predict that they're going to shield my approach, jump and immediately whistle bounce. They have two options at this point. Most people from my experience will drop their shield and try to punish the whistle, chasing you. Immediately after the whistle I'll throw out a bair, spacing it perfectly against their shield. This way if it hits their shield, I'm safe and they can't punish it. And if they don't sit in their shield, I'm too far from them for them to hit me without eating a back air. It's a great fake out that I've been using for a good while that I haven't seen any other Olimars use. I'll also do it with bounced pikmin tosses, but not as often.

Also hey DR3W :D
Didn't know you got on smashboards, lol

 

[Slain Avenger]

Wait, a whistle bounce makes you change the direction your facing O.o?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

That's what wave bouncing does... lol

 

[Asa]

there's also a couple useful situations where you can use whistle to counter your opoponent's combos


good examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpEjIqNZO-A#t=4m25s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5_gRyJoUq4#t=1m55sec

 

[Noa.]

Super Armor
Pikmin Management
Wave Bouncing

Olimar's whistle is a basic tool that is absolutely necessary in playing a good Olimar.

super armor - the whistle gives 14 frames of super armor which allows you to receive no knockback yet you still receive damage. At lower percents, therefore, it's advised not to use the whistle as often as you would at higher percents. The whistle is very effective for countering moves with lag. While recovering whistling is an absolutely essential tool in not getting gimped. Often when you double jump offstage it is a good idea to double jump while whistling. It can nullify your opponent's edgeguarding attempts and you can counterattack them by following up with a fair afterward. Also remember that you can be grabbed during the whistle so it is important to remain unpredictable with it. Jumping while whistling opens up more opportunities since it allows you to either retreat safely or approach with it. Approaching with whistle usually involves super armoring an opponent's attack and then following up with an attack of your own.

pikmin management - When you whistle, all pikmin return to your line in this order; red, blue, yellow, white, purple. Everytime you whistle the order of the pikmin changes by moving forward by one. i.e., the first time you whistle the order will be red, blue, yellow, white, purple; the second time you whistle the order will be blue, yellow, white, purple, red; the third time yellow, white, purple, red, blue etc.

Watching your line is a necessity, and whistling can facilitate that by organizing the pikmin by color. The whistle can also allow you to summon a desired color to the front of your line to be used. A good example of this is when Oli is sent flying offstage. After momentum canceling it would be wise to whistle all your pikmin to you, and then specifically purples to the front (this is because purple toss is a great recovering tool).

Wave bouncing seems to have been covered so whatev.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'll probably focus a section on how management works, since it's a bit difficult to understand for newer players. Perhaps a visual aid to help understand it. Nice write-up though, Noa. I'll probably use it as a skeleton, but I'd like to go more indepth, definitely. I'll post a full write-up of what I want the whistle section to look like when I've had some sleep, and give more players a chance to post more stuff, and after that we'll move onto another section(s).

Also, it's 15 frames of super armor X:

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

Whistle Whistle Whistle Whistle rockin ery where, Whistle Whistle Whistle Whistle rockin ery where, rockin ery where, I found you miss new whistle, get together and superframe missiles, join an online ladder and practice for bout a month or two, use it at tournament then see what it do, use it right, get hit dont die, use it right, get hit dont die, Whistle Whistle Whistle Whistle rockin ery where rocking ery where.

 

[PSI.kick]

Recovering with whistle is definitely a necessity. Some good ways to do this:
When you've finished your momentum canceling aerial (uair) you'll want to save your jump, that way if they are edge guarding, you aren't screwed. so fast fall and go towards the stage, when they attack you should jump and whistle for the super armor. It's all about timing. I'd say the only real ways to practice this is to try it out in some friendlies. It's essential to not getting gimped. You all know this but I thought I'd just explain it for the new peops.

This question relates to this topic so ill just ask it here,
How many frames of invincibility does our air dodge have, because it may make the difference if whistle has more/less frames than it especially at lower percents.
Whistling isn't always the best thing to do at low percents, the only time you'll really want to is for recovering from whatever stupidity got you off the edge. That's a different topic though.
I think we should have some discussion over whistle vs. air dodge when we get the chance.

And why does it make a difference whether you whistle bounce or regular whistle? It changes momentum and direction i know, but a lot of that stuff you guys were talking about i do without bouncing it all the time.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

The fact that it changes your direction and momentum allows for fake outs when being juggled and when approaching. It gives you a way to trick your opponent. Regular whistle doesn't do that. I don't know what you're talking about.

Air dodge is a 39 frame move and has invincibility frames 2 through 30 (29 frames of invincibility).

 

[Tin Man]

Sometimes when you're at high percent it's fun to troll the heck out of your opponent and just run around whistling like a mad man. It will get them frustrated, and they will start rushing you more because they think you are being defensive, or they might try to grab you. Be ready for both of these reactions and punish accordingly.

Imma try this

Pikmin Management

pikmin management - When you whistle, all pikmin return to your line in this order; red, blue, yellow, white, purple. Everytime you whistle the order of the pikmin changes by moving forward by one. i.e., the first time you whistle the order will be red, blue, yellow, white, purple; the second time you whistle the order will be blue, yellow, white, purple, red; the third time yellow, white, purple, red, blue etc.

This is wrong bro. The pikmin line up goes in order of:

Red-Yellow-Blue-White-Purple

 

[Jane]

lol, second time noa gets the order wrong, with different pikmin

Spoiler

<3

Spoiler

i'll be productive later ;D

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright, it's time we switched up the topic. If someone would like to touch on something involving whistle, that's fine as well. For now though, I'd like to hear what people would like to discuss next out of this list. Keep in mind that for move analysis, we would cover each attack individually. We could do them one at a time or a couple together. Either way.

Opinions on what we should discuss?

 

[Slain Avenger]

I think covering the basics is a good place to start, so...

since we already covered whistle, it should be something along the lines of pikmin organization and each individual pikmin's particular use.

Either that or Olimar's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Pikmin organization? That isn't basic at all.

 

[Slain Avenger]

I know xD but hey, it goes with whistle and I like to consider it fundamental knowledge on how to be a good Olimar.

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

You aint basic son

 

[PSI.kick]

I think we should discuss each of our different moves and give a basic summary of them all and also putting some of the frame data for them (when they come out, when they finish, how long their hitbox lasts). After that we should discuss times and situations when you should use olimar's attacks and later what different pikmin do to different attacks (damage %, hitstun, etc).
We could probably break it up and discuss each move individually, and then when the guide is made we should put all of it together in one section, i'm thinkin something like this:

Moveset
usmash (or whatever move)
(picture of hitbox and/or description of hitbox)
frame data
% damage (each pikmin) max/min
what the move does/when to use it

and we could do that for each of his moves including specials, but mainly this stuff is basic, no AT's except for the ones that are really necessary.

 

[Blissard]

^That's under move analysis, lol.

Hilt can we do Combos and Strings? I feel like I'm giving up alot of free damage cause sometimes I don't know which 0% grab combos will work on which characters.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

That's not a bad idea at all, Blissard. I like it. Anyone else?

 

[Jane]

im down. low percent combo strings are pivotal (h)

 

[Slain Avenger]

Would be useful, I'm up for it.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

It would be really simple and quick too. Unless someone else wants something different, I'll start it up soon and probably throw out a post.

 

[Colonel_Panic]

Remember to add to the Whistle guide that you can whistle *during* attacks like for the Nado's last hit.

That may fall under what you'd call "Match Dependent", but I think it's important to note that SDI and Whistle can mess up most characters' tempos.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, whistling to get out of combos and some multi-hit attacks wil be mentioned. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Tin Man]

I guess the combo portion will be whats done next, but for the record, I woulda voted on

-Why choose Olimar?

 

[PSI.kick]

someone gonna make that soon? (just wonderin.)

I should be more active now that school is over.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright, second topic of discussion is "Combos and Strings". Have at it. Gotta make sure we hit every part of the topic, too.

 

[Slain Avenger]

Could someone elaborate on grab combo's, percentages and vulnerable characters? I think we can get very productive with that.

 

[eschemat]

Dthrow to fair, usmash and possibly uair?

Low percents of course.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

At low percents, dthrow (only red/yellow/blue/white) will combo into fair or usmash. Or Nair, I suppose. If you follow up the dthrow with a fair, you can sometimes land a regrab on some opponents, leading to another fair or usmash from the dthrow. After an usmash, you can land an uair sometimes, which is more reliable. On top of that, you're still grounded, which is better for juggling after the usmash, if you don't go for the uthrow. So I think dthrow -> usmash is the over all best option. If the opponent has some percents on them, but still enough to combo, dthrow -> purple pikmin toss -> fair is legit, but I don't know the exact situations/percents that it works.

White usmash at low percents (about 8% and lower) combos into about anything you want. Yellow does to but only if it was the move you killed your opponent with last stock and it's the first move you hit them with on their next stock.

Dthrow -> dthrow is only a combo on Fox and Wolf. It's a legitimate string on some characters (Snakes often won't jump after a dthrow, so it'll often work on them), but it isn't a combo on anyone else.

Purple dthrow does not combo into anything. Don't try, lol. Neither does uthrow.

Spinny thing to up smash combo.

Uair if the last hit doesn't connect will sometimes string into nair. You have to push above the opponent and they'll have enough hitstun to where it'll be too difficult for them to get away. Dthrow -> Up Smash -> Incomplete Up Air -> Incomplete Nair -> Up Smash -> Up Air is a favorite of mine. Not going to put a whole lot of emphasis on this in the guide, though.

After a purple pikmin toss, landing a grab afterwards is incredibly easy, the way it knocks the opponent off balance.

Other people can talk now.

Edit: Going to list what characters you shouldn't try to use either fair or usmash on out of a dthrow. Most of these will be because of either weight, fast aerials/specials, or a combination of the two. Anyone not mentioned you can do usmash or fair on, but anything listed is, imo, what you should definitely do on these characters.

Falco: Fair can be difficult to land if the Falco DIs right. Which doesn't matter, because landing the uair after an usmash is easier than it is on most characters, because of how fast he falls. Go for usmash on Falco.
Marth: Marth can often Dolphin Slash if he predicts you're going to usmash. He can't do this if he's at really low percents, but if he's at, say, 10% (which is still usually combo percents), if you aren't spot on in the dthrow -> usmash, he can oftentimes break the combo. Dthrow -> Fair is recommended.
GW: His Floatiness makes dthrow -> usmash a tad difficult to land, but nothing impossible. Go for it if you'd like, but Dthrow -> Fair is a lot more guaranteed.
Lucario: Do not try to Dthrow -> Usmash him! A combination of his floatiness and frame 4 dair that completely out prioritizes our usmash makes it almost never land. Dthrow -> Fair, on the other hand, is extremely easy to land.
Toon Link: I prefer Fair after a dthrow because there's no chance of his Nair getting in the way, lol. However usmash isn't extremely hard to land, in all honesty.
Kirby: Use Fair. Floatiness reason.
Fox: Dthrow -> Dthrow -> Dthrow -> ____. One of the few characters that dthrow is a legit combo on. Your second and third dthrows can't be reds, though, or it won't work. The combo ends with those if they are.
Rob: I prefer Usmash because of the horrible situation it puts rob in (above us).
Peach: Fair because of her floatiness and dair which puts a halt to usmash.
Luigi: Same as above but replace dair with nair. Use fair against luigi and space it perfectly. Don't try a followup after the fair.
Wolf: Same as fox.
Sheik: A character I think dthrow -> dthrow is a legit combo on, but possibly only with certain colors. Going to do more testing. Also, I prefer fair against Sheik, putting her above us isn't a huge benefit.
Sonic: Fair if he's not at extremely low percents. If he has a few percents on him he can spring away.
Ike: Same as above but replace spring with... Nair <__< followed by jab followed by more jabs.
Yoshi: Fair. Exact same reasons as Luigi.

 

[Blissard]

Edit

Lol your edit was exactly the info I needed <3 I was going through your post highlighting all of the "sometimes" you put into the first paragraph, but then I saw the edit...

Dthrow > Fsmash had its uses somewhere. Probably if they DI away from Dthrow.

Dtilt > Dtilt > Situational Dsmash works at middle percentages on occasion.

I've been trying Dthrow > Uair lately if I knew that the opponent would immediately jump after I Dthrow them.

Tether can be incorporated into alot of combos. I think that Vocal made a thread about it sometime back.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Oh right, I forgot about dthrow -> fsmash. It's okay.

Dtilt does not combo into anything lol. Regardless of what Zori will cause you to believe (<3 Zori). But seriously, its hitstun is so bad lmao. But against some characters, that are put into such an awful position at low percents, such as Falco. But it's usually because the opponent is bad, lol. But it's not a combo and it's a bad string.

Tether can not be incorporated into a lot of combos. It can be incorporated into strings, though.

 

[Jane]

it wont "truly" combo into anything, but at mid percents it pops them into the perfect spot to be read and punished. forealz.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Against people that are bad, yeah.

 

[Jane]

why? they can only do one of three things- airdodge, double jump, or throw out an attack, all of which can be punished fairly easily. and if you dont get them with an upair or whatever, you're still safe

 

[DtJ Hilt]

But with as laggy as dtilt is, you won't have the time to chase them if they double jump, and you're free to get hit. You don't get just how little hitstun dtilt has

Don't get me wrong, Dtilt isn't a bad move, but using it to combo or string is rarely a good idea, haha.