Creation of BBR Ruleset Committee; Brawl Nationals Agree to Same Stagelist! New TO's!

[clowsui]

ook did well at a local two weeks ago xP but yeah i agree, will/dr.grandpa/cable are more impressive on the whole

 

[san.]

Don't think I'm hating on Ook or anything. I just don't know of any large tournaments where I heard hype from him since the MLG.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just to be curious... Do the TOs in the BBRRC consider Pictochat to be a "reasonable amount of randomness"?

 

[WindMajor]

Well if it's in their stage list, it must be an acceptable amount of randomness for competitive play.

 

[Raziek]

IMO, it's more like "an acceptable tolerance to gain a CP vs. MK."

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm with Raz on this one. After seeing some of the things that can happen on this stage, I can't imagine its degree of randomness being remotely excusable, and would place it on a similar level to Warioware.

 

[Reizilla]

Pictochat is definitely the worst legal stage. Worse than Japes and Norfair actually...

 

[MK26]

Pictochat is definitely the worst legal stage. Worse than Japes and Norfair actually...

easily

i hate playing on japes, but its fine competitively
picto on the other hand is just trash

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm tired of debating Picto....
Specially when I'm pretty much the only one suporting it (I even consider it a starter).
Also, there's a lot of **** happening over here so I can't think clearly.

Ban it if everybody (read: everybody in Stage Boards, which are people that always shows backups and evidence that they know they're talking about) agrees, I do not give a **** now....

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Basically...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXg3C9mhTkw&t=1m45s
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU STILL SUPPORT THE STAGE TO BE LEGAL?

Gimps like that are not that uncommon!

 

[ぱみゅ]

It was his fault, not stage's. Yes, he would've hitted by that Fsmash, but that's because of character's lineal/sucky recovery (I'm sure it would've been much worse in Orpheon).

But again, I don't give a **** now.

 

[Yikarur]

It was his fault, not stage's. Yes, he would've hitted by that Fsmash, but that's because of character's lineal/sucky recovery (I'm sure it would've been much worse in Orpheon).

But again, I don't give a **** now.

Yeah clearly the players fault, he could've recovered high and because of the line that appeared (he obviously knew that this can happen!!!) he had recovered safely!

 

[ぱみゅ]

He didn't knew, he can't predict, but he can gamble for that to happen.
It was player's fault because he should knew line hadn't appeared yet and it might've spawned (and that's what happened).
I'm pretty sure Lou knew that and expected him to recover onstage with Fsmash, and he probably was avoiding the ledge until then (I'm not gonna watch it back).

But whow knows, probably stage randomly decided to be mean with Falco and kill him just because he was there.

 

[DMG]

If it's gambling, it's off the line of skillfully using the stage to your advantage basically. It's one thing to be forced to take risks because of the stage terrain changing in a slower, predicted pace (RC forces you to move upwards and to the right when it scrolls. This means a lot of characters have to take risks jumping over to get there safely. However, Pictochat you're forced to take risks you can't reasonably expect to cover. It would be like having to jump over the gap on RC, but not knowing what formation would randomly spawn there or what areas would be safe to aim for. One instance, the boat appears and everything is fine. The next, a sole red carpet appears that you happen to overshoot with no warning. After that, the big "block" but without platforms around it. etc) But when you're forced to take gambles or risks that you can't even come close to accurately predicting beforehand besides general things like "It will show up once" and "every x seconds or so something will take place", then it starts to look very questionable.

If Pictochat had any kind of recognizeable pattern or flow to it, like I said besides the general guidelines, you could probably legalize it because it would be more like Delfino at that point. But having no discernible pattern, with hazards and objects that frankly have shown to be more than capable of getting in the way significantly, does not add up to a pretty picture.

 

[Raziek]

My opinion on Picto tends to change a lot.

It shouldn't EVER be legal unless Japes, Norfair, Distant Planet, etc. are also legal.

It makes no sense to include a stage like that but not include ones that are apparently just "gay".

I'm pretty sure I can argue beyond a shadow of a doubt that Norfair is less random than Picto.

All this said, I still don't think Picto is OMGWTF bad, but it's a testament to what Brawl players will put up with to keep MK legal.

 

[san.]

I'd rather have all those stages, even Pirate Ship than Picto. Everything considered bad about Pirate Ship has been refuted over and over again.

Picto's around as bad as.. like Summit, although I'm probably giving Picto too much credit..

 

[Steam]

I don't know why but I feel like the wind on pictochat changes everything the most...

No reason for Picto to legal really...

I think Japes is way too imbalanced of a stage to be legal on a ruleset with one stage ban... some characters just can't really approach other characters on japes if they camp on the side or middle platforms.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Great, the power goes completley to the TO's. Extremely fair

Yea. Darn those people who run tournament making rules for their tournaments.

---

As for release date:

We are getting very, very close to release. Working on one or two last rules then it will be out. Probably AFTER April 1st because if it comes within a day or two of April 1st everyone will think "April fools!" regardless of how legit things are.

Planking/Ledge-stalling/whatever you want to call it is much more easily beaten in Melee than Brawl, not sure what you're trying to say >.> It can be stopped, except for some where your opponent needs to be frame perfect. But it's impossible for a human to do that for very long anyway (think IDC difficulty x100 or something), so it doesn't matter.

IIRC, according to M2K, Sheik can invinci-Up-B plank the edge in Melee with something like 9 frames of leeway and it cannot be interrupted. I do not know if he is correct or not and that is a statement from him roughly two years ago, but the point is even if he is wrong it would be very close to what MK can do. I guess the difference is Melee players have more honor? Shrug.

This directly applies to the argument that we need to ban MK in an attempt to save the Smash community. Directly applies. It didn't work.

Brawl is not dying. Go look at Rajam's rankings, which omits a good 10-20% of tournaments because they do not provide brackets. 530 tournaments, 5,100 UNIQUE! players, in a little over a year. A national almost any month. Most fighting games would kill to be Brawl. Don't equate people whining all over Smashboards (which at any time still has 600-800 people online) as the game dying. Please educate yourself before you speak.

---

As for Planking/LGLs/whatever: there is no good solution for this stuff. Go ahead and post yours and I guarantee there will be several people who disagree. Before you can even begin to make rules as part of this project you have to accept that, simply put, whether you think you are right or wrong about something you will have to compromise. Everyone for some reason believes their way, and only their way, is the right way to do things. Well guess what? Not a single person will agree with 100% of your rules.

Also guess what: easily 9/10 tournaments that have occurred in the last year and a half have had an LGL on (of some variety or another). I wonder what that means the BBR-RC will do considering it is made up of actual TO's instead of theorists?

---

Regarding WHOBO rules: Xyro had the announced stages we agreed on. Nothing else was announced so he was in compliance. Once there is an official version 1.0 of the BBR-RC ruleset then there will be a lot less variation in the stickies.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If it's gambling, it's off the line of skillfully using the stage to your advantage basically.
It's one thing to be forced to take risks because of the stage terrain changing in a slower, predicted pace (RC forces you to move upwards and to the right when it scrolls. This means a lot of characters have to take risks jumping over to get there safely. However, Pictochat you're forced to take risks you can't reasonably expect to cover. It would be like having to jump over the gap on RC, but not knowing what formation would randomly spawn there or what areas would be safe to aim for. One instance, the boat appears and everything is fine. The next, a sole red carpet appears that you happen to overshoot with no warning. After that, the big "block" but without platforms around it. etc) But when you're forced to take gambles or risks that you can't even come close to accurately predicting beforehand besides general things like "It will show up once" and "every x seconds or so something will take place", then it starts to look very questionable.

Who said is in order to take it for your advantage?
You're pretty muchforced to gamble for few instants when stage is blank and you're sent out of the safety zone AND you can't return safely to it. Basically, conditions to stuff "screwing things up" are really specific.
I do not deny they happen, it's about odds anyways, but when both players knows what they're doing, it only hits because opponents difficult avoiding stage changes.

My opinion on Picto tends to change a lot.

It shouldn't EVER be legal unless Japes, Norfair, Distant Planet, etc. are also legal.

It makes no sense to include a stage like that but not include ones that are apparently just "gay".

I'm pretty sure I can argue beyond a shadow of a doubt that Norfair is less random than Picto.

All this said, I still don't think Picto is OMGWTF bad, but it's a testament to what Brawl players will put up with to keep MK legal.

I consider all of them legal lol
And as much as it limits MK and helps other characters, it's not the main reason I'd have it legal....

I'd rather have all those stages, even Pirate Ship than Picto. Everything considered bad about Pirate Ship has been refuted over and over again.

Picto's around as bad as.. like Summit, although I'm probably giving Picto too much credit..

And that's why I'm not arguing.... Summit is bad because of Cirle Camping.
Do you really compare power of situational randomness with the power of Circle Camping?

I don't know why but I feel like the wind on pictochat changes everything the most...

No reason for Picto to legal really...

I think Japes is way too imbalanced of a stage to be legal on a ruleset with one stage ban... some characters just can't really approach other characters on japes if they camp on the side or middle platforms.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Alpha, what in your opinion would cross stages off like Norfair, Japes and etc.

Do you think maybe for the gray areas justification can help with the stage list?

 

[Tesh]

It was his fault, not stage's. Yes, he would've hitted by that Fsmash, but that's because of character's lineal/sucky recovery (I'm sure it would've been much worse in Orpheon).

But again, I don't give a **** now.

Yeah clearly the players fault, he could've recovered high and because of the line that appeared (he obviously knew that this can happen!!!) he had recovered safely!

He didn't knew, he can't predict, but he can gamble for that to happen.
It was player's fault because he should knew line hadn't appeared yet and it might've spawned (and that's what happened).
I'm pretty sure Lou knew that and expected him to recover onstage with Fsmash, and he probably was avoiding the ledge until then (I'm not gonna watch it back).

But whow knows, probably stage randomly decided to be mean with Falco and kill him just because he was there.

So you DO understand!?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Alpha, what in your opinion would cross stages off like Norfair, Japes and etc.

Do you think maybe for the gray areas justification can help with the stage list?

Personally I like both of those stages, but other TO's don't. The art of compromise is giving up or giving something in exchange to reach a middle ground. To be frank, my personal stagelist would probably have 20 stages, but that puts me as an outlier. Just as having 12 stages puts those TO's as an outlier. Regardless of my personal beliefs on stages, I view having a universal ruleset as the utmost priority and I will give up my own beliefs to reach this goal. Not only that, but as I mentioned earlier there is not a single ruleset in existence that 100% of people will agree on, so the only solution to that is understanding there is no right ruleset but instead the ability to work with other TOs to reach a middle ground and create something that is a give and take. Literally every single individual that attempts to create their own ruleset will be wrong in some way.

I'm sure the version 1.0 of the BBR-RC ruleset will have flaws, as will the version 100.0 of the ruleset. There will always be people who disagree based on their personal principles, but those same people are also incapable of ever learning to see the other side of an arguement-they are unyielding in their endeavor to be supremely right. An endeavor that is both fruitless and useless as it does not at all promote the continuity of the community NOR does it respond to the evolution of the game or the opinion of players who week in and week out attend tournaments. The BBR-RC will be responsive to issues as they occur, rules can and will change, and while many on the committee probably have their own ideals they will attempt to push, from what I have seen all on the committee are at least willing to compromise.

There is no absolute truth when it comes to creating a Brawl ruleset. No one is really completely right, and the only people who are completely wrong are the ones that believe only their way of making rules is the correct way.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Personally I like both of those stages, but other TO's don't. The art of compromise is giving up or giving something in exchange to reach a middle ground. To be frank, my personal stagelist would probably have 20 stages, but that puts me as an outlier. Just as having 12 stages puts those TO's as an outlier. Regardless of my personal beliefs on stages, I view having a universal ruleset as the utmost priority and I will give up my own beliefs to reach this goal. Not only that, but as I mentioned earlier there is not a single ruleset in existence that 100% of people will agree on, so the only solution to that is understanding there is no right ruleset but instead the ability to work with other TOs to reach a middle ground and create something that is a give and take. Literally every single individual that attempts to create their own ruleset will be wrong in some way.

I'm sure the version 1.0 of the BBR-RC ruleset will have flaws, as will the version 100.0 of the ruleset. There will always be people who disagree based on their personal principles, but those same people are also incapable of ever learning to see the other side of an arguement-they are unyielding in their endeavor to be supremely right. An endeavor that is both fruitless and useless as it does not at all promote the continuity of the community NOR does it respond to the evolution of the game or the opinion of players who week in and week out attend tournaments. The BBR-RC will be responsive to issues as they occur, rules can and will change, and while many on the committee probably have their own ideals they will attempt to push, from what I have seen all on the committee are at least willing to compromise.

There is no absolute truth when it comes to creating a Brawl ruleset. No one is really completely right, and the only people who are completely wrong are the ones that believe only their way of making rules is the correct way.

I respect this and agree with it.

Thank you.

 

[BSP]

AZ failed to mention anything about picto....does the BRC even pay attention to this thread?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Have you guys considered retooling the stagelist a little now that Alex is gone? You could probably squeeze in a few more stages... And ffs, drop pictochat. Seriously, that stage will kill international attendance. When it was suggested over in GSB, people were (IMO accurately) comparing it to warioware and laughing at it. It is NOT A GOOD STAGE FOR COMPETITION.

 

[san.]

Is it legal on Pictochat if you're completely untouchable on certain transformations, even if the time is running out?

And that's why I'm not arguing.... Summit is bad because of Cirle Camping.
Do you really compare power of situational randomness with the power of Circle Camping?

The notion of circle camping I completely forgot about. Even so, Picto can interfere with a match to great lengths.

 

[Browny]

And ffs, drop pictochat. Seriously, that stage will kill international attendance.

Prove it lololo

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Prove it lololo

I'll ask around on GSB. >.>

 

[Yikarur]

that's not a prove lolol germany

 

[AlphaZealot]

And ffs, drop pictochat. Seriously, that stage will kill international attendance.

Aside from Apex there are...well not really any tournaments that are striving to get international attendance. More over a ruleset should not be created just to satisfy the attendance of <5-10 players, and even then if ONE stage is going to be the make or break deal for those players then they are incredibly petty. I've personally never met anyone in the Smash community in the last 8 years who would not go to a tournament because a single stage. I'm sure those people will claim to exist on the boards, but they likely never had any real intention of going to X tournament anyways.

As mentioned in the OP, this ruleset is not meant for international competition because simply put the philosophy's between countries varies to widely for there ever to be a satisfactory middle ground.

As for Picto, I personally love the stage. Have the hazards been annoying here or there? Yes. However the hazards aren't any more random, then, say, Waddle Dees vs Gordo's effecting matches or Peach pulling out a Bomb instead of a turnip. I view it to be minor, and if you know the stage it is very hard to get screwed by the transformations UNLESS you are already getting your butt kicked by the opponent. The next time you get hit by a hazard ask yourself: "Did my opponent just recently win an exchange". If the answer is yes than you deserve whatever punishment you get. Picto was also a very, very popular and well received counter pick stage during MLG last year. Further, myself, Xyro, Keitaro, and I think (not 100% positive) ESAM/Inferno (in addition to the rules for Pound) already had Picto legal. It was a minority of hosts that had the stage banned when looking at the scope of the entire US.

 

[Pierce7d]

I have refused to go to local tournaments because of a stage, and people have refused to come tournament my friend hosted because he banned Rainbow Cruise.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Well, Pierce, you are being petty.

I'm curious though, what stage was it and what specific tournament? IIRC you went to some KTAR's and those had Picto legal.

 

[Raziek]

However the hazards aren't any more random, then, say, Waddle Dees vs Gordo's effecting matches or Peach pulling out a Bomb instead of a turnip.

While most of your post is fairly true, this is kind of false. Picto hands out free damage EVERY match.

At the very least, this stage could easily be used to illustrate a huge discrepancy between the inclusion of Pictochat and exclusion of Norfair, when one is significantly less broken than the other. (Hint: Norfair is less broken.)

AZ, if I was to write an extremely comprehensive guide on how to predict and avoid Norfair, would you bring it up for serious, educated discussion within the group?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Here is the thing: I like Norfair. Some of us like it, some of us don't, once the version 1.0 of the ruleset is released then we can once again look at stages. At this point in time we have the stagelist completed.

 

[Pierce7d]

Call it what you want AZ, but stages like Pirate Ship (where people are actually willing to go in the water and swim around for 7 minutes to try and win), Picto (which I had come to forgive, though I now regret it, especially since it's becoming more and more mainstream for some reason), and other random stuff like Mansion, PS2 (not THAT bad), Norfair (LOLOL, you already know what I have to say about Norfair), I'll just pass. Also, I would often attend tournaments, and simply not enter if the rules weren't to my own preference. If I'm petty for exercising my right to play the game how I want to play it, then I guess I'm petty. Sounds to me like you're saying, "LOL, you don't wanna play our way? Noob."

*shrugs*

Also, I feel it's worth saying that despite my own conservative preferences, I don't think Rainbow Cruise is necessarily a broken stage as far as things go, but it was being used exclusively for the purpose of, "LOL, I'm MK, time to autowin" or, LOL we're both using our mains game one and two, but you scared me a bit game two so time to just force a ditto on Cruise and auto win. Since this tactic was extremely popular and successful in 09, and early 10, it was annoying. Fortunately, it has begun to die out, since I was tired of every noob and their mom making me ditto R3 regardless of main (unless they were just not comparable at all, resulting in me staying Marth)

 

[etecoon]

Well, Pierce, you are being petty.

yeah pierce, not wanting to pay $25+ and wasting an entire day to go and potentially be gayed over by stages that never should have been legal is PETTY

half of me is just starting to entertain the possibility that AZ is the greatest troll this site has ever seen, there's no way anyone can say some of this stuff with a straight face

 

[Yikarur]

AZ is is not the randomness that makes Pictochat bad, Randomness that can take stocks and have no way to predict and react to it are bad and that is what makes Pictochat what it is. Gordo, Peach Bombs etc can all be reacted to.
Your way or argument is really bad "and if you know the stage it is very hard to get screwed by the transformations UNLESS you are already getting your butt kicked by the opponent."

this is an ideal though and doesn't reflect the reality. Do you really think "being forced to recover" is "getting your butt kicked by the opponent" ? or getting hit and fly into a hazard that just spawns at that moment? Getting hit into an spawn hazard is always an undeserved random reward and lead the match to an different non-influencable outcome because the randomness favored one player.

Imagine getting fthrown by Diddy and suddenly the spikes at the sides appear. +30% and you can follow-up and combo the opponent.
If the spikes didn't appear the opponent were just in a normal position and everything could've been possible because it's not a getting ***** position.

Pictochat just gives unreasonable non-predictable advantages with possibly very high reward that would not have occured if the random numbers the game calculates were different. This is NOT REASONABLE for competitive play where the "best" player is going to be decided.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I guess I just come from a time when we went to tournaments regardless of what the rules were. 1 stage should not be making or breaking a decision to attend a tournament - because chances are there isn't going to anyone who agrees with 100% of the rules of the tournament they are attending, so if everyone took that attitude then no one would be attending tournaments.

However, more to the point, if a stage being on is your reason for not attending a tournament, that same stage being off could in turn be someone else's reason for not attending a tournament.

Pierce: I'm still wondering what tournament it was and what stage.

Pictochat just gives unreasonable non-predictable advantages with possibly very high reward that would not have occured if the random numbers the game calculates were different. This is NOT REASONABLE for competitive play where the "best" player is going to be decided.

The key word here is "unreasonable" which is a subjective variable. In your opinion it is unreasonable. In other peoples opinions it is reasonable. Random in and of itself is clearly not unreasonable since we allow characters like D3 and Peach to be played and are comfortable with stages like Yoshi's Island and Pokemon Stadium 1 to be used. Therefor it is a matter of degree of random, and you are simply drawing the line in the sand at a different point than I am.

 

[Raziek]

Here is the thing: I like Norfair. Some of us like it, some of us don't, once the version 1.0 of the ruleset is released then we can once again look at stages. At this point in time we have the stagelist completed.

AZ, if I was to write an extremely comprehensive guide on how to predict and avoid Norfair, would you bring it up for serious, educated discussion within the group?

Can I get an answer to my more specific question?

If I make a serious effort to illustrate people's options, will you attempt to generate SERIOUS discussion, and avoid others just saying "it's Gay", and not reading about their options.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I don't think you really need to spend your time making a guide about it. Most people as I'm sure you know are already set in their opinions on every stage and regardless of logic will simply stick to what they believe and has been ingrained in their habits. I'm not saying the stage can't or won't be seriously discussed. Additionally the BBR may be working on something similar to what you are thinking.