DDD no walls infinite chain? info from Japan

[Impact009]

Smash =/= MvC2.

Nonetheless, the concept is the same. You get hit once and you're screwed.

Why must everything be tested in a tournament setting before it can be concluded that it's broken? How hard is it to see that Final Smashes are broken? How hard is it to see that this is broken?

I agree that not everything needs tournament testing for it to be blatantly game-breaking. I'm used to infinites in all of my fighting games, so this really doesn't bother me though, especially since I won't be maining one of those 4 lol.

Like what, giving those 4 an infinite of their own?

Something might come along, though I highly doubt it. :-/

What's wrong with testing it thoroughly at home? Brokenness can be concluded in home-testing as well.

Agreed.

This is, that is that. I'm assuming said infinite weren't just one move over and over and required a setup/Super meter and that the infinites weren't 0-death from anywhere on the stage. But I could be wrong.

Again, the concept is the same. One infinite and you're screwed. XvSF probably had the easiest infinites imo. An infinite combo doesn't have to be one attack repeated over and over again. In most cases they're two to four attacks repeated in a chain. Most didn't require a setup or super meters and could be done at any time anywhere.

So it's balanced then, just play someone who isn't M. Bison. This is not the case here.

Lol @ Vega players (I refuse to call him Mike Bison).

Funny how I haven't seen a true 0-death infinite despite watching some Youtube videos. They must suck.

Strategies change. Back in the day, like six years ago, the favored strategy was to perform infinite combos until the opponent's point character was dead (Magneto, Iron Man, Cable, and Storm were notorious for this). Chipping traps were also popular (ie. Duc Do's Spiral knife trap). Unlike any other game, team dynamics are more important in MvC2. Against top-tier teams like Santhrax or MSP, it's much more beneficial to end an infinite early for a snapback in order to kill off the assist. Crippling a team > killing one of its two god tier characters. MSP's rushdown ability drastically decreases without Psylocke, and Santhrax loses nearly all offensive priority without Captain Commando.

Wobbles has two requirements: Nana must be alive and synched.

For another, grabbing in Melee was much harder than in Brawl. And EVO is not the sum of all tournaments.

Most tournaments back then that I knew of allowed wobbling. Wasn't it brought up earlier that a game-breaking technique's difficulty to perform didn't matter? Either way, a tournament host ultimately decides what's in and what's out.

You adapt? How do you adapt when only one character has a true 0-death infinite from anywhere on the stage on you? By just not playing said characters against them?

Yeah, too bad this is heavily against those four characters. What he probably meant (as in the case of those other games) was to parry and counter or get the first hit.

And you adapt to this how? "Don't get hit"?

Haha, I'm not going to say any bs like "don't get grabbed" or whatever people said when they defended wobbling. I don't have anything against wobbling, but that excuse was a poor defense during Melee. Brawl's new, and the theory for fighting games has always been to eventually find a counter for something, and counters for those.

Name two.

I never got into 3S as much as I wanted to, but I do remember seeing one infinite a long time ago. That's still only one, and I can't even name it lol.

Videos, please.

Kim in C-Groove: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLHYKTytp6U

Sion 421A infinite at 4:40 or so (hit with 421A, cancel into a whiffed 2A, dash, repeat): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlrWlh7C0Yw

Sentinel infinite (the c. fierce is unblockable): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeAD1DB2sFI

Too lazy to dig through my old MvC2 videos atm. If you're honestly interested in 0 to death combos, then look up Magneto's ROM to tempest DHC Hailstorm, magic series tempest x4, Iron Man's air throw --> guard break proton infinite, Cable's AHVB, or Storm's normal jump infinite to 236 jab XX hail storm. There's also one of Daigo (using Mike Bison) doing a partition 10 combo with Ken getting dizzied, then followed up with a combo that ended in a super. It was essentially a one-combo kill because you can't do anything when your character is dizzied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9XEO275-GA <-- Second match; closest thing I can find to that moment. First two hits didn't really matter since the last hit of the super (which didn't connect) does the most damage. That wasn't a partition charge either, but if you played ST (Super Turbo) at that level, then you'd already know that partition + super strings = death.

1 mistake anywhere ever = 1 round in that many video games and I've never heard of it or seen it despite knowing some of Sweden's best players in most of them? Wow, Sweden must suck then.

Didn't Daigo come to Europe and mop the floor with everybody? I'm not saying that Sweden sucks, but I would've thought that at least France and Sweden were included.

Anyway, XvSF wasn't that big to begin with, I don't think any of the five major iterations of Melty Blood was ever popular in Europe either. In CvS2, characters who can reap the benefits of roll cancelling (whether this is game-breaking or not has been debated for years) are preferred over infinite-capable characters. I already explained MvC2; I honestly haven't seen any European players that are of the same caliber as Japanese or the very best American players, and I'm pretty sure you guys don't play EFZ competitively. I don't know about SvC Chaos in Europe or KoF either.

This matters how when two "pros" are playing and both infiniting each other? What broken and boring games people must experience at your arcade if 1 single hit truly means the round is over.

You lose a character or a round in one of those games, you lose a stock here in Brawl. It equals out when you're talking about tournament sets. Believe it or not, there are plenty of horrible players out there who attempt to chain into infinite combos in the same consistent manner...always. You know as well as anybody else that mind games and strategy are important. He probably also meant bad players who fail at doing infinites. How many people failed to successfully do this Dedede technique?

Wouldn't that make them scrubs? If infinites are so easy and prevalent, why not play to win with everything you have?

Not everybody has to play like Thomas Osaki. Would you call pros who sandbag scrubs? That'd seem like a paradox to me. There are times when you're so far ahead that you feel it's safe to be flashy or make the crowd go wild. Everybody gets those urges. Hell, just look up Justin Wong vs. Daigo in the semi-finals of 3S during EVO2K4 (an infamous match). Could Justin have not opted to go for that super and just kept turtling/poking? Yeah, but he didn't. Nobody except for maybe 2 or 3 people saw it coming, and looking back it's still pretty safe to go for that "flashier" method of that chipping. Nonetheless, he's still a very good fighting game player, whether it's MvC2, 3S, CvS2, ST, whatever.

Either way it doesn't really matter. What tournament hosts (you) want to do with this is up to them. I say if you want to ban something, then ban the technique, not the character.

Edit: Hey, what fighting games are popular for tournament play atm? How about FPS and RTS? Just wondering in case I ever travel around.

 

[Team Giza]

You said it yourself, it works on four characters.

It's been established in the way that no one's found a way to get out of it... at all. Unless the DeDeDe screws up, 1 grab = 1 stock at this very moment.

Dedede counters 4 characters then. Big deal?

Its not worth a ban like you are suggesting. So there are 100% combos on a few characters in a game where you have multiple stock. I have played many games that have 100% combos and the community still has not banned these tactics even though the game has been out for years. A notable one is the Oro semi-infinite in third strike, only works on a few characters and he needs full bar, but it gets him a kill unless he messes up. There also some 100% combos in MvC2 and they are not banned. There are even some in Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 and guess what? They aren't banned either. Infinites don't necessarily cause bans in fighting game communities Yuna, please do not go SNK on us.

The infinite needs to have the opponent above 50% at start to avoid stale moves on the down+throw correct? No big deal. Just make it so Dedede cannot keep doing it if they are over 250% or some other high number (just for stalling purposes). Or you could just let him infinite til time runs out which would make it so you would kill yourself if you got above 50% just to avoid the infinite. Eitherway, the infinite still can work in competitive play. It doesn't deserve a ban until it is proven to break the game.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Dedede counters 4 characters then. Big deal?

But that's the problem, he doesn't counter them, he makes them unusable against him.

It's worse than Sheik vs. Bowser in Melee.

 

[Deleted member]

Dedede counters 4 characters then. Big deal?

has anyonyone been reading about the counterpicks at all? lol

Its not worth a ban like you are suggesting. So there are 100% combos on a few characters in a game where you have multiple stock. I have played many games that have 100% combos and the community still has not banned these tactics even though the game has been out for years. A notable one is the Oro semi-infinite in third strike, only works on a few characters and he needs full bar, but it gets him a kill unless he messes up. There also some 100% combos in MvC2 and they are not banned. There are even some in Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 and guess what? They aren't banned either. Infinites don't necessarily cause bans in fighting game communities Yuna, please do not go SNK on us.

haha so if other completely different communities dont ban something we simply shouldnt either even though ddd doesnt require a super gauge well...no gauge at all actually >_>

The infinite needs to have the opponent above 50% at start to avoid stale moves on the down+throw correct? No big deal. Just make it so Dedede cannot keep doing it if they are over 250% or some other high number (just for stalling purposes). Or you could just let him infinite til time runs out which would make it so you would kill yourself if you got above 50% just to avoid the infinite. Eitherway, the infinite still can work in competitive play. It doesn't deserve a ban until it is proven to break the game.

no,you can do it from zero to death,quite easily too.you could not get grabbed but,its easier to get the infinite then not get grabbed at all hahaha

 

[Team Giza]

has anyonyone been reading about the counterpicks at all? lol

So those characters are screwed in that respect. Doesn't matter matter. If faced with a Dedede player, play a different character. If you are too afraid someone is going to pick Dedede, just don't use that character at all. Counter picking would be affected by this. But tons of things effect counter picking as the games life goes on. Heck I am sure that even Zelda being able to retreat while doing Din's Fire effects counter picking (admittedly to a much lesser extent). The fact that it affects counterpicking doesn't seem like enough of a reason to ban it. Perhaps I am misunderstand... could you go over in more detail?

haha so if other completely different communities dont ban something we simply shouldnt either even though ddd doesnt require a super gauge well...no gauge at all actually >_>

Not all of them needed any meter to do. The UMK3 100%s don't. Bloody Roar 3 has some grab-based infinites and it was played competitively and didn't ban them. I don't see the problem with comparing these situations. The tactic doesn't need to be banned until it proves that it will win every single tournament. The move actually does require more set up then just getting a grab from what I am hearing.

no,you can do it from zero to death,quite easily too.you could not get grabbed but,its easier to get the infinite then not get grabbed at all hahaha

From what Ive been reading you cannot do it from 0% to death. You have to get them above 50% or they can break the grab when you have to grab punch them in order to reset the stale moves on the down+throw. I am not sure if its true, but I tried to test it after I heard it and it appears to be the case.

 

[MLG Mune]

well the normal dthrow chain on certain chars require u to move across the stage. if it works, i cant get it to chain grab more than 4 times cuz the stage isnt wide enough.

 

[mugwhump]

I'm not going to argue for banning or not banning, because I don't foresee myself going tournament-crazy with brawl, but here's something to think about:

If you ever take a class on economics or game theory, you learn about something called a Nash Equilibrium, or the Prisoners' Dilemma. You can google/wikipedia it rather than me explaining it, but it basically shows how in double-blind situations, both participants will opt to pick the "safest" option, even if it is detrimental to everyone involved.

If it really is that easy to learn the infinite chain-grab, should we worry about DDD taking over the entire tournament scene? Absolutely not. Here's what we SHOULD be worried about:

Nobody will pick the 4 chainable characters in first-round double-blind picks. No matter how much you love one of those characters, and no matter how proficient you are with them, it's just not worth the risk of the other guy picking DDD. The same goes for SLOB picks if you're picking first. So in a best 2-of-3 match, game theory tells us that by not eliminating 1 character (DDD) from the competitive pool, we are essentially eliminating FOUR characters from 2/3 of tournament play.

Think about it.

Good post. So maybe we should just make an exception where if one guy picks DDD and his opponent picks one of the 4, they get to pick again.

 

[Spyckie]

lol sakurai should just replace DDD's grab with Marth, Ike, and Link appearing out of nowhere, FSing the opponent to insta-death, and DDD taunting in the background.

 

[BigRick]

in overall... melee's counterpicking rules were not very good

Dave's stupid rule was a good idea though

Also looking at the size of the community we might have to switch from the current 1on1 format. Big Melee tourneys took like... 2 days to run and they might only get bigger

======================

EDIT: I feel that it is important to post this in here... a video by Vayseth explaining the infinite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

so far it looks like Bowser might have a chance to break out of it in some way (through DI or sumtin), Luigi/Mario/Samus could break out at low percents... and DK got screwed lol stupid monkey

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

so far it looks like Bowser might have a chance to break out of it in some way (through DI or sumtin)

You can't DI out of it. DI has no effect on the throw.

Luigi/Mario/Samus could break out at low percents... and DK got screwed lol stupid monkey

It is not percentage specific.

With how counter picking works, any smart player would just counterpick DDD (even if they don't main him. They'd learn just enough to have him as a counter) against anyone who's playing those four characters, essentially eliminating them from competative play, when otherwise they may have done fine (okay, maybe not DK, but the others seem like they wouldn't be too bad).

That video also showed how to counteract the stale moves property, making this a true infinite after one grab.

All of the true infinites in melee required some kind of setup. For wobbling, Nana had to be with you and be synced (you can't set up the wobble until Nana stops moving, allowing your opponent time to escape the grab). Even this was banned at some tournaments (including Pound 3 btw), so it's not unprecendented to ban a technique.

For waveshining, you had to pin the opponent on a wall (which is very easy to avoid in melee in the first place), and you saw what we did to solve that problem (we banned almost all of the stages with walls on them.

With this infinite, you have to not get grabbed at all during a match, or else you lose the stock, and DDD's grab range is pretty good. It does not require some kind of setup like the other two, and even those infinites are dificult to set up.

 

[chaos 9]

i dont think that warrents a ban at all. i mean come on. i have some thoughts on this

1. We cant make any decisions until we see over centralization and/or a broken metagame
2. It is actually helps to make the metagame more diverse if u think about it, people will expect ddd so it will help less used players that can counter ddd to see some tourny time its like -4 + however many players counter ddd.
3. it would also take away from the mindless counter-picking of "oh they picked x (not one of the four) ill pick y because it counters it. it would always have the ddd factor or snake in the grass to watch for.
4. its a video game for crying out loud! its fun! why ban anything? i no this is a competitive smash forum, but still, the game designers dont design games to be played for money. It makes them way too serious and the game designers could just put in all the stuff that would be legal for tourneys and be done with it.
5. if they thought that this tech was cheap they would have taken it out.

In conclution this does not warrent a ban like others have said it is 4 out of 30+ use somone else! so what if you lose? big deal life goes on. if we have to argue this hard over wether a tech should be banned then we have no lives and all we care about is video games. there are much more important things in life but i digress. this does not in any way warrent a ban it actually adds to the game. thanx for reading.

 

[BigRick]

That video also showed how to counteract the stale moves property, making this a true infinite after one grab.

Hehehe what do you have to do to counter the stale moves property? Wouldn't this give you a chance to escape at low %s?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hehehe what do you have to do to counter the stale moves property? Wouldn't this give you a chance to escape at low %s?

No, because you can also get about 5-7 grabs by doing just one jab instead of two, or you can rack damage with the non-infinate version of just chasing them and at that point you'd switch to two jabs because they'd be at a high enough percent that they couldn't break out in time anymore.

1. We cant make any decisions until we see over centralization and/or a broken metagame

And having an instant win against those 4 characters is not an over centralization?

2. It is actually helps to make the metagame more diverse if u think about it, people will expect ddd so it will help less used players that can counter ddd to see some tourny time its like -4 + however many players counter ddd.

They will not expect more people to main DDD. More people will counterpick with DDD. If they lose a match, they'll pick a stage and see what character you pick. If you happen to pick any of the four, then they will pick DDD against you.

3. it would also take away from the mindless counter-picking of "oh they picked x (not one of the four) ill pick y because it counters it. it would always have the ddd factor or snake in the grass to watch for.

Counterpicking was never mindless. Loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character. With the current counterpicking system, DDD will make those 4 characters no longer viable on any counter pick against that player, unless we find a way to counter the infinite that doesn't involve DI (since it doesn't work) or stale moves (since it doesn't work).

4. its a video game for crying out loud! its fun! why ban anything?

To make it more competative. It's just like having rules in any sport. DO NOT DEMEAN US FOR PLAYING COMPETATIVELY!

i no this is a competitive smash forum, but still, the game designers dont design games to be played for money.

True, but they do design games to have a winner and a loser, and based off of that we can have competition. They also design games to have options to change how the game is played, and based off of that we can have competition. They also design the game to have techniques that can be expanded upon, and based off of that we can have competition.

It makes them way too serious and the game designers could just put in all the stuff that would be legal for tourneys and be done with it.

Or the game designers could put in options so that the players can determine how they want to play. We have the option to turn items off, so we do. We have the option to turn stages off, so we do. We are trying to make the tournament experience as fair as possible, not as fun as possible. There will be people who abuse this technique, and if it has this drastic of an effect then there should be at least some consideration for limiting or banning it.

5. if they thought that this tech was cheap they would have taken it out.

Or they could maybe not have seen it? The game developers don't neccesarily play the game competatively. They could've simply not seen that you could do this. They could've also not expected someone to resort to just doing this over and over and reliqueshing fun for a victory, but that's how serious competition goes.

In conclution this does not warrent a ban like others have said it is 4 out of 30+ use somone else! so what if you lose? big deal life goes on.

People care when there's money on the line. When you actually have a shot at winning that big prize then you start to care what the rules are.

if we have to argue this hard over wether a tech should be banned then we have no lives and all we care about is video games.

That is a blantantly ignorant statement. In case you haven't noticed, most pros have jobs, go to school, and live normal lives just like everyone else. You may have a hobby or be on some kind of team that involves competing. Well that's exactly what's going on here.

It's these ******** accusations that will make people look down upon you.

there are much more important things in life but i digress. this does not in any way warrent a ban it actually adds to the game. thanx for reading.

But it detracts from the game more than adding to it. That is the problem.

I hope that we do discover a way to get arounnd it, but in the meantime I don't want to essentially eliminate these 4 players from competative play while we find out.

 

[BigRick]

No, because you can also get about 5-7 grabs by doing just one jab instead of two, or you can rack damage with the non-infinate version of just chasing them and at that point you'd switch to two jabs because they'd be at a high enough percent that they couldn't break out in time anymore.

lol with all these variables its not a instawin anymore

also dont forget that the non-infinite doesnt work on luigi

 

[Magus420]

Can his grab attack go much faster than what it shows in the video? With the way I'm able to break out of grabs the people that play me often know not to do 2 grab hits (ones that are about that speed) until I'm at least 100% or so, and that's just in general not when I'm expecting to get grabbed and try to escape. I can't see not being able to break out even with one hit until 50% or so either if they know how to efficiently escape. Now DK on the other hand... well, he's pretty much ****ed imo

 

[Lord Knight]

People will learn to break out faster I guess. It's easier to break out in Brawl anyway.

ALSO, DDD doesn't have anywhere NEAR Melee Marth grab range, just check Magus' sig LOL.

 

[swim2007]

It frustrates me for something like this to happen especially on a game with a ridiculously long development cycle. There is no excuses for nintendo on this because it just shouldnt happen. Obviously it wasnt tested out to see that the move renders 4 characters useless. Possibly it can be patched somehow but I am not sure if there is a way to do that.

 

[Justin Wiles]

It is now becoming apparent that they pushed the game back to add more stickers and trophies...

 

[BigRick]

It is now becoming apparent that they pushed the game back to add more stickers and trophies...

LOOOOOOOLLLLLL

caps

 

[Cod]

Just make it illegal to choose Dedede against those guys. Seems better than enforcing a tactic ban, or having them be at such a disadvantage.

 

[Pharma]

Just make it illegal to choose Dedede against those guys. Seems better than enforcing a tactic ban, or having them be at such a disadvantage.

How the hell is that better than just banning the tactic?
"Oh I'm sorrry you can't play as your main (Dedede) because douche #1 has chosen Mario"
"Lol wat?"

If you are able to break out up until a certain percentage then there really is no problem. If this is the case it is still a winnable matchup it is only an unfavourable match up. Needs more testing imo.

 

[lavamage]

How about everyone knows about this, and if your opponent uses DDD, then just use your brain and don't choose any of the characters who he can chaingrab.....because it only works on a small portion of the cast, I don't think you should ban it, just have people be smart and choose wisely on their character selection

 

[Yagi]

Can his grab attack go much faster than what it shows in the video?

yes, actually much, much, much faster. you can actually grab attack and grab almost at the exact same time. it looks cool when it's done right. and again, it is A LOT faster than the video demonstrates.

 

[Yuna]

I don't have the time to backtrack all of the new pages right now (I will tomorrow), but I spoke with some of Sweden's best competitive players of "traditional" fighters two days ago.

They confirmed what I said earlier:
There is no competitive fighting game where any character has a 0-death infinite that cannot possibly be broken out of unless the opponent makes a major mistake in existence, despite what that guy (and othyers) claimed earlier.

Even in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, no such combos exist. There are, however, combos that are "fake infinites", where you do a long string of attacks and then do a "combo resetting" but letting the opponent fall to the ground and then have them guess in Oki-zeme (which kind of move you're going to do and block accordingly). However, such things are broken out of by simply blocking the moves right. There's no 0-death guaranteed combos.

Except for in Hokuto no Ken where everyone has such combos in every matchup. And even those require the use of specials (though the infinites will give you enough for the special even if you start with your special meter at 0).

So, DDD's infinite and Wobbling is a first.

I also asked them what traditional fighting game players would do if they encountered something like DDD's infinite in a fighting game:
* 0-death combo
* Guaranteed from the first hit
* Cannot be gotten out of unless the infiniter makes a mistake
* Only one character can do this
* Combo comes from something so easy to do as DeDeDe's grab (long range, super armor, game that promotes turtling/no shieldstun/limited approach, yaddi yaddi yadda)

etc. etc. etc.

They all unamously said that it would be banned if it were encountered in a "normal" fighting game. So the only card people have left to play is the "Smash is special"-card.

 

[okiyama]

*Full agree with Yuna*

 

[Mr.100]

I would personally like confirmation that it is 0 to death. If the reports that it can be broken out of in the early stages are correct, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Otherwise I think it should be banned/restricted. Say something like the chain grab combo can only be used once per stock and can only consist of 5 consecutive grabs. After this is used Dedede must not have a downthrow grab combo that is longer than 2 grabs.

With this the technique is still in play, it just can not infinite the opposition and therefore allows the non-dedede player an average chance of winning. This keeps the natural fact that Dedede is a counter-pick to the 4 characters. The only problem I can see would be regulating such a thing, but with advent of replays that should be easier.

 

[TheKingofDes]

i'm liking the sounds of this

 

[Vayseth]

As the maker of the video you guys are referencing, and the only documented D3 player to use it in a tournament, I'd like to clear up some of the flame war crap that has been going on.

For Luigi, Mario and Samus, even at over 100% dmg, it is possible to break out of the throw. Now you can get faster at it but if you mash buttons after getting thrown it is easy to get out of it. Also, doing it PERFECTLY, IN TOURNAMENT SETTING, to a percent that a forward throw will actually kill at, is nearly impossible, especially on Mario, Luigi, and Samus. The hardest part is guaranteeing a kill. It's much easier to just rack up dmg and stall the match with it. Really, I think the wall infinite is more annoying since it's faster and guarantees a stock on more people, mostly because up tilt links out of it.

Bowser's isn't an infinite per say, since D3 has to physically move to grab him. Even though it's a small amount, you're going to run out of stage eventually. With the other 4, he doesn't even have to move.

DK is srewed, plain and simple. I can hit it on DK all day, without moving and have no issues with it. It's a true 0 to death combo.

The wall infinite is what is dumb. However, I've noticed sometimes Falcos, warios, and etc other people can get a similar infinite on walls with their down throws. I don't think they can grab like D3 can, but I'mma look into it.

Here's my videos, if people haven't seen them:

Video FAQ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

No wall infinite (sorta) in play here. Also up B spikes FTW:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybQpNsMF8_I

My original thread for D3's Chain Grab:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2932

Notes: In my faq I'm trying to do things slowly and deliberately so everyone can understand exactly how and why it works. In my tournament video, you see that against Luigi it was too hard to hit and it's better for just racking up damage.

Hope that clears some stuff up.

 

[Yagi]

You grab attack way too slow for it to work. You need to work on that if you want to do it infinitely.

 

[Yo'ster]

If you think about it, this isn't about simply banning a "technique" (if you can call spamming a grab in place a technique). Rather, it is the fact that this technique makes four characters unusable against Dedede. Any time someone mains one of those four people, they know they might as well put the controller down once they get grabbed by Dedede.

That is removing four characters from tournament play and ensuring that every match to include a Mario, Luigi, DK, or Samus will be followed up by a lame Dedede match. With a chaingrab, at least you know it will end. This is an infinite move on these characters that ruins any possibility of even winning the match. It doesn't become a difficult match, it is essentially an impossible match.

Go ahead and play even against a Dedede cpu. Likely you'll get grabbed at least once. Now imagine a human player actively going for a grab, and that grab means that you loose one stock. It is pretty much impossible (unless they really suck), to avoid being grabbed three times for an entire match.

With Dedede's infinite, there is no luck, no skill, and no strategy involved. Against those four characters, it should be banned.

 

[Vayseth]

You grab attack way too slow for it to work. You need to work on that if you want to do it infinitely.

Yeah, I know. I've been working with it lately. I've been experimenting with too many characters and not honing down on a main. I hope my D3 will be better at the next bi-weekly.

 

[Manic_1]

I see no reason not to ban the technique. It is game breaking against 4 characters. it will greatly diminish the playability of the four characters in tourneys. it's just one tiny little thing, it does absolutly nothing to hamper the way a person plays DDD against other characters, or even the 4 that it works on. It's not like he couldn't still beat the crap out of them with his normal chain throw.

 

[aznxk3vi17]

I don't have the time to backtrack all of the new pages right now (I will tomorrow), but I spoke with some of Sweden's best competitive players of "traditional" fighters two days ago.

They confirmed what I said earlier:
There is no competitive fighting game where any character has a 0-death infinite that cannot possibly be broken out of unless the opponent makes a major mistake in existence, despite what that guy (and othyers) claimed earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi9eR0FSTYY

3rd Strike is most definitely a competitive fighting game. Ryu might have a sliver of life left (but then again, if you use a character with lower stamina, they would most definitely be KO'd), but even so, that there is pretty much an unescapeable 100% combo. You cannot break out of it, no matter how quickly you attempt to get out of the dizzy.

Not saying that we should outright not consider the technique being banned, but Makoto was never banned, this combo was never banned, and life went on. The difficulty of the combo compared to DDD's chain grab doesn't make a difference; at the top level of skill, one may assume that there will be no mistakes in execution made, simply judgement of the other character's actions.

 

[Impact009]

I don't have the time to backtrack all of the new pages right now (I will tomorrow), but I spoke with some of Sweden's best competitive players of "traditional" fighters two days ago.

They confirmed what I said earlier:
There is no competitive fighting game where any character has a 0-death infinite that cannot possibly be broken out of unless the opponent makes a major mistake in existence, despite what that guy (and othyers) claimed earlier.

Even in Marvel vs. Capcom 2, no such combos exist. There are, however, combos that are "fake infinites", where you do a long string of attacks and then do a "combo resetting" but letting the opponent fall to the ground and then have them guess in Oki-zeme (which kind of move you're going to do and block accordingly). However, such things are broken out of by simply blocking the moves right. There's no 0-death guaranteed combos.

Except for in Hokuto no Ken where everyone has such combos in every matchup. And even those require the use of specials (though the infinites will give you enough for the special even if you start with your special meter at 0).

So, DDD's infinite and Wobbling is a first.

I also asked them what traditional fighting game players would do if they encountered something like DDD's infinite in a fighting game:
* 0-death combo
* Guaranteed from the first hit
* Cannot be gotten out of unless the infiniter makes a mistake
* Only one character can do this
* Combo comes from something so easy to do as DeDeDe's grab (long range, super armor, game that promotes turtling/no shieldstun/limited approach, yaddi yaddi yadda)

etc. etc. etc.

They all unamously said that it would be banned if it were encountered in a "normal" fighting game. So the only card people have left to play is the "Smash is special"-card.

So you ask for videos to be posted, yet ignore them? Ikusat was an extremely technical Melty Blood: ReACT player back in the day that could do 0 to death infinites with many characters. I'm guessing the Swedish pros you talked to haven't played SNK Versus Capcom Chaos either. Mention Zero, Geese, or Orochi Iori. That game has the easiest infinite combos in any "traditional" fighting game. Because of the horrible imbalance and flaws in the engine, a lot of MAX combos are 0 to death.

I'm starting to think that those Swedish pros haven't played anything for more than one or two years. Hell if I have time, I'll personally make videos for you to confirm and back up my statements. About unanimously banning fatal combos and 0 to death infinites, we don't do that at SRK. What's done in Sweden seems to be drastically different from what we do here in the U.S.

If I do make a video, here are two combos that I'll do. I haven't competitively played for three years, but I still keep up with the scene. It'll be proof that they are nowhere near difficult to do at higher levels.

Cable AHVB on Sent (lots of variations, but this is the easiest): J. Roundhouse --> C. Short --> C. Forward --> S. Roundhouse XX [AHVB] x4

Magneto (combo varies depending on assist and DHC, in this case MSP) on anybody: J. Roundhouse --> C. Short --> C. Fierce --> Super Jump --> SJ. Roundhouse XX airdash d.f. --> SJ. (Down) Short, SJ. Forward --> [Land --> Super Jump --> SJ. Short --> SJ Forward, airdash d.f. --> SJ. (Down) Short, SJ. Forward] x10 --> Land --> Jump while calling Psylocke's Anti-Air Assist (Alpha) --> J. Short --> J. Forward XX do Magnetic Tempest --> <Psylocke hits> --> Magnetic Tempest hits XX DHC Hailstorm.

In layman's terms, triangle jump, non-flying screen with fierce or roundhouse, ROM infinite, Psylocke's AAA with the Magnetic Tempest DHC Hailstorm. This will either kill, or in the case of an opponent with high defense modifiers (ie. Sentine), it'll leave them with barely a few pixels.

Nobody was talking about combo resets or crossovers. I'll probably include something to show the difference between a reset and an unblockable attack, like the back of Magneto's c. roundhouse or the second hit of Sentinel's c. fierce. Sure the game doesn't count it as one combo, but logically wouldn't an unblockable attack between two combos ultimately combine them into one combo?

Wake up and open your eyes to all of the proof that we're posting. There's not much else that I can show you if you deny video evidence that's right in your face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi9eR0FSTYY

3rd Strike is most definitely a competitive fighting game. Ryu might have a sliver of life left (but then again, if you use a character with lower stamina, they would most definitely be KO'd), but even so, that there is pretty much an unescapeable 100% combo. You cannot break out of it, no matter how quickly you attempt to get out of the dizzy.

Akuma, to name one, would've been dead.

 

[BigRick]

As the maker of the video you guys are referencing, and the only documented D3 player to use it in a tournament, I'd like to clear up some of the flame war crap that has been going on.

For Luigi, Mario and Samus, even at over 100% dmg, it is possible to break out of the throw. Now you can get faster at it but if you mash buttons after getting thrown it is easy to get out of it. Also, doing it PERFECTLY, IN TOURNAMENT SETTING, to a percent that a forward throw will actually kill at, is nearly impossible, especially on Mario, Luigi, and Samus. The hardest part is guaranteeing a kill. It's much easier to just rack up dmg and stall the match with it. Really, I think the wall infinite is more annoying since it's faster and guarantees a stock on more people, mostly because up tilt links out of it.

Bowser's isn't an infinite per say, since D3 has to physically move to grab him. Even though it's a small amount, you're going to run out of stage eventually. With the other 4, he doesn't even have to move.

DK is srewed, plain and simple. I can hit it on DK all day, without moving and have no issues with it. It's a true 0 to death combo.

The wall infinite is what is dumb. However, I've noticed sometimes Falcos, warios, and etc other people can get a similar infinite on walls with their down throws. I don't think they can grab like D3 can, but I'mma look into it.

Here's my videos, if people haven't seen them:

Video FAQ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23UyrHXK36A

No wall infinite (sorta) in play here. Also up B spikes FTW:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybQpNsMF8_I

My original thread for D3's Chain Grab:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=2932

Notes: In my faq I'm trying to do things slowly and deliberately so everyone can understand exactly how and why it works. In my tournament video, you see that against Luigi it was too hard to hit and it's better for just racking up damage.

Hope that clears some stuff up.

Thanks for the info Vayseth

Thank god we have ppl like you

 

[FartKnocker]

I say we all submit replays of DDD infinite-throwing DK and submit them as the replays of the day, every day, for a few weeks. We'll see if Nintendo decides to patch it up (assuming they can). If they can't...well...it'll still be funny to do to the poor judges/automated programs that judge them.

It would be nice if it worked and we found a way to communicate problems with the game to Nintendo so we would never even have to bother discussing, banning, or working around potentially game-breaking matchups or mechanics. We'd simply spam them with video proof of the bugs and wait.

It's surely wishful thinking, but what other kind of thinking am I going to do when I'm at work?

 

[Yuna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi9eR0FSTYY

I'm sorry, I should've mentioned that there are certain such combos that require the use of Special Arts/Super Meter (i.e. have requirements). I forgot to specify that in my latest post (though I specified it earlier).

That combo requires Makoto to have two super bars. In other words, it cannot be done for every single round in order to win a match (she'd need 6 super bars for that). All DDD needs is one grab. One grab per stock. No requirements, no situational stuff. One grab, anywhere on any stage (that doesn't move), any percentage. And it's over.

So you ask for videos to be posted, yet ignore them? Ikusat was an extremely technical Melty Blood: ReACT player back in the day that could do 0 to death infinites with many characters. I'm guessing the Swedish pros you talked to haven't played SNK Versus Capcom Chaos either. Mention Zero, Geese, or Orochi Iori. That game has the easiest infinite combos in any "traditional" fighting game. Because of the horrible imbalance and flaws in the engine, a lot of MAX combos are 0 to death.

Did I or did I not say that I didn't have the time to backtrack yesterday? I was at a friend's house an in a hurry.

Oh, the Swedish players did mention that "Some SNK games have weird glitchy infinites". Also, SNK vs. Capcom Chaos is one of the most hated fighting games in the SNK/Capcom franchises (it was made by SNK). It's so glitchy, hitboxes aren't even proportional to sprites. A kick can have a hitbox half the size of someone's leg yet another one might have one twice the size (hyperbole). No one actually plays it.

Those Melty Blood infinites, do they require supers? Any infinite that requires the use of supers cannot be compared to the DDD infinite where 1 grab at any time on any stage = death. Why not? Because super-dependant infinites have requirements (much like Wobbling). You cannot do them at any time and anywhere.

I'm starting to think that those Swedish pros haven't played anything for more than one or two years. Hell if I have time, I'll personally make videos for you to confirm and back up my statements. About unanimously banning fatal combos and 0 to death infinites, we don't do that at SRK. What's done in Sweden seems to be drastically different from what we do here in the U.S.

Infinite which is super-easy to land due to grab range + super armor + game + mechanics + no requirements (any time, anywhere, any stage).

Cable AHVB on Sent (lots of variations, but this is the easiest): J. Roundhouse --> C. Short --> C. Forward --> S. Roundhouse XX [AHVB] x4

Magneto (combo varies depending on assist and DHC, in this case MSP) on anybody: J. Roundhouse --> C. Short --> C. Fierce --> Super Jump --> SJ. Roundhouse XX airdash d.f. --> SJ. (Down) Short, SJ. Forward --> [Land --> Super Jump --> SJ. Short --> SJ Forward, airdash d.f. --> SJ. (Down) Short, SJ. Forward] x10 --> Land --> Jump while calling Psylocke's Anti-Air Assist (Alpha) --> J. Short --> J. Forward XX do Magnetic Tempest --> <Psylocke hits> --> Magnetic Tempest hits XX DHC Hailstorm.

In layman's terms, triangle jump, non-flying screen with fierce or roundhouse, ROM infinite, Psylocke's AAA with the Magnetic Tempest DHC Hailstorm. This will either kill, or in the case of an opponent with high defense modifiers (ie. Sentine), it'll leave them with barely a few pixels.

Vids? If so many true 0-death infinites exist, you shouldn't even have to make one, you should easily be able to find one off of Youtube.

Nobody was talking about combo resets or crossovers. I'll probably include something to show the difference between a reset and an unblockable attack, like the back of Magneto's c. roundhouse or the second hit of Sentinel's c. fierce. Sure the game doesn't count it as one combo, but logically wouldn't an unblockable attack between two combos ultimately combine them into one combo?

I'm going to backtrack later tonight and watch the vids that have apparently been posted.

Wake up and open your eyes to all of the proof that we're posting. There's not much else that I can show you if you deny video evidence that's right in your face.

Did you totally miss the part where I say I didn't have the time to backtrack? A few new pages of posts had been posted when I posted my last reply and I did not have the time to backtrack. Next time, read someone's post before insulting them, acting as if they'd been ignoring posts.

Ignoring just parts of posts to serve your own purposes is worse than ignoring entire ones.

 

[aznxk3vi17]

Did you totally miss the part where I say I didn't have the time to backtrack? A few new pages of posts had been posted when I posted my last reply and I did not have the time to backtrack. Next time, read someone's post before insulting them, acting as if they'd been ignoring posts.

Ignoring just parts of posts to serve your own purposes is worse than ignoring entire ones.

To be fair, expecting him to go back and read through all the pages and your posts (with details that are either not there or clarified in others) when you are basically not practicing your own advice is a little hypocritical, but I digress.

It's fairly easy to build Super in 3rd Strike. One could theoretically build up the meter by spamming Strongs or Fierces alone. DDD's lack of a requirement is not really so, it requires being grabbed. True, it's easier to be grabbed in Brawl and in general, easier than building two super meters, but a requirement is a requirement. Still, I thought that's what the idea of a counter-pick was. Sheik vs. many characters had her chain grab that pretty much racked up damage to a single F-air KO; not certainly guaranteed, but it was pretty much a stock lost if the Sheik chased properly.

 

[Vayseth]

Yuna, the moment you can hit this infinite to equal one stock on any of those 4 characters in tournament, I'll listen to you. I'm okay at the infinite, and the daymn thing is HARD to do, especially when people are going nuts all around you, and your opponent is pissed off at you. You're going to f*** up, or they're going to break out. It's not hard to do, and it's really hard to guarentee a kill out of a no wall infinite. You have to get them to well over 300% to kill with any of D3's throw. At 4% a throw... you kind of get the idea, right?

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Yuna, the moment you can hit this infinite to equal one stock on any of those 4 characters in tournament, I'll listen to you. I'm okay at the infinite, and the daymn thing is HARD to do, especially when people are going nuts all around you, and your opponent is pissed off at you. You're going to f*** up, or they're going to break out.

I've seen plenty of tournament matches in melee where a Fox wall-infinited his opponent with Dair -> shine -> Dair -> shine etc. This is a much more difficult technique to do than DDD's infinite grab.

As stated before, level of difficulty is completely irrelevant. At some point, people will be able to do this perfectly, regardless of pressure or technique.