Dealing with annoying parts of a match up: Wolf and trained pokemon

[_clinton]

This thread is going to take a certain character every few days (overall it is going to be less than a week mkay?) in the order of appearances on the chart...or whatever I feel like doing...

Stat wise it is dealing with what the other character talking about has on Ness...and how Ness could counter it...not what Ness has on other character...

Anyway...I have a new rule...I'm going to list only 3 things that character has on Ness...it is up to the others in this thread to expand on it...

Also note that I'll reopen this thread with the old stuff when it is done (so don't ask where the other characters are ATM) I have the lists saved in a file anyway...

Things to look out for from Wolf:
1) Dsmash and why it is a nice gimp tool as well as KO move.
2) Bair, Fsmash, and his other large hitbox moves that are annoying to deal with
3) His recovery is at least better than Falco's (for one he has like 3 different ways of using his Side special) and there is some risk at fighting him in a point as long as he doesn't have to go in a straight direction...

Things to look out for from trained pokemon:
Squirtle
1) His special movement options and all the stuff he can do with them
2) His air game and why ours can wall it but you still have to respect his just because of how fast he is...which brings up another point...how on earth is a turtle that fast?
3) His fun filled BS grab stuff, as well as Water Gun having a use on us

Ivysaur
1) Ivysaur has a large anti-air game...but Ness' Fair is a defense tool...not offense...but still that is the main reason I can see people on the other board listing Ivysaur as a 7:3 on Ness
2) Ness can force Ivysaur to play his way IMO...because baseball bats are fun, and learning how to spot dodge is fun, because Ivysaur has some pretty wicked KO moves
3) Ivysaur's lovey special moves and why learning how to SDI out of bullet seed will save Ness

Charizard
1) Rock smash and why baseball is fun and will do a good job at reflecting rock shards, also his other special moves are also able to be countered
2) Grab release BS, but also why does he have 9/10 of his moves being kill moves as well
3) His Fair being the worse thing to be hit by when you are recovering...speaking of that...he has some pretty neat gimp options...

So...anything else to add on?

 

[PKNintendo]

Why don't we ask the Mario's themselves?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Retreated fairs, gimp his kinda bad up-b, only PKT2 below the stage to avoid FLUDD, CP stages with hollow floors i.e. halberd and delfino plaza.

 

[FireKirby7]

Things to look at with Mario:
1. Gimping with cape and FLUDD

2. His air game overall being faster than ours

3. His Fsmash when tilted up and sweet spotted is the same in kill power as Lucas' (which means it is right at our level as well) and his sour spot has only about 10% less power, his Usmash and Dsmash are fast as well (frame 5 for Dsmash...don't get grabbed)

4. The overall multipurpose use with Fireballs

1. Recover low, FLUDD can't hit you there, but Mario can drop down and cape
2. Space with fair, if being comboed you should get out with nair.
3. Yeah it's pretty nasty. Mario's can mindgame a fsmash by walking away from you and then fsmashing, kinda like how Marths do. It's great for Mario because of his DI up and momentum cancel so you can help yourself survive. If you perfect shield, go for a grab, strong aerial or yo-yo. If you just shield and get pushed back, don't go for a grab, he'll just be original and spotdodge dsmash. I would use an aerial, maybe fair or nair.
4. I never found fireballs to be annoying, but you gotta be quick if you're gonna absorb them, PSI Magnet comes out on frame 11 I think? Much slower than a shield, but Marios know how to punish someone for gaurding against fireballs. I do it with Luigi sometimes..... You can bat fireballs but that never does anything useful.

 

[Matador]

Fireball also cancels PKT if it hits the head. I'll have more later.

 

[Uffe]

1. When recovering, you don't need to go below the stage to avoid Mario's F.L.U.D.D. Doing so will only put you in a more inconveniant spot as Mario can either try to spike you, Cape you or even edgehog you. Use whatever means to stall your recovery against Mario if necessary. As for his Cape on stage, things that can deal with this are nair, dair and Ness' Yo-yo. The Cape on stage isn't really a major threat, so having three attacks to deal with the Cape are pretty good.
2. His air game is a bit faster than ours. Normally Mario will use his bair while he's in the air as well as maybe his Fireballs for more of a defensive-offensive style. The Fireballs are usually used for approaching and usually bairs when you're close.
3. For Mario's f-smashes, he's tricky when he comes to this. It kills pretty early which is ridiculous. His u-smash is basically similar in a way for speed and kill power while his d-smash isn't as useful for killing like the other two. However, each one is to be looked out for. Never roll around Mario when he tries to kill you.
4. Fireballs are used for approaching, attacking at a distance and possibly gimping a characters second jump

Also, I'm going to go ahead and point out that when Mario as well as Luigi tries to combo you with their u-tilts to uairs, DI out of that. You won't get as much damage on you as you would if you were trying to figure out how to deal with it. Nair also works against his little comboes, but don't rely on that alone if you plan on getting out. Things can get worse if you just try to nair out of it.

 

[_clinton]

So...who should I do next? I was thinking G&W

 

[Uffe]

Lol. How strange. I just got done fighting a Mr. Game & Watch. But is this Mario one done now or what's going on?

 

[_clinton]

Lol. How strange. I just got done fighting a Mr. Game & Watch. But is this Mario one done now or what's going on?

I only opened it today...but I could just open another one as well...I'll do it later maybe...

 

[PKSkyler]

id like a g&w discussion. there one of my worst match ups.

 

[Crystanium]

Let me help, since this is universal regarding Mr. Game & Watch.

The down throw is commonly used among Mr. Game & Watch players, and the reason why this is so is likely due to the set-ups that can be used out of it. It is a bit like Snake's, in that it it doesn't knock the opponent away, but causes the opponent to be thrown down directly.

Tech Chasing: For those who aren't familiar with the term, a tech chase would be when Mr. Game & Watch throws you down, and then waits for you to roll to the left or to the right, or even simply stand back up or attack while getting back up. If you roll to the left, Mr. Game & Watch will run to the left and grab you. If you roll to the right, he'll do the same thing. If you get up, he'll grab you. If you attack as you are getting back up, he will shield-grab you. Basically, you're screwed, unless Mr. Game & Watch messes up or if you tech when he throws you down.

D-Throw to Neutral A to Grab: Upon being thrown downward, Mr. Game & Watch will use his Greenhouse (neutral A) and grab you again. This one really isn't difficult to get out of, and a simple tech from being thrown down can help in this situation.

D-Throw to U-Smash: Against a good Mr. Game & Watch player, you'll have to be careful here. The reason is because the player may be used to reading what direction his opponents have moved, and so follow that direction. This is somewhat like a tech chase, but instead of grabbing again, the Mr. Game & Watch player will run in the direction he sees his opponent rolling, and uses his u-smash. If you're around 90% damage, this can lead to a possible KO.

D-Throw to D-Smash: This is somewhat like the aforementioned set-up, but instead of moving anywhere, if Mr. Game & Watch sees Ness simply get up or just stay there to prevent any of these other set-ups, he'll use his d-smash. Teching the d-throw is the best way to prevent this, but sometimes it isn't always necessary to tech to prevent getting hit. Immediately rolling to the left or right may also prevent getting hit.

 

[_clinton]

A rule of thumb about G&W's bucket...a single PKT head, PKF head, or quick flash...and then anything else is all he needs to KO you with it...so the moment you see him absorb Fire or Thunder...do note to be careful...oh and it is a part of his gimp game on Ness as well...

Anyway as far as the gimp game goes when using PKT...Uspecial can lift you and make your life hard if you don't expect it...and Uair can screw with you as well...G&W's key has two falling speeds...slow and fast...his up special also has special frames which make hitting through it hard...plus it pretty much makes up for his **** roll (yeah...G&W won't roll)

On a rare note though...Ness' air game is actually faster than someone else's overall for a change (G&W's moves have odd speed)

 

[CarVac]

GAW's "special frames" to his up-B are invincibility frames, actually. And, he can attack out of it. And, if he buffers an aerial, it's automatically fastfalled, so watch out.

We're particularly blessed against his up-air though, because we have enough aerial manuverability to get out from on top. Still, watch out for spamming this, because it refreshes his smashes.

Otherwise, we should retreat Fairs, it has ridiculous range.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Don't try and dair him, retreat fairs.
That's all I got.

 

[Liquid Gen]

I recommend the next talk be about Bowser's cg.

 

[Noa.]

For G&W...
1. The Air Game having more range than ours

To get past G&W's wall of bairs and nairs you should try spacing your aerial with the most range. Honestly, there's not much you can do about it but don't try to face it head on. G&W's bair will eat through your aerials. Just try to outzone him.

Dair is very predictable for G&W. I'm not sure whether your uair beats our dair, but if we land with dair you should be able to shield grab it or get a dash grab. Be careful though, becuase dair can be quite fast and is used for combos at times.

2. Dthrow and why it can annoy Ness

If you don't tech the dthrow and the G&W is fast enough we can follow up with a dsmash, so always tech it. But do not be predictable with your teching or you will eat an usmash at high percents.

3. The Bucket and its effect on Ness and allows G&W to live longer...

As long as you don't spam your PK or aren't predictable, G&W shouldn't be able to bucket any projectiles. But on the offchance that he does bucket a projectile you should be able to punish him because it has tremondous ending lag (the exception being when he buckets a third projectile, then ending lag is erased completely). If G&W does have a full bucket, be careful because dthrow to bucket is a very common tactic.

4. The Gimp Game and early KO moves...

This is where G&W destroys Ness worst in this matchup, IMO. G&W has three options to gimp your recovery; fair, uair and the bucket. Fair is very good for kills offstage when it's fresh. G&W can go under you and uair you, causing your PKT recovery to miss. All I can advise is that you try your best to land on stage. The bucket can absorb your PKT making you go to freefall. It's best to just never go offstage and never use your PKT recovery unless you have to.

Replys in bold.

 

[PKNintendo]

Where are the Mario's?

Most heinous.

Edit: Thanks Draconoa44.

 

[Crystanium]

I think you can hit Mr. Game & Watch if he's using d-air. Just don't make contact with the key. If I recall correctly, I used u-air with Samus and was able to hit Mr. Game & Watch while he was using d-air. I know it's different with Ness, but I'm just giving some information.

 

[PKSkyler]

Hmm, I wouldnt reccomend meeting G&W's dair with our uair, it would be better to retreating fair him or if your feeling risky bair or nair him as he comes down.

 

[thesage]

Uair has a suprising amount of range if you space it correctly. The hitbox is extremely weird. You guys should test it out.

You can gimp Mario just as badly as he can to you by learning how to edgehog. It's so easy to do it to him + his up-b has tons of lag.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

+ his up-b has tons of lag.

His upb is frame 1...

 

[thesage]

ending lag when it hits the ground. Not startup lag.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

ending lag when it hits the ground. Not startup lag.

Oh never mind then... Is it enough for a tipper bat?

 

[Levitas]

Mario hit on frame 1? I somewhat doubt that. Ankoku is speculating that it's invincible starting on 1, though. Possibly.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Mario hit on frame 1? I somewhat doubt that. Ankoku is speculating that it's invincible starting on 1, though. Possibly.

Well then it's like the same thing only better for mario.

 

[Uffe]

You know what's weird? Top Ness mains say that Mr. Game & Watch shouldn't give Ness a hard time and I think G&W mains agree on this as well. Of course the sad thing is is that a lot of Ness mains have a tough time against G&W. I hear that Ness' fair cuts through G&W's bair. I haven't exactly tried this out myself. Anyway, G&W doesn't give me a hard time as he used to before. The only thing I worry about is getting my PKT absorbed when trying to recover.

 

[xoxokev]

You know what's weird? Top Ness mains say that Mr. Game & Watch shouldn't give Ness a hard time and I think G&W mains agree on this as well. Of course the sad thing is is that a lot of Ness mains have a tough time against G&W. I hear that Ness' fair cuts through G&W's bair. I haven't exactly tried this out myself. Anyway, G&W doesn't give me a hard time as he used to before. The only thing I worry about is getting my PKT absorbed when trying to recover.

i think fair only beats the turtle when you retreat them... any tips on approaching G&W?

 

[_clinton]

i think fair only beats the turtle when you retreat them... any tips on approaching G&W?

PK Jump is pretty useful IMO for dealing with the issue of his turtle...of course do note that G&W's bucket can pick up a full fill off a PK Fire pillar pretty well...which is an issue if he has absorbed at least one PKT head, PKF bolt, PK Flash in general...but even w/o it...it is still an issue...

Stat wise...at the very least...if they are going to lock horns in the air with both of their main annoy moves at the same time...Ness will win...because he is faster...but I guess the reason for turtle being good is defense...not offense...

Anyway...remember the golden rule about Ness' Nair...Ness' Nair is the move to use when up close and personal and you are meeting each other...Bair and Uair have their own uses of course (Bair to Uair is my favorite thing when dealing with Brawl's air dodge at the kill range)

I wonder...does the bat reflect oil?

 

[Dajayman]

I don't think you can reflect oil, only counter it.

Uair has always had a weird hitbox, if timed right it will beat out most dairs in all the games. I know for a fact that nothing can beat Ness's uair in 64.

 

[_clinton]

I don't think you can reflect oil, only counter it.

Uair has always had a weird hitbox, if timed right it will beat out most dairs in all the games. I know for a fact that nothing can beat Ness's uair in 64.

Well...at the very least Uair will trade hits with them...I know because of trying to slam some Ness' with Lucas' Dair at the same time...of course you guys are aware that for the most part...Uair might appear odd...but in truth it makes sense (you are just hitting their hurtbox)

 

[Uffe]

any tips on approaching G&W?

You don't. XD You don't really need to use your projectile for him to come at you. Especially since all he has to do is absorb it. And because his attacks are pretty dangerous, you kind of want to bait him. Like Mario, do not roll around G&W. His smashes kill pretty early and his forward B is something to look out for. An example would be his up B > foward B. It does work. Just don't play stupid around G&W. Anyway, don't be afraid to use PKF or PKT on G&W. If you don't do it a lot, you'll catch him off guard.

 

[xoxokev]

You don't. XD You don't really need to use your projectile for him to come at you. Especially since all he has to do is absorb it. And because his attacks are pretty dangerous, you kind of want to bait him. Like Mario, do not roll around G&W. His smashes kill pretty early and his forward B is something to look out for. An example would be his up B > foward B. It does work. Just don't play stupid around G&W. Anyway, don't be afraid to use PKF or PKT on G&W. If you don't do it a lot, you'll catch him off guard.

So run away from him, and attack when you can? gotcha

 

[Uffe]

So run away from him, and attack when you can? gotcha

Actually, just retreat your attacks. You can still bait/air camp him. Either way, his best aerial is probably just his bair. I'm not going to say that I'm right about this, but most G&W's use bair and when they don't against me, I usually get my hits on them.

 

[_clinton]

Well I guess that is good for now...I'll make a different topic for this after a while...

 

[Praxis]

Peach:

Don't get grabbed.

 

[Dajayman]

Since I'm picking up Bowser as a secondary I'll try to give some advice.

Bowser's defensive game is excellent. His shield is enormous, he has excellent grab releases on Ness, and he has upb oos. Becareful against a shielding Bowser, your best bet is to use a retreating fair or sweetspot a bair on his shield (pushes Bowser far enough).

Bowser has alot of KO moves, which means at least one will be fresh enough and he can mix up his kills. In fact, his only move that doesn't have kill potential is his dair. Keep that fact in mind.

Other than that, Bowser is a huge target so abuse him. Remember that he has decent range, his fair and ftilt have good range. A good Bowser will also use Klaw Hopping to approach, watch out for that too.

 

[xoxokev]

wait what happened to the mario/g&w info?

 

[_clinton]

I have to reorganize everything...

 

[Red Arremer]

Peach:

Don't get grabbed.

This applies for Bowser as well. His grab release is **** on Ness. :x

One very very very important thing first: BOWSER IS NOT SLOW!!!
In fact, Bowser is extremely mobile, and his aerial mobility is one of the best in the game. His moves can all be very fast. The only thing you might call slow on him is the cooldown for several moves such as the FSmash or the BAir (especially when landed in between).

Bowser has for pretty much everything the UpB/Fortress's invincibility frames and his outrageously huge shield. His Jab and his FTilt come out incredibly fast and outrange Ness in pretty much every move. He also has the SideB/Klaw, which (if connecting) will result in either a Bowsercide or ~20% free damage. His FAir is surprisingly quick. His Firebreath can ruin Ness' recovery (as far as I'm aware, please correct me if I'm wrong).

It's no easy matchup for Ness, but due to Bowser's size, he might be able to trap him into a PK Fire chain (that's at least what Straked loved to do on WiFi to me lol). Spikes are easy to pull off on him, too due to that size. Just remember, kids: The Fortress has invincibility frames and insane priority.

 

[Uffe]

Bowser has an infinite second jump. A lot of characters do, but Bowser uses his more than any other character from what I've seen. This is a great way for Bowser to try and trick you since he moves back and forth in the air. Of course this can simply be dealt with by using PK Thunder but probably more useful, PK Jump. This method of Bowser's isn't that much of a threat however, and it's pretty easy to deal with, so enough about that.

Bowser's edgeguard is annoying. His best one against Ness would have to be his Fire Breath. Of course if you're above stage level or at stage level, this can be fairly easy to get by. All you really need is your second jump. If you're feeling lucky, you can also use your PSI Magnet to land on his Fire Breath and maybe jump or roll around it after getting some health back. There's probably really no point in doing that.

If you're below stage level, you might have to try and PK Thunder to the edge. Since Bowser's Fire Breath would give Ness an extra use for PK Thunder, you'll probably have to do this until his fire runs down.

If there is one thing I don't like too entirely about fighting Bowser, it'd have to be his grab release on Ness. I'm not sure how short his grab range is, but when you do get grabbed for a grab release, it sucks. There currently is no method for getting around this other than not getting grabbed. Of course there is a possible chance for air release. Bowser can either do his d-tilt or his down B I think it is. Of course I'm not sure if his down B will work on an air release. It's been awhile since I've last fought a Bowser.

How do you get an air release? I believe one way would be getting grabbed while in the air. The other way I believe would be no pummeling or a messed up pummel. I'm positive Bowser can still get you in a air release, though. Either way, fortunately for Ness, Bowser is a large target, but don't take him too lightly.

I'll do my part on Luigi in about eight hours. I'm going to bed.