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Debate Hall Current Events Thread -- Use this for all discussion on current events!

SuperBowser

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
1,331
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jolly old england. hohoho.
The whole point of that was just to show that it's silly to simply say "health care is a right" (as I said in the previous post).

I might disagree that QALY is the correct system, and instead say "no, I have a right to massages and acne treatments too".

You can't make an argument simply based on saying that it is a right.
I never really come across people that demand their "rights" so I don't quite get your point. Maybe it's an American thing. You, as an individual, may disagree with anything you like. That in itself does not affect national policy.

I didn't say healthcare is a right. Technically it is not even a right in England. The NHS sees fit to provide or not provide treatment to their patients. Patients cannot forcibly demand treatments that go against guidelines. Even if they disagree with the QALY system. If you are adamant for your unsupported acne treatment, you can obtain it privately. The government does not have to pay for it.

I am offering robust options for provision of healthcare when there are resource constraints. Nobody has a bottomless pit of money. QALY system or not, governments can devise standardised and fair methods of distributing healthcare that account for cost, effectiveness and all the other factors I've mentioned.

Obviously price is not the only factor ... when did I ever say differently? What I am saying is that people will have different ideas as to where the line is drawn. Some people might subscribe to this QALY system, others might not. I don't think you can MORALLY say that QALY is the right system.
The same can be said for any system you devise. I don't get the point of such a statement. With such an attitude, can you accomplish anything? My point is not that the QALY system is moral. It is that there are several robust methods used around the world already to assign distribution of resources for healthcare. You make it sound like the dilemmas you present are irreconcilable, but several countries around the world have done it.

Of course there are debates on where to draw the line. This leads to healthy discussion and research. Experts in the field come to the best decisions they can. A mere personal disagreement on your behalf does not undermine such frameworks.

I don't think you can MORALLY say your proposed system is the right system either.

In summary, since I don't agree with a moral argument for health care, I instead examine the economic argument for it.
Interestingly, Americans pay more for healthcare per citizen than most developed nations. Public healthcare does not correlate with cost.

You're taking that example too literally. I am just illustrating moral hazard. Once you say under QALY or whatever system that I am entitled to expensive treatments, I will have no incentive to switch to cheaper ones even if my problem gets better.
You don't have to. The system will do this for you. You are ultimately "entitled" to what is deemed appropriate. Patient control is important and all, but you are taking it a bit far. The doctor is prescribing, not the patient :laugh:.


I'm not sure it is worth continuing the discussion on safety/electronic products. We might have to agree to disagree. El Nino himself said you should not trust his bosses without safety regulations. I might provide examples later, but I don't believe organizations such as the FDA were constructed without reason.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
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disproving determinism
I never really come across people that demand their "rights" so I don't quite get your point. Maybe it's an American thing. You, as an individual, may disagree with anything you like. That in itself does not affect national policy.
Someone in this very thread stated that health care is a right.

I didn't say healthcare is a right. Technically it is not even a right in England. The NHS sees fit to provide or not provide treatment to their patients. Patients cannot forcibly demand treatments that go against guidelines. Even if they disagree with the QALY system. If you are adamant for your unsupported acne treatment, you can obtain it privately. The government does not have to pay for it.
Ok so you don't have a right for other people to pay for your health care. Great.

I am offering robust options for provision of healthcare when there are resource constraints. Nobody has a bottomless pit of money. QALY system or not, governments can devise standardised and fair methods of distributing healthcare that account for cost, effectiveness and all the other factors I've mentioned.
Wait what? You said the government can devise "fair methods of distributing healthcare" right after you said there is no right to health care.

If you're appealing to fairness, that comes with a moral component, which says to me at least that you think other people should be morally obligated to pay for your health care.

The same can be said for any system you devise. I don't get the point of such a statement. With such an attitude, can you accomplish anything? My point is not that the QALY system is moral. It is that there are several robust methods used around the world already to assign distribution of resources for healthcare. You make it sound like the dilemmas you present are irreconcilable, but several countries around the world have done it.
Yes, exactly. No system is obviously morally superior. Any system which promotes positive rights like a right to health care will have people disagree about what extent of health care you deserve.

I never disagreed that there were systems to assign distribution for health care. Here's another potential system: don't distribute health care at all. Or only distribute health care in life and death situations. Or only distribute acne medication. I just don't think any of these systems is morally superior above all others.

Of course there are debates on where to draw the line. This leads to healthy discussion and research. Experts in the field come to the best decisions they can. A mere personal disagreement on your behalf does not undermine such frameworks.
Yes, but these debates should be on an economic basis rather than a moral one.

I don't think you can MORALLY say your proposed system is the right system either.
Well, I think I can (because I disagree with positive rights and support voluntary interactions), but that's not what I am trying to do here.

I'm trying to make this argument about the economics of the situation rather than the morality.

Interestingly, Americans pay more for healthcare per citizen than most developed nations. Public healthcare does not correlate with cost.
I am not defending the current system. I want a deregulated free market in health care.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "Americans pay more". Is this counting the government subsidies? (if not, then of course Americans pay more in an less subsidized market).

Economically, public health care will have costs due to inefficiency of government.

You don't have to. The system will do this for you. You are ultimately "entitled" to what is deemed appropriate. Patient control is important and all, but you are taking it a bit far. The doctor is prescribing, not the patient :laugh:.
Let's use an example of a type-2 diabetic. He can control his diabetes with insulin, or he can control it with diet, exercise, and perhaps other less expensive drugs.

Why would he not just always choose the insulin if someone else is paying for it? Do you not see a problem with this?

Plus this goes beyond simple cases like that. People are less incentivized to live healthy lives in general if someone else will pick up their medical bills. People will go to the doctor on a whim for any illness, because someone else is picking up the bill.

I'm not sure it is worth continuing the discussion on safety/electronic products. We might have to agree to disagree. El Nino himself said you should not trust his bosses without safety regulations. I might provide examples later, but I don't believe organizations such as the FDA were constructed without reason.
Well, thanks for not answering any of my questions I suppose.

I am trying to show that your apparent idea that companies are just trying to screw everybody is wrong, because it doesn't take into account their incentives. Companies have an incentive to make good products and keep customers happy because that will make them more money.

Also, if you trust doctors so much, then why not just let the doctor decide whether a patient should have medication, rather than the FDA? (note that this is one way private regulatory agencies could function - by providing a service to the doctors giving them info about different drugs that come out)

At the least, what is wrong with having medications that aren't approved by the FDA and simply forcing them to be advertised as "NOT FDA APPROVED"?
 

SuperBowser

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Messages
1,331
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jolly old england. hohoho.
Wait what? You said the government can devise "fair methods of distributing healthcare" right after you said there is no right to health care.

If you're appealing to fairness, that comes with a moral component, which says to me at least that you think other people should be morally obligated to pay for your health care.
You pay for your healthcare when you pay your taxes. You may not agree with this system, but please do not equate it to others pay for an individual's healthcare. There is a difference. Whatever system is created (including yours) "fairness" will come into play. In this particular case, I was referring to allocation of resources in such a way that different medical conditions receive appropriate funding allocation.

Yes, exactly. No system is obviously morally superior. Any system which promotes positive rights like a right to health care will have people disagree about what extent of health care you deserve.

I never disagreed that there were systems to assign distribution for health care. Here's another potential system: don't distribute health care at all. Or only distribute health care in life and death situations. Or only distribute acne medication. I just don't think any of these systems is morally superior above all others.
Why does healthcare exist? When you answer that question you can form a framework from which to allocate resources.

Yes, but these debates should be on an economic basis rather than a moral one.
Why?

Regardless, publicized healthcare does not equate to raised costs for the economy.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "Americans pay more". Is this counting the government subsidies? (if not, then of course Americans pay more in an less subsidized market).
The Commonwealth study found America has the most costly healthcare system. Despite this, America underperforms on most dimensions of performance.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...1400_Davis_Mirror_Mirror_on_the_wall_2010.pdf

Economically, public health care will have costs due to inefficiency of government.
Prove it.

Contrary to your claim, the US ranks last for effieciency, while the UK ranks first in the above study. How is this possible?


Let's use an example of a type-2 diabetic. He can control his diabetes with insulin, or he can control it with diet, exercise, and perhaps other less expensive drugs.

Why would he not just always choose the insulin if someone else is paying for it? Do you not see a problem with this?

Plus this goes beyond simple cases like that. People are less incentivized to live healthy lives in general if someone else will pick up their medical bills. People will go to the doctor on a whim for any illness, because someone else is picking up the bill.
Again, you are wrong if you think such cases are not accounted for in public health systems. Under NICE guidelines, lifestyle advice can be recommended instead of medication for grade I hypertension. Options for treatments are based on all of the things we have discussed already. Efficacy, evidence-based medicine, cost effectiveness etc.

You make strong accusations here. I'd like you to back them up because I think they are rubbish. You are referencing the "welfare queen"; it is a tiny minority that abuse free healthcare. What is much more likely to occur, is that people are more likely to seek healthcare when they do need it. Especially in a country where cost has been a significant barrier to patients. From the Commonwealth study:

"Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick, not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care, not filling a prescription, or not seeing a dentist when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, nearly half of lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year."

My personal experience is that a treatment being "free" is rarely a problem. Doctors and patients choose treatments that are the most appropriate for their particular case. That is how it should be.

I think it's a travesty for a patient to decline the best treatment available because they are afraid of paying. A poorly controlled diabetic patient ultimately costs more to the healthcare system and impacts the economy (these calculations are included when allocating resources). What happens when he comes back in 10 years with chronic kidney disease and can no longer work or support his family?

Well, thanks for not answering any of my questions I suppose.

I am trying to show that your apparent idea that companies are just trying to screw everybody is wrong, because it doesn't take into account their incentives. Companies have an incentive to make good products and keep customers happy because that will make them more money.
There's not much to say; I disagree. I do not believe you can trust companies to value consumer safety above profits.

Also, if you trust doctors so much, then why not just let the doctor decide whether a patient should have medication, rather than the FDA? (note that this is one way private regulatory agencies could function - by providing a service to the doctors giving them info about different drugs that come out)

At the least, what is wrong with having medications that aren't approved by the FDA and simply forcing them to be advertised as "NOT FDA APPROVED"?
What regulations do you exactly take issue with?

Doctors do not have the time, tools or skills to assess every medication that enters the market. It would be madness! That is why organizations such as NICE or the FDA exist.

Medications that do not meet basic regulations are not allowed on market because they are dangerous. Doctors, let alone the general public, cannot accurately assess every drug released. Even with the stringent criteria we use today, there have been some terrible mistakes. The most recent example that comes to mind is COX-2 inhibitors. While I'm not sure which regulations of the FDA you want removed, I would strongly oppose the release of medications not approved by some regulatory body - medicine involves life or death situations and it is certainly not homeopathy. Such mechanisms are in place to ensure the best quality of care is provided.

Additionally, I should add doctors do decide what to give their patients. A drug approved by the FDA is not necessarily a drug the doctor will opt to prescribe.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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disproving determinism
You pay for your healthcare when you pay your taxes. You may not agree with this system, but please do not equate it to others pay for an individual's healthcare. There is a difference. Whatever system is created (including yours) "fairness" will come into play. In this particular case, I was referring to allocation of resources in such a way that different medical conditions receive appropriate funding allocation.
I thought that's exactly the point? You receive health care regardless of ability to pay, right? That requires others paying for your health care.

Why does healthcare exist? When you answer that question you can form a framework from which to allocate resources.
Because there is demand for it.

Really? Half the preceding discussion was me explaining why I thought it didn't make sense to argue for a moral right to health care. I don't think it's a specific enough claim.

Regardless, publicized healthcare does not equate to raised costs for the economy.
Compared to a free market it will.

The Commonwealth study found America has the most costly healthcare system. Despite this, America underperforms on most dimensions of performance.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/m...1400_Davis_Mirror_Mirror_on_the_wall_2010.pdf
So what? As I stated many times before, I do not support the American system.

Prove it.
Markets are more efficient than governments. QED

I explained problems in the current system and explained how the new bill doesn't address the root causes of rising health care costs in an earlier post too.

Contrary to your claim, the US ranks last for effieciency, while the UK ranks first in the above study. How is this possible?
How is this contrary to any claim of mine?

It's possible because the US system is messed up due to government regulations and other problems I outlined earlier.

Again, you are wrong if you think such cases are not accounted for in public health systems. Under NICE guidelines, lifestyle advice can be recommended instead of medication for grade I hypertension. Options for treatments are based on all of the things we have discussed already. Efficacy, evidence-based medicine, cost effectiveness etc.
Maybe they have the perfect solution to all potential moral hazard problems ... I'm skeptical.

You make strong accusations here. I'd like you to back them up because I think they are rubbish. You are referencing the "welfare queen"; it is a tiny minority that abuse free healthcare. What is much more likely to occur, is that people are more likely to seek healthcare when they do need it. Especially in a country where cost has been a significant barrier to patients. From the Commonwealth study:
Of course people are more likely to seek health care when they do need it ... they are more likely to seek it when they don't need it also.

I don't see how I referenced a "welfare queen" at all.

Anyway I'm talking about where incentives lead.

"Americans with below-average incomes were much more likely than their counterparts in other countries to report not visiting a physician when sick, not getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care, not filling a prescription, or not seeing a dentist when needed because of costs. On each of these indicators, nearly half of lower-income adults in the U.S. said they went without needed care because of costs in the past year."
How is "needed care" defined here? This goes back to the moral argument anyway that doesn't have an obvious solution.

My personal experience is that a treatment being "free" is rarely a problem. Doctors and patients choose treatments that are the most appropriate for their particular case. That is how it should be.
I just don't understand where you are coming from anymore. You said it wasn't about morals, but this statement here "That is how it should be" sure makes it seem like it's about morals.

I think it's a travesty for a patient to decline the best treatment available because they are afraid of paying. A poorly controlled diabetic patient ultimately costs more to the healthcare system and impacts the economy (these calculations are included when allocating resources). What happens when he comes back in 10 years with chronic kidney disease and can no longer work or support his family?
First sentence is another moral argument, and doesn't always make sense anyway (insert scenario here where the best treatment costs $1 billion and the second best costs $10).

The rest of the paragraph is a good argument though (well except for the "support his family" emotional appeal). I don't think the figures add up that way and I don't think that many people will have this problem of radically uncontrolled illnesses in a free market anyway. But at least it is a good economic argument that uninsured people create other costs in the system.

There's not much to say; I disagree. I do not believe you can trust companies to value consumer safety above profits.
Did you read any of what I said? Consumer safety is an extremely important PART OF profits. If you don't keep your customers safe you go out of business.

What regulations do you exactly take issue with?
I couldn't point to specific laws or anything. But the FDA makes it difficult to bring a product to market, as we agreed earlier.

Doctors do not have the time, tools or skills to assess every medication that enters the market. It would be madness! That is why organizations such as NICE or the FDA exist.
True, that's why I outlined how private institutions could take up this role of doing research for the doctors. One obvious source of info is medical journals.

Medications that do not meet basic regulations are not allowed on market because they are dangerous. Doctors, let alone the general public, cannot accurately assess every drug released. Even with the stringent criteria we use today, there have been some terrible mistakes. The most recent example that comes to mind is COX-2 inhibitors. While I'm not sure which regulations of the FDA you want removed, I would strongly oppose the release of medications not approved by some regulatory body - medicine involves life or death situations and it is certainly not homeopathy. Such mechanisms are in place to ensure the best quality of care is provided.
If this is in response to my question about allowing non-FDA approved medicines to be sold, then remember that there is a difference between a drug that gets rejected and one that just hasn't been approved yet. Many drugs are going to be approved, but only after an arduous process. It would be better for the companies if they could sell the product before that, but still have to advertise it as "NOT FDA APPROVED". It's entirely possible that the product will eventually get approved, in which case they can change the labeling to say "FDA APPROVED".

Additionally, I should add doctors do decide what to give their patients. A drug approved by the FDA is not necessarily a drug the doctor will opt to prescribe.
Yes, obviously. But how often are doctors going to prescribe untested, potentially dangerous drugs anyway?
 

El Nino

BRoomer
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Messages
1,288
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Ground zero, 1945
By the way, you say that the drug and food companies would screw people without the FDA, but
1) If they want to stay in business they won't screw over their customers because then customers won't buy their products
To stay in business, you only need to do as well as everyone else. It's what they call "the industry standard." Drug manufacturing is very costly. To make a profit, you can either burn a lot of money to make a superior product that has to be sold at a high price, or you can cut corners to make a subpar product and sell it for cheap. If more people buy the cheap product, then you make more money by cutting corners. It doesn't even have to work. If people buy it, you make money.

In just about any industry, you'll find companies using either of those two approaches and succeeding. Some companies go for quality to sell to one market/demographic; others will go for cost effectiveness to sell to another market/demographic.

The intent of capitalism is to screw people just enough without going too far and having it come back to hurt you.

Buying pharmaceutical drugs is not the same as buying other goods. People don't just throw out their fluoxetine generic and switch to Prozac the way they might throw out bad Nikes and buy Addidas. For one, unless you have a medical lab in your backyard, you may not know that a product is bad for you until it kills you. You can see when your shoes start to wear out, but when your body wears out, it could be due to any number of reasons. It takes no education for a consumer to figure out if one brand of shoes lasts longer than another. Sometimes, it's just a subjective opinion of liking the way a product looks. That takes no education. But it takes a lot of education to understand pharmacology and biology. It also takes time for symptoms to show in a lot of cases. If your blood pressure doesn't go down after taking medication, is it because the med is ineffective, or is it because of some change to your diet? Or is something else affecting your metabolism? Often times, it takes weeks to see results or to get chemical levels high enough such that they would show in a blood draw, and that is a long enough time frame for a person to suffer permanent damage or even die. And since healthy people generally don't take meds, sick people do, when a patient dies, how do we know if it a matter of the illness or the treatment?

2)they're already screwing people now in many ways, like high fructose corn syrup and trans fat, and people evidently don't care about that (which isn't that bad if the consumer doesn't care about it, although many do like me)
I guess you mean the FDA when you say "they." Don't know if I mentioned it before, but the FDA has two heads, the drug head and the food head. They are separate departments; food is handled by its own office within the FDA. The standards for the food industry are not the same as that for the drug industry. The standards for drugs are much more strict. I think if we lessened the restrictions on drugs, we'd see the same things from the drug companies as we're seeing from the food companies.

If we can agree that bargain brand food is bad for you, I doubt we'd want to see bargain brand drugs. It'd be like the analysis that Ford was caught doing when it refused to fix a problem with the Pinto that caused the car to catch on fire during a collision. Ford found out that the projected cost of lawsuits was less than the projected cost of a recall, so it did nothing. However, collisions did happen, and people did die or were badly burnt as a result. If drug companies worked the same way, we'd see more of the same, but it would happen to a vulnerable population, people who are already ill or in bad health. And when someone in bad health dies, your immediate thought won't necessarily be to blame the medication they were on. The illness would shield drug companies from blame.

I think we'd get further if we set similar standards for the food industry as we already have for the drug industry. There is or was a new bill in consideration to make food producers maintain a paper trail for quality control procedures, something that drug companies have had to do for a long time. Regulations like that might improve food quality, as well as restrictions on artificial additives that lead to health problems. This might raise the costs of food, but it might also work as an incentive for food companies to invent other cost effective additives without those health risks. They don't like losing profit anymore than anyone else. But there's no incentive to change what they're already doing unless they are pressured in some way.

I would actually like to see the FDA dissolved and replaced by private companies that rate the safety of food and health products, like how Bonds are rated by S&P and Moody's. Private companies would probably do it much more efficiently than the FDA does.
One thing to keep in mind when you're considering things like that is that public institutions are held accountable to the citizens. The FDA is overseen by a government of publicly elected officials. This gives citizens some form of indirect control over what the FDA does. A private company has no such accountability. This is dangerous.

The current FDA commissioner was chosen by the president because she has a pharmaceutical background but no ties to industry. However, the FDA's separate office that deals solely with food is headed by a guy with ties to Monsanto. The speculation that some people draw from this is that the FDA is industry friendly when it comes to food, even though it is tough on drug companies. I don't know how real that is. I just know that the current standards for food are not as strict as they are for drugs.

The one most famous historical case involving the FDA concerns the Elixir Sulfanilamide disaster:

The Elixir Sulfanilamide disaster of 1937 was one of the most consequential mass poisonings of the 20th century. This tragedy occurred shortly after the introduction of sulfanilamide, the first sulfa antimicrobial drug, when diethylene glycol was used as the diluent in the formulation of a liquid preparation of sulfanilamide known as Elixir Sulfanilamide. One hundred five patients died from its therapeutic use. Under the existing drug regulations, premarketing toxicity testing was not required. In reaction to this calamity, the U.S. Congress passed the 1938 Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, which required proof of safety before the release of a new drug. The 1938 law changed the drug focus of the Food and Drug Administration from that of a policing agency primarily concerned with the confiscation of adulterated drugs to a regulatory agency increasingly involved with overseeing the evaluation of new drugs.
http://www.annals.org/content/122/6/456.abstract

Diethylene glycol, used to prepare the medication, is a chemical relative of anti-freeze and is poisonous.

More on how events unfolded here:
http://www.ashp.org/import/news/HealthSystemPharmacyNews/newsarticle.aspx?id=1443

I don't think pharmaceuticals can be treated like other consumer products. They are biochemical in nature, and that alone makes them far more dangerous than other products. Bad shoes are unlikely to kill you. Bad drugs can.

The purpose of a government is to protect its citizens, even if it means regulating businesses. Too much regulation would negatively impact the economy, but no regulation or ineffective regulation puts lives at risk. A government based regulatory institution is without a doubt less efficient than a privately run institution, but only government has the authority to do what a regulatory body needs to do in order to safeguard the public in the current political/economic system in place in the U.S. (and other countries). A private institution cannot force another private entity to recall a product, and it cannot force a company to shut down. A private institution has no authority over another private organization. It can only ostracize that company by withholding support, removing it from some list of approved companies, and/or notifying the public when a company is non-compliant. Only a government can force a company to shut down or take direct action to address a dangerous problem.

You can't benefit from a good economy if you're dead.

Edit: Sorry for that wall of text. I don't know how I ended up writing so much.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
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disproving determinism
To stay in business, you only need to do as well as everyone else. It's what they call "the industry standard." Drug manufacturing is very costly. To make a profit, you can either burn a lot of money to make a superior product that has to be sold at a high price, or you can cut corners to make a subpar product and sell it for cheap. If more people buy the cheap product, then you make more money by cutting corners. It doesn't even have to work. If people buy it, you make money.

In just about any industry, you'll find companies using either of those two approaches and succeeding. Some companies go for quality to sell to one market/demographic; others will go for cost effectiveness to sell to another market/demographic.
Drug manufacturing is very costly in part due to FDA regulations.

Again, markets adjust. If you put out a terrible product, people will stop buying it.

The intent of capitalism is to screw people just enough without going too far and having it come back to hurt you.
Wow. I mean, I guess you could say this is the intent of life, but I wouldn't think of it life this way.

The intent of capitalism is to promote mutually beneficial voluntary transactions. I trade some money to a company for a product and we are both better off as a result of the transaction.

Buying pharmaceutical drugs is not the same as buying other goods. People don't just throw out their fluoxetine generic and switch to Prozac the way they might throw out bad Nikes and buy Addidas. For one, unless you have a medical lab in your backyard, you may not know that a product is bad for you until it kills you. You can see when your shoes start to wear out, but when your body wears out, it could be due to any number of reasons. It takes no education for a consumer to figure out if one brand of shoes lasts longer than another. Sometimes, it's just a subjective opinion of liking the way a product looks. That takes no education. But it takes a lot of education to understand pharmacology and biology. It also takes time for symptoms to show in a lot of cases. If your blood pressure doesn't go down after taking medication, is it because the med is ineffective, or is it because of some change to your diet? Or is something else affecting your metabolism? Often times, it takes weeks to see results or to get chemical levels high enough such that they would show in a blood draw, and that is a long enough time frame for a person to suffer permanent damage or even die. And since healthy people generally don't take meds, sick people do, when a patient dies, how do we know if it a matter of the illness or the treatment?
Yes, medicine is complicated. But allegedly, some people have figured it out. Those people can create services for testing medicine and reporting efficacy to doctors (or even patients at large). They have an incentive to report efficacy well because no one will subscribe to their service if it is found out that they are wrong about medicine.

I guess you mean the FDA when you say "they." Don't know if I mentioned it before, but the FDA has two heads, the drug head and the food head. They are separate departments; food is handled by its own office within the FDA. The standards for the food industry are not the same as that for the drug industry. The standards for drugs are much more strict. I think if we lessened the restrictions on drugs, we'd see the same things from the drug companies as we're seeing from the food companies.
Of course it does. I was just giving an example of how the FDA isn't perfect with regards to health (and maybe it shouldn't be - if people want terrible food regardless of the health consequences)

If we can agree that bargain brand food is bad for you, I doubt we'd want to see bargain brand drugs. It'd be like the analysis that Ford was caught doing when it refused to fix a problem with the Pinto that caused the car to catch on fire during a collision. Ford found out that the projected cost of lawsuits was less than the projected cost of a recall, so it did nothing. However, collisions did happen, and people did die or were badly burnt as a result. If drug companies worked the same way, we'd see more of the same, but it would happen to a vulnerable population, people who are already ill or in bad health. And when someone in bad health dies, your immediate thought won't necessarily be to blame the medication they were on. The illness would shield drug companies from blame.
Uh, bargain brand drugs already exist. Tylenol, Advil, Aspirin, and their generic counterparts?

And the argument about people being already sick shielding companies from blame sort of makes sense, but how would you prevent this from happening with the FDA? If it's through testing, note that I am saying that the products would wind up being tested without the FDA, just more efficiently. I mean, why would a doctor prescribe you a medication that is untested?

I think we'd get further if we set similar standards for the food industry as we already have for the drug industry. There is or was a new bill in consideration to make food producers maintain a paper trail for quality control procedures, something that drug companies have had to do for a long time. Regulations like that might improve food quality, as well as restrictions on artificial additives that lead to health problems. This might raise the costs of food, but it might also work as an incentive for food companies to invent other cost effective additives without those health risks. They don't like losing profit anymore than anyone else. But there's no incentive to change what they're already doing unless they are pressured in some way.
It might improve food quality, and it might put some food companies out of business. People apparently like these unhealthy foods. What should change is people's eating habits. Note that you already see this occurring to some extent. How many foods were marketed as being healthy 10 years ago?

One thing to keep in mind when you're considering things like that is that public institutions are held accountable to the citizens. The FDA is overseen by a government of publicly elected officials. This gives citizens some form of indirect control over what the FDA does. A private company has no such accountability. This is dangerous.
No one votes with the FDA in mind. The FDA is accountable to politicians who are continually lobbied by drug companies (and receive campaign money from them).

Private companies, on the other hand, are directly accountable to consumers, since if you don't like their product or service, you can simply choose not to buy it. Thus private companies are actually more accountable than the FDA.

The one most famous historical case involving the FDA concerns the Elixir Sulfanilamide disaster:



http://www.annals.org/content/122/6/456.abstract

Diethylene glycol, used to prepare the medication, is a chemical relative of anti-freeze and is poisonous.

More on how events unfolded here:
http://www.ashp.org/import/news/HealthSystemPharmacyNews/newsarticle.aspx?id=1443
That company should have faced harsher penalties from lawsuits and the government because they actually killed people. But I'm sure they lost a lot of money anyway.

Regardless, what doctor is going to prescribe something like that?

I don't think pharmaceuticals can be treated like other consumer products. They are biochemical in nature, and that alone makes them far more dangerous than other products. Bad shoes are unlikely to kill you. Bad drugs can.
Yes. That doesn't mean that market mechanisms don't work the same way.

The purpose of a government is to protect its citizens, even if it means regulating businesses. Too much regulation would negatively impact the economy, but no regulation or ineffective regulation puts lives at risk. A government based regulatory institution is without a doubt less efficient than a privately run institution, but only government has the authority to do what a regulatory body needs to do in order to safeguard the public in the current political/economic system in place in the U.S. (and other countries). A private institution cannot force another private entity to recall a product, and it cannot force a company to shut down. A private institution has no authority over another private organization. It can only ostracize that company by withholding support, removing it from some list of approved companies, and/or notifying the public when a company is non-compliant. Only a government can force a company to shut down or take direct action to address a dangerous problem.
You want to know a regulation that would save hundreds of thousands of lives? Banning cars. Now obviously this would count under "too much regulation" but it goes to show that the government is not just about saving lives. Plus "too much regulation" is what we are having the debate about anyway - I think it is too much regulation. (also I don't see anything about saving lives or public health in the US Constitution ... sorry, I had to go there)

A private institution cannot "force" a company to shut down or recall a product, but if the private institution widely publicizes how bad the product is, they can make the company lose tons of money and perhaps even recall the product for the sake of public relations.

Of course, a company that has willfully endangered lives should still be punished, either through criminal prosecution or lawsuits from victims.
 

SuperBowser

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I thought that's exactly the point? You receive health care regardless of ability to pay, right? That requires others paying for your health care.
Moral argument(!). This was precisely my point of my last post. If you wish to solely discuss economics, you must drop this point because you are making as much of an emotional appeal as anybody else in this topic. Considering everybody pays taxes (except for a tiny minority), I think you paint an unfair picture of what happens. But ok. If it bothers you homeless people receive healthcare too, I guess you'll be happy to know they have terrible access to care and tend to receive sub-standard care in the UK too.


You cannot brush aside morals in the production of any national policy. You are creating a false dichotomy; morals enter the realm of economics as much as any other.

Healthcare exists for a couple of reasons. We demand it because every single citizen needs it regardless of their wage. We provide healthcare because people require their physical and mental well-being to be maintained. We use evidence-based medicine for the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness. In a system with limited resources we therefore allocate funding in the most effective manner to acheive this.

With such aims in mind, a framework such as the QALY system now becomes clear. Morals are involved in this system as much as any system you produce. By examining different factors such as the psycho-social and economic impact of different diseases, we can formulate objective systems to place management of minor backaches as a lower priority to treating breast cancer. Stating this is a morally relative conclusion and Mr Smith's differing views somehow negate such a system is an asinine point.


You keep stating a public health system is inefficient yet you do not substantiate your claim. Reality shows there is no correlation. Whatever study you examine. I'll follow reality rather than your head.

Of course people are more likely to seek health care when they do need it ... they are more likely to seek it when they don't need it also.

I don't see how I referenced a "welfare queen" at all.
Prove this claim.

This is not a major economic issue in nations with public health systems so why would such a problem blow out of proportion in America? The welfare queen is somebody who abuses the system; in your example, somebody who seeks unnecessary healthcare. It is honestly a miniscule proportion of people - nobody likes visiting the doctor and most people feel guilty for wasting a doctor's time. (Funnily enough, America somewhat suffers this problem anyway - people who attend A&E and fail to pay.) If you believe these hypothetical people will cause such economic turmoil that a public health system becomes too expensive, prove it. Not a fan of unsubstantiated claims. This topic has received research and the numbers aren't in your favour.

How is "needed care" defined here? This goes back to the moral argument anyway that doesn't have an obvious solution.

The rest of the paragraph is a good argument though (well except for the "support his family" emotional appeal). I don't think the figures add up that way and I don't think that many people will have this problem of radically uncontrolled illnesses in a free market anyway. But at least it is a good economic argument that uninsured people create other costs in the system.
This does not go back to the moral argument. The study defined "needed care" as: not filling prescriptions; getting a recommended test, treatment, or follow-up care; or visit a doctor or clinic when they had a medical problem.

When people do not do these things they reduce their capability to work. They become a burden. Sick people damage the economy and it is in society's interest to keep them healthy. If somebody can no longer provide for their family, it is a real economic concern.

Please read the study I provided. Americans were the most likely to miss out on needed care. This is an economic concern as much as anything else.

First sentence is another moral argument, and doesn't always make sense anyway (insert scenario here where the best treatment costs $1 billion and the second best costs $10).
I've answered this scenario enough times. You present these "moral dilemmas" as if public healthcare could not possibly devise systems to deal with new available treatments. It's silly.

I just don't understand where you are coming from anymore. You said it wasn't about morals, but this statement here "That is how it should be" sure makes it seem like it's about morals.
I don't think you understand medicine to be asking this. If I manage a patient's blood pressure, I already account for all of the things you apparently worry about. The management I choose balances all these problems. It accounts for the individual patient's case, long term risk reduction, the price of possible drug interventions, economic gain and individual gain. This is how it should be.

Your example of a diabetic man who does not "need" insulin is woefully superficial. You do not consider which management plan is most appropriate, his long-term risks, what the individual gains and losses are and the economic implications of such a choice. You simply care his insulin is free so he is more likely to choose it. This is poor medical practice in every dimension I can think of. You don't even know if you are saving money because you don't truly consider it.


I couldn't point to specific laws or anything. But the FDA makes it difficult to bring a product to market, as we agreed earlier.

True, that's why I outlined how private institutions could take up this role of doing research for the doctors. One obvious source of info is medical journals.

If this is in response to my question about allowing non-FDA approved medicines to be sold, then remember that there is a difference between a drug that gets rejected and one that just hasn't been approved yet. Many drugs are going to be approved, but only after an arduous process. It would be better for the companies if they could sell the product before that, but still have to advertise it as "NOT FDA APPROVED". It's entirely possible that the product will eventually get approved, in which case they can change the labeling to say "FDA APPROVED"
It's difficult to discuss the FDA with you when you seem to have no knowledge of the FDA. Most drug testing laws are in place for very good reason. If something has not been approved, it is not fit for public use. You absolutely cannot release drugs that do not meet testing standards because it is dangerous. Most developed nations base their laws on the Helsinki Declaration; perhaps you can tell me what you take issue with from here?

And no, information from medical journals is not enough :laugh:. You need professional bodies to ensure rigorous standards are kept, to examine the methodology of studies, to sift through the wealth of data within these journals and elsewhere and to stop data getting misconstrued. Privatising this process raises the issues El Nino brought up. I think you have a naive view of how the pharmaceutical industry function.

Yes, obviously. But how often are doctors going to prescribe untested, potentially dangerous drugs anyway?
You phrase the question as if the answer is obvious. But you should not make assumptions about things you have no knowledge of. Just a few decades ago doctors used to prescribe antiarrhythmic drugs following a myocardial infarction. They believed it to improve prognosis; the opposite was true. Doctors aren't superhuman. You can't expect them to know which drugs are good and which are not by themselves. This isn't what they are trained to do (though some can) and it is a very specialist job.

I'll leave the rest of the market discussion to El Nino.
 

ballin4life

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Well, it's basically that you don't understand how markets work and keep returning to a moral argument that everyone deserves to have health care regardless of ability to pay. You say that Americans go without "needed care", which is fine. But there is an implied argument that this is morally wrong, which is what I was pointing out.

Once the government gets involved in something, you think that that is the only way it can be done. For example, for many years the telephone industry was run by the government, and people thought that it could never function privately, but what do you know? Now it does.

You don't have any numbers on your side by the way, because THE US DOES NOT USE THE SYSTEM I AM PROPOSING.

edit: I know I cited this earlier, but here is a report on wait times in Canada (part of a larger 1 hour mini-documentary on health care)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XsRz***neg&feature=related


One more general point. Stop looking at the specifics of the examples I use - e.g. "No medical journals are not enough" - and look at the general point behind them. Medical journals are an example of private/semiprivate entities passing on information about health care. Why couldn't they pass on information specifically about the efficacy of new drugs, including the factors you mention?
 

SuperBowser

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What evidence would you like? You don't understand the health and pharmaceutical industries. It's ever so clear. I am not saying public healthcare is the only way to do something. I am simply commenting that your criticisms of public healthcare are misplaced. It was kind of hard for me to read your generalisations in this topic and not comment.

Please don't strawman me. You've been doing it throughout. I don't require a moral argument. Public healthcare systems can be just as economically viable as private. The proof is documented. You are the one who runs back to "moral" issues because you cannot refute what I say. When I speak of untreated Americans, there was no implied argument; maybe it's your own guilt speaking? You asked for economic proof and I answered. It is expensive to not treat sick people because the impact is much farther reaching than just that one sick person.

Regardless, morals are embedded in healthcare systems: by going against the very first step of public healthcare to make a private system, you are in effect making a moral decision too.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Con.../Nov/A-Survey-of-Primary-Care-Physicians.aspx. The most recent comprehensive study of healthcare systems of developed nations. There's more, but they all show the same thing; no correlation between healthcare system and cost. It does not just examine the US.

You worry free healthcare will promotes wasted resources; that more people will take unnecessary medications and more people will make unneccessary visits to the doctor. This is a positive claim on your behalf and a particularly illogical one. I don't see why I should provide proof. However, I can tell you right now it is really unlikely people in public healthcare systems are more likely to be medicated. Other factors will play a much larger role - e.g. national policy.

When I speak of medical practice, I am not using a moral argument. There are objective measures of good medical practice which you seemed to ignore in your diabetic man example. Both the below sources contain pretty reliable measures of good clinical practice. The US will not be too different. If patients are personally declining (or taking) a treatment based on its cost, then it is pretty likely poor clinical practice. Quality of care is important, whatever health system you put in place.

http://www.qof.ic.nhs.uk/
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Con.../Nov/A-Survey-of-Primary-Care-Physicians.aspx

I could provide a very exhaustive list of reasons for why regulations such as the Helsinki Declaration exist. However, I think it is self-explanatory. These are necessary hurdles for the pharmaceutical industry. If you cannot find a fault, I question your objections.



edit: just saw your edit so may as well answer here:

One more general point. Stop looking at the specifics of the examples I use - e.g. "No medical journals are not enough" - and look at the general point behind them. Medical journals are an example of private/semiprivate entities passing on information about health care. Why couldn't they pass on information specifically about the efficacy of new drugs, including the factors you mention?
Dude. Medicine is big. You need a professional organisation to do this in a systematic, clear and unbiased manner. There needs to be a way to summarise these findings and to produce documents such as guidelines for universal use by doctors. It's not as simple as reading one study and going "Oh. This drug is better.". Doctors cannot individually perform such a mammoth task. It would be ridiculous and frankly dangerous; I'd certainly opt out of receiving treatments in such a system.
 

El Nino

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Drug manufacturing is very costly in part due to FDA regulations.
I know.

Short reply, because I'm technically on the clock:

If a private institution were just as effective at regulating drug safety as the FDA, then wouldn't it cost the drug companies just as much to be regulated by them as it would to be overseen by the FDA?

The FDA standards for drug performance are based on scientific measures. A private institution would have to use the same measures to assure the same level of quality. In order to remain compliant, a drug company has to spend money to make sure they follow accepted procedures. This costs time and manpower to do.

Also, there's the paper trail requirement. The FDA standards for documentation operate from a legal perspective; if you did something, you have to have to in writing, or it doesn't count. You have to have something that would hold up in court for all operations at all times. If a private institution were to be as effective as the FDA in holding companies liable, they would need to make the same demands and put the same pressure on these companies.

In short, it would be just as costly to the drug company to be audited by a private organization as it would be to be audited by a government body. The efficiency of private institutions in general over public institutions only affects the regulatory body itself, as in with comparisons of how much the FDA spends in time and taxpayer money versus how much a private regulatory body would spend to get the same amount of work done. But the cost to the drug companies to remain compliant (to keep up with standards and regulations) would be the same, assuming that both public and private bodies are equally effective.

(also I don't see anything about saving lives or public health in the US Constitution ... sorry, I had to go there)
The U.S. Constitution is amendable, and that ability to be changed was one of the few things that made it different from other political systems at the time.

Furthermore, the constitution is the rulebook that determines when a law is "bad." It is not the parameter meant to encompass the range of all laws. As in, if a law violates the constitution, it can be struck down. But if a law covers ground not mentioned in the constitution, it cannot be struck down merely on the basis of not being covered in the constitution.
 

ballin4life

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SuperBowser,

Honestly, try reading my posts. I am not the one strawmanning.

For example, when did I EVER say or imply that it is "as simple as reading one study and going 'Oh. This drug is better.'" When did I say that doctors should individually determine which drugs are good, without outside input? Whatever reports that the FDA generates could be generated by a private company, a "professional organisation" as you call it. Enforcement is the real thing that could be an issue (and my arguments on that front go back to the debate about markets), but that's not what you are focusing on at all.

You say I keep running back to morals, but I have only brought up my moral argument like once (that I don't support use of force, e.g. taxation, to make one person pay for the care of another - and this moral principle has much much bigger applications than just health care, so I don't really want to get into a debate about that right now).

And keep citing a study about America's health care being worse than other places. I AM NOT ARGUING FOR AMERICA's SYSTEM.

Do you even know what system I am proposing?

Maybe just watch that news report mini-documentary "Sick in America". It has examples of people purchasing more expensive treatments because they don't care about costs. It has examples of people with Health Savings Accounts shopping around for treatments and getting lower prices. I mean, it seems like this would be the case due to incentives, but for whatever reason you won't accept that.



Anyway, the "needed care" point is an acceptable economic argument, but I'm curious as to how much economic inefficiency is caused by sick people who could get treated and return to work but can't afford it.

I don't see any mention of correlation in the study you linked, but even so, I don't know why there would be any correlation considering that no country has the system that I support anyway.

I know.

Short reply, because I'm technically on the clock:

If a private institution were just as effective at regulating drug safety as the FDA, then wouldn't it cost the drug companies just as much to be regulated by them as it would to be overseen by the FDA?

The FDA standards for drug performance are based on scientific measures. A private institution would have to use the same measures to assure the same level of quality. In order to remain compliant, a drug company has to spend money to make sure they follow accepted procedures. This costs time and manpower to do.

Also, there's the paper trail requirement. The FDA standards for documentation operate from a legal perspective; if you did something, you have to have to in writing, or it doesn't count. You have to have something that would hold up in court for all operations at all times. If a private institution were to be as effective as the FDA in holding companies liable, they would need to make the same demands and put the same pressure on these companies.

In short, it would be just as costly to the drug company to be audited by a private organization as it would be to be audited by a government body. The efficiency of private institutions in general over public institutions only affects the regulatory body itself, as in with comparisons of how much the FDA spends in time and taxpayer money versus how much a private regulatory body would spend to get the same amount of work done. But the cost to the drug companies to remain compliant (to keep up with standards and regulations) would be the same, assuming that both public and private bodies are equally effective.
To some extent this is true. My point though is that private entities are going to be more efficient at carrying out this regulatory process. They will generally do the same things that the government does, but more efficiently, with lower costs to themselves and lower costs to the drug companies.

The reason private companies will be more efficient is that they have an incentive to be, since being more efficient makes them more money. If a private regulatory company is inefficient, or does a bad job, it leads to room to be outcompeted by other private companies.

In general, this is why markets are more efficient than governments. Competition and profits provide an incentive for private companies to be more efficient.

The U.S. Constitution is amendable, and that ability to be changed was one of the few things that made it different from other political systems at the time.

Furthermore, the constitution is the rulebook that determines when a law is "bad." It is not the parameter meant to encompass the range of all laws. As in, if a law violates the constitution, it can be struck down. But if a law covers ground not mentioned in the constitution, it cannot be struck down merely on the basis of not being covered in the constitution.
Well, if we are going to have this debate...

The US Constitution is amendable, but I don't see an amendment granting additional powers to Congress over health.

The Constitution is not a "rulebook that determines when a law is 'bad'". Article 1, Section 8 specifically enumerates what powers Congress has.

Amendment 10 reads:

Amendment 10 said:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
This makes it even more clear that Congress has only the powers stated in the Constitution. All other powers are "reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
 

SuperBowser

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For example, when did I EVER say or imply that it is "as simple as reading one study and going 'Oh. This drug is better.'" When did I say that doctors should individually determine which drugs are good, without outside input? Whatever reports that the FDA generates could be generated by a private company, a "professional organisation" as you call it. Enforcement is the real thing that could be an issue (and my arguments on that front go back to the debate about markets), but that's not what you are focusing on at all.
Yes, enforcement is a real issue. This is covered already so I'll say no more. If you are proposing to replace the FDA with a new private organization that performs the exact same role, then I have no issue here. Sorry for any confusion. I thought you wanted to change more than this.

You mentioned you wish to reduce the cost of drugs. I don't see how enacting the exact same regulations through a private company will change costs of manufacturing. Because you have not mentioned any part of the drug approval process that bothers you it is difficult to discuss this further. "It should be easier to release drugs" is not an argument if you cannot substantiate this claim further. Simply making the release of drugs an easy process is dangerous unless you can state how to acheive this.

And keep citing a study about America's health care being worse than other places. I AM NOT ARGUING FOR AMERICA's SYSTEM.


I don't see any mention of correlation in the study you linked, but even so, I don't know why there would be any correlation considering that no country has the system that I support anyway.
No need to get mad. This research article examines more than one healthcare system. There are other private healthcare systems and other nationalised healthcare systems. It provides the costs of each healthcare system inside and there is no correlation. This was a direct response to your claim private healthcare is cheaper than public healthcare. I was not talking about American healthcare.

If no healthcare system within the study is like yours, it is interesting you believe you can create an original healthcare system more efficient than any known in the world. Call me skeptical. :)

You say I keep running back to morals, but I have only brought up my moral argument like once (that I don't support use of force, e.g. taxation, to make one person pay for the care of another - and this moral principle has much much bigger applications than just health care, so I don't really want to get into a debate about that right now).
I have brought up economic arguments. You call them moral.

e.g.
- a sick man who can no longer support his family.
- a patient that declines treatment purely to save money in the short term.

Anyway, the "needed care" point is an acceptable economic argument, but I'm curious as to how much economic inefficiency is caused by sick people who could get treated and return to work but can't afford it.
It's complicated. Butl we can look at hypertension. This American study examines a number of things. It looks at: prevalence and number of deaths related to cardiovascular disease; the relation of cardiovascular disease to hypertension; the costs of treating hypertension; the potential savings in costs by treating hypertension; the barriers to treatment of hypertension; the costs of treating people who present with cardiovascular complications; the indirect costs of people with cardiovascular complications (including lost productivity and death). Studies such as this are performed for most diseases. I'm kind of involved in one this year!

Funnily enough, this paragraph sums up quite nicely what I've been trying to say over the last few posts. You can hopefully see I am not using a moral argument. What I proposed is already considered in both public and private healthcare systems. If management guidelines are produced with economic analyses in mind, you need not worry when the diabetic man opts to take insulin.

Journal said:
Perhaps because hypertension is so common and its treatment often requires the use of more than a single medication, antihypertensive drug therapy is a common target of cost-cutting efforts. This approach may be faulty if it fails to take into account health care expenditures that may be offset by savings that occur due to blood pressure reduction (e.g., fewer MIs, strokes, or HF hospitalizations). Statewide initiatives to reduce health care costs by restricting outpatients' access to chronic medications have resulted in higher health care expenditures in a number of instances.40 For example, New Hampshire noted a 35% decline in the use of medications after implementation of a three-prescriptions/month/patient limit, compared with a similar Medicaid cohort in New Jersey that had no limitation. However, among the frail elderly population in New Hampshire, this initiative was associated with several unintended adverse effects, including a significant two-fold increased risk of admission to nursing homes.41 Although cost containment is a legitimate concern that must be addressed by health care providers, consumers, third-party payors, and public policy efforts, limitation of access to useful medications by administrative action appears to be “penny wise, but pound foolish.”
 

El Nino

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They will generally do the same things that the government does, but more efficiently, with lower costs to themselves and lower costs to the drug companies.
I think there may be a misconception that the FDA is actually responsible for the testing of drug products. It doesn't do anything of that nature. The testing is something that the drug companies themselves are responsible for. The FDA is responsible for overseeing their operations. All testing that is done has to conform to FDA standards, and all paperwork and results must be kept and made available during an audit.

Private companies may be more efficient in their own operations, but if they are to hold drug companies to the same standard that the FDA does, then they would have to impose the same guidelines. Meaning, the drug companies would still have to conduct their own testing and back it up with a paper trail. The cost to the companies would be the same.

The only way it would lessen is if the guidelines themselves become less strict, at which point, drug product would be considerably less safe.

The US Constitution is amendable, but I don't see an amendment granting additional powers to Congress over health.
The U.S. has the Center for Disease Control, a government organization that develops public health policy:

http://www.cdc.gov/about/
http://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/mission.htm

There is also the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services:

http://www.hhs.gov/about/

Other departments of the federal government include labor, energy, and education.

More on this later (if I have time)...

edit:

I don't actually have a stance on health care reform. Not at the moment anyway. I just know too much about drugs (the legal kind...).

Uh, bargain brand drugs already exist. Tylenol, Advil, Aspirin, and their generic counterparts?
Tylenol and Advil are still held up to FDA standards. The reason behind their cheap pricing has nothing to do with the makers cutting corners during the manufacturing process. The prices are low because there is a lot of competition from different brands of similar medication, and it is also an over the counter med that is in high demand. There is no shortage of customers, so the makers still can see a profit from their sales.

And the argument about people being already sick shielding companies from blame sort of makes sense, but how would you prevent this from happening with the FDA? If it's through testing, note that I am saying that the products would wind up being tested without the FDA, just more efficiently. I mean, why would a doctor prescribe you a medication that is untested?
I answered this before, but the drug companies themselves are responsible for their own safety testing. However, when something goes wrong, the FDA starts an investigation. All FDA inspectors are FBI trained. Even if the case isn't one of criminal intent, if there is something in the manufacturing process that is causing illness or death among consumers, then the FDA can shutdown the company. In a situation like that, only a governmental body has the authority to issue a shutdown. A private entity can't, and even if they went public with their findings, those findings are probably going to be challenged by another private entity hired by the company in hot water. Then the public doesn't know who to believe, and a lot more people are probably going to die as a result.

The Constitution is not a "rulebook that determines when a law is 'bad'". Article 1, Section 8 specifically enumerates what powers Congress has.
There's the written rule, and then there's the practice. Yes, maybe it'd be better if both of those things matched, but in real life, history has proved that they don't. The 10 Amendment was originally intended to limit the federal government so that it would not encroach on state rights. During the civil war, the federal government crushed the secessionist movement, even though the states technically had the right to secede.

Wow. I mean, I guess you could say this is the intent of life, but I wouldn't think of it life this way.
I am a cynic. I could use the 10th Amendment to explain that viewpoint.

The constitution is a piece of paper. In the end, my rights, your rights, everyone's rights, don't exist. They exist only at the discretion of someone or something stronger. They allow us to have those rights when we are not a threat to them, but they can take away those rights the moment when we do become a threat. NSA, Homeland Security, Gitmo, the charge of treason.... National security takes priority over human rights. It always has.

If that sounds mad emo and mopey, like I'm a nostalgic Southerner, I don't mean it that way. Consider the lives of the slaves. They lived in those conditions for that long under a government built on "freedom." And then there was the genocide of the Native tribes.

We are all crammed here on a planet with finite resources. Human rights are vague and arbitrary notions, a lawyer's pipe dream.

/politrikkks makes me emo. I didn't even weigh in on health care reform.

Edit2: You might be happy that some politician is proposing massive cuts to federal agencies, including the FDA. Expect mass deaths soon.

Okay, not really. Realistically, the FDA regulations are so deeply ingrained in the established protocols for drug makers that the system might be able to manage itself for a while. But I think if you see a large number of small startup drug companies popping up right after the FDA scales back its activities, that would probably be a bad sign.
 

ballin4life

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Yes, enforcement is a real issue. This is covered already so I'll say no more. If you are proposing to replace the FDA with a new private organization that performs the exact same role, then I have no issue here. Sorry for any confusion. I thought you wanted to change more than this.
Well, the other change is that there could be more than one of these organizations, leading to one of them getting out-competed if it does a terrible/inefficient job.

You mentioned you wish to reduce the cost of drugs. I don't see how enacting the exact same regulations through a private company will change costs of manufacturing. Because you have not mentioned any part of the drug approval process that bothers you it is difficult to discuss this further. "It should be easier to release drugs" is not an argument if you cannot substantiate this claim further. Simply making the release of drugs an easy process is dangerous unless you can state how to acheive this.
Will discuss farther down.

No need to get mad. This research article examines more than one healthcare system. There are other private healthcare systems and other nationalised healthcare systems. It provides the costs of each healthcare system inside and there is no correlation. This was a direct response to your claim private healthcare is cheaper than public healthcare. I was not talking about American healthcare.

If no healthcare system within the study is like yours, it is interesting you believe you can create an original healthcare system more efficient than any known in the world. Call me skeptical. :)
Even in the US healthcare is heavily subsidized, which is part of the problem.

Overall, there isn't that big of a problem with insurance/health savings accounts, instead there are 2 main issues that I find in the US system. The first is that health insurance is tied to your job due to tax loopholes (health benefits are not taxed at the same rate as salary), which is ridiculous. The second is consistently rising health care costs, which I think stem from other factors, like the difficulty bringing drugs to market, overzealous patent restrictions, messed up insurance system where insurance pays for everything, etc. That was my initial complaint, that the new US health care bill does not address these problems.

I have brought up economic arguments. You call them moral.

e.g.
- a sick man who can no longer support his family.
- a patient that declines treatment purely to save money in the short term.
Yes, we were talking about the first. I don't see how the second is economic, unless you are saying that he won't be able to work because he declines treatment.

Either way, I don't think that these would be issues under the system I propose. Perhaps the second one would still happen as people want to save money for their health savings accounts, but only for minor illnesses (sore throat, flu, etc), which isn't really a bad thing. You don't even really need to see a doctor for something as bad as strep throat, you just need a nurse practitioner to prescribe you some antibiotics (that's what I did when I had strep throat a few months back). This actually saves doctors time and lets them work on cases that actually require their expertise. Note that I don't think this effect would be large though anyway, just thought I'd mention it.

Funnily enough, this paragraph sums up quite nicely what I've been trying to say over the last few posts. You can hopefully see I am not using a moral argument. What I proposed is already considered in both public and private healthcare systems. If management guidelines are produced with economic analyses in mind, you need not worry when the diabetic man opts to take insulin.
I still don't think this would be an issue. Although there is something to be said for having incentives to live a healthy life. Many overweight people control their Type 2 diabetes fine with medication, but it would be much better to make healthier lifestyle choices and not ever get it at all.

I think there may be a misconception that the FDA is actually responsible for the testing of drug products. It doesn't do anything of that nature. The testing is something that the drug companies themselves are responsible for. The FDA is responsible for overseeing their operations. All testing that is done has to conform to FDA standards, and all paperwork and results must be kept and made available during an audit.

Private companies may be more efficient in their own operations, but if they are to hold drug companies to the same standard that the FDA does, then they would have to impose the same guidelines. Meaning, the drug companies would still have to conduct their own testing and back it up with a paper trail. The cost to the companies would be the same.

The only way it would lessen is if the guidelines themselves become less strict, at which point, drug product would be considerably less safe.
I don't think that the only way to lessen is if the guidelines become less strict. Remember, the FDA is a monopoly. It does not have to worry about competition. A private company would have more of an incentive to streamline processes like paperwork. A private company would have more of an incentive to finish its review quickly.

Also, there are other checks in the system besides the FDA, namely consumers and doctors. No, I don't expect every consumer or doctor to be an expert on every drug. But doing some research of your own before you take/prescribe a drug will be helpful. I know that my Dad does this already, and that's with things that the FDA has approved, because he cares a lot about side effects.

The U.S. has the Center for Disease Control, a government organization that develops public health policy:

http://www.cdc.gov/about/
http://www.cdc.gov/about/organization/mission.htm

There is also the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services:

http://www.hhs.gov/about/

Other departments of the federal government include labor, energy, and education.

More on this later (if I have time)...
Yeah, I don't think any of these are constitutional. I don't recall seeing any of these in the Constitution.

Tylenol and Advil are still held up to FDA standards. The reason behind their cheap pricing has nothing to do with the makers cutting corners during the manufacturing process. The prices are low because there is a lot of competition from different brands of similar medication, and it is also an over the counter med that is in high demand. There is no shortage of customers, so the makers still can see a profit from their sales.
Yes. More competition is good. It also depends on what you mean by "cutting corners", but I'd venture a guess that the makers of Tylenol and Advil are much more efficient at producing them than the makers of other drugs that are not subject to competition (like ones that are patented, or have lower demand and thus fewer companies that make them). In order to succeed in the Tylenol/Advil market, you have to be really efficient due to that competition, which leads to lower prices.

I answered this before, but the drug companies themselves are responsible for their own safety testing. However, when something goes wrong, the FDA starts an investigation. All FDA inspectors are FBI trained. Even if the case isn't one of criminal intent, if there is something in the manufacturing process that is causing illness or death among consumers, then the FDA can shutdown the company. In a situation like that, only a governmental body has the authority to issue a shutdown. A private entity can't, and even if they went public with their findings, those findings are probably going to be challenged by another private entity hired by the company in hot water. Then the public doesn't know who to believe, and a lot more people are probably going to die as a result.
A private company that gets hired by drug companies to defend their products would not have much credibility.

Remember also that drug companies want to make good products. They know that if they release drugs that don't work, people will stop buying from them.

There's the written rule, and then there's the practice. Yes, maybe it'd be better if both of those things matched, but in real life, history has proved that they don't. The 10 Amendment was originally intended to limit the federal government so that it would not encroach on state rights. During the civil war, the federal government crushed the secessionist movement, even though the states technically had the right to secede.
Agreed. The Constitution gets broken all the time now.

I am a cynic. I could use the 10th Amendment to explain that viewpoint.

The constitution is a piece of paper. In the end, my rights, your rights, everyone's rights, don't exist. They exist only at the discretion of someone or something stronger. They allow us to have those rights when we are not a threat to them, but they can take away those rights the moment when we do become a threat. NSA, Homeland Security, Gitmo, the charge of treason.... National security takes priority over human rights. It always has.
The existence of human rights is debatable. I still don't think that it is morally right for the government to do these things, regardless of whether human rights exist or are societal constructions.

Edit2: You might be happy that some politician is proposing massive cuts to federal agencies, including the FDA. Expect mass deaths soon.

Okay, not really. Realistically, the FDA regulations are so deeply ingrained in the established protocols for drug makers that the system might be able to manage itself for a while. But I think if you see a large number of small startup drug companies popping up right after the FDA scales back its activities, that would probably be a bad sign.
Or it could lead to more competition with lower prices and better drugs for everyone.


Edit: Just read an article that claims the US Government spends more per capita on health care than any other country. That's pretty damning for a supposedly "private" system.
 

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Yes, we were talking about the first. I don't see how the second is economic, unless you are saying that he won't be able to work because he declines treatment.
The second example is economic for the reasons I have highlighted previously. It is summarised by the hypertension study I quoted above. By declining treatment due to a superficial price, this patient is not managing their disease in the most effective manner possible (leading to greater morbidity), increases their long-term risk of complications and therefore increases the risk of being a burden on society as a whole. It is possible that a treatment is so expensive that it is cheaper as a whole for the patient to decline it; this is what economic analyses are performed for. It is also poor medical practice to turn away such patients (not only in a moral sense, but objectively). Very few drugs are prescribed that are not economically viable.

ballin4life said:
I still don't think this would be an issue. Although there is something to be said for having incentives to live a healthy life. Many overweight people control their Type 2 diabetes fine with medication, but it would be much better to make healthier lifestyle choices and not ever get it at all.
Let's hope public health sort this one out. It's pretty difficult.

I don't think that the only way to lessen is if the guidelines become less strict. Remember, the FDA is a monopoly. It does not have to worry about competition. A private company would have more of an incentive to streamline processes like paperwork. A private company would have more of an incentive to finish its review quickly.

Also, there are other checks in the system besides the FDA, namely consumers and doctors. No, I don't expect every consumer or doctor to be an expert on every drug. But doing some research of your own before you take/prescribe a drug will be helpful. I know that my Dad does this already, and that's with things that the FDA has approved, because he cares a lot about side effects.
Most doctors already do what you describe. However, this is rather different to what the FDA does. Additonally, specialists only have time to examine drugs within their own field. They rely on others for everything else. Or if you are just starting out as a doctor, you rely on others for everything!

With no disrespect, I don't believe consumers have the ability to follow the pharmaceutical industry in the slightest. Most doctors cannot. When I visited America, one of the stangest things that hit me was the drug advertisements on television - there were ads of treatments for chronic kidney disease and COPD.

Just read an article that claims the US Government spends more per capita on health care than any other country. That's pretty damning for a supposedly "private" system.
Indeed. Particularly once you examine what the average American receives for the most expensive healthcare system in the world.

I feel like the pharmaceutical industry deserves its own topic. It's large, important and complicated. Shall I make one?
 

ballin4life

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Should just merge all the posts from this thread into a new one or something.

Anyway, the fact that the US government spends more per capita on health care than all the other countries is pretty good evidence that it isn't really a private, market based system.

I don't understand what your point is about specialists only looking at drugs in their own field? Why would they look at other drugs? Presumably they will only prescribe drugs from their own field, right?

Also, if the government is paying for all drugs, how are the prices supposed to be set? Do the drug companies just set whatever price they want, or what? Not sure if I mentioned this before, but it sprang to mind.

One last brief point: I think it's arguable that "most drugs prescribed are economically viable" The whole problem is caused by these drugs being too expensive. Of course, I think there are other factors causing that, but it just seemed like a strange thing to say.
 

SuperBowser

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I don't understand what your point is about specialists only looking at drugs in their own field? Why would they look at other drugs? Presumably they will only prescribe drugs from their own field, right?
Difficult to get this point across. A patient does not just suffer one problem. I might have a stroke and end up on the neurosurgical team. They still need to manage (and at least have a basic knowledge of) my diabetes, my cardiovascular medications, my psoriasis, my schizophrenia etc.

It is unreasonable to expect a single doctor to follow the pharmaceutical developments in all of these fields. There are too many drugs, too many studies, too many advancements, too many conflicting opinions for one human to decipher.



Drug companies do set prices themselves. Sometimes governments help fund research in return for a cut.

When I say economically viable it is in direct response to your previous "dilemmas". The man who takes antihypertensive medications instead of lifestyle advice and the diabetic man who takes insulin instead of attempting lifestyle changes. Research has been carried out on the different management options; it is cheaper for these people to take medications than to not. Unfortunately, this does not mean a healthcare system will necessarily be in good financial shape.


I'll make a topic.
 

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EDIT: Oh yeah the FDA is unconstitutional too. Had to get that in there :)
Funny you should mention this a few days ago (which I agree of course) and now this:

http://www.examiner.com/liberal-in-...judge-rules-health-care-bill-unconstitutional

So of course the Administration will appeal and it'll go to the Supreme Court. How will they decide? I'm taking bets :D I expect they'll decree that forcing Americans to have insurance (of ANY kind) is a state's rights issue. Thing is Flood Insurance for example is Federally required if you wish to borrow money to build in a designated flood zone. This isn't the same as what the Health Care bill was requiring, of course... but it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
 

ballin4life

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Epic LOL at the opening line of the article:

Article said:
In a painfully (if not laughably) ironic act of judicial activism on Monday, U.S. District Judge Roger Vinson of Pensacola, FL, struck down President Obama's and the 111th Congress's landmark health care reform bill
It's an ironic act of judicial activism to strike down a clearly unconstitutional law? That's what they are supposed to do. The main objection to judicial activism is usually that it expands the powers of Congress.

The article also has some lol correlation causation too.


I'm not sure that it was struck down for the right reasons though. The correct reason would of course be that there is no mention of health care or health insurance in the Constitution.
 

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What they should probably do is start discussing making amendments to the constitution, to properly evaluate what powers the federal government should or should not have. The world has changed a lot since the constitution was conceived. But the process of even attempting an amendment would be met with such strong resistance that it wouldn't be worth it.
 

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I'm not sure that it was struck down for the right reasons though. The correct reason would of course be that there is no mention of health care or health insurance in the Constitution.
Well there's plenty of laws on the books that address things that aren't mentioned in the Constitution, such as Piracy, Drug Use, etc. His issue was with how mandated health care related to the Commerce Clause in the constitution.

"The ruling (which those who are following the issue will find well worth reading) found that the individual-mandate portion of the law, which requires citizens to buy health insurance or pay a penalty, "falls outside the boundary of Congress' Commerce Clause authority." And because the individual mandate is "indisputably necessary" to the act, the entire law, Judge Vinson decided, falls." -source


What they should probably do is start discussing making amendments to the constitution, to properly evaluate what powers the federal government should or should not have. The world has changed a lot since the constitution was conceived. But the process of even attempting an amendment would be met with such strong resistance that it wouldn't be worth it.
Yeah, that occurred to me as well... I dunno. The famous 3/5's compromise etched into the 1st article of the constitution could only be rendered moot by the 13th amendment. But then you have amendments like prohibition which didn't actually address anything in the original constitution, but rather was used as a means to further the temperance movement, and we know how that turned out. Since there's already the 10th amendment stating 'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people," things like this Health Care Reform Bill if decided is unconstitutional by the supreme court, would simply have to be revised to not be federally required, but state required. But then as I was alluding to, such a ruling would put into question Flood Insurance mandates, which should technically become a state's right also in that case, unless the money being borrowed is federal money, like a USDA loan. :urg:
 

ballin4life

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Well there's plenty of laws on the books that address things that aren't mentioned in the Constitution, such as Piracy, Drug Use, etc. His issue was with how mandated health care related to the Commerce Clause in the constitution.

"The ruling (which those who are following the issue will find well worth reading) found that the individual-mandate portion of the law, which requires citizens to buy health insurance or pay a penalty, "falls outside the boundary of Congress' Commerce Clause authority." And because the individual mandate is "indisputably necessary" to the act, the entire law, Judge Vinson decided, falls." -source
Those are all unconstitutional as well (except Piracy if you mean like Pirates on the Ocean)

US Constitution said:
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
Essentially, I disagree with the "loose" interpretation of the Commerce Clause that says that anything you do counts as interstate commerce. To me, interstate commerce means, you know, actually moving things between states, but courts have "interpreted" it to apply to things like growing plants in your own state for consumption within your state.
 

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True, that clause has been interpreted over the years, but for good reason.

In USSC decision Gonzales v. Raich:

The Commerce Clause emerged as the Framers' response to the central problem giving rise to the Constitution itself: the absence of any federal commerce power under the Articles of Confederation. For the first century of our history, the primary use of the Clause was to preclude the kind of discriminatory state legislation that had once been permissible. Then, in response to rapid industrial development and an increasingly interdependent national economy, Congress “ushered in a new era of federal regulation under the commerce power,” beginning with the enactment of the Interstate Commerce Act in 1887 and the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890.
Illegal downloads I can understand because normally the material rests on a host server not in the same state (or even country) as the user's. Drug legislation I'll agree has often stretched beyond jurisprudence and relied upon moral interpretation. But because drug trafficking is often across borders, it still falls under commerce laws, unless it's as you say, grown here for here, in which case it's less a federal matter and more a state matter. I'd estimate this is why Mendocino County is able to avoid the DEA and US Army National Guard from blockading the whole area and going door to door to bust folks.
 

ballin4life

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The DEA does do drug raids in California, even for operations that produce marijuana only for medical purposes under California medical marijuana laws.

Even if you are producing marijuana in California for distribution in Nevada, the Federal government has no basis to make the production of marijuana illegal. They can only make the transportation across state lines illegal.

But anyway, "rapid industrial development and an increasingly interdependent national economy" are not reasons to do unconstitutional things.
 

El Nino

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But anyway, "rapid industrial development and an increasingly interdependent national economy" are not reasons to do unconstitutional things.
No, but they are reasons to re-evaluate the constitution and consider amending it. Which won't happen due to the nature of politics in the U.S. and the time scale on which it operates.

I find it ironic that health care reform is declared unconstitutional but the Patriot Act is still in effect. The politicians have their priorities, and neither "human rights" nor "upholding the ideals of the constitution" are one of them.
 

ballin4life

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Patriot Act should be struck down by the courts too.

And I agree: if you want to change the constitution then amend it. Don't come up with a ridiculous interpretation of plain English which counts growing plants in your own state as interstate commerce.
 

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http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2011/02/07/protect-life-will-thereprice-paid

This thing could totally divide us as a country, not that we aren't already divided by pro-life pro-choice but... as I recall saying in a thread on abortion, defining when a human life is a human life is key in deciding when if ever is it okay to terminate that life for _____ reason(s). These people want it to be at the moment of conception, which coincides with the Catholic Church's view. But from this we see the slippery slope that was evidenced in several previous debates (gosh aren't we smart.) Doctors refusing treatment if it may hurt the fetus? **** victims losing rights? Language changes abound, this thing could really wind up in a bad place. And what's worse, doctors are actually going along with it. Now granted a doctor may feel as if it's medically, and scientifically honest to say that human life starts at the moment of conception. But as I argued, that shouldn't mean equal rights on down the line. The rights of a few blobs of cells < me.
 

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So you're saying that life begins at an arbitrary time defined by humanity, based on contextual factors such the ever changing field of science, modern technology's capacity to sustain the baby outside the womb, and the factors surrounding the woman's conception.

Yeah that sounds a whole lot better to me.....
 
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It is. It's certainly more pragmatic. Your claim is also more or less completely arbitrary. Replace "becomes self-aware" with "becomes more than one cell" in my theory and you have yours. Now tell me this-why is it more important to be at a certain stage of cellular development instead of a certain stage of mental development? After all, self-awareness is what separates humans from almost every other species. It's one of the only things we're good at, and it is, IMO, the point where a human should gain rights for being a human. Before that point, all you have is something with the potential to become human, and that's present several million times each time someone ejaculates, and once every time you have your period.
 

ballin4life

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After all, self-awareness is what separates humans from almost every other species. It's one of the only things we're good at, and it is, IMO, the point where a human should gain rights for being a human.
Prove it. Animals could be self aware too.

Also it sounds like you're saying that babies aren't really humans. After all, are they really self aware? Do you remember being a baby?

I actually do think that in some ways babies are "less" human than adult humans for this reason, but that's a much, much deeper claim that I'm not sure you are trying to make. Also I definitely don't think that babies being "less" human means babies don't have rights.

Before that point, all you have is something with the potential to become human, and that's present several million times each time someone ejaculates, and once every time you have your period.
Yeah I agree with this though. I mean, I can argue that every sperm and every egg are potentially human. At the least, you can say that every person who doesn't reproduce as often as possible is "killing" his/her potential children.
 
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Prove it. Animals could be self aware too.
Certain animals (mostly other primates, IIRC also dolphins) are. There's a fairly easy test for this one; put them in front of a mirror and see how they react; if they think it's some other being or realize that it's them. AFAIK, that's the method of proving it.

Also it sounds like you're saying that babies aren't really humans. After all, are they really self aware? Do you remember being a baby?
Uh... yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I am saying. You become self-aware usually between what, 1 and 3 years or so?

I actually do think that in some ways babies are "less" human than adult humans for this reason, but that's a much, much deeper claim that I'm not sure you are trying to make. Also I definitely don't think that babies being "less" human means babies don't have rights.
Nope, it's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to claim. Just like conception is arbitrary, so is birth, and neither is particularly deserving of human rights. Although in general, the underlying philosophy behind it is my critique on the entire concept of not just rights overall, but more specifically the idea human rights; rights you get just for being human. I take issue with that, but I'm having trouble formulating my ideas correctly...

(Just to be clear: my claim centers less around that babies are human or not and more around that they simply don't deserve rights; that you don't deserve certain rights just by being a certain species).
 

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It is. It's certainly more pragmatic. Your claim is also more or less completely arbitrary. Replace "becomes self-aware" with "becomes more than one cell" in my theory and you have yours.
While I do support you in the rejection of the "multi-cellular organism" cutoff, being able to kill 1 year olds who aren't self-aware is REALLY inhumane. I'd favor a cutoff more along the lines of brain activity or something similar. You two are really almost at the extreme opinions on the issue.
 

ballin4life

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I want to point out that I NEVER said anything about killing 1 year olds sparta style or anything like that.




Certain animals (mostly other primates, IIRC also dolphins) are. There's a fairly easy test for this one; put them in front of a mirror and see how they react; if they think it's some other being or realize that it's them. AFAIK, that's the method of proving it.
Don't see how this proves anything. Just because you don't understand mirrors doesn't mean you aren't self aware.

Also prove that rocks aren't self aware too please :p

Uh... yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I am saying. You become self-aware usually between what, 1 and 3 years or so?
I don't directly remember anything before age 4 or so.

Nope, it's pretty much exactly what I'm trying to claim. Just like conception is arbitrary, so is birth, and neither is particularly deserving of human rights. Although in general, the underlying philosophy behind it is my critique on the entire concept of not just rights overall, but more specifically the idea human rights; rights you get just for being human. I take issue with that, but I'm having trouble formulating my ideas correctly...

(Just to be clear: my claim centers less around that babies are human or not and more around that they simply don't deserve rights; that you don't deserve certain rights just by being a certain species).
Would you say that someone who is in a coma deserves rights? After all, they aren't self aware. What about someone who is blackout drunk?
 

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I always did draw my personal line for the entire issue based on brain development as well. Ultimately it is our minds that separate us from the animals, and what makes us value human life over the lives of other creatures. By no means however do I believe that life instantly begins at conception. I have a hard time wrapping my idea around the idea of a single cell having the same rights and such as me.

I draw my line at a point in brain development and activity.
 

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BPC- It isn't about cellular development, it's the fact that it is when it become a unified organism whose function is to then develop into a mature human. Human beings cannot be achieved without this process.

For a fetus not to be a human, there would have to be multiple ways of achieving the human stage, and those multiple ways would not be considered humans. Instead, we have one organism, which develops all the way into mature adulthood.

And if the criteria for hunanhood is displaying capacities beyond animals (ie. rational thinking) then born babies wouldn't be considered human either.
 
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Don't see how this proves anything. Just because you don't understand mirrors doesn't mean you aren't self aware.
I was told that that was one of the most useful methods for determining if something is self-aware or not. And now I can't find a source. I'll ask my ethics teacher later today.

Also prove that rocks aren't self aware too please :p
No brain activity, not alive, etc.

Would you say that someone who is in a coma deserves rights? After all, they aren't self aware. What about someone who is blackout drunk?
Tough call to make. Same issue comes up with sleeping. Not sure, tbh.

BPC- It isn't about cellular development, it's the fact that it is when it become a unified organism whose function is to then develop into a mature human. Human beings cannot be achieved without this process.

For a fetus not to be a human, there would have to be multiple ways of achieving the human stage, and those multiple ways would not be considered humans. Instead, we have one organism, which develops all the way into mature adulthood.
Fair enough, but as said, I take less issue with "calling fetuses human" and more with "giving ever human rights". On a philosophical level, anyways. Pragmatically speaking, I do take issue with that, because quite frankly there's no brain there. Even if they are humans, it's akin to taking someone like Terri Schiavo who is braindead off of life support. They can't think, they don't know that they exist, they are akin to animals. And beyond that, they are entirely at the mercy of their parents.

And if the criteria for hunanhood is displaying capacities beyond animals (ie. rational thinking) then born babies wouldn't be considered human either.
Pretty much what I'm saying, yep.
 

ballin4life

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I was told that that was one of the most useful methods for determining if something is self-aware or not. And now I can't find a source. I'll ask my ethics teacher later today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

I think that it shows something, but not necessarily self awareness. It might be possible to be self aware without having any sensations of the outside world at all (in the "I think therefore I am" way).

No brain activity, not alive, etc.
Prove that brain activity or being alive are necessary for self awareness :p


By the way, I'm joking around so you don't actually have to respond ... just food for thought that philosophical self awareness probably can't be demonstrated scientifically.
 

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Oct 29, 2009
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Dre4789
Well BPC has defined self awareness as necessary for the right to life, but that's completely arbitrary.
 
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