Did Sakurai do a good job at evening out the competitive side of Brawl?

[Truegamer#1]

Just like the Title

I honestly think so,
I mean no L canceling + no directional air dodge(wave dashing)
its hard for me to adapt to the new fighting engine of Smash Bros Brawl, but I think I'll manage, will u?
discuss...

 

[Pink Reaper]

Nope, I'm gonna stick with melee for a competitive game. I'll play brawl for the fun that's to be had like in SSE and for random groups of friends, but when I want to get my competitive on, I'll play melee.

 

[Vijin]

Only time will tell.
I'm more upset at some of the controls more than the fact that wavedashing and L-canceling is out.
Seems like the game is unresponsive at some times. Besides though, it seems good so far.

 

[kr3wman]

The lack of L-canceling certainly evens out some of the characters, but, like Vijin said, only time will tell.

 

[Remian]

I love the new balanced out system of Brawl. I really hope this picks up competitively and eventually replaces Melee.

 

[Hellbeing]

Brawl is extremely competitive, me and my friends were doing online matches for the last 2 days continuously

edit: And l-canceling was a glitch/exploit wich sakurai never put in in the first place.

 

[Yuna]

Question:
What possible benefit is there to "evening out" the competitive side? It's dumbing it down, making the game limited and less deep. The less technical it is, the faster you'll reach peak technical potential. There will be little to improve once you reach that point and have learned everything there is to know about the characters' metagames.

Since everything's easier to do from a technical standpoint, you also won't screw up as much, which makes the game even a bigger turtling game.

And still, what possible benefit could you get from dumbing the game down? People who weren't Competitive players back in Melee's days won't magically become better than the Competitive people now. Competitive people are competitive because they play the game on a "different" level. They try to learn everything about the game and develop strategies that Casual players couldn't even dream of (since Competitive players not only consult themselves but each other in the forming of strategies).

In Melee, Casual players didn't care about Competitive Smash (or at least its level). They chose not to wavedash, L-cancel and whatnot. It was their choice. Our choice was to use all of that. Now a lot of it is gone. Is it better? Why? Because both sides are now left with no choice (since they're gone)?

Why would you go out of your way to "level the playing field" to make the skill gap between Casual and Competitive smaller? From a Competitive standpoint, that's illogical. Heck, from a Casual stand point, it's still illogical. Why would someone wish for a game to make it easier for you to become as good as the best in the game (as some claims Brawl is, I disagree, but the gap is smaller now, yeah)? That means that there's little reward to investing time into becoming good at the game.

You can spend years improving at the game and yet the level you play it on won't be that much different from the level Casual #521 plays it on. It means that the rewards for hard work is much smaller now. Is that really what we want? A game where you don't get that much from investing years into becoming good at it?

The Casual players will still play on a Casual level with a Casual mindset. Those who did not wish to invest a lot of time into Melee still won't automatically invest a lot of time into Brawl because it's now easier from a technical standpoint.

 

[HK-50]

Brawl is extremely competitive, me and my friends were doing online matches for the last 2 days continuously

edit: And l-canceling was a glitch/exploit wich sakurai never put in in the first place.

dontthinksotim.jpg

 

[Yuna]

edit: And l-canceling was a glitch/exploit wich sakurai never put in in the first place.

O RLY? Then explain why it's in SSB64 and why they had a tutorial on how to do it on the official SSB64 homepage.

I guess the homepage glitched as well.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I believe so.

 

[Eggm]

Nope, I'm gonna stick with melee for a competitive game. I'll play brawl for the fun that's to be had like in SSE and for random groups of friends, but when I want to get my competitive on, I'll play melee.

This is how anyone who likes competitive fighting games should feel. Too bad theres so many washed up melee players who don't feel this way cause they like having a chance to win at a new game. Theres also the melee players who were good and wanna steal money from scrubs. And lets not forget the joined smashbaords 2008 newbs who say the same things like its not melee 2.0 over and over and its slower so theres more mind games. The competitive brawl community is ********, everyone should think like this guy I quoted hes a smart man.

Edit : I understand there are expectations to every rule, but I think everyone who is even remotely into the smash competitive community will realize that this is generally true.

 

[Ichida]

I love the new balanced out system of Brawl. I really hope this picks up competitively and eventually replaces Melee.

QFT.

I'm just glad to get in on this one right from the start, as opposed to getting left in Melee's dust, as well.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

He did a good job trying to abolish the competitive side of Brawl.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

He did a good job trying to abolish the competitive side of Brawl.

That he did. And frankly, I love Sakurai for that.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Brawl is extremely competitive, me and my friends were doing online matches for the last 2 days continuously

edit: And l-canceling was a glitch/exploit wich sakurai never put in in the first place.

Typical ignorant moron.

 

[joeysmash]

brawl is balanced...ER.

New Techiniques inplemented

Brawl has a winner a loser.

Brawl will be competive

 

[Pi]

I think everyone who is happy that the competitive scene has been 'leveled' (due to the lack of wavedashing and L-canceling) really isn't that happy.

Because now when they get beat down they won't have any excuse like 'oh well he uses advanced techs.'

There is no advantage to it, the only people who would be happy that we've made the transition are those who were not the best and were not striving to be the best. Since now everyone's starting out on equal footing they have another shot which they know they won't take but since the window is open they are enjoying the view. It'll fade soon and we'll discover advanced techs and what not and they'll come up with more excuses to why they lost and we'll fall into the same **** as melee, only on a less technically skilled game.


My friend came over today and we had a few 1 v 1's. In Melee I usually 2/3 stocked him in a 4 stock match, any way we played about 4/5 matches and I 3 stocked him once, and the others were kind of close. He never beat me once. This tells me that even though it's a new game, the standards are still going to be some what the same. And now we're stuck with a lesser game and in a few years the causal players will still be *****ing.



But personally, Brawl could have been a lot worse and a lot better. So I'll play it, and I'll strive to be the best, and it'll be fun. I do regret having to leave Melee behind, though.

 

[BlackYoshi7]

It's funny how the complaints on this board almost EXACTLY mirror the transition from CS 1.6 to CS Source. The complaints about it being dumbed down, made easier, etc, how they'll never play it competitively, and so on. Then in few years most people have moved onto the new game.

When you invest a lot of time into something and then it gets invalidated by a new thing, you feel like you have to shun the new thing in order to keep your time worthwhile. The fact is, most of the scene is going to transition to Brawl, and most of the money will too, and where the money is, the players will go.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

I think everyone who is happy that the competitive scene has been 'leveled' (due to the lack of wavedashing and L-canceling) really isn't that happy.

Because now when they get beat down they won't have any excuse like 'oh well he uses advanced techs.'

There is no advantage to it, the only people who would be happy that we've made the transition are those who were not the best and were not striving to be the best. Since now everyone's starting out on equal footing they have another shot which they know they won't take but since the window is open they are enjoying the view. It'll fade soon and we'll discover advanced techs and what not and they'll come up with more excuses to why they lost and we'll fall into the same **** as melee, only on a less technically skilled game.


My friend came over today and we had a few 1 v 1's. In Melee I usually 2/3 stocked him in a 4 stock match, any way we played about 4/5 matches and I 3 stocked him once, and the others were kind of close. He never beat me once. This tells me that even though it's a new game, the standards are still going to be some what the same. And now we're stuck with a lesser game and in a few years the causal players will still be *****ing.



But personally, Brawl could have been a lot worse and a lot better. So I'll play it, and I'll strive to be the best, and it'll be fun. I do regret having to leave Melee behind, though.

Perfect example of join date not being important/

 

[Darkslash]

L-Canceling is one of the Official Advance techs like Short Hopping
Wavedashing is supposedly a "Glitch"

Well any ways, the only thing to do is adapt with a new Controller

and besides did any one check their Skill levels now that the wave dash is out?

 

[180OP]

Brawl will be competitive. Many top Melee players have made the transition.

Melee is just too old for me to go back to even though competitively it is more equipped than Brawl.

competitive success of a game is measured by how many competitors there are. The competitive fan base of Brawl is already or is going to be huge because there is lots of relearning to do.

I played SSB64 online a few days ago and that game, without all the advance techs of Melee save L cancelling, is still **** fun competitively.

Even basic things like grabbing the ledge by facing your back to the ledge is not there and it is still competitive.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Darkslash-Wavedashing was not a glitch


Brawl's competative scene does not look like it will be as good as melee's competative scene at this point. It's possible that we will find new techniques, but it's also possible that there won't be any new techniques (or at least influential ones). The combo system was completely thrown out in favor of a turtling system, which is not a good thing for a fighting game. Recovery was made to auto sweetspot, which takes out pretty much every form of on stage edgeguarding. Stun was reduced so much that now the someone being hit by an attack has just as many options as the person hitting them, which is completely ********.

SSB64 had Z-canceling, which was a lot more broken than L-canceling, dispite being intentional.

 

[_rdm_]

from what ive seen i gotta go with melee is harder. I am not big in the smash scene but i do play games competitivly. Brawl has so many points that slow a player down.

 

[spyk90]

reply

I think by removing L-canceling and wave dashing, it allowed more casual players, who could not compete as well with higher players, to become more competitive. In my opinion, I think Brawl will be much more fun since all the characters are almost balanced. This way, tournaments won't have a small handful of high tier characters.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

@Darkslash-Wavedashing was not a glitch


Brawl's competative scene does not look like it will be as good as melee's competative scene at this point. It's possible that we will find new techniques, but it's also possible that there won't be any new techniques (or at least influential ones). The combo system was completely thrown out in favor of a turtling system, which is not a good thing for a fighting game. Recovery was made to auto sweetspot, which takes out pretty much every form of on stage edgeguarding. Stun was reduced so much that now the someone being hit by an attack has just as many options as the person hitting them, which is completely ********.

SSB64 had Z-canceling, which was a lot more broken than L-canceling, dispite being intentional.

Oh it's all so true! Playing online I'm realizing more and more how much of a defensive game this is. I try and make things happen by being aggressive but my opponent can just turtle... and god there is NO hitlag, it's so frustrating. You're better off spamming projectiles and using hit and run tactics than pursuing somebody after hitting them. What kind of game is that?? I love how smash always had comboing, you just had to do it yourself, unlike button combos... now we don't have any comboing... they can just eat the hit and hit you back.

I find myself getting bored with all the defense... so i go on the offensive and get my *** kicked. Then I turn it off because fighting games aren't supposed to be 'who can defensively grind on the other person's boredom longer'.

I know that's a bit of a stretch. And I hope it gets better than this.

But all signs point to no.

(especially since they put in tripping to reduce the effectiveness of trotting and dashdancing)

 

[Wuss]

gotta go with yuna on this one. Dumbing the game down can't be good for anyone. I understand why sakurai did it, because he wanted to open it to more people (aka make more money), but it can't be good for anyone that isn't part of the creation process. Like he said, if people want to play it competitively, they will, but they want be able to go as far as they did with melee. Just last week, my friends and I played like our last game of smash together (cause brawl was coming out), and we were STILL surprised by something that we'd never seen before. That's how incredibly deep melee is. If brawl is dumbed down, then the game can't be reinvented after we find a new technique, and therefore won't have as much competitive potential. I sure hope there are some crazy glitches that make the game better ^_^

 

[Dreminem]

I decided to move to brawl, mainly because it is new and I am hoping that some new ATs will be discovered so there will be atleast some way to become better. I doubt there will be anything as big as l-cancelling and WDing but hopefully something big will be discovered. If nothing gets discovered I may go back to melee since that game is definately a lot better and more fun to me.

But what people say are right, most people will make the transition eventually because melee will have less tournaments, players, and appeal the more you play it. I mean, I loved melee, I could play that game all the time. I'm sure eventually it would die off for me too if I had made the decision to stay on melee.

I think we will have to wait atleast a year or two to see if anything will make brawl have a more competitive scene. Maybe there will be a patch that will change the gravity/combo ability. Right now I know it seems hopeless without the ability to combo because of the knockback and lack of hit stun. Many other things makes playing brawl feel a lot worse but I think after some time things may change. Even if it isn't a patch it could be something else that makes the game better and more skill-oriented.

We will have to wait and see.

 

[metroid1117]

@Yuna: great post.

Yeah, Sakurai did a good job at evening out competitive Brawl by removing wavedashing and l-canceling - on a technical level. Pro players don't win because they're only technical - they win because they know how to analyze and predict their opponent. They know how to get them where they want and punish them for it. Brawl will still be competitive, but it'll be based on your mindgames now.

 

[Rabbi Dan]

Spoiler

Melee was like playing SSB in the Matrix; Brawl is like playing SSB in the real world. I might be able to dodge bullets in Brawl, but in Melee I didn't have to. I'm of course moving on to Brawl, because that's where the players are, but from playing it so far the engine feels so constraining, and in Melee I felt like I could potentially do ANYTHING if my fingers and mind could do it fast enough. Maybe that's what SSB should be like, and Melee was a step in the wrong direction, but I sure wish that wasn't what the designers felt.

I started typing out something, and I edited it until it ended up as this. Negative Brawl feelings IT spoilered text.

 

[Pink Reaper]

@Darkslash-Wavedashing was not a glitch


Brawl's competative scene does not look like it will be as good as melee's competative scene at this point. It's possible that we will find new techniques, but it's also possible that there won't be any new techniques (or at least influential ones). The combo system was completely thrown out in favor of a turtling system, which is not a good thing for a fighting game. Recovery was made to auto sweetspot, which takes out pretty much every form of on stage edgeguarding. Stun was reduced so much that now the someone being hit by an attack has just as many options as the person hitting them, which is completely ********.

SSB64 had Z-canceling, which was a lot more broken than L-canceling, dispite being intentional.

QFT!

After re-watching a huge amount of vids of me and my smash buddies playing, I realized that over half of the match was spent shielding, grabbing, throwing then retreating to do it all over again. Brawl is ruled by the shield and(just like alot of people feared) the shield grab. As such, the game is usually won by the player who stays defensive rather than actually attacking, which seems a little odd for a fighting game. It's understandable to have defensive minded players but its rare that you have an entirely defensive minded game.

 

[The Blackstar]

I think by removing L-canceling and wave dashing, it allowed more casual players, who could not compete as well with higher players, to become more competitive. In my opinion, I think Brawl will be much more fun since all the characters are almost balanced. This way, tournaments won't have a small handful of high tier characters.

I don't understand this reasoning. The thing that separates casual players and higher level players is that higher level players care enough to take the time to LEARN and become proficient at those kinds of techniques, not the existence of them.

I think balancing characters abilities should be a top priority in an attempt to balance a game, not lowering the ceiling for tech skill (if it turns out that's what happened.)

You also can't say that tournaments won't evolve into a small handful of high tier characters because no one has played enough to be able to exploit certain characters effectively.

I really really hope this game evolves to something competitive, although I'm sorely going to miss the speed of melee. It was just so **** fun to watch.

 

[Nesskid]

Honestly I can't say how I feel about Brawl competitivly. As a long time Melee player who would not define himself as casual; I'm on the fence.
However, I think more people who are downright forsaking the game aught to have a more open mind.

So, why get rid of wavedashing/L-Canceling etc.? WHY NOT? It's a NEW GAME. It's not a Melee expansion. Now, as cool as a Melee expansion would be, what we have here is Super Smash Brothers in another form. What people really should do is stop comparing it to Melee and just play the game as it is. Now I know that's easier said then done, I too keep thinking "I moving around so slowly" and "It's so much easier to do certain stuff (such as grab edges.)" but you really need to give the game a chance more than just 3 days. Additionally, any game with THIS MUCH HYPE is going to dissapoint you. Weather it's Fox and Falco's Final Smashs being similar, there not being character specific target tests, or big differances from Melee, something is going to tell you that this game isn't perfect in your eyes and you'll be dissapointed. The key is to get over that and enjoy the game.

Now, as for if the game is competitive or not... That's easy. All you have to do is wait for a few months, then, take a player that's new to Super Smash Brothers but has learned how to play Brawl, and pit them against a verteran Melee player. If the game is competitive then the new Brawl player will win because that would show that Brawl has enough Depth for someone to learn tactics and evolve as a player and beat people who don't play the game. In other words, if a game has depth that makes in competitive, wouldn't you say?

In other words, if you really don't think Brawl is competitive then go beat someone who only knows how to Brawl. With your vast knowledge of Super Smash Brothers you should be able to beat a new player despite them having more affinity with the game then you. However, if you can not beat someone who was never big on Melee, then you really have no choice but to concede that Brawl is in fact, competitive.

 

[mark.]

its funky fresh and new.
but if no one can fix this chunky movement, then im going to play this game casually.

 

[Red Exodus]

Ask this question 2-3 years from now. Do you think someone just to discover every melee technique by day 3?

 

[arrowhead]

Ask this question 2-3 years from now. Do you think someone just to discover every melee technique by day 3?

because japan doesn't exist

face it: brawl's mechanics basically guarantees that it won't become as competitive as melee. that's why you should all play on HIGH GRAVITY MODE

 

[-sonny-]

I think Brawl is fun, but I really can't see it being competitive. The lack of l-cancelling really gets to me (sorry I can't help it) and the difficulty of edge guarding REALLY bothers me, because edge guarding was one of my favourite things to do in SSB64 and SSBM.

I'm sure I'll still be playing Brawl for years, but I like Melee a bit more.

 

[Eggm]

Nope, I'm gonna stick with melee for a competitive game. I'll play brawl for the fun that's to be had like in SSE and for random groups of friends, but when I want to get my competitive on, I'll play melee.

I'm with this guy 110%.

 

[Nao Hikari]

New techs, new physics, new game entirely. Sure there isn't wave dashing or L-canceling, but you gotta understand that this is a new game. Obviously people are going to prefer Melee over Brawl, the game JUST came out. And sure there might not be as many advanced techniques like in melee, but rest assured there are still some there, and not everyone will be able to perform them which will still provide a learning curve to those "competitive" smashers to go for. As for evening the field for all players, honestly, what's the big deal. Last time i checked it takes "competitors" in order to be "competitive" in the game, so by balancing it out, it just makes more challengers for you the "competitive" player, to take on and see just how fine tuned your strategies really are.

All in all, just give the game some time. With the easily accessed Wi-Fi capabilities (which hopefully will get updates to make it even better/smoother) the tournament scene can grow to unfathomable possibilities.

 

[arrowhead]

quoted from plairnkk:
1.) ZOMG THIS ISN'T MELEE 2.0: We realize it isn't melee 2.0. However it is smash 2.0. It's a sequel and sequels are meant to be expanding and to increase gameplay. Not to deteriate a complex game into a rolling scrubfest.

2.) LYKE THE GAME TTLY HSNT BEEN OUT FOR MRE THAN 2 DAYS IN TEH AMRICAZ: Yes, we realize this. However we've been playing the game for a little over a month since the Japanese release. Is this enough time to learn everything about the game? No. Is it enough time to observe the obvious changes and limitations in the physics engine? Yes.

as for your evening out the field argument, why the hell is that a good thing? competitive players are competitive BECAUSE they want to perfect every tech and gain knowledge of all the characters. it was a mistake to water down the game just so the noobs will be better in comparison. they're not real competitive smashers. they're just like those noobs who but their lvl 70 wow character off ebay

 

[Truegamer#1]

Ask this question 2-3 years from now. Do you think someone just to discover every melee technique by day 3?

good point, only time will tell if this Super Smash bros is worthy of being a competitive game...