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Did you drop TL as your main? Who did you switch to and why?

Smashless

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
75
Location
NY, NY
Do you main toon link? Awesome. Did you used to main toon link, but have since changed your main? You're not alone.

Who did you change your main to, and why?

In the first poll on the general discussion where people declared their mains, Toon Link was the most popular choice on Smashboards by a good number. Initial hype for the character and his campy projectiles and combo game was high, and most people predicted great things for the swordsman of the great sea.

But as we've become more experienced with the game in the last few months, TL mains have dropped off sharply. In terms of tournament rankings, TL, who was once predicted to be high or very high tier, is nestled snugly between Ganondorf and Sonic the Hedgehog in the D rank with only two top 8 appearances. Indeed, even the TL boards lack the kind of debate and discussion that some of the other boards have. A few weeks ago, I even changed my main to ROB myself. I still frequent the TL boards because I secondary him, but he's not my best character, and I'm not alone in this.

Why did this happen?

In this thread, I'm attempting to figure out where all the toon link players migrated to, and maybe why Toon Link isn't living up to his potential (or if he has that potential at all). I'll keep a tally of the new mains to see if a pattern of something emerges, and to get a better idea of why nobody seems to be bringing home tournament wins with toon link, or, really, using him at all in the higher levels of tournament play. Why does this character, who has so many good matchups and attributes and so few negative ones, see so little action?

FORMER TL MAINS SPEAK OUT:

-Smashless: switched to ROB
Reason: I started winning more with ROB, mostly. I think it was because Toon Link is an incredibly unforgiving character. If you mess up his spacing, you're going to eat some damage, and unless TL is in a bair combo, he doesn't build damage terribly quickly. That, combined with his difficult-to-land KO moves and light weight means that TL requires massive amount of technical skill and focus to play correctly. ROB, conversely, likes to Dsmash constantly and fire his lazers. My play-style just works better with the Robotic Operating Buddy. Also: people have been getting smarter as to how they get through camping setups, which was not the case early in brawl's metagame. I found ROB's projectiles easier to effectively use than toon links.

-Yukiwarashi: Switched to Pokemon Trainer
Reason: Challenge of maining 3-in-1 in PT

-Santi: Switched to Charizard
Reason: Rocksmash is teh pwn (perhaps the most valid and lucid argument presented in this thread)

-Ryos4: Switched to Pit
Reason: Pit is a creative character.

-=Shiro=: Switched to ROB
Reason: Found ROB more rewarding, fun and effective

-DJBrowny: Switched to Lucario
Reason: Found TL one dimensional and light. New main Lucario has lots more options for approaches and other techniques.

-AvantGarde: Didn't switch, but offers an interesting rationale as to why people switched:
"it's really easy to see why early adopters never stayed with him. As you said, if you mess up, he's really unforgiving. It's just the kind of thing where lots of experience and practice pays off big, and only being middle class leaves you in the dust. Learning things like SDHA proved to be too much for early adopters, and when the awe of his Dair ran off, people just moved on.
I don't think there's any denying that TL has potential, but most people would rather move on to other characters where it takes less mastery to realize that potential. The other thing that's hurt TL is the fact that popular characters do well against him, (Falco, Metaknight) so people tend to use other characters in tournaments."
 

Yukiwarashi

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
2,119
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
Umm...I did. Sort of. In a way.

Basically, I've started concentrating on Pokemon Trainer more. There are not enough people out there that use all 3 Pokemon well and equally, so I've made that goal. In a tournament setting, I plan to use Pokemon Trainer to start off in my matches. Toon Link is my other main. While Pokemon Trainer is awesome in being a 3 in 1 character, he is quite the 50-50 character. If I don't think he can handle it, I fall back on Toon Link. He's amazingly versatile, so with the two (or four, technically), of them, I think I've got my bases covered. I could never drop Toon Link. He's way too cool.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
Well originally it was lucas, then it moved to toon link as soon as i unlocked him. Though to me he seemed really too easy to play, so i changed to Pit who at that point was just a spamming character. Though i saw potential in him being a creative character. Though toon link will always be the second since he plays similarly to Link in melee. Well more so then twilight link.
 

null55

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
3,500
Haha, great vid Santi. I also like playing with only Charizard.

Anyway, I switched to R.O.B. as well. I was trying to find a secondary so that I could try to focus on just Toon Link and one other character, but after playing for a while I felt like playing with R.O.B. was just much more rewarding. The fact of the matter is, I just have more fun playing with him. I got a little tired of playing with Toon Link, but I would still main him if I didn't love R.O.B. so much. He's just too fun. (And, of course, I'm better with him)

Really though, I haven't dropped Toon Link. I've just kind of taken a break from him for a while, but he's still viable to me my main.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
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Video Games
combined with his difficult-to-land KO moves
...

are ranged, high powered, blindingly quick smash attacks and a uair that lasts forever not enough?

anyway i planned on maining TL too. Hes still very good but i just preffered other characters over him. TL is fairly 1-dimensional, similarly to G&W (although no where near the extent of his). Spam bair and bombs until high %, kill with a running usmash. i can try to mix with up with different approaches but really, those are his best ones, and not abusing them at every opportunity is just putting yourself at a disadvantage.

My new main Lucario has all sorts of approaches, similar to TL he has a projectile to force the enemy to approach but once theyre near theres so many options, either got for utilt lock, FP chaingrab, dthrow combos and SH any of his aerials. and of course hes a great deal heavier than TL, which means a lot to me. getting KO'd as TL at < 100% consistently is just annoying.
 
Joined
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Coppell TX
...

are ranged, high powered, blindingly quick smash attacks and a uair that lasts forever not enough?
QUOTE]


Fsmash is blindingly quick? Dsmash I may give you, but from what I see stale move negation in matches seem to limit it's KO potential. Uair is hard to hit if your facing a competent opponent at all, U smash is okay, but can be telegraphed.


Hell even the SBR acknowledges this, he was in the right saying TL's KO moves are very situational and can be difficult to set up and causes him to deviate from his main game of Camp and spam which he does so well. This is part of the reason why he isn't placing too well in tournaments.
 

AvantGarde

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
42
Just to start out, I never switched from toon link, but it's really easy to see why early adopters never stayed with him. As you said, if you mess up, he's really unforgiving. It's just the kind of thing where lots of experience and practice pays off big, and only being middle class leaves you in the dust. Learning things like SDHA proved to be too much for early adopters, and when the awe of his Dair ran off, people just moved on.
I don't think there's any denying that TL has potential, but most people would rather move on to other characters where it takes less mastery to realize that potential. The other thing that's hurt TL is the fact that popular characters do well against him, (Falco, Metaknight) so people tend to use other characters in tournaments.
 

Smashless

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
75
Location
NY, NY
as i expected, we've got lots of different reasons for switching. but the prevailing theme seems to be that some aspect of another character, while maybe similar to TL in some cases, was better or good enough to warrant a switch of main. Shiro, we have a very similar path towards maining ROB.

are ranged, high powered, blindingly quick smash attacks and a uair that lasts forever not enough?
Well, the upsmash is certainly the worthy of that description, and probably his best KO move because of it, even though TL doesn't like to get on top of people like that until he's ready (running upsmash <3). But the fact remains that it doesn't kill early enough- it doesn't kill snake until at least 130%, and man... it's hard to camp it out vs snake for that long without getting punished eventually. As for the much more powerful Fsmash, there is actually a 50% window or so when it can be used. Too early, and it won't kill and will be dull for killing purposes. Too late, and they can DI out of the second hit. Also, if they predict the fsmash and shield, and you'll be eating a move of their choice, since the fsmash has enough lag for even Gdorf to nail you with his elbow. It's tough to find the right moment since there is no way to setup for it (which is what i mean by difficult to land). Dsmash takes forever to kill. Fair is good if slightly weak, and upair is good if slightly predictable. So, while I agree that they are effective at actually doing the killing, it's hard for TL to find an opening sometimes. But, I don't want this to become a debate about KO moves (unless it's in the context of why one dropped TL as a main). He's got them, for sure, even if they are a little flawed.

Also, well said, AvantGarde. I stuck it out and learned some of the advanced stuff, but still switched. But i'm sure that that was a contributing factor.

I'll update the main post. Keep em coming, folks.
 

MrOtter

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
340
Location
UK - Stafford/Leeds.
I'm sticking with Toon Link.

I think there's alot of unexplored territory for most people in his arrow game.

You can put an arrow in after practically any arial.

Besides, if I wasn't playing T.Link I'd be playing Ike or Sheik. None of which are tier gods either.
 

AlCaTraz644

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
158
Location
new jersey
Yeah i stopped maining TL and swithced to Marth then Link. I got bored of him i guess i could do mostly all his AT like SHDA, the bomb manuever Kizzu used against ZSS, actually that move alone made me really want to get better with him and also some other At where TL would SHDA but on the last arrow change position allow for Bair combo in dair.

I then realized he might be top tier being said on the board i can't play top tier characters just don't like to, but what y'know he isn't any more. That's also why i dropped marth to secondarie rather than my main.

Now i play Link he's more powerful though his recovery sucks. I just prefer playing as non top ranked characters. I don't even use marth anymore as a secondary, but now sheik.

And LInk looks cooler.
 

ozg82889

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
248
Location
Antioch, CA
i originally intended to main ness as he was one of the characters i played well in melee ( i played marth, jiggly, peach, gdorf and ness) after playing the SSE i found out i liked lucas more then ness so i started to play him as my main.

i saw some TL vids and thought i might give him a try to make him my secondary.
after i unlocked him and played with him i really enjoyed him. his play style matched mine and i decided to make him my main and lucas my secondary.

that was all in the first week of release in the US. i still main TL and plan to continue maining him until ssb4 eventually comes out and nobody plays brawl.
 

edde

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
573
Location
Caracas, Venezuela
NNID
edmichu
hmmm, funny part, is that i have a huge knowledge on TL, but, now one of my "seconds"

my other mains (falco, snake and G&W are the ones i use the best)are
falco: CG gives him overwhelming advantage on ALL chars since its very versatile and has way too much different uses and possible finishes, his smashes are a bit weaker, but less punishable and easy to land, hes got hyphen smash, his tilts are great, his air speed is great, his lasers are what make him such a great char... his recov and lighlyness suck though
snake: barely use him, but hes way too strong, he gets kills easily and fast, you dont need much practice to be a good/effective snake
MK: look at snake
ROB: solid defensive game, solid camp game, great recovery, great kill moves, hes kind off a perfect character
G&W: very light, but ridiculously strong, fast, prioritastic and his tech game is one or maybe the best
wolf: great spam game and air game, hes also got good, variable and reliable kill moves... considering to quit him due to crappy recovery
dedede: great defensive and offstage game, chaingrab is just too good, grab game is great, a char with very very very few disadvantages
TL solid camp game, great aerials (except for crappy dair), great tilts, good priority... weaknesses, his kill moves dont combo/link well, his smashes are too weak except forward that is too slow and punishable, his grab/defensive game sucks and evethough he has a disjointed hitbox, his range isnt something that good... im considering on quitting him


edit: to sum all up,. and this is what youre gonna put, i am semi quitting TL for characters with better potential that have less hard time getting kills
 

Ryusiodo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
182
Location
Miramar/Gainesville, Florida
I didn't really play TL that long due to previous lack of interest in Brawl overall. However I did find him the most fun to play at first and mained him for a short period. Later on I just found him not completely suiting to my playstyle overall. Like the TC, I seemed to find ROB easier to camp with. TL just had too many usable projectiles for me to keep track of.

I'm still deciding on two to main secondary from Marth, Falco and ROB.
 

brentlouis

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
226
I dropped toon link and switched to bowser and luigi, but now too link is back
 

kkkoala

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
56
im in the process of going to ddd

aside from the fact that u cant say a single feature about ddd thats uncool, ddd just has several ways of hillarious 0% deaths...

ww was/is my fav zelda game, and hes fast and his boomerang resembles a magic banana...

real reasons why i switched:
1 his horrible throw game puts a huge damper on his defencive options
2 yeah hes easier to ko wit than mk but he still has teh problems wit ko's. his fair isnt so amasingsauce, and he lacks the multiple jumps required to ko at mid %s wit average airials (ddd and his bair *caugh*)
3 despite him being a sword weilding char, hes outranged by alot of stuff, ud be suprised at how many down tilts outrange all of his attacks...
4 his dair is rly just a button that u never hit... if it were like links or yl's it would be alot better... also if it spiked no mattr where u hit wit... i mean if u dont have insane gimping abilities, OR a spike, OR insane ko moves, its gg
5 no pajama costume, wtf? whyd they put that on a trophie? i want the pajamas and the fricken mask from the game...
6 also i wanted mirror sheild... ><


ddd has, which tl duznt: very strong ko moves, very good gimping abilities, two (one being much less "plz run under mah" than the other but stillz) suicides, chain grab, strong grabs (16% is teh yums), very good grabbing range, not like tl has bad recovery but ddd's is better, hes heavy as tl is very light, he can ko at 0% by spitting u under the stage (certain chars and stages obviously), the list can keep going

things tl has: better ranged game (though one that ddd can 90% negate with his in tlvddd matchup), um wut else? tlvddd matchup, tl can chain uptilt and chain upsmash til 50%...

gawd i wrote alot
 

Monjula

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 11, 2008
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So when a character like Ike comes along and smashes you in the face at 13% for a spike, what then?

Stick with both characters, master them, then compare.
 

Fiz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
Messages
92
Location
Israel
I changed my main to Marth, I stopped playing him because I felt I couldn't lend KO moves, I had to outsmart my opponent to land an usmash or something that will kill, also I didn't like the fact that it is really hard to edge guard with him, I felt that Marth would be the best choice, because he has a lot of viable KO moves and he can edge guard pretty well. I do miss the projectiles though :p...
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
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I don't think I'm ever gonna drop TL.
I mean hes like my fun charecter. And I've been told I'm good with him, so I'm gonna stick with him.
It's like how I felt playing Marth in Melee, so yeahhh
 

ImpactAR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
595
Location
South Carolina
In short, most people are switching because they feel they're chances of winning is better with another character especially in tournaments. No shame in that. And there are a few who switch because they "feel" another character more so. I switch from Link to TL for both reasons.

Personally, I'm glad he's not doing to well in tournaments because I'm afraid people will pick up TL only for that reason and I'll end up playing a lot of TL dittos. But I will have Marth under my belt (clean thoughts please) for counter picks.

Interesting topic, TC. I like it.
 

ddizzeldexley

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
7
i agree with dat but lots of ppl quit when you first start using tl u suck u need lots of practice to acually get good with him
 

CY

Smash Ace
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Mar 31, 2008
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Lamar University, TX
i dropped lucas for t. link. and about a month or so ago i switched to falco. falco just became more fun and pretty much owns. yea, but i still use t. link some.
 

laird

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 4, 2006
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Chapel Hill, NC // Middletown, CT
I dropped Tlink from main to secondary behind game and watch. With GW i can play the offense that I always wanted to with toon link without having to micro projectiles to make up for not having a great ability to kill, etc.

But I still like tlink; he's just so demanding, and gw is so fun.
 

Santi

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
1,931
I'm picking up MK now. I'm taking the easy way out :/
I just can't do it anymore with TL.
I hate placing low in tournies cause everyone uses better characters.
I'll use him in doubles but for singles and as of right now, I'm going to start practicing MK and maybe stick with him.
 

Santi

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
1,931
...

I watched your videos; I apparently play a lot like you without ever recognizing it until recently.

You're considered one of the best Toon Links here; yet you'll depart? You know some people won't take that well. Since...Toon Link needs good people to rep him. There's not enough TL users, but many MK users, no?

Oh, and I thought you used Marth too. Or are you trying to find a broken character to use? =P

If so, I would recommend that if you're using MK, okay then. Use Donkey Kong as a Counterpick for Snake and other MKs, TL for any heavyweights, and you're good?

zomgosh Bawlrz sux. ^^
Thanks VietGeek for the support.
But I have already changed my mind....
Screw MK.. we need to bring that batball down once and for all and I will do it using TL and Charz.

I just watched a Hancock trailor...
and it has changed my whole way of thinking.......
haha
I'm serious.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSY_McFnFK0&amp;feature=related
2:05-2:13

"Life here can be difficult for me. After all I'm only one of my kind. You deserve better from me, I will be better"


TOON LINKS UNITE!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Santi

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
Messages
1,931
You changed your mind over the course of 3 hours due to a trailer? Too awesome.

Shall we all bomb spam to victory? Projectile spamming...to the next level?!

Sorry, I suck at making epic inspirational endings to support post. xD
That's why I stole Emblem Lord's lines and tweaked them a bit.
Yes sirrrr. I now main TL because of a scripted speech by Will Smith Haha.

We shall use the up and down taunt to achieve victroy.
Dash>Turn around use the momentum lag into a sliding Uptaunt.
Wand control.

Also intense mindgames with the down taunt. MK will be dodging that taunt like crazy, little do they know that it cant do damage.
While they are confused....

we upsmash :D
 

Bane

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
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Saint John, NB
I was a young link player in melee, and while the character wasn't the most effective, I chose him because I just lobed his playstyle flat out. It had a tremendous amount of subtlety to it, and his limited KO potential made tactical set ups a must.

Toon link plays nothing like young link.

Toon link has fantastic kill potential, his aerials and general floatiness make him like the lovechild of melee's peach and marth. If his aerials don't slice it for you, his smashes are fant, have unable range and are great KO moves. His projectiles are decent by brawl standards, but they aren't strong enough to set up any sort of full projectile defense or be the great opener they were in Melee. The boomerang is pathetic it's stun is practically negligible, and they took away the point blank hitbox it had in Melee, so I can't 'rang people in the face that way anymore. Bombs are completely different, they blow up bigger and have more knockback, but they're practically useless for combos. The bow lost it's hitstun too, and now it's best used as a primitive version of falco's laser.

I played him a fair bit, and I didn't suck with him, but I couldn't ever get him tight enough for it to be a dominating playstyle. He's a KO machine, and i look forward to seeing what other people do with him.

I played through the roster for a while, playing a little bit of everyone and while they were all usable I didn't find any of them fit my playstyle. Then I played Link, who I couldn't stand in Melee, and really enjoyed him. So I'm leaning in that direction now.
 

Sosuke

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Also intense mindgames with the down taunt. MK will be dodging that taunt like crazy, little do they know that it cant do damage.
While they are confused....
we upsmash :D
Hahaha. XD
It's like the TL version of MK's A barrage.
 

Dojo

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
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Location
Time Chamber, Texas
Lolz Santi was considering dropping him for MK...
Im glad he didn't. His TL is getting drastically better everytime we play... And his projectile spam is getting sick.


He got 100% off of sole projectiles in the last stock of a tournament set final match.
He was down with like 120% to 0% against an MK and made a complete comeback.
He's not a big bragger so I'll do it for him because it was really amazing how many projectiles can be thrown out at once.
 

l SOUP l

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
164
Location
Florida
But that would be restricting free speech that does not compromise Smashboards or anyone's terms of service or law...

And...considering the surprising amount of people who left Toon Link, and their reasons, I find this thread very interesting.
But some of us actually main TL and we come to these boards expecting to read something that might enhance our gameplay with our favorite character. This doesn't contribute anything to TL's game.
 
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