Diddy Offstage Offensive

[HoCHA]

I created this thread because I'm unsatisfied with Diddy's (and most of Smash 4 Wii U in general) lack of meta development for offstage play. Diddy can get back on stage pretty easily and has great aerials, so why does the edgeguard game mainly involve waiting for the opponent to grab ledge?

His dair isn't great as a spike because of how long it takes for the hitbox to come out, but what about stage spiking and gimping? Does anyone use Diddy offstage a lot? Please share your methods and results

 

[Heart of Ice]

Going off-stage is kind of risky with Diddy Kong now. Both Monkey Flip and the Barrel Jet Pack are highly both highly predictable and exploitable (he can usually get back if not intercepted but not in a safe manner). The only times I go off-stage are to either throw out a Fair to intercept a low recovery or to do a monkey flip spike on a larger character (like Donkey Kong).

Most times it's better to stay on stage with a banana at the ledge. This covers both regular getup and getup attack. Which means your opponents only options are to either roll in (easily stopped with a well spaced D-Tilt) or a getup jump, which can be stopped with a F-Air.

You can also throw a banana off of the stage to gimp recoveries, but it's a bit tricky, since you have to predict when your opponent will use their second jump and throw a few seconds before that.

EDIT: I also found a rather reliable string to get off a Dair spike. It's simply D-Throw near the ledge -> Double Jump -> Then Dair. The downside is it only works in the 30-40% range on most characters. If you think the spike won't kill you can always try to follow them downwards for another Dair follow-up, a footstool, or a stage spike. Do be careful though, Diddy's fast-fall speed is insanely fast and I've lost quite a few stocks by accidentally fast falling.

Seriously though, don't go off-stage too often because that could easily mean losing a stock, especially if you're fighting a character like Sheik or Pikachu.

 

[Rog48439]

Credit goes to Zinoto for this one, who showed me that against characters with linear recoveries (Fox, Luigi, CFalcon, etc.) you can run off-stage and kick-flip into the ledge so that Diddy basically floats at the spot where they would have to grab the ledge, but the hitbox is active the normal duration and (if you spaced/executed this correctly) you'll just grab the ledge afterwards. Very safe and not a lot of counter-play, as the hitbox doesn't send them in the direction that Diddy is trying to move, rather it sends them down/out/away from Diddy, so they can't even tech the stage unless they were recovering at a really unique angle (I've seen some foxes side-special just under SF in order to jump -> uSpecial and slide along the slope of the edge and grab the ledge, credit (as far as I've seen) would go to our resident fox main Ksev for that)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Please post your question in the Metagame thread. I will be happy to answer there. You can link your post in the metagame thread to this thread, so that people can find the discussion easier.

All discussion regarding the metagame should take place in the metagame thread, and I urge people to go there instead of responding here.

 

[Spatman]

Credit goes to Zinoto for this one, who showed me that against characters with linear recoveries (Fox, Luigi, CFalcon, etc.) you can run off-stage and kick-flip into the ledge so that Diddy basically floats at the spot where they would have to grab the ledge, but the hitbox is active the normal duration and (if you spaced/executed this correctly) you'll just grab the ledge afterwards. Very safe and not a lot of counter-play, as the hitbox doesn't send them in the direction that Diddy is trying to move, rather it sends them down/out/away from Diddy, so they can't even tech the stage unless they were recovering at a really unique angle (I've seen some foxes side-special just under SF in order to jump -> uSpecial and slide along the slope of the edge and grab the ledge, credit (as far as I've seen) would go to our resident fox main Ksev for that)

It's really hard to me to understand this post. Could you explain this better, or post a video which shows it, please?

 

[Pazx]

Remember that Diddy's bair has an earlier FAF and also more knockback than fair, so if you can help it you should rar offstage instead of going for a fair. If you do go for an aerial (but especially for fair) try to make it a rising aerial, avoid fastfalling at all costs. Certain recoveries get stuffed by banana -> fair offstage, so having a banana in hand is always good. Save your double jump for getting back on stage.

Please post your question in the Metagame thread. I will be happy to answer there. You can link your post in the metagame thread to this thread, so that people can find the discussion easier.

All discussion regarding the metagame should take place in the metagame thread, and I urge people to go there instead of responding here.

Hopefully someone gets modded so we can just merge this thread into that one

It's really hard to me to understand this post. Could you explain this better, or post a video which shows it, please?

When your opponent is recovering, use monkey flip kick towards the ledge. If they try to snap to the ledge, you'll hit them out of it. Just remember you can't use your up special after the kick, so save your DJ just in case.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Remember that Diddy's bair has an earlier FAF and also more knockback than fair, so if you can help it you should rar offstage instead of going for a fair. If you do go for an aerial (but especially for fair) try to make it a rising aerial, avoid fastfalling at all costs. Certain recoveries get stuffed by banana -> fair offstage, so having a banana in hand is always good. Save your double jump for getting back on stage.



Hopefully someone gets modded so we can just merge this thread into that one



When your opponent is recovering, use monkey flip kick towards the ledge. If they try to snap to the ledge, you'll hit them out of it. Just remember you can't use your up special after the kick, so save your DJ just in case.

The only options for mods are you, me, or an outsider. So I am sorta surprised no one has been picked yet...

 

[ArikadoSD]

Remember that Diddy's bair has an earlier FAF and also more knockback than fair, so if you can help it you should rar offstage instead of going for a fair.

Fair stays out way longer though, so it can be more useful sometimes.

Anyway, @ the OP: the reason the metagame for Diddy's offstage play isn't being developed as much is because there isn't much to develop in my eyes. His edgeguarding is fairly simple and limited to just going for an aerial then returning back to stage. Though using side b's hitbox then grabbing the ledge seems like an interesting option. ( Rog48439 )

 

[Spatman]

Remember that Diddy's bair has an earlier FAF and also more knockback than fair, so if you can help it you should rar offstage instead of going for a fair. If you do go for an aerial (but especially for fair) try to make it a rising aerial, avoid fastfalling at all costs. Certain recoveries get stuffed by banana -> fair offstage, so having a banana in hand is always good. Save your double jump for getting back on stage.



Hopefully someone gets modded so we can just merge this thread into that one



When your opponent is recovering, use monkey flip kick towards the ledge. If they try to snap to the ledge, you'll hit them out of it. Just remember you can't use your up special after the kick, so save your DJ just in case.

I almost can't hit anybody with a rar bair offstage, because it requires diddy using his first jump on stage and so you can't use the bair with the same unpredictability of fair. So a simple airdodge is more than enough to completely avoid bair's menace.

For the monkey flip: so you hit a recovering opponent with it. And then? The opponent goes stagespiked? I guess he/she is simply pushed back on stage this way

 

[Mahgnittoc]

I almost can't hit anybody with a rar bair offstage, because it requires diddy using his first jump on stage and so you can't use the bair with the same unpredictability of fair. So a simple airdodge is more than enough to completely avoid bair's menace.

For the monkey flip: so you hit a recovering opponent with it. And then? The opponent goes stagespiked? I guess he/she is simply pushed back on stage this way

That's because hats what most off stage gameplay is. If you want to go for more off stage things mix in the banana and the peanut. You can shoot an early peanut so they have to change their recovery pattern. If they air dodge you can go for bair or dair. You can also toss a banana off with the downb or you could have a banana in hand and z drop it or throw it up the go for an aerial. Or you could grow it at them then fair into them.

Besides using items tho there's not much you can do off stage.