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Diego Nooooooo 5: Tournament Edition - September 7th, 2013 - Glen Ellyn, IL

Fortress | Sveet

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Isn't that the entire point of the ban phase? To get rid of the worst stages for your character? Whats the point in banning by groups if you only remove 1-2 stages you don't like and 2-3 stages you dont mind and in the end the other person is just going to take you to a stage from another group that serves the same purpose? It saves time over manually banning 4 stages, but it is drastically less useful for the players.

In my mind, FC did it best. Group the transforming stages together. Group the very large stages together. Group the small stages together.
 

Oracle

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Oracle I see you lurking our thread.

How would you group stages?
I've actually been putting some work into a group system since I saw vro's butthurt thread about stages. I really like group system because it increases the number of stages allowed, which makes for deeper gameplay (imo) without allowing certain characters like bowser to dominate because the same stage is legal three times with different colors. The problem with the normal group system, however, is that the criteria that separate the stages were not very succinct or accurate. For example, dl64 and rumble falls were legal in the same group even though the blastzones on those two stages are no where near comparable.


My in progress stage grouping has four groups based on blastzone size and stage size: Big blastzone big stage, small blastzone small stage, big blastzone small stage, and small blastzone big stage. "changing" and "flat" were really broad groups that had very different stages in them; in my opinion, the combination of stage size and blastzone are much larger factors in why you would take somebody to a certain stage.
[WIP] Oracle's Stage Grouping System

1. After game one, the winning player bans a group of stages.
2. Losing player selects a group.
3. Winning player bans one stage in that group.
4. Losing player picks a stage from the remaining four
5. Winner chooses character
6. Loser chooses character

Group 1: Big Stage Big Blastzone
Dreamland 64
Castlevania
Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island Brawl

Group 2: Big Stage Small Blastzone (aka fox stages)
Rumble Falls
Skyloft
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Norfair

Group 3: Small Stage Big Blastzone
Fountain of Dreams
Metal Cavern
Port Town Aero Dive
Green Hill Zone
Castle Seige

Group 4: Small Stage Small Blastzone
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
WarioWare
Delfino Plaza
Halberd

Conservative Version (AKA "Sethlon is a big baby" provision)
Remove lavender stages from the groups, leaving four stages in each group. Winning player no longer gets to ban a stage from the selected group, just one group ban.

Still not 100% sold on this, especially sethlon's dumb rule, although it is a work in progress. Mostly because castle seige is pretty strange and GHZ and YIB don't fit that well into their respective stage groups. Grouping all the really good space animal stages into group two is pretty neat and helps with fox's dominance a bit.

Before somebody complains about delfino halberd or port town, those stages are not uncompetitive since the hazards and changes are all predictable and don't reward the worse player. Feel free to ask questions/call me a scrub
 

Oracle

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You can feasibly put rainbow cruise in the big stage small blastzone group over norfair. I'm not sure if I think norfair is much better than RC
 

Rat

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[WIP] Oracle's Stage Grouping System


1. After game one, the winning player bans a group of stages.
2. Losing player selects a group.
3. Winning player bans one stage in that group.
4. Losing player picks a stage from the remaining four
5. Winner chooses character
6. Loser chooses character

Group 1: Big Stage Big Blastzone
Dreamland 64
Castlevania
Kongo Jungle 64 Kongo Jungle 64
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island Brawl Yoshi's Island Brawl



Group 2: Big Stage Small Blastzone (aka fox stages)
Rumble Falls
Skyloft
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Norfair

Group 3: Small Stage Big Blastzone
Fountain of Dreams
Metal Cavern
Port Town Aero DiveSkyworld
Green Hill ZoneBattlefield
Castle Seige


Group 4: Small Stage Small Blastzone
Battlefield Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Story
WarioWare
Delfino Plaza
Halberd


Conservative Version (AKA "Sethlon is a big baby" provision)
Remove lavender stages from the groups, leaving four stages in each group. Winning player no longer gets to ban a stage from the selected group, just one group ban.


I made some edits:
Moved GHZ to Group 4
Moved Battlefield to Group 3
Removed Port Town Aero Dive
Added Skyworld to Group 3

Also thought DK64 is more skeptical than YIB.

I really really like the 1 ban inside the group as well. Aka The "Sethlon is a big baby" provision is stupid.


Feel free to ask questions/call me a scrub
ONLY MASSIVE SCRUB WOULD MAKE THIS LIST.
 

Oro?!

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I like your stage list grouping ideas. @oracle

In my mind, since Bowser is the oh so common example, let's say you use the old group banning setup. In the small stage group is warioware, FoD, Yoshi's, Metal Cavern. Ban it all day every day vs Bowser. Now Bowser has no advantageous stages left, and too many stages of different groups that he is bad on. What is the point for Bowser to be given a "counterpick" if there is no plausible advantage to be gained from it?

There are 2 possibilities you can arrive from in that example.
-The counterpick system is flawed since you cannot always have an advantageous scenario after you have lost a game
or
-The counterpick system is flawed because having distinct advantages is not something that should be tested in a competetive environment and should be overhauled entirely
 

Scythe

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you have some real clown stages in that list oracle lol. for real though I would like to try some sort of stagelist like this at our next tourney.
 

Oracle

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rat the changes look good other than the lack of port town. I just really like changing stages lol. Skyworld is pretty big compared to the rest of the stages in that group so it doesn't fit that much imo, but the side blastzones are massive relative to the stage size, so w/e. Its probably the best replacement possible with what we're given. I'm working on a sss that'll make these groups a bit easier to select from.

ALSO the reason I called it the sethlon is a big baby provision is because when I showed him the initial list he said "i'm not putting port town or delphino on at my tournaments end of discussion" and refused to talk about it haha
 

Fortress | Sveet

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In my mind, since Bowser is the oh so common example, let's say you use the old group banning setup. In the small stage group is warioware, FoD, Yoshi's, Metal Cavern. Ban it all day every day vs Bowser. Now Bowser has no advantageous stages left, and too many stages of different groups that he is bad on. What is the point for Bowser to be given a "counterpick" if there is no plausible advantage to be gained from it?
Isn't that just a character flaw? I mean, if the character is only good on 1 type of stage, it shouldn't be the ruleset's problem to allow him to play one of those stages no matter what. And bowser isn't bad on the other stages, he just isn't brokenly-strong on them. Its like fox on huge stages, should we spread those out because fox "needs" to counterpick them against bowser because hes useless if they are all banned? No, fox can play on the mediums and be fine, albeit not as powerful.
 

B.W.

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Guys I have an idea I'm putting together for a different sort of group banning.

Once I'm done I'll post it and you can give me some feedback.
 

B.W.

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I seem to have gone overboard and in doing so I guess I kind of created a whole new ruleset for stage banning because the original idea I had left too many stages open lol.

So here is our complete stagelist. (Debatable, I just tried to throw every stage in there for the hell of it.)


Step 1: Players play their first match.

Step 2: Winner decides who makes the first bans.

Whoever makes the first bans, bans a stage size and/or a blastzone size. So let's say it's Bowser vs Fox and Bowser gets first ban. His list might look something like this. (Grey'd out areas = banned)


Step 3: Second player to ban makes his bans. Since the player is playing Fox in this case his bans might look like this to counter Bowser's bans.



This is now the counterpick list that has been agreed upon and the loser may now counterpick his stage.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Well that would always leave only 5 stages at most to be played after the first game, which if melee's stage striking experience tells us anything, it will almost always be the middle ground. At that point, you might as well go and make those the "neutrals" or whatever and make everyone play on them; it would save time striking.

Other than that, the process is cumbersome to do in practice.
 

B.W.

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You've done this process in practice before? Are you a wizard from the future? It's not hard to say "I ban small stages and large blastzones." Write the list down before you head out and carry the list with you to the tournament. Also the TO should have it on paper somewhere as well just in case.

If the point of creating a ban system is to make the two characters play on even ground would this not do it?

One complaint on stage lists that I've heard more than once is that the current system gives way too big an advantage to the loser. This gets rid of the worst stages for both characters at once and the counterpicked stage comes down to preference in platform layout rather than allowing Fox to take Bowser to a large stage with blastzones that makes it easy to outrun and easy to kill Bowser, or Bowser to take Fox to a tiny stage with large blastzones where Fox can't run away and he has trouble killing Bowser.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Rule number 1 of TOing, the players won't do ****. Its hard enough to get players to write down their pools results. Most people didn't even have the neutral start ports memorized for the melee neutrals, and it was really basic; people will not take the time to memorize what stages count in what category. Even if the TOs supplied a list to every player, the players will resist. I could see most players simply ignoring the tournament's rules and doing what they want ("wanna start on battlefield" "ok" "wanna ban a few stages" "sure uhh _____" "ok i take you here").
 

Oracle

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It was hard enough to do groups at bowsers revenge's when sethlon printed the stagelist out for all the tvs. Its really confusing for newer players and kind of offputting; not something you want in your game imo. its a neat concept though
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Something I liked from FC, they had the menu custom designed for their grouping which made it REALLY easy. If you know how to do it, you could spend ~5 minutes before the tourney putting it on everyone's SD card.

edit- obviously tell people before hand this will be going on so they can back up their files and stuff.
 

B.W.

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If I knew how I'd do it as it would definitely make the list easier to see/ban the list making it much easier to do.

The only real way to do it without that is, as I said, to have it written down so you could look at the list and note what stages are in each section. Though as you said, people not banning this way could be a potential problem as people may not actually look at the list and would end up doing their own thing, even if the list is posted on every setup right in front of them.
 

Oracle

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I'm working on a custom menu where the layout is the same, but each stage group is color coded. Pretty simple. 05 your idea would require some pretty advanced coding
 

Oro?!

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Isn't that just a character flaw? I mean, if the character is only good on 1 type of stage, it shouldn't be the ruleset's problem to allow him to play one of those stages no matter what. And bowser isn't bad on the other stages, he just isn't brokenly-strong on them. Its like fox on huge stages, should we spread those out because fox "needs" to counterpick them against bowser because hes useless if they are all banned? No, fox can play on the mediums and be fine, albeit not as powerful.
Bowser isn't only good on 1 type of stage, he is just more dominant on small stages. There is only a small sub-set of stages that Bowser is not that strong on as well. So no, it is not so much a character flaw.

Bowser as a character very easily demonstrates the flaws of the cp system. With the old ban scenario, or even with group banning the way FC did it, Bowser and his opponent could eliminate every stage that either had a significant advantage on. That's great! But why is it called a counterpick then? You get no advantages and stage select becomes just personal preference.

I guess I just have more against the name or idea of a counterpick system. If characters should be forced to play on stages they may not be as comfortable on, then you should not be allowed to ban every uncomfortable stage. If you are meant to be able to remove all stages your character is uncomfortable on, even if it's just matchup related, then change the name of the "counterpick" process.

As an extra example Joe, because I know you remember this. Back when Pokefloats/Mute/Brinstar/Cruise/KJ64 were legal, I remember how a lot of players complained about there being 2 moving stages, or 2 stages with hazards. I can't ban out all of my problem stages, say the ICs players. Was there anything inherently wrong with those stages all being on? No, not at all. A lot of people brought up the points, "well what we want to test in a competitive setting is not players vs stage, but a player vs player scenario, and those hazard/moving stages detract from a competitive environment." There is nothing wrong with that notion either. All it does is change the metagame of the same characters. Changing the stage list did buff and nerf characters.

So what this really comes down to, in a game far more balanced than Melee, with far more available playable stages than Melee, where do we draw the line and define what we want. If characters should be allowed to play in advantageous positions and their opponents uncomfortable situations, then not every stage with those requirements should be bannable in a tournament set. If those stages should all be allowed to be eliminated, then change the name of the process after you have lost a game, and have a set basically on a neutral playing field.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I don't agree with all your points but I think I agree with what you are saying.

Would you like something more along the lines of 10-12 legal stages (5-7 "neutrals" for striking) and then 1-2 bans? Something so that 1 player could not ban every small stage or big stage, etc, but could have a chance to remove the absolute worst stage(s). Honestly, I think there are some really dumb stages in the pool right now. They aren't "broken" or anything, they are just dumb in my opinion (for example, wario ware).
 

Oro?!

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Transformations disrupt gameplay, provide more significant advantages and disadvantages than any other stage in the game, and has terrible ledges. Not worth to keep a redundant stage when PS2 is in the game and just at the cost of platforms that affect Marth.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Transformations disrupt gameplay,
To be fair, a lot of the problems with melee's PS1 are fixed: cannot infinite on walls, windmill is removed and can roll from the edge in the rock transformation's right side (did i miss any?).


provide more significant advantages and disadvantages than any other stage in the game
In melee, maybe. In P:M, no. A lot of the new stages are bad. I think they are creative but they will either be fixed or banned relatively soon.

On this note, how hard is it to create brawl stages? Not through the game's mode (that thing is atrocious) but, for example how they made Saffron City and Hyrule Castle.

and has terrible ledges.
The edges on PS2 are worse than PS1. The lip where you kill yourself is much higher. I rarely had it happen in melee, and mostly when i was doing some dumb gimp and messed up. On PS2 I have had it happen just ledgehopping with some characters. Doesn't happen on P:M PS1.

Not worth to keep a redundant stage when PS2 is in the game and just at the cost of platforms that affect Marth.
The platforms cost characters other than marth. Small characters in general have a hard time tech chasing on stages with tall platforms.

The platforms on PS2 are also much thinner (horizontally). Because of that as well as them being taller, it is much harder to simply force your opponent onto the platform. This breaks a lot of early percent combos that are good for the metagame; opponents can just slide off the platform without teching every time.
 

ORLY

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mute city was legal at madison this weekend

jus' sayin'

that stage is sweet
 

ORLY

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let's put a pin in the stage list discussion and ask,

when's the next one of these?
 

Scythe

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we're planning for one this saturday, kind of short notice but uh deal with it.
 

B.W.

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I was worried about this.

Hope I don't have to work. Or if I do, I hope it's not at night.
 

Rat

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EXP gaming is running Smash Tournaments on saturdays now - was thinking of going there.
 

Rat

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Well I've gone there every wednesday for the past month (and a bit.)

The owners have been pretty chill with whatever. They picked up some CRTs for smash (as we asked for 'em.) The tournaments have been pretty well run - were talking like at most 8 people doing a double elimination bracket so it's not that bad.

I've usually set the ruleset (it's usually newer player so they are largely unfamiliar with smash tournament rules.)

Overall my experience has been positive.
 

Scythe

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it has a venue fee and is honestly pretty small. We wouldn't be able to fir that many setups due to lack to tables for tvs and there's really only like 4 couches. It seemed to run fine though but when iwas there it was just 3 person round robin : /
 

Oro?!

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Even a 20 man local would have trouble taking place there due to CRTs. It would be like that time the power was shut off in CoD and we hijacked the other room. Totally not optimal and costs money in the form of a venue fee. I wouldn't go on Saturdays until casuals started going.
 
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