Differences Between Dr. Mario and Mario. (Which Italian is better than the other!)

[SuperNintendoKid]

Ive been looking at gameplay of Dr. Mario and i noticed he has been nerfs so badly here is what i noticed

• Pills do less damage and can bounce over medium/small characters which makes its approaching skills worthless.
• super jump punch now a one hit move increasing his vulnerability if it misses.
• a really bad jumper, worse than in Melee (even when boosted in smash run).
• good to see the Mario tornado back but it is so much slower than last time.
• due to Melee's advanced techniques like wavedashing, faster falling and SHFFL being gone, his better ways to fight in tournaments are out of his arsenal.
• his up air has decreased damage but gained more knockback making its good use for combos gone.

that's just what I noticed, any other things you noticed about the doc.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Seems that way. At least I wanna think that he's weaker because all the casuals are saying he looks stronger than Mario primarily using his Down Special as an argument towards his superiority. So of course I have to argue with them.

But, perhaps his custom moves will give him an edge.

Though they all look Similar to Mario's except for the Down Special variations.
http://imgur.com/a/OfWa9
http://imgur.com/a/52bcM

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

Seems that way. At least I wanna think that he's weaker because all the casuals are saying he looks stronger than Mario primarily using his Down Special as an argument towards his superiority. So of course I have to argue with them.

But, perhaps his custom moves will give him an edge.

Though they all look Similar to Mario's except for the Down Special variations.
http://imgur.com/a/OfWa9
http://imgur.com/a/52bcM

The giant pill looks to give the Doc some better reach, 'cause like I said before the normal pills are bouncier than melee so Kirby and even Mario himself can dodge by standing.

 

[DakotaBonez]

The giant pill looks to give the Doc some better reach, 'cause like I said before the normal pills are bouncier than melee so Kirby and even Mario himself can dodge by standing.

Yes But Mario also has a variation of Fireballs that are Bigger, not sure if the Giant pills act in a similar way though to the Giant Fireball as there isn't any footage to study of a comparison between the two.
I haven't even seen how the regular pills bounce in Smash 4.

 

[Foosedogg]

BETTER THAN MARIO

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

BETTER THAN MARIO

solid evidence other than mario tornado?

 

[Foosedogg]

solid evidence other than mario tornado?

*sniffle* bias... The guy was my Melee main.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

*sniffle* bias... The guy was my Melee main.

d'oh its okay, now Dr. Mario has been Brawlified.
but seriously he will be missed.

 

[PikaSamus]

Since meteor smashes are somewhat more important now, he might now be worse, but I'm not sure at the moment.

 

[Spinosaurus]

His NAir is still a reverse sex kick, and the damage wasn't why the pills were good.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

and the damage wasn't why the pills were good.

i know its more of an approaching projectile but it kinda got nerfed from the bouncier pills

 

[ミスティック Speed]

His NAir is still a reverse sex kick, and the damage wasn't why the pills were good.

As long as his Nair has the reversed damage gimmick....I will love him. xD This is confirmed to be true, right?

 

[Spinosaurus]

As long as his Nair has the reversed damage gimmick....I will love him. xD This is confirmed to be true, right?

Yep. Friend tested out, and I noticed on streams and videos that the end of the move has higher knockback.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Yep. Friend tested out, and I noticed on streams and videos that the end of the move has higher knockback.

*proceeds to die of happiness*

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

Yep. Friend tested out, and I noticed on streams and videos that the end of the move has higher knockback.

yus!

 

[Dragoomba]

To be honest, I feel that Mario's dair is much better, at least. Fast, last hit pops up fir followups, and has little to no landing lag.

 

[StarLight42]

I was scared about all these nerfs too at first, but these nerfs are literally nothing compared to normal Mario. The Tornado gives him a giant advantage over Mario whether people like to admit it or not.

The pill nerf is also barely even a nerf, it does a RANDOM amount of damage rather than fixed damage, it can be low or high, and that wasnt even what made the pills good, from what I hear.

 

[CryoGX]

The tornado alone is enough reason for me to play him over Mario.

 

[!BSP]

I would really like to know why you guys think the tornado >>> FLUDD.

 

[StarLight42]

I would really like to know why you guys think the tornado >>> FLUDD.

The added recovery is the icing on the cake, and the move actually does damage and knockback.

 

[NintenRob]

I would really like to know why you guys think the tornado >>> FLUDD.

I agree, In Brawl, you may have a point. But FLUDD has been given a massive buff. I managed to get an easy kill in the demo by knocking Link of the edge when he tried using his up special on the ground.

With correct usage, I think FLUDD would become a great move to stop people from recovering.

 

[!BSP]

The added recovery is the icing on the cake, and the move actually does damage and knockback.

OK. Why is FLUDD bad?

Aw screw it.

The stall on the Mario/Dr. Tornado has never made a huge difference in Mario's game, and as an attack, it is a joke. Imagine if the tornado didn't exist in Melee and 64. Do you really think Mario's tier position would change? The most people used it for was a slight stall that delayed the inevitable, and if you used it as an attack, there were usually better, safer, and less laggy options.

FLUDD doesn't do damage, but that's not the point of the move. It's to screw up whatever your opponent is trying to do, namely recovering. When paired with cape, it can easily lead to death, even at low %. If you're using the tornado for damage, again, there's probably better options available.

When I think about why Mario got stomped in Brawl, the Mario tornado wouldn't have made a difference. He would still have crap range and power, the tornado wouldn't change any of that. That's why I am ok with it going to his Dair (where it is actually better) and him receiving a completely unique move with more potential than the tornado.

FLUDD does knockback. That's what the push effect is.

I agree, In Brawl, you may have a point. But FLUDD has been given a massive buff. I managed to get an easy kill in the demo by knocking Link of the edge when he tried using his up special on the ground.

With correct usage, I think FLUDD would become a great move to stop people from recovering.

Trust me, FLUDD is going to destroy some characters in this game.

 

[StarLight42]

OK. Why is FLUDD bad?

:|

I just said why FLUDD is bad.

It doesn't cause damage or do knockback. I've tested Mario in the Smash 3DS demo, anyone who says FLUDD was buffed is crazy, it's the exact same as in Brawl with possibly even shorter distance from what i'm seeing. Dr. Mario will continue to reign superior over Mario from the looks of it.

Also, i'm not being biased towards Doc, I love them both the same, but I just hate that Sakurai had a perfect chance to remove FLUDD or bring the Mario Tornado back a custom move but did not go for either solution. Mario and Dr. Mario both having the tornado would be like a double whammy. Which would also decrease the differences between Mario and the Doc, bot oh well.


Not trying to be nitpicky, especially since i'm glad that Sakurai made the move to bring the Doc back, but better choices had the possibility of being made in specific areas.

 

[!BSP]

It doesn't need to do damage to be a threat.

Unless a lot changed from Brawl, FLUDD going to play a significant part when fighting:

Falcon: shooting him mid up B makes him shoot straight up, leading to an easy cape. Shooting him mid Side B basically cancels the move. With cape's nerfed range, I wouldn't be surprised if he can grab Mario from a cape attempt with up B. We'll have to wait and see on this, but, regardless, FLUDD destroys Falcon Dive and Raptor Boost.

Bowser: Up B OOS has always been a great tactic for Bowser. Bait it, land with FLUDD instead and shoot him into the air for a free punish, or off of the stage for a free gimp. Like most moves, shooting him in the middle of it to push him up and set up a free cape.

Bowser jr.: his up B will get destroyed, probably his side B too.

Charizard: it destroys his up B too, and with no gliding, he's even more limited.

Lucario: eh, we'll see. I don't remember FLUDD being that effective vs. him, but there weren't many Lucarios around me either.

Doc/Mario: Up B OOS is very risky around a charged FLUDD. If you whiff, you die.

Duck Hunt Dog: I think his up B is a Duck carrying him? You can FLUDD him to force him to miss the ledge sweetspot. Free cape and/or punish. If he tries to fly over and past you, FLUDD him off the stage. If he resists that, you still get a free punish.

Fox/Falco: Their up Bs get pushed a lot mid startup. I'm not positive on how side B will be affected, and it may be less useful since Fox and Falco don't go helpless from it, but this will also depend on the lag after the move.

Ganon: same as Falcon

Greninja: not sure, but probably similar to what happens to Pikachu when you shoot him mid quick attack.

Ike: lol. Ike has to base his recovery around FLUDD. It stops quickdraw and it can push Aether very easily.

Link: if you ever catch link without a double jump, he should die to FLUDD. If you FLUDD link while he doesn't have his jump, he has 3 options.

1: do nothing, and get caped because mario can move before him after using FLUDD.
2: Up B mid FLUDD, go Straight up, then proceed to get caped.
2.5: Up B right before Mario capes him, and die because his up B needs momentum to go any horizontal distance.
3: Airdodge through the water and die from being unable to make it back. FLUDD's water will also eat any projectiles he throws trying to cover himself.
4: Up B OOS and in general is risky for him with FLUDD around. If you shoot him, he goes helpless and most likely offstage.

Little Mac: his recovery is already terrible, but to add insult to injury, you can shoot him mid up B and expect him to go flying because his up B only goes straight up.

DeDeDe: FLUDDing super dedede jump makes it go mostly vertical, setting you up for an easy cape. If he tries to go over you, shoot him off the other side. If he tries to mix you up and retreats back towards the ledge, FLUDD him off.

Lucina and Marth: FLUDD them to stop their aerial momentum and go in for a cape. If they up B early to hit you, they won't have enough momentum to make it back. If they wait, they get caped. If they miss an up B OOS, they die.

MK: He misses an up B OOS, he dies. With no glide, FLUDD will probably wreck his new up B too. I've heard tornado has increased ending lag? Shoot him at the end and force him to go helpless, or just shoot him off the stage.

Luigi: FLUDD's water halts green missile, and if he goes for an up B and misses, he either dies or takes a free punish.

Ness: Shoot him so his PK Thunder misses.

Zelda/Sheik: If you FLUDD the startup of their up Bs, they will never sweetspot the ledge. If you FLUDD their landing with their up Bs, they get pushed up into the air in helpless. Death or punish either way.

Villager: Jump at him with your back towards him. If he tries to go really low with balloon trip, Dair and pop his balloons. If he tries to fly over you, FLUDD him off of the other edge, or he takes a punish and is put back into the same situation. If he tries to go straight towards the ledge with balloon trip, shoot him and force him to miss. What's he going to do?

Olimar: same as villager, except even more limited.

Pikachu:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP2TOzPBRIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93m2PzwaEjg

Pit/Dark Pit: I already feel bad for these two. Shoot them mid up B and drastically alter their flight plans.

Rosalina: shoot her mid up B. Laugh.

Plus, with the lag airdodges induce now, people will be obligated to throw out moves when you're appoaching them while they're in the air. You could bait a move and FLUDD them, which will give the move extra lag, and push them off the stage, potentially putting them in a bad spot if their recovery requires momentum to be effective.


What potential does tornado have outside of slightly extending recovery? What damage/knock back does it do that no other move can? Outside of the stall, what is regular mario losing by not having the special tornado?

 

[StarLight42]

It doesn't need to do damage to be a threat.

Unless a lot changed from Brawl, FLUDD going to play a significant part when fighting:

Falcon: shooting him mid up B makes him shoot straight up, leading to an easy cape. Shooting him mid Side B basically cancels the move. With cape's nerfed range, I wouldn't be surprised if he can grab Mario from a cape attempt with up B. We'll have to wait and see on this, but, regardless, FLUDD destroys Falcon Dive and Raptor Boost.

Bowser: Up B OOS has always been a great tactic for Bowser. Bait it, land with FLUDD instead and shoot him into the air for a free punish, or off of the stage for a free gimp. Like most moves, shooting him in the middle of it to push him up and set up a free cape.

Charizard: it destroys his up B too, and with no gliding, he's even more limited.

Doc/Mario: Up B OOS is very risky around a charged FLUDD. If you whiff, you die.

Duck Hunt Dog: I think his up B is a Duck carrying him? You can FLUDD him to force him to miss the ledge sweetspot. Free cape and/or punish. If he tries to fly over and past you, FLUDD him off the stage. If he resists that, you still get a free punish.

Fox/Falco: Their up Bs get pushed a lot mid startup. I'm not positive on how side B will be affected, and it may be less useful since Fox and Falco don't go helpless from it, but this will also depend on the lag after the move.

Ganon: same as Falcon

Greninja: not sure, but probably similar to what happens to Pikachu when you shoot him mid quick attack.

Ike: lol. Ike has to base his recovery around FLUDD. It stops quickdraw and it can push Aether very easily.

Link: if you ever catch link without a double jump, he should die to FLUDD. Up B OOS and in general is risky for him with FLUDD around.

Little Mac: his recovery his already terrible

DeDeDe: FLUDDing super dedede jump makes it go mostly vertical, setting you up for an easy cape. If he tries to go over you, shoot him off the other side. If he tries to mix you up and retreats back towards the ledge, FLUDD him off.

Lucina and Marth: FLUDD them to stop their aerial momentum and go in for a cape. If they up B early to hit you, they won't have enough momentum to make it back. If they wait, they get caped. If they miss an up B OOS, they die.

MK: He misses an up B OOS, he dies. With no glide, FLUDD will probably wreck his new up B too.

Ness: Shoot him so his PK Thunder misses.

There's more, but I don't feel like typing on my phone.


What potential does tornado have outside of slightly extending recovery?

Doing actual damage to the opponent.

 

[!BSP]

Taking a stock is the most damage you can do, and I've got the rest of my move set to do (more, less laggy, and safer) damage.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I did like the high damaging pills. It wasn't what made them great, but that they did so much damage in Melee was awesome. I thought it was second only to Falco's projectile as the best in Melee. With the lag on the move it might be unusable now.

It would be really disappointing to see Doctor end up worse than Mario, because he won a lot of Melee players over based only on how much better he was than Mario. With him being worse it'll just give fire to his many critics. But nothing is set in stone yet. We'll see.

 

[StarLight42]

Taking a stock is the most damage you can do, and I've got the rest of my move set to do (more, less laggy, and safer) damage.

The tornado also takes stocks better than FLUDD ever hoped too.

 

[warionumbah2]

The tornado also takes stocks better than FLUDD ever hoped too.

thing about Mario is that he doesn't need flood, all he needs is the cape which actually allows him to stay in the air longer and help recover unlike Dr Mario.

dr Mario is a heavy hitter but Mario is combo orientated and gimping people using the cape without falling like a rock.

Also you only argument is that it 'damages' sorry but no matter how much damage you do so long as it kills its ok, FLUDD isn't to damage its used to mess up the opponent and gimp them off stage you're 100% bias to Dr Mario so everything you say holds little weight.

As of now from what i've seen Mario can chain Utilts better and rack up damage faster, has better recovery too. Someone could easily snipe an off stage Dr M who's using tornado before the final Up special while Mario can cape to not only gain horizontal and vertical distance but also reflect the projectile.

Spikes are much more of a killing move than ever, his Fair isn't as useful. As of now until i actually play against a Dr Mario player i think he's worse than Mario but he's still good overall ONE move that doesn't NEED to be used for a character doesn't make another better just because it 'damages'.

 

[Mr.Random]

My opinion has changed drastically. Mario is a **** load better then doc. Mario has more range, does more damaging combos, FLUDD, Cape, and B-air make him one of the best edgeguarders in the game, and his kill moves are easier to land while docs are harder to land. I feel they butchered Doc in this game.

 

[!BSP]

The tornado also takes stocks better than FLUDD ever hoped too.

Ok. Let's say I'm fighting Marth on FD. Bait out a dolphin slash and block it. Like any smart player, Marth will attempt to drift towards the ledge in a pitiful attempt to avoid punishment. I whip out FLUDD and push him past the ledge, killing him. At 5/10/30/any%. He dies if he misses with one of his most important tools. What other move in the game can accomplish this?

Vs. Tornado:

Ok, I have a chance to punish my opponent. I could tornado, but I could also Usmash, Dsmash, or Up B in the air if I'm going for a vertical KO. What would I miss out on if I didn't have tornado, except the stall?

You have to consider the rest of Mario's moveset as well as the individual move.

If you ever have a situation in which Tornado could kill, Usmash/Dsmash/Up B/Nair/Bair/Uair/Grab would most likely get the job done as well. The only thing it actually adds to the moveset is the stall, which isn't that great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2ERDUpvrzg&list=UU-KuWeJ48G6rPA2lCgQirew - around 1:22. That little rise will not make the difference between a high and low tier character, and you have to give up the hitbox for a better one.

FLUDD on the other hand does something that only a few moves do, and it's the only one that does it really well. FLUDD is still very situational, but all I'm saying is that its potential and what it adds to the character is much better than what tornado does.

 

[shogungari]

I have to agree with the Fludd backers on this. I never understood why a move that doesn't activate your opponent's third jump and is able to push them back would be bad compared to a move with limited range, damage, and usage outside of getting in really close. If anything, that's what makes that one weapon that only pushes opponents back so OP and unfun to fight against. Damage isn't the goal, damage is the means to the goal- knocking your opponent out. As long as you achieve that goal, the means to get there doesn't matter so a weapon that denies an opponent the chance to recover versus a weapon that does minor damage when Mario already has enough of those seems like a no-brainer.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My opinion has changed drastically. Mario is a **** load better then doc. Mario has more range, does more damaging combos, FLUDD, Cape, and B-air make him one of the best edgeguarders in the game, and his kill moves are easier to land while docs are harder to land. I feel they butchered Doc in this game.

Until you tell me Dair isn't a multi hit move with super KB at the end(which it has been confirmed to be) I'm not going to believe that Mario has an easier time killing.

Also range? His animations are the same as Mario and logistically he'll probably have the same range. I have no idea where THAT came from.

I think he'll be equal to Mario in the long haul only because Mario has a better recovery and is still solid in comparison.

Also Doc's Bair has more KB than Mario's in this game(from user testimony)

Going by Coastward's impressions(he seemed pretty spot on), Doc is about equal to Mario in this game which denotes a much better balance and incentive for picking either Mario or Doc.

 

[StarLight42]

You guys are literally holding onto straws to defend Mario. Just admit it, FLUDD sucks, and it kills Mario's metagame. Dr. Mario will continue to reign superior over Mario until FLUDD is rid of.

Even if Mario somehow becomes better than the Doc in this game for no reason, i'll still play the Doc. I prefer Mario's Smash 64/Melee moveset, it's more fun than useless FLUDD.

thing about Mario is that he doesn't need flood, all he needs is the cape which actually allows him to stay in the air longer and help recover unlike Dr Mario.

dr Mario is a heavy hitter but Mario is combo orientated and gimping people using the cape without falling like a rock.

Also you only argument is that it 'damages' sorry but no matter how much damage you do so long as it kills its ok, FLUDD isn't to damage its used to mess up the opponent and gimp them off stage you're 100% bias to Dr Mario so everything you say holds little weight.

As of now from what i've seen Mario can chain Utilts better and rack up damage faster, has better recovery too. Someone could easily snipe an off stage Dr M who's using tornado before the final Up special while Mario can cape to not only gain horizontal and vertical distance but also reflect the projectile.

Spikes are much more of a killing move than ever, his Fair isn't as useful. As of now until i actually play against a Dr Mario player i think he's worse than Mario but he's still good overall ONE move that doesn't NEED to be used for a character doesn't make another better just because it 'damages'.

So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I am about to play the ultimate game of devil's advocate. FLUDD is pretty beneficial to Mario in this meta given its focus on gimping and the nerfed ledge snap.

What I am not about to do, however, is say Doc is worse than Mario because he lacks FLUDD. He gains a different tool and a better on-stage presence.

They are two different sides of the same coin, I really doubt the differences between them are so vast(in this title). Doctor Mario does not "suck" and Mario does not "suck"(to my knowledge).

 

[Substitution]

While I haven't played Dr. Mario (yet), I would assume it's down to taste. Some prefer Mario, while others prefer Dr. Mario. It all comes down to preference and playstyles.

 

[!BSP]

You guys are literally holding onto straws to defend Mario. Just admit it, FLUDD sucks, and it kills Mario's metagame. Dr. Mario will continue to reign superior over Mario until FLUDD is rid of.

Even if Mario somehow becomes better than the Doc in this game for no reason, i'll still play the Doc. I prefer Mario's Smash 64/Melee moveset, it's more fun than useless FLUDD.

So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.

I gave theory on how more than half the cast's recovery will be affected by fludd.

I've explained how you can whiff punish for death.

If that's grasping straws, I don't know what isn't. Regardless, i see I can't change your mind. I'll get videos as soon as I can to show you that fludd isn't useless (lol)

For the record, I'm not trying to argue mario v doc overall. I am trying to convince people that FLUDD adds more to mario than tornado does to Doc.

So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.

Ironic. Can you give some counter response to what i said then? It was passed over and fludd was called useless again.

 

[Deleted member]

Can he combo like Mario? Down Throw-> 2 Up Tilts -> Down Throw -> 2 Up Tilts -> Up Air -> Up B (Or something like that, I've done it on Link when we were both at 0%; and other characters, but not as much as Link)

Thats what I think will decide the outcome. FLUDD is much better than Brawl (especially high pressure FLUDD), and Tornado appears to have been nerfed a bit. All in all I think that combo ability will decide who is better, seeing as what the Tornado adds most to Doc's game in this iteration seems to be his expanded range of influence offstage, which will probably become a key part of the meta now that edgehogging is gone.

 

[Masonomace]

Lol at FLUDD stated to be 'bad'. I'm not even going to debate about that in this thread.

Answering the OP with my reply, I'll say that there's subjective tastes that convince people to think one is better than the other, when really they're both identical characters who share a semi-clone relationship. Two sides of the same coin, I would say it comes down to preference. Of course I haven't watched any footage of matches between Mario & Dr. Mario, so you can call me ignorant for that. Regardless, I'd rather choose Mario for FLUDD than Tornado. I was a main in Brawl, & playing taught me to enjoy 's FLUDD that augmented his already good gimp-game with Cape. By what I see & hear, FLUDD has been slightly improved, so when I think of Squirtle's Water Gun & how well that gimped character's recovery, I believe that FLUDD > Tornado.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can he combo like Mario? Down Throw-> 2 Up Tilts -> Down Throw -> 2 Up Tilts -> Up Air -> Up B (Or something like that, I've done it on Link when we were both at 0%; and other characters, but not as much as Link)

Thats what I think will decide the outcome. FLUDD is much better than Brawl (especially high pressure FLUDD), and Tornado appears to have been nerfed a bit. All in all I think that combo ability will decide who is better, seeing as what the Tornado adds most to Doc's game in this iteration seems to be his expanded range of influence offstage, which will probably become a key part of the meta now that edgehogging is gone.

Mario has a better combo game, but Doc's aerials in this game do more damage per hit. This makes Doc more consistent in the spacing game. Combined with stronger onstage KO power, Doc is probably slightly better.

Mario has better gimp options with Nair and Cape and FLUDD. He also does rush down slightly better with Dair. Those are as far as I see the reasons to play Mario over Doc.