Data DK Frame Data - Smash 4 Edition: Now with new Shieldstun!

[Big O]

Smash 4 runs at 60 frames per second (1 frame = 1/60th of a second). Basically, this means that everything you do happens within X frames after pressing buttons. Every action takes a certain amount of time to happen, which can be measured in frames.

Attacking frames are in yellow, total frames in are in purple, invincibility frames are in green, super armor frames are in blue, and windboxes are in orange.

Active frames tell you when the move does it's job. If a move hits multiple times, each hit will be separated by a comma.

The number in total frames essentially tells you how long it takes to complete the move. You can act freely starting from the next frame.

If you see an xx, it's just a placeholder value to be filled in later. Any number marked with a question mark I haven't tested too thoroughly or at all.

Ground Moves
​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Jab1 | 5-6 | 24 | 4
Jab2 | 6-7 | 34 | 5
Jab Combo | 5-6, 16-17 | 44 | 4, 5 | Fastest possible timing
Grab | 8-9 | 30 | Unblockable |

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Dash Atk | 9-24 | 41 | 7/6 | Weak hit on frames 13-24
Dash Grab | 10-11 | 38 | Unblockable |
Pivot Grab | 11-12 | 36 | Unblockable |

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Ftilt-Up | 9-11 | 37 | 8 | Intangible arm on frames 7-11
Ftilt-Side | 9-11 | 37 | 7 | Intangible arm/shoulder on frames 1-25
Ftilt-Down | 9-11 | 37 | 7 | Intangible arm/shoulder on frames 1-25 ... 15% trip chance
Utilt | 5-11 | 38 | 8/7/7 | Intangible arm on frames 5-25
Dtilt | 7-9 | 22 | 6/5 | Intangible arm on frames 1-9 ... 40% trip chance

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Fsmash | 22-23 | 54 | 13 | Charges on frame 15 ... Intangible head/arms on frames 20-26
Usmash | 14-15 | 49 | 12 | Charges on frame 7 ... Intangible head/arms on frames 12-15
Dsmash | 11-14 | 55 | 11/12/10 | Charges on frame 3 ... Intangible arms on frames 11-14

Aerials​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Auto-Cancel Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Nair | 10-26 | 38 | 17 | 1-9, 27+ | 8/6 | Weak hit on frames 14-26
Fair | 18-22 | 55 | 29 | Never AC's/still bugged lol | 11/10 | Spikes on frames 21-22
Bair | 7-16 | 31 | 18 | 1-6, 31+ | 9/6 | Weak hit on frames 9-16
Uair | 6-10 | 37 | 25 | 1-5, 26+ | 9 | Intangible head on frames 1-10
Dair | 14-16 | 54 | 24 | 1-2, 50+ | 11/9 |

Neutral B

*The current wind-up must finish before you can cancel
*You technically have the full charge, but still are locked into the buggy final wind-up animation
​

Move | Pre-Charge Lag | Wind-Up Frames | *Charge Cancel Lag | *Full Charge
Giant Punch | 7 | 13.33 | 8-21 | 140-153
Lightning Punch | 7 | 7.5 | 8-15 | 46-52
Storm Punch | 7 | 15 | 8-22 | 83-97

*There is an extra 7 frame pre-charge lag before you can punch if you aren't already charging for all uncharged punches
​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Free Fall Lag | Shieldstun | Notes
*Giant Punch (Uncharged) | 18-20 | 62 | 30 | 5-19 | Sweetspot hits behind you on frame 18 ... Intangible arm on frames 4-20
Giant Punch (Charged/Ground) | 19-20 | 47 | 30 | 18 | 11-20
Giant Punch (Charged/Air) | 18-20 | 62? | 30 | 16/10 | 17-20 ... Weak hit behind you on frame 18 ... Changes to the ground version upon landing ... Landing on frames 12-17 causes you to never get super armor
*Lightning Punch (Uncharged) | 15-16 | 47 | 30 | 5-11 | Sweetspot hits on frame 15 in front of you (hand only)
Lightning Punch (Charged) | 16 | 36 | 30 | 10/9 |
*Storm Punch (Uncharged) | 19-20 , 21-27 | 83 | 30 | 5-11 | Intangible arm on frames 4-19 on ground, 4-20 in air
Storm Punch (Charged) | 19-20 , 19-31 | 70 | 30 | 12 | 19-27 in air

Side B

All Side B's are able to grab the ledge during any part of the move and do 25 bonus shield damage
D = Damage after the attack hits, B = Buttons pressed while buried​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Headbutt | 20-21 | 63 | 7 | Buries for 96 + D - 14 x B frames
Jumping Headbutt | 23-26/31/33/37 | 78 | 7/6 | Hitbox duration depends on when you land
Stubborn Headbutt | 44-46 | 95 | 9 | 1-55

Up B

*25-31, 32-38, 39-45, 46-52, 53-58 ... 5 Hits
*12-19, 20-27, 28-35, 36-43 ... 4 Hits
*44-51, 52-59, 60-67 ... 3 Hits​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Free Fall Lag | Ledge Grabs | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Spinning Kong | 19, *25-58, 62 | 92 | | | 6, xx, 4 | 8-17 ... Intangible arm on frames 19-24
Spinning Kong (Air) | 4-6, *12-43, *44-67 | 92 | 40 | 20+ | 7, 4/4, xx | 3-6 ... Intangible arms on frames 12-43 ... Flexing Lag = 30
Chopper Kong | N/A | xx | 30 | xx | N/A | Goes higher than air version
Chopper Kong (Air) | N/A | xx | 30 | 4+? | N/A | 2-3? ... Intangible arms on frames 2-23?
Kong Cyclone | 19 , 20-46? , 49 | 71 | | | 4, 10 | 20-45
Kong Cyclone (Air) | 3-6 , 15-39? , 41 | 67 | 40 | 23+? | xx, 8 | 3-6 ... 15-35 ... Transitions to the ground version if you land early

Down B

Each pair of slaps is 27 frames apart for all grounded Down B's
All Down B's have transcendent priority except Focused Slap in the air​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Shieldstun | Notes
Hand Slap | 19-20, 30-31, 46-47, 57-58, … | Add 43 to the last active frame | 10, 10 | If you stop at 2 slaps it ends on frame 74
Hand Slap (Air) | 19-21, 28-30 | 61 | 4, 5 | Landing Lag = 30
Focused Slap | 17-18, 28-29, 44-45, 55-56, ... | Add 43 to the last active frame | 6, 10 | If you stop at 2 slaps it ends on frame 72
Focused Slap (Air) | 16-18, 26-28 | 58 | 6, 10 | Landing Lag = 30
Hot Slap | 13-14, 24-25, 40-41, 51-52, ... | Add 50 to the last active frame | 4, 8 | If you stop at 2 slaps it ends on frame 75
Hot Slap (Air) | 11-13, 21-23 | 53 | 4, 4 | Landing Lag = 30

Dodge Data​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Spot Dodge | 4-19 | 28 | Goes into Z-axis
Front Roll | 4-16 | 29 | Can cancel into item toss
Back Roll | 4-16 | 29 | Can cancel into item toss
Air Dodge | 4-29 | 34 | Landing Lag = 21

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Ground Tech | 1-20 | 26 |
Tech Roll | 1-20 | 40 |
Trip Get Up | 1-16 | 21 |
Trip Forward Roll | 1-9 | 28 |
Trip Back Roll | 1-9 | 28 |

Ledge Data​

*22 Frames when buffering Ledge Roll/Jump/Atk​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Ledge Grab | 3-24?+ | *24 | Air time before grabbing the ledge and damage affect how long your intangibility lasts
Ledge Climb | 1-33 | 34 | Can't be buffered during Ledge Grab
Ledge Roll | 1-30 | 49
Ledge Jump | 1-12 | 12 | Can't buffer actions during jump
Ledge Atk | 23-25 | 55 | 1-20

Misc. Attacks​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Get Up Atk on Back | 18-19, 23-24 | 45 | 1-24 ... 8 Bonus shield damage per hit
Get Up Atk on Stomach | 18-19, 23-24 | 45 | 1-24 ... 8 Bonus shield damage per hit
Trip Atk | 19-20, 24-25 | 49 | 1-7 ... 8 Bonus shield damage per hit
Pummel | 9-10 | 19 | Total includes hitlag (stale pummels may have 1 or 2 less frames of hitlag)

Cargo Hold Throws

Weight does not affect the speed or lag of these throws
​

Move | Throwing Frame | Total Frames | Notes
Cargo Hold | N/A | 19 + N | 1-18 ... Has Heavy Armor until you start a throw ... N = extra holding time
Ftoss | 15 | 45 | Angle = 60 ... Can regrab the opponent (no grab immunity)
Btoss | 16 | 42 | Angle = 72 ... Can regrab the opponent (no grab immunity)
Utoss | 15 | 29 | Angle = 92 ... Can regrab the opponent (no grab immunity)
Dtoss | 17 | 44 | Angle = 48 ... Can regrab the opponent (no grab immunity) ... Floats and stalls your momentum after tossing them

Regular Throws

Throw startup and cooldown are affected by weight. Values shown are default values (100 weight?)
​

Move | Throwing Frame | Total Frames | Notes
Bthrow | 15 | 39 | 1-18
Uthrow | 14 | 43 | 1-18
Dthrow | 24 | 59 | 1-18

Item Data​

Tested using bananas for small items
*Hitbox is active as long as the item is airborne​

Move | *Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Small Item Fthrow | 10+ | 38 |
Small Item Bthrow | 14+ | 38 |
Small Item Uthrow | 15+ | 38 |
Small Item Dthrow | 8+ | 30 |
Small Item Dash Throw | 6+ | 39 |

Can move freely while airborne
*Must end in the air, otherwise use the ground values​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Small Item Fthrow (Air) | 10+ | 37* |
Small Item Bthrow (Air) | 14+ | 34* |
Small Item Uthrow (Air) | 15+ | 36* |
Small Item Dthrow (Air) | 8+ | 28* |
Z-Drop | 1+ | 1 |

Tested using crates for large items​

Move | *Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Large Item Fthrow | 14+ | 30 | Same data in air ... Can't move freely while airborne
Large Item Bthrow | 16+ | 30 | Same data in air ... Can't move freely while airborne
Large Item Uthrow | 12+ | 22 | Same data in air ... Can't move freely while airborne
Large Item Dthrow | 11+ | 26 | Same data in air ... Can't move freely while airborne

Tested using beam sword and home-run bat​

Move | *Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Item Jab | 4-5 | 25 |
Item Discard | 7+ | 27 | Done by pressing Shield + A without holding a direction
Item Ftilt | 8-9 | 37 |
Item Fsmash | 15-16 | 51 | Charges on frame 7
Home-Run Bat Fsmash | 51-52 | 80 | SA on frames 41-50 ... Instant shield break
Item Dash Atk | 7-13 | 44 | Weak hit on frames 10-13

Extra Stuff​

Short Hop 27-40 Airborne frames (27 with earliest fast fall timing)

Full Hop 42-58 Airborne frames (42 with earliest fast fall timing)

Jump Squat 6 Frames before airborne (How long your jump takes to go from the ground to the air)

Soft Landing Lag 2 Frames (SH landing w/o an aerial)

AC/Hard Landing Lag 5 Frames (Landing at high fall speed or with an AC'd aerial)

Shield 1-11 + N / 18 + N (N = extra time due to holding shield ... Powershield = 1-3)

Initial Dash 1-15 / 29 (Can transition to run after frame 15, allowing you to block as soon as frame 16)

Dash Dance/Pivot Window 5 (First 5 frames of Initial Dash can be canceled into a pivot/dash in the opposite direction)

Turn Skid 16-31 (Can cancel into Ftilt, Fsmash, Back Roll, or Jump ... Lag based on momentum)

Run Stop 22 (Lag after stopping from a run .. Can cancel into Jump or Back Roll)

Ledge Trump Lag 28 Frames

 

[Big O]

Any changes made by the new patches will be noted below temporarily.

1.06

- Ledge Roll 1-30/49 ... 10 less recovery frames (possible 1 frame mistake in old intangibility or buff)
- Ledge Atk ends frame 55 ... 4 less recovery frames
- Giant Punch Charge ~140-153 ... approximately 19 frames less charge time from 0

1.08

- Cargo Ftoss 45 total frames ... 10 less recovery frames
- Cargo Btoss 42 total frames ... 12 less recovery frames
- Cargo Dtoss 44 total frames ... 15 less recovery frames, Throws 1 frame earlier

1.10

- Dash Attack 9-24/41 ... Starts 1 frame earlier, lasts 4 frames longer, and ends 7 frames earlier.
- Spot Dodge, Forward and Backward Rolls ... 1 less frame of intangibility (global nerf to all characters)
- Fsmash has intangible head/arms on frames 20-26

- Changes to shield hitlag mechanics have made all moves with higher than normal hitlag modifiers safer on shield (Fair's spike +4, Fsmash +3, Kong Cyclone's last hit +3, Focused Slap's second hit +4)

1.1.1

- Back Roll and Forward Roll have 1 less frame of intangibility (global nerf to all characters)
- Getup Attack and Trip Attack bonus shield damage nerfed 10 -> 8 (global nerf to all characters)
- All Side B's bonus shield damage nerfed 30 -> 25
- All Punches bonus shield damage nerfed 2 -> 0

- Changes to shield mechanics have normalized all shield hitlag to match the hitlag of the attack (Hitlag no longer affects shield safety except vs projectiles)
- Shieldstun has been adjusted to slightly higher than Melee levels
- Powershielding window nerfed 4 frames -> 3 frames
- Powershieldstun is now slightly less than shieldstun (used to be the same)
- Minimum shield duration (shield lock) now overlaps with shieldstun instead of being separate (penalty for barely missing powershield drastically reduced/eliminated)

New shieldstun chart below

Move | 1.1.0 Effective Shieldstun | 1.1.1 Shieldstun | 1.1.1 Powershieldstun | 1.1.1 Frame advantage
Jab1 | 1 | 4 | 3 | -15 (-6 Jab2)
Jab2 | 2 | 5 | 4 | -23
Dash Atk (Strong/Weak) | 3/3 | 7/6 | 5/5 | -25 to -11


Ftilt (Up/Side/Down) | 4/3/3 | 8/7/7 | 6/5/5 | -20/-21/-21
Utilt (Shoulder/Elbow/Hand) | 4/3/3 | 8/7/7 | 6/5/5 | -27/-28/-28 to -22
Dtilt (Close/Far) | 2/2 | 6/5 | 4/4 | -9/-10


Fsmash (Far/Close) | 5/5 | 13/13 | 9/9 | -19
Usmash | 7 | 12 | 8 | -23
Dsmash | 6/7/5 (Normal/Fist/Shoulder) | 11/12/10 | 8/8/7 | -33/-30/-34


Nair | 4/3 (Strong/Weak) | 8/6 | 6/5 | -20 to -6 (No Land) -9/-11 (Immediate Land) -13 to +1 (Quickest AC)
Fair | 6/3 (Normal/Spike) | 11/10 | 8/7
Bair | 5/3 (Strong/Weak) | 9/6 | 6/5 | -15 to -9 (No Land) -9/-12 (Immediate Land) -19 to 13 (Quickest AC)
Uair | 5 | 9 | 6 | -22 to -18 (No Land) -16 (Immediate Land) -15 to -11(Quickest AC)
Dair | 6/5 (Normal/Sourspot) | 11/9 | 8/6


Giant Punch (Not Fully Charged) | 2-11 | 5-19 | 4-13
Giant Punch (Charged) | 10 | 18 | 12 | -10
Giant Punch (Air Charged) | 9 | 16 | 11 | -12
Lightning Punch (Charged Ground/Air) | 3/3 | 10/9 | 7/7 | -10
Lightning Punch (Not Fully Charged) | 2-6 | 5-11 | 4-8
Storm Punch (Charged Ground/Air) | 7/5 | 12/10 | 8/7
Storm Punch (Not Fully Charged) | 2-6 | 5-11 | 4-8

Headbutt | 3 | 7 | 5
Jumping Headbutt (Air/Ground) | 3/3 | 7/6 | 5/4
Stubborn Headbutt | 5 | 9 | 6


Spinning Kong | 2, 1, 1 | 6, xx, 4 | 4, xx, 3
Spinning Kong (Air) | 3, 1/1, 1 | 7, 4/4, xx | 5, 3/3, xx
Kong Cyclone | 1, 4 | 4, 10 | 3, 7
Kong Cyclone (Air) | 1, 3 | xx, 8 | xx, 6


Hand Slap | 10 | 10 | 7
Hand Slap (Air) | 1, 2 | 4, 5 | 3, 4
Focused Slap | 8, -1 | 6, 10 | 4, 7
Focused Slap (Air) | -2, 4 | 6, 8 | 4, 6
Hot Slap | 4, 4 | 4, 8 | 3, 6
Hot Slap (Air) | 1, 1 | 4, 4 | 3, 3

 

[Brickbox]

I am away from my computer for a couple days but I can spruce up the look if no one hasby the time I get back. I also have some questions and suggestions I'll post later. Fantastic work so far!

 

[Chief Chili]

Great work! I was wondering whether or not aerial up b had invincibility frames.

 

[itsaxelol]

lol man even dk got nerfed in his bair. 3 extra landing lag frames. i wonder why they nerfed dks everything but then went ahead and made bowser

 

[Man Li Gi]

Dtilt went from 6-9 frames to 7-9.
Dsmash was at frame 8. At frame 11 now....ugh.

 

[Brickbox]

D tilt nerf I can deal with but the d smash one is sad
up tilt 4 days I guess.

 

[itsaxelol]

the range data and hitbox data is gong to be interesting. i feel ftilt, fsmash, dsmash utlilt in front are all nerfed in range. fair dair are embarrassingly neutered in range and hitbox

 

[Brickbox]

So I want (with the help of Big O) to make a table and input the frame data. I want it to look really nice and for it to be as helpful as possible.

I want it to have lots of columns that make it very easy to spot all the aspects of the move.
what columns should I do? Help me think of everything possible that would be usefull.
I was thinking.

• Move name
• Move thumbnail (shows a small image of the move)
  
• Damage
• Start up
• Active Frames
• Cool down (frames after active frames are finished)
  
• Super armor frames
• total frames
• Shield stun or advantage on non power shield (kinda like how street fighter measures moves -5 on block)
  
• Leave a blank space open for hitbox data for the future
• Other things that people suggest.

Help me out with this guys, let me know what order you think these should go in and if you have any suggestions whatsoever

 

[Big O]

@ Brickbox For now I think the higher priority things should be in the first few columns and the less important things be in the latter columns. That being said, I think this would be the most helpful order for most people.

High priority info

Active Frames | Total Frames | Special Frames
​

I think these 3 categories would be a good starting point. At a glance, looking at these three columns should tell most people what they really want to know. When it hits, how laggy the move is, and when does all the cool stuff happen?

Personally, I'm not a fan of startup/cooldown format. Startup in particular doesn't sound useful to know since the active frames already kinda tell you the startup of the move anyway. Cooldown is useful to know, but it is trivial to calculate and if I get around to doing shieldstun (like x is -5 on block) that's probably all anyone is going to care about as far as how laggy an attack is. If startup/cooldown is to be included, I think maybe you could put it at the end or in a separate thing like a cheat sheet type thing. Perhaps other people should weigh in on this as well. I just wouldn't want to see like 10 columns of bloat or w/e. I also think it's just simpler to say jab hits on frames 5-6 rather than saying it has 4 startup and 2 active frames.

As far as what should be in the the first column, I think there should be emphasis on 3 things. Differentiating between hits, frame specific sweetspots/sourspots, and things like windboxes. Something that is more or less brief and clear. Perhaps things like Up B could have like a dropdown box for the details of the mutlihits and just put 25-59?

In the second column, I think all "lag" related things could be put there too. Like for aerials it would be total frames, then landing lag next to that and maybe Auto-Canceling could go here too.

In the last column, things like Super Armor, Invincibility, Ledge Grab Window, etc. would be listed. I think there'd be too many columns if we had to have a separate column for each category, but again I guess it's better to ask what the people want. Perhaps it could be generalized to include details like when the jump happens during Jumping Headbutt.

If this thread becomes an all encompassing hub of data, then stuff like damage, hitbox size, knockback growth, base knockback, etc. can be added in later. For now though I'd like to keep things simple. Perhaps that stuff could go in the second post. All that stuff is in mastercore2 currently if anyone is curious about it.

 

[Brickbox]

Yeah I think keeping it simple is a good idea, but I also want it to be easy to use for new players and easily usable.

I really like the 3 main categories you came up with a lot. I decided to re-arranged things a bit, I feel like lag should be the last column because it is the last part of the move.
I feel like the sub categories are necessary, even though there is a lot of them, the main categories keep it simple enough.

this is a very rough version of my idea.

maybe I should use color coding for the sweet spot/sour spot and combine it into one column.

Like: Green = Sweet. Red = Sour.
Then just color the frames accordingly.

Is the color coding to complex? I like it, it works great in this thread. (colors would be changed most likely. I just picked random ones)

 

[Big O]

The reason I put special frames last is because not every move has something, and it would look weird having the middle box empty for like 80% of the moves. I guess it depends on whether or not we put everything in one big box, make a few boxes with a group similar moves, or make separate boxes for each move. I'm leaning towards a few boxes with groups of similar moves.

I like the idea of having a few subsections within the three main columns when necessary. Stuff like what colors we use and all that can be easily changed later. I suppose we can iron out the details as needed. It's not like anything is final atm and stuff that doesn't turn out well can be changed.

 

[Brickbox]

Ok, yeah now that you point it out not many moves do have special frames.

How about this?
We use the "Active Frame info" and the "Lag Frame info" sections and subsections as our main table.

Then we make "Special Frame info" into a desperate table that only contains the moves with special frames since there isn't main.
Then in the main table we will put a colored asterisk (prob spelled that wrong) next to the move name showing that the move contains special frames.

Also is the "Auto cancels" subsection necessary? now that I look at it I don't think people really need to know what frame and air attack auto cancels on. especially since there is so few air attacks that auto cancel.

 

[Big O]

Uair and Nair AC times are important to know. Uair has more landing lag than Dair if you don't land at the right time. Nair can combo into stuff because it AC's right after the hitbox ends. Fair is bugged and buffering an aerial after it forces full landing lag until the second portion of the AC window.

I suppose we could keep the special frames part if I put in some of the more obscure info about the moves. Stuff like limb intangibility and momentum stuff.

 

[Brickbox]

Ok, great to know.

I think keeping it as a separate table is a good idea. If you we end up seeing that a lot of moves have special frames we can just move it.

I'll most likely start working on this tomorrow night, thanks for the input Big O, you really know your stuff.

 

[Brickbox]

Double post >.>

Here is couple tables I did, not sure how useful they are but I like having them on hand as an image.

These are pretty easy for me to edit so make sure you point out any mistakes.



http://oi58.tinypic.com/64jvo0.jpg

http://oi57.tinypic.com/ofznlu.jpg

 

[Big O]

@ Brickbox I like how it looks currently. I would just get rid of the AC and landing lag columns for the ground moves.

 

[Brickbox]

Ground attacks
http://oi57.tinypic.com/u0ppf.jpg

Air attacks
http://oi57.tinypic.com/ofznlu.jpg

Specials (not including customs)
http://oi61.tinypic.com/fokmdu.jpg

So far so good, I should have the rest done soon

 

[Big O]

Hmm I'm thinking we could maybe do 4 groups of specials. That way people can just see all the differences between them easily and each group won't be too big.

All the ground/air/uncharged/charged variants of the Neutral B's can be in one group. All the Side B's can be in another group. All the grounded/aerial variants of the Up B's can be in a third group and and all the grounded/aerial variants of the Down B's can be in the last group of specials. If the Neutral B's group becomes too big, we can split it into charged vs uncharged.

Looking at what you got so far, I noticed a few small things

-I think you forgot Side B in the specials chart. Also for Fair, you wrote 22-22 for when it spikes instead of 21-22.

-It would be a little easier to read if each hit had it's own line in the active frames part

-In the case of Up B, perhaps we should put 3 different portions (19, 25-59, 62 and 4-6, 12-43, 44-67) in the main part, then maybe put the detailed info in the special frames section. Maybe saying those parts hit 5/4/3 times would suffice.

 

[Brickbox]

I can do that for sure with the specials. Do you have ms word? I could make the docs and have you proof them before I upload them as images(it would save me time and you could edit them and put on final touches.

It is pretty easy to whip these up and edit them, turning them into high quality images is really the only part that is a pain.

 

[Big O]

Ya I have ms word. Just send me the docs whenever and I'll take a look at them.

 

[Luigi player]

nice, thanks for doing this again like in Brawl : )

though there has to be an error with DKs grounded charged punch. it can't have superarmor on frames 11-20. maybe it's a typo and 17-20 like in the air? because the superarmor starts REALLY late this time around, which is a shame...

 

[Big O]

nice, thanks for doing this again like in Brawl : )

though there has to be an error with DKs grounded charged punch. it can't have superarmor on frames 11-20. maybe it's a typo and 17-20 like in the air? because the superarmor starts REALLY late this time around, which is a shame...

I just quickly re-checked it in game by Dsmashing and punching at the same time with 2 DK's. The super armor definitely starts frame 11. Also, it starts earlier in this game than it did in Brawl, unless you do it in the air in which case it's same as in Brawl.

 

[Luigi player]

I just quickly re-checked it in game by Dsmashing and punching at the same time with 2 DK's. The super armor definitely starts frame 11. Also, it starts earlier in this game than it did in Brawl, unless you do it in the air in which case it's same as in Brawl.

Weird... you're right, on the ground it starts really early. Sorry I bothered you with that. xD I guess the aerial punch kinda seems to have a lot less if you compare it to the grounded one, but still, the aerial one really seems less than in Brawl to me... maybe it's just the animation that makes it seem a little different... oh well, good to know for sure how it is.

 

[Big O]

Updated with tables.

 

[Brickbox]

Wooo! good stuff.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Should I just merge my topic/thread "Whiffy Kong" with this? It seems like this will be the main hub for DK stuff. Also, this should be stickied.

 

[Brickbox]

I feel like maybe someone should make a dk directory thread that links to all the important threads, then just sticky that?

 

[Big O]

Updated with cargo throws, item stuff, and a few random things like punch charge times and pivot stuff.

 

[ZHMT]

Is the AC/Hard landing lag universal? I was testing it a bit and it seems as if it could be higher for heavies and lower for lightweighted characters. I don't think Sheiks fair has 5 frames landing lag, perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Big O]

Is the AC/Hard landing lag universal? I was testing it a bit and it seems as if it could be higher for heavies and lower for lightweighted characters. I don't think Sheiks fair has 5 frames landing lag, perhaps I'm wrong.

In Brawl it varied per character with Samus having 4 frames, DK having 5, and Bowser having 6. I have only tested DK and Ganon who both have 5 frames in this game. I wouldn't be surprised if some characters had lower hard landing lag values.

In Brawl, AC landing lag was the same as empty/air dodge landing and could either be soft landing lag (2 frames) or hard landing lag (4-6) based on your fall speed when you land. In this game it appears to always be hard landing lag.

 

[YourFaithfulStudent]

how do you figure out Disjointed hitboxes?

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

In Brawl it varied per character with Samus having 4 frames, DK having 5, and Bowser having 6. I have only tested DK and Ganon who both have 5 frames in this game. I wouldn't be surprised if some characters had lower hard landing lag values.

In Brawl, AC landing lag was the same as empty/air dodge landing and could either be soft landing lag (2 frames) or hard landing lag (4-6) based on your fall speed when you land. In this game it appears to always be hard landing lag.

Fastfall landings and regular speed landings have different frame durations?

 

[YourFaithfulStudent]

Yeah I think keeping it simple is a good idea, but I also want it to be easy to use for new players and easily usable.

I really like the 3 main categories you came up with a lot. I decided to re-arranged things a bit, I feel like lag should be the last column because it is the last part of the move.
I feel like the sub categories are necessary, even though there is a lot of them, the main categories keep it simple enough.

this is a very rough version of my idea.

maybe I should use color coding for the sweet spot/sour spot and combine it into one column.

Like: Green = Sweet. Red = Sour.
Then just color the frames accordingly.

Is the color coding to complex? I like it, it works great in this thread. (colors would be changed most likely. I just picked random ones)

this looks beautiful!
and i need to ask, what is "adv. on shield"

 

[itsaxelol]

Landing on frames 12-17 causes you to never get super armor

lol every time i look at this thread i see more dk nerfs

 

[Big O]

Landing on frames 12-17 causes you to never get super armor

lol every time i look at this thread i see more dk nerfs

Yeah honestly I'm shocked at how buggy he is when Brawl DK was mostly fine. I'll probably update this soon with Shieldstun.

Fastfall landings and regular speed landings have different frame durations?

There are 2 different landing lags you can get (soft and hard) assuming you don't land with an aerial. Soft landing lag is 2 frames and hard landing lag is 5 frames. Which one you get depends on how fast you are falling before you land. A short hop emppty landing will be soft. A full hop or short hop fast falled landing will be hard.

how do you figure out Disjointed hitboxes?

Intangible limbs are hard coded into some attacks, making them disjointed. Other attacks just have really fat hitboxes like Side B and Down B. You can tell to a certain degree how disjointed a move is by hitting bombs and seeig how far away you can hit it without getting hit.

this looks beautiful!
and i need to ask, what is "adv. on shield"

Adv. on shield is basically the difference between how soon you can act and how soon they can act after something is blocked. Pretty much every move will be negative on block except some projectiles and z dropped items.

 

[Luigi player]

Giant Punch: "Landing on frames 12-17 causes you to never get super armor"

Oh wow, this is good to know... and it sucks. This probably explains why I sometimes felt like it only has SA for a very short time.
Also thanks again for doing this, it's soo useful and good to have all the data!

 

[itsaxelol]

@ Big O

big o or anyone who is frame data and range fancy, i have a bad habit on not dash attack grabbing. i always use running grab just out of habit. im conditioning myself otherwise, but in the meantime, how much of a difference does a dash attack cancel grab make for the king? it seems like barely any, but more obviously helps

 

[Big O]

@ Big O

big o or anyone who is frame data and range fancy, i have a bad habit on not dash attack grabbing. i always use running grab just out of habit. im conditioning myself otherwise, but in the meantime, how much of a difference does a dash attack cancel grab make for the king? it seems like barely any, but more obviously helps

As far as I can tell, there is no reason you should ever Dash Attack Canceled Grab (Boost Grabbing) instead of regular dash grab or running shield grab. When you Boost Grab, you are adding an extra slight delay of about 1-3 frames to the grab and getting no real extra distance. When compared to just running 1-3 frames longer before grabbing, it may even be slightly less range (that's just how it seemed to me).

In general all variations of dash grabbing (including Roll Canceled Grabs) are more or less the same range (or slightly lower) as regular dash grabbing, but add unnecessary inputs that you might mess up. The 1.04 patch basically nerfed Roll Canceled Grabs out of usefulness for most characters and removed all DACUS from the game. I'm not sure if Boost Grabbing was ever useful in Samsh 4, but I assume Boost Grabbing also died when DACUS got removed. Only regular dash grabs and running shield grabs are worth doing for DK atm.

 

[Man Li Gi]

As far as I can tell, there is no reason you should ever Dash Attack Canceled Grab (Boost Grabbing) instead of regular dash grab or running shield grab. When you Boost Grab, you are adding an extra slight delay of about 1-3 frames to the grab and getting no real extra distance. When compared to just running 1-3 frames longer before grabbing, it may even be slightly less range (that's just how it seemed to me).

In general all variations of dash grabbing (including Roll Canceled Grabs) are more or less the same range (or slightly lower) as regular dash grabbing, but add unnecessary inputs that you might mess up. The 1.04 patch basically nerfed Roll Canceled Grabs out of usefulness for most characters and removed all DACUS from the game. I'm not sure if Boost Grabbing was ever useful in Samsh 4, but I assume Boost Grabbing also died when DACUS got removed. Only regular dash grabs and running shield grabs are worth doing for DK atm.

Sakurai currently thinks DK is too strong in this game. There will be nothing for us in the future.