Do the stages actually kill us, or is it our own fault?

[Flamingo]

ehhhhhhhhhhh sometimes you cant do anythin about the stages. ie. tripping...meh. they kill us.

 

[Agent P]

I suppose it's not our fault, The stages were meant to be traps for us.

But if you're stupid enough to fall into it if you know where the traps are, you should be blamed

 

[ExCeL 52]

I really don't get why you have to readjust your eyes. I think I'm missing something here, so please explain.
Also, if I shrink it anymore, Chris Jericho won't look like the god that he is, but some distorted freak.

Dont listen to these freaks telling you to shrink your sig...

Its beast mode .. and I laughed pretty hard when I saw it

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah you can. First of all, a transformation will never come a second time. Secondly, the TL has to weigh the risk when he commits to the approach, and if he is unlucky he will be punished for taking the risk. I can predict when the transformations come, every time. They come at set intervals. When one of those intervals occurs, I don't place myself where a hazard that hasn't appeared yet could be unless it's weak enough that I consider it worth the risk. A good player will still follow the opponent offstage, but when it's the time for the hazard to appear, they won't be where the missiles appear unless they think it's worth the risk.

In short, can the stage kill you? If it does it's your own fault for taking the risk.

The second you brought the word luck into your argument, brings the rest of whatever you said down. Luck is exactly what I am talking about. You backed up my positions if anything. Luck is not control-able. Why would I have to weight the risks? A good player should know the perfect timing of a hyphen smash when punishing a predictable roll or a predictable tech, should they not? You talk about good players knowing about stage predictions but not tech chasing and frames?

Another thing. If my opponent pressures me into a position, and then the missles appear when I am there, it's not my fault either.
"Yes it is, you shouldn't be pressured into that position, YOUR FAULT." No, that's bull****. Pressure if part of the game, no one can avoid it, not even the best smashers can avoid getting pressured. So at this point even if I knew exactly what hazard was coming, I would have to either get hit by my opponent or get hit by the hazard. I die either way and therefore the stage forced me to die or actually killed me.

 

[The_Altrox]

What I meant to say about Picto chat is that the obstacles come without warning and they are random. If you could tell what was coming next, it would be a bit more balanced.

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

They come at specific times.

Parts of Norfair are predictable. It always starts the same way, for instance.

Well true but the lava shoots that come from the back of the stage are so long u have hardly anytime to avoid not to mention when 3 come all at once

 

[EmperorB-rad2kj]

They come at specific times.

Parts of Norfair are predictable. It always starts the same way, for instance.

Well the lava shoots from the back of the stage come out fast & come out in 3's sumtimes so theres hardly time to react.

 

[Geist]

The reason the stages are counterpicks is because the obstacles CAN be avoided easily. If you are killed in one of these stages, it's the player's fault.

Banned stages, like spear pillar, are banned because they are random and unpredictable, and usually kill you way more.

 

[Alphicans]

Don't say "If you are killed in one of these stages, it's the players fault," without some serious backup, because I am not convinced. I agree CP's are CP's because the hazards are more easily avoidable, but there are numerous, albeit unlikely, scenarios when the stage is entirely at fault, or at least 95%.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

We're humans, we make mistakes and get hit by the **** lava

 

[sonic 12111]

no i blame the ic stage. i always get eaten by the fish. how do u predict the fish

 

[The_Altrox]

no i blame the ic stage. i always get eaten by the fish. how do u predict the fish

That stage is banned because of the fish

 

[Deoxys]

The second you brought the word luck into your argument, brings the rest of whatever you said down. Luck is exactly what I am talking about. You backed up my positions if anything. Luck is not control-able. Why would I have to weight the risks? A good player should know the perfect timing of a hyphen smash when punishing a predictable roll or a predictable tech, should they not? You talk about good players knowing about stage predictions but not tech chasing and frames?

Umm, why would I start talking about tech chasing and frames? I'm talking about how good players weigh risks on stages, not how to be a good player in general. While a good player should know the perfect timing to punish, they should also know the risks involved when doing so on Pictochat. You should have to weigh the risks because that's part of the game. When Azen's Lucario is recovering against M2K, he has to weigh risks: should he go for the edge with Extremespeed and risk being KO'd by edgehogging, or should he go for the stage and risk being smashed during his landing lag? Your argument doesn't even make sense... you'd have to weigh the risks because that's how you play the game well. If you don't, you're mindlessly taking a risk and will lose some matches to it. The stage isn't any more responsible than your poor judgement would be.

Another thing. If my opponent pressures me into a position, and then the missles appear when I am there, it's not my fault either.
"Yes it is, you shouldn't be pressured into that position, YOUR FAULT." No, that's bull****. Pressure if part of the game, no one can avoid it, not even the best smashers can avoid getting pressured. So at this point even if I knew exactly what hazard was coming, I would have to either get hit by my opponent or get hit by the hazard. I die either way and therefore the stage forced me to die or actually killed me.

It is your fault. Your opponent used the stage to kill you. If I grab you on Halberd after the cannon just fired, and throw you into the blast for the KO, would you say, "****, the stage killed me?" Of course not. You were beaten by the player. Being pressured into an undesirable position is no less avoidable than being grabbed.

In your example, you can shield right when the transformation will occur. Sure, it's extremely hard to time it that well, but it's not the stage's fault you weren't amazing enough at the game to powershield the missile.

 

[Alphicans]

It is your fault. Your opponent used the stage to kill you. If I grab you on Halberd after the cannon just fired, and throw you into the blast for the KO, would you say, "****, the stage killed me?"

This is not the same as what I said. This is non-related

 

[The Milk Monster]

no i blame the ic stage. i always get eaten by the fish. how do u predict the fish

Don't go in the water?

 

[Deoxys]

This is not the same as what I said. This is non-related

How is it different? Letting yourself get pressured and letting yourself get grabbed are highly comparable. Are you saying that it's different because there is no luck involved with the cannon example?

 

[Alphicans]

Getting grabbed and getting pressure are two different things. Avoiding the grab is easier then getting pressured. Also in your example, it is a testament of my opponents good timing, and my bad DI. I should be able to DI properly out of the grab to avoid the cannon.

 

[Deoxys]

Getting grabbed and getting pressure are two different things. Avoiding the grab is easier then getting pressured. Also in your example, it is a testament of my opponents good timing, and my bad DI. I should be able to DI properly out of the grab to avoid the cannon.

Not necessarily about the DI. You can't always influence the trajectory enough to escape the cannon.

 

[Alphicans]

That depends where the cannon is, but generally you can DI away from it, or when you get hit by it, DI in such a way not much matters. Plus air dodging is really easy as well.

 

[The_Altrox]

That depends where the cannon is, but generally you can DI away from it, or when you get hit by it, DI in such a way not much matters. Plus air dodging is really easy as well.

Then the stage won't be giving you any problems, correct?

 

[Alphicans]

Well on that stage, the laser is probably the biggest concern. It's easy to avoid on stage, and you have lots of time to get away, but I am sure there are off stage scenarios that just cannot be avoided. The claw is also pretty stupid, but I don't know what to say about that one.

 

[The Milk Monster]

The hazards in Halberd are so crazy easy to avoid.

 

[Adler]

I don't believe it's the Character's Fault or the Stage's.
I believe it's the Winner's Fault.

Think. If Dedede can throw you into a Missle on Pictochat then it just ups the stakes and it's just another tactic you or your opponent can use.

If it keeps happening then a Metagame tactic will be created to get out of it (such as 'Don't get grabbed') (I can think of a better one in time).

 

[Sphyra]

Playing on pirate ship yesterday. All this during the recovery time of a forward smash; catapult comes out under me and proceeds to immediately fling me to my death before I can move again.

I'm going to go with stage killed me on that one.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You guys do know that the missile on PictoChat does fixed knockback and NEVER kills, right? If you get hit into it and die, you would have died even if it weren't there. So, when you get pressured into the thing, it's not "the stage killed me". At worst, it's "the stage did 20% to me". Of course, things could have been reversed so easily, and you could have been the one pressuring your opponent into taking 20% thanks to that missile.

The argument "you can't avoid pressure so we should ban stage features that punish you for being under pressure" is a very poor one. You can't realistically avoid taking damage either; all the best pros do. Should we ban things that punish you for taking damage (i.e. kill moves)? It's obviously absurd. You can't avoid being pressured, but you can reduce how much you are pressured while simultaneously putting more pressure on your opponent. No, you won't be avoiding ever getting hit by hazards, but what you can do, with skillful play, is ensure that your opponent gets hit more than you (and, when both players are good at playing on stages with hazards, neither gets hit very often at all anyway). That's what you need to win, and these stages do indeed produce consistent results.

You can DI the knockback on the catapult; I'm pretty sure it simply can't kill at reasonable percentages. I have been a longstanding advocate of banning Pirate Ship for other reasons (water stalling), but the catapult is obviously a trivial hazard.

If you are by yourself, you pretty much suck if you ever get hit by a hazard on any stage (even Spear Pillar or Mario Bros.). When you factor in opponents, a few stages get to be too much to handle realistically (Mario Bros. for sure, arguably Spear Pillar even though it's auto-banned for the loop anyway, arguably Port Town Aero Dive), but the hazards on every other stage are both predictable and avoidable enough that they are either trivial or easily able to be manipulated into being a part of a coherent strategy. At worst, you can argue that on a few of the stages (Green Hill Zone, Flat Zone 2) the strategies that evolve around the hazards become incredibly centralizing to the point where a very significant number of matches there will boil down to playing either Super Checkpoint Brother Brawl or Super Lion Form Brothers Brawl, but that's not grounds to dismiss hazards as an interesting and valuable part of gameplay in the abstract.

 

[JPOBS]

well brawl has way less neutrals than melee did and pretty much every level thats not smashville, FD and dreamland64 can kill you 0_o

 

[The Milk Monster]

You guys do know that the missile on PictoChat does fixed knockback and NEVER kills, right? If you get hit into it and die, you would have died even if it weren't there. So, when you get pressured into the thing, it's not "the stage killed me". At worst, it's "the stage did 20% to me". Of course, things could have been reversed so easily, and you could have been the one pressuring your opponent into taking 20% thanks to that missile.

The argument "you can't avoid pressure so we should ban stage features that punish you for being under pressure" is a very poor one. You can't realistically avoid taking damage either; all the best pros do. Should we ban things that punish you for taking damage (i.e. kill moves)? It's obviously absurd. You can't avoid being pressured, but you can reduce how much you are pressured while simultaneously putting more pressure on your opponent. No, you won't be avoiding ever getting hit by hazards, but what you can do, with skillful play, is ensure that your opponent gets hit more than you (and, when both players are good at playing on stages with hazards, neither gets hit very often at all anyway). That's what you need to win, and these stages do indeed produce consistent results.

You can DI the knockback on the catapult; I'm pretty sure it simply can't kill at reasonable percentages. I have been a longstanding advocate of banning Pirate Ship for other reasons (water stalling), but the catapult is obviously a trivial hazard.

If you are by yourself, you pretty much suck if you ever get hit by a hazard on any stage (even Spear Pillar or Mario Bros.). When you factor in opponents, a few stages get to be too much to handle realistically (Mario Bros. for sure, arguably Spear Pillar even though it's auto-banned for the loop anyway, arguably Port Town Aero Dive), but the hazards on every other stage are both predictable and avoidable enough that they are either trivial or easily able to be manipulated into being a part of a coherent strategy. At worst, you can argue that on a few of the stages (Green Hill Zone, Flat Zone 2) the strategies that evolve around the hazards become incredibly centralizing to the point where a very significant number of matches there will boil down to playing either Super Checkpoint Brother Brawl or Super Lion Form Brothers Brawl, but that's not grounds to dismiss hazards as an interesting and valuable part of gameplay in the abstract.

Every time you post, you post like a mountain of text, I never feel like reading it, haha.

 

[bobson]

You can DI the knockback on the catapult; I'm pretty sure it simply can't kill at reasonable percentages. I have been a longstanding advocate of banning Pirate Ship for other reasons (water stalling), but the catapult is obviously a trivial hazard.

The catapult knockback is fixed, in fact, and even Jigglypuff at 999% will never be killed by it unless the player sits there and watches like an idiot instead of DIing.

 

[The Milk Monster]

The catapult knockback is fixed, in fact, and even Jigglypuff at 999% will never be killed by it unless the player sits there and watches like an idiot instead of DIing.

Yeah I was gonna say it flings far, out of habit I DI every time it flings me, so I don't know if it could kill without or DI or not.

 

[FlashGamma]

My friends and I tend to shy away from counter-pick stages, simply for the fact that FD is a true arena that displays players' skills accurately. However, knowing how to use stages to your advantage is an important skill. I guess it all boils down to what you want out of that particular match. For serious matches and tournaments, counter-picks should be out; but for fun with friends, these stages add elements of play we aren't used to experiencing.

In short, stages don't kill you, getting knocked/thrown into hazards does.

Furthermore, always remember the cardinal rule of multiplayer gaming, "NO JOHNS!"

-Gamma

 

[The_Altrox]

Smashville is more balanced than FD. FD favors long range.

 

[XxBlackxX]

My friends and I tend to shy away from counter-pick stages, simply for the fact that FD is a true arena that displays players' skills accurately. However, knowing how to use stages to your advantage is an important skill. I guess it all boils down to what you want out of that particular match. For serious matches and tournaments, counter-picks should be out; but for fun with friends, these stages add elements of play we aren't used to experiencing.

In short, stages don't kill you, getting knocked/thrown into hazards does.

Furthermore, always remember the cardinal rule of multiplayer gaming, "NO JOHNS!"

-Gamma

wait...did you just say that CP stages are unfair for use in tournaments?
that's the POINT. the loser of the last match gets to CP a stage so that he has a better chance of winning. he is SUPPOSED to pick a stage that favors him/his character....

 

[Dynomite]

pork town doesnt kill you, even with the devil thing, ur fault for getting thrown into it.

 

[SYLAR]

It's your own fault for being killed by the stage. Just like it's your own fault for being killed by any computer or human-controlled opponent.

 

[Alphicans]

Why? So many people come in here saying this, but so few back it up.

EDIT: To Amazing Ampharos. I am not saying such stages should be banned due to these hazards, I am just answering the topic's question. I do believe there are certain scenarios where the stage kills you, whether it be by setting you up in such a way your opponent kills you, or if it actually kills you by knockback.

You guys do know that the missile on PictoChat does fixed knockback and NEVER kills, right?

Yes I did know this actually. But the knock back can put you into bad positions, especially if it appears right where you are, and smash DI is near impossible, let alone normal DI.

If you are by yourself, you pretty much suck if you ever get hit by a hazard on any stage (even Spear Pillar or Mario Bros.).

Why? Just because they are predictable does not mean they are easy to avoid. Hitting a shield with dash attack, because you thought you could hit your opponent in time, and then getting grabbed for it is predictable, does that mean I suck for getting grabbed? Of course not, it was just a simple mistake anyone makes. On halberd if I am off screen and the laser crosshare follows me, it is predictable, I know it is going to fire, but it would probably hit me anyways, since most good players will try to edgegaurd, and then force you to grab the edge, which results in the laser firing right at the ledge and I get hit by it. Does this mean I suck because it is predictable? No.

Those are the points I wanted to address in that. Other than that I think your post was actually a little bit off on a limb. There were things said that weren't really related to the discussion; like:

You can't avoid being pressured, but you can reduce how much you are pressured while simultaneously putting more pressure on your opponent. No, you won't be avoiding ever getting hit by hazards, but what you can do, with skillful play, is ensure that your opponent gets hit more than you (and, when both players are good at playing on stages with hazards, neither gets hit very often at all anyway). That's what you need to win, and these stages do indeed produce consistent results.

Could you elaborate why that is important to the discussion?

 

[:mad:]

I've always looked at some instances when you don't think far enough ahead.
If freefalling with no way to recover, you could easily be killed by a hazard (ie. the fish at summit, frigate's rotating stage, etc). Usually, these are easy to avoid, but there's always the variable of a Mario or Squirtle pushing your helpless character into the water, or to the side of a stage.

As far as I'm concerned, it's our own fault.

 

[KillerSOS]

Pictochat is the only one I think is unfair. Missiles appear without warning...

 

[Flamingo]

I can't VG on that stupid stage unless I sweetspot.... Stupid slanted edges.

 

[Deoxys]

Every time you post, you post like a mountain of text, I never feel like reading it, haha.

That's because he's a poster that backs up his arguments with data. BTW that is basically spam.

Playing on pirate ship yesterday. All this during the recovery time of a forward smash; catapult comes out under me and proceeds to immediately fling me to my death before I can move again.

I'm going to go with stage killed me on that one.

No, you chose to go on top of the catapult, you chose not to DI, and you chose to not tech the catapult. That's kind of like staying on a car on Big Blue until the car goes off the screen, at which point you are KO'd, and then saying, "Big Blue killed me."

Well on that stage, the laser is probably the biggest concern. It's easy to avoid on stage, and you have lots of time to get away, but I am sure there are off stage scenarios that just cannot be avoided. The claw is also pretty stupid, but I don't know what to say about that one.

The laser should never kill you... just DI out of it.

well brawl has way less neutrals than melee did and pretty much every level thats not smashville, FD and dreamland64 can kill you 0_o

Umm, dreamland 64 isn't in Brawl.

Pictochat is the only one I think is unfair. Missiles appear without warning...

Yes, in set places, during a transformation, which means you can also know when the interval comes in which they can appear.

 

[Katapultar]

Its the stages but don't forget about items! smart bombs appear without warning and all those yummy bombs. There are stage hazards like turtles but in the end you COULD have thought "I could have actually dodged that but thats a lesson to learn.