Do you still have hope for Ike?

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Hi guys, you might remember me as that guy who wrote the elaborate guide to matchups (speaking of which, don't go there right now, its under major reconstruction). I wanted to talk to you guys today about something very important to me, Ike's success at tournaments.

If you haven't attended a tournament in Brawl, with Ike, don't bother responding to this topic. Thank-you.


Since Brawl came out, Ike has had some interesting ups and downs. At the beginning, he was instantly flocked to by most n00bs due to raw power and ease of play. A few of us old timers liked the look of him as well for our various reasons. The Gamestop tournaments were packed with them, and the two top placers in the tournament where Ikes. We were in a golden time, so to speak.

Then people learned how to dodge and shield in Brawl's mechanics. Hitting with Ike offline is very very difficult, if anyone has attended a tournament offline yet. It's completely different than online where people can lag into your attacks. The higher end people are blocking 90% of Ike's moves on reaction nowadays. Mindgames can only take you so far, especially when you're against evenly matched opponents. But, this isn't what truly scares me.

What scares me is that Ike hasn't had any decent metagame development in weeks. Seriously, what POSITIVE and USEFUL things have we learned to make Ike competitive? Almost every character I read about is finding new thing quite regularly, even if they are simple. Ike doesn't even have these. Ike's not getting any better while the rest of the cast is still growing. Its because of this that I have my doubts about Ike as a whole.

Generally I aim this topic at the more competitive players. How are you fairing with your Ike at tournaments? Are you finding that your game is still improving BEYOND basic things like spacing and dodging (Which are universal traits and don't count)?

 

[DMStudios]

I'm finding new ways to approach, ledgeguard, ledge-hanging game, killing off the edge, throw to hit setups, and *gasp* start combos. Yes, they are only like 3 hits or so, but they hurt and sound awesome. In the last tourney I went to, I got a six hit combo on a good player, and did about 70% or so. Given, I should've killed him before he got that high (hehe), but it was cool to see.

 

[noobslayer]

OK, I'll say it outright.

I have not played in any Brawl tournaments since release.

If you don't want to read this post, then you're welcome to skip it, however even with a lack of strong opponents, I feel that I have the knowledge and skill to comment effectively.

With my experiences as Ike, I would have to say that mainly, you are right Trebor-Nella. Ike's meta-game is not as developed as many other characters, but I believe he can still fair fine in a tournament environment.

One thing I've noticed that still seems to wreck most people is Ike's edge game, both edge-guarding and recovering. While edgeguarding, I'm loving eruption more and more. It's likely a free KO if it hits, timed right I find I can get past auto-sweet spot recovery, and if they decided to try and get over you, releasing earlier than expected and going straight into a charged hyphen smash is great. Edge-hogging for Ike is also very nice. If they try to knock you up with their ^B, you can often land a Dair spike, and if they go over you, ledge hop to instant Bair works so well it's not even funny. To sum it up, I find edgeguarding as Ike to be safe and effective. Recovering from the ledge, Eruption is great as a surprise tactic after ledge-hopping to hit opponents that would otherwise predict you properly. Falling to Uair isn't too bad, and side-hopping to QD is fantastic for people waiting for you right on the ledge, as if they shield it, you fall and grab the ledge -- they can't punish you. Falling to more Aethers is also perfectly safe and just gives you another chance for free hits, regardless of if it works or not. I like Ike's edge game.

On land, I actually find myself using *gasp* Fsmash and QD more often now. The initial noob phase of spamming QDs as a beginner vanishes once you get better, but now I find QD great. Quite simply, it's too fast to react to most of the time if your opponent is unprepared. As I mix-up my game more, I simply find that QD becomes more and more likely to land; it's great for mind games as well. One second I'm pressuring my opponent with FF Nairs and Fairs, and the next I've QD'd in the opposite direction. It's a quick retreat that is unusual, perhaps making them slip up at something they haven't expected, and getting back to safe Fair range is never a bad thing for Ike. On Fsmash, I believe It's quite frankly not so much a kill move as a spacing and counter-aggression one. Launching an Fsmash on someone that is close enough to dodge is asking to be punished, but when an opponent is approaching and might jump or run into you, it's fairly safe and highly effective if they don't keep their range and get hit (this is a no-brainer). I don't know about anyone else, but the majority of the time I and the opponents get hit by a slow attack is when they hesitate and react too quickly, i.e. seeing a smash starting to charge and going for a dash-grab. One common example: another characters comes in with an aerial approach, and as they land they spot-dodge or shield a supposed incoming attack. They start to jab... but the attack hasn't come yet. and BAM They got blown of the screen by a point blank Fsmash.

Those are just a few of my many thoughts on Ike..
I don't know if I'm just blathering on about commonsensical tactics, but if any of the things I mentioned have any application in high-level play, I'm glad you decided to give my post a quick read.

Anyone else have ideas?

 

[ama(m/t)]

What scares me is that Ike hasn't had any decent metagame development in weeks. Seriously, what POSITIVE and USEFUL things have we learned to make Ike competitive? Almost every character I read about is finding new thing quite regularly, even if they are simple. Ike doesn't even have these. Ike's not getting any better while the rest of the cast is still growing. Its because of this that I have my doubts about Ike as a whole.

lalalal welcome to the future of brawl

 

[Taylor]

It's exactly what you say. Ike was instantly flocked to by most n00bs due to raw power and ease of play. A few of us old timers liked the look of him as well for our various reasons. But only a few.

Most experienced players from Melee take one look at Ike, and "LOW TIER LOW TIER" is already stamped in their minds. Newcomers may pick up Ike, but by the time they get to the competing level they've switched to Snake, or Marth, or someone else. The lack of a large enough pool of innovative players is what's keeping Ike from growing.

Granted, I've only played one tournament so far, and it was a pretty small one against about zero advanced players, but I spotted NO Ikes whatsoever. Out of 34 people, we had one Mario and Luigi, two Kirbys, one Pikachu, one Lucas, and two Ikes (including me). One person used Sonic, Rob, and Olimar. The rest were Snakes, Pits, Meta Knights, and Marths. The thing is, Ike isn't getting much recognition even at the semi-competitive level. Let's face it - Ike is not a character you'd pick if you started fresh in Brawl with the intention of competing. Extremely laggy moves and easily gimped recovery are somewhat offset by priority and power, but Ike just doesn't make the cut.

But, CAN Ike's metagame evolve any more? Every single tilt, smash, grab, and special has been evaluated to the fullest. Ike's moves are pretty straightforward and limited, whereas other characters have much more freedom in theirs. Marth's fair camping. IC's chaingrabs. Link's arsenal that could be used in so many different situations. What does Ike have in terms of moveset freedom? Because freedom is how the metagame evolves...

 

[VersatileBJN]

The slowness and limited aspects of Ike's moves don't allow for deep analysis or discovery.

Play smart

That's how Ike wins it's pretty simple.

There's but so much you can do with Fair, but what you can do is use it to it's max potential and be good with it. Same goes for jab and all of his other moves.

Just because he's not a "deep" character doesn't mean he can't win. In fact, Yoshi is far more complex/has way more to his meta game than Ike, but who's the better character?

 

[menofuntall]

Well, I'd like to start off saying that I have not attended an offline tourney yet, nor have I been in a completely lagless online match. I usually do get a very good connection with my sparring partner, though. He is one ****ing good MK. So I can't call my opinion accurate.

Earlier on, when Brawl was released, I was pretty much on par with said sparring partner. Using Ike, of course. As we went on, he started to get better and better. Nowadays? I have nearly no chance of beating his Metaknnight anymore. I mean, yes, I can get him down to 1 stock, but that's just as far as it goes. I don't know if it's my technical ability to blame or Ike just, unfortunately, sucking to blame. I have noticed that I've been using Quick Draw and Eruption less and less. However, I can rest assured tell that Ike has changed very little since the release of Brawl.

He hasn't been able to use many of these new techniques we've discovered. B-sticking is virtually useless with Ike (gee, I love moving an inch back when using Quick Draw). Pivot Dash Cancel doesn't work well with slow F Smashes. Hyphen Smash and B Reversal are the only ones I know that Ike benefits from, and the former is arguable. We've spent around 3 months on a game who's metagame is advancing much, much faster than Melee's. If we haven't discovered anything remotely useful at this rate, there is no real hope for Ike when it comes to advanced techniques.

Though, I think it's Ike himself who's the cause of all of this. He doesn't have anything too unique (like odd jumping with Ness/Lucas), and he's very straight forward. Crush the opponent with strong attacks and then pursue them. Most of his attacks are nothing new, just...attacks. No real unique attributes, they're just attacks. Nothing to abuse. Nothing to exploit. And just his overall strategy is lacking, too. He has very few ways of dealing with projectile spam. He's not hitting anyone blindingly fast soon.

Ike's game revolves around pressure. You'd be scared too, if you were up against a demon who could smack you to death at relatively low percents. Throughout the days, people have been getting better and better, and definitely better at defensive techniques. And they're getting more confident, too. When the opponent becomes confident in their ability to evade hits, all you're left with is some guy with a huge sword. Mindgames can only take you so far. To beat a Falco or something, you'd need to be like 3 times better than he is. That's a really far stretch, especially in a tournament environment where you're up against the best of the best.

In the end, we're no psychics. If we find just one universal tactic, it could mean the beginning or the end of Ike. To be frank, I'm betting on the end. Ike's physics are generally too unexploitable, and highly unlikely that a universal technique will benefit him very much.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

The slowness and limited aspects of Ike's moves don't allow for deep analysis or discovery.

Play smart

That's how Ike wins it's pretty simple.

There's but so much you can do with Fair, but what you can do is use it to it's max potential and be good with it. Same goes for jab and all of his other moves.

Just because he's not a "deep" character doesn't mean he can't win. In fact, Yoshi is far more complex/has way more to his meta game than Ike, but who's the better character?

See, this is the issue I see. "Play Smart" is a universal tactic that is involved with every character. You can play smart and get hits, but can that last long enough? Every quirk a character has give them another option. The more options you have, the deeper and more complex your mindgames are. The more complex your mindgames are, the more likely you are to score those game winning hits.

Ike doesn't do this well. His game is very straightforward, and I think in time, it'll be too straightforward to compete with characters would have TONS of options available to them. He'll either be predicted too well, or won't be able to answer all the crap thrown at him by the deep characters.
However, I could still be proven wrong. I'll admit that. I just don't see the same "growth" or "potential" that characters like Link and Ness had in Melee.

 

[metroid1117]

I haven't played in any Brawl tournaments before, but just as a note (sorry to ignore your request at the beginning of the thread, but other people have been doing it, so...) about Ike being straightforward: Ike has IASA frames during landing lag and a whiffed QD. He can be played faster than previously thought. The thing about this is that not every character has IASA frames during landing lag (such as Samus), so this is probably something that Sakurai put in to balance the game (ZOMG!!). So yes, I believe that Ike still has competitive potential; it could be the tip of the iceberg in terms of Ike's developing metagame.

Video proof = http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wdjuWxzdOz8

 

[VersatileBJN]

Im sorry Metroid I dont get it?

I thought this was kinda common knowledge, but maybe im missing something. I know that Ike can interrupt natural fair recovery and block/attack. Same with bair.

Is there more to this?

 

[VersatileBJN]

See, this is the issue I see. "Play Smart" is a universal tactic that is involved with every character. You can play smart and get hits, but can that last long enough? Every quirk a character has give them another option. The more options you have, the deeper and more complex your mindgames are. The more complex your mindgames are, the more likely you are to score those game winning hits.

Ike doesn't do this well. His game is very straightforward, and I think in time, it'll be too straightforward to compete with characters would have TONS of options available to them. He'll either be predicted too well, or won't be able to answer all the crap thrown at him by the deep characters.
However, I could still be proven wrong. I'll admit that. I just don't see the same "growth" or "potential" that characters like Link and Ness had in Melee.

I guess. Depth doesn't really matter imo. It's what the char has and if it's good enough.

Ike has some pretty good tools in jab, nair and fair. These are by far his best and most important moves, and they all can be used in a multitude of ways. Everything you do is based off of these moves being used to space, punish, and set up other moves.

What depth are you talking about really? The only char I see who has a lot of "growth" and such is Snake. Every character has a move and it has a purpose. How is Ike different exactly? It's probably because WE use him.

Look at Marth. His game is no more complex and his move set no more intricate than Ikes...if anything there is more to Ike and how his moves can be used. Marth just has better moves overall. That's it pretty much.

I repeat, its not about the depth..its what you can do with what you have.


Hate to bring up another fighting game, but in Tekken 4, Jin was so good most of the roster could not touch him. Jin was also incredibly easy to use, shallow and had no real depth. A character like Yoshimitsu or Hwoarang had way more to their game and a CRAP LOAD of depth. However, the moves and tricks they had simply failed to the simplicity, yet perfection that was Jin.

Now Ike isn't Jin we all know that, but from my experience thus far he has tools that are good enough to compete. He has to work harder against characters who are better than him, but he can win.

From my experiences thus far, Falco is the only match up where it's so severe I'd consider switching to someone else. That match up is just ugly. I'm working on it, though.

 

[mikeb2010]

What scares me is that Ike hasn't had any decent metagame development in weeks. Seriously, what POSITIVE and USEFUL things have we learned to make Ike competitive? Almost every character I read about is finding new thing quite regularly, even if they are simple. Ike doesn't even have these. Ike's not getting any better while the rest of the cast is still growing. Its because of this that I have my doubts about Ike as a whole.

Generally I aim this topic at the more competitive players. How are you fairing with your Ike at tournaments? Are you finding that your game is still improving BEYOND basic things like spacing and dodging (Which are universal traits and don't count)?

Me personally, i think that Ike is a great character. There is a lot i have been working on with him. In particular, i believe that the next breakthrough with Ike is going include paler tricks with the B-Stick setup and a more in-depth jab cancel game. In general, Ike can use the wavebounce in B-Sticking to better manipulate the distance covered by his quick draw attack, eruption, and counter. I have been trying to perfect this style for awhile, and it seems to be working pretty good. Also, as far as the jab cancel game goes, i find that the string A,A, (cancel), counter, Dsmash is pretty effective. Although it is not a new attack, it is a good strategy because Ike's counter last for a long time and Dsmash is a quick smash attack that can be used to shield poke and has good KO potential. Another thing, I found that when running if u B-Stick in the opposite direction, it sets up a Bair much better than the traditional RAR to Bair and u cab use this to set up a possible Uair, Be it that Ike twirls the sword around about three times.

 

[XSilvenX]

You guys are thinking on the ball but you kind of have the misconception that being a stronger character means having more options. Yes more options leads to more VERSATILE-ity (see what I did there Versa ^_~?) but that doesn't mean the character doesn't stand a chance in tournament. Look at Marth...he's as basic as ever...everyone knows what's going to happen but they still get hit...sure, say it's because he's fast but no, not really. We all know Ike can win ...it's certainly not impossible...theres no doubt about that but the real discussion is, are we gonna get better with him, are we gonna develop beastly tactics with him that are vastly different from how we play today..? In my opinion..most likely no. The tried and true gameplay of Ike can't be changed that much.

There is some "mystery" with some of Ike's moves though and this is what smart players in the future will take advantage of. Two moves that come to mind is Nair and Upair..sure people use NAIR and they think they know how to use it but in reality..they're limiting themselves. People say use NAIR as a combo start..of course that's OBVIOUS and it works..for dam sure it does. Why don't people use NAIR for anything else though?!.

I've been doing a lot (and I mean A LOT!) of experimenting lately with Ike and theres so many different ways to use this one move(NAIR). The same for UAIR, the obvious way is to use it with someone falling on top of you or to poke someone through a platform..even if you know it's not gonna hit them, if they shield it they may still "tumble" off the platform which sets up for a f-tilt. Ask Versa about how I sometimes use random fastfall UAIRS while he is UNDER me..it sounds so stupid but the funny thing is, people have the tendency to try to hit Ike from the side after they send him up since they know to never approach him from the bottom since DAIR usually *****. What usually ends up happening is (if the opponent isn't paying attention) they jump right into the upair because you're fastfalling. It's a little different in Ike dittos but vs other characters it's quite amazing.

 

[xYz]

Ike has alot of bad matchups. IMO

The farthest I place going all ike was 3rd, and that was about a month after the game came out. so Everyoen can call newbie johnz on that. I dont think an Ike has won a big tournament in the states as of late.

Ike is II fun tho.

 

[Optimus124]

Ike's been my main since Brawl game out. In one tourney and got up to second to last tier (Had a bad day in Mute City). Ike's limited move set has practicality written all over it. You just have to be creative. Now I am playing my brother who is a Toon Link/ Zero Samus fanatic. Knowing the distance of the quick draw, SA framework, and tilt move provide more flexibility than most think and patience is more often my key to victory. It takes some skill to use Ike in a deadly fashion

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Look at Marth. His game is no more complex and his move set no more intricate than Ikes...if anything there is more to Ike and how his moves can be used. Marth just has better moves overall. That's it pretty much.

I can't agree with this statement what-so-ever. Marth has very odd properties with his moves that allow him to use them in very odd and unique ways. Because of the odd properties, Marth isn't just a "I gotta hit you" character like Ike is. Examples include;

- Just last night I was able to create a edgestall that give you 90% invulnerability time and only takes 30ish frames to execute. This is only possible because of the properties of Dolphin Slash.
- All of Marth's moves can be "tipped" for extra damage or knockback or be hit regularly to give more comboing potential. This allows you infinitately more spacing options compared to Ike.
- His grab range combined with the length of his throws gives him the ability to chain grab a few characters. He has the ability to follow up a lot of his grabs with attacks.

He has much more to him than just a better moveset. Its the weird properties of his attacks that make him such a good character. His options are just that much greater. Heck, his mindgaming potential is amazing if you incorporate his entire moveset (which is possible, considering all his moves are useful... except Dair). Most Marth players just don't do this.

Hate to bring up another fighting game, but in Tekken 4, Jin was so good most of the roster could not touch him. Jin was also incredibly easy to use, shallow and had no real depth. A character like Yoshimitsu or Hwoarang had way more to their game and a CRAP LOAD of depth. However, the moves and tricks they had simply failed to the simplicity, yet perfection that was Jin.

Now Ike isn't Jin we all know that, but from my experience thus far he has tools that are good enough to compete. He has to work harder against characters who are better than him, but he can win.

Again, Jin was awesome because his simple playstyle had an amazing moveset backing him up. He had strength, speed, and priority to make sure that those simple attacks prevailed. Ike has priority, range and power, but even then, most of his moveset is lackluster. The only moves you can use consistently are Nair, Bair, Fair and jabs. 4 of 26 moves are flexible enough to use in a variety of situations. The rest are situational. None of them are truly "broken" either.

Now, compare that to rest of the roster. How many character's have more than 4 flexible, general purpose moves? Most of them do. How many characters have a broken move that can be spammed? Quite a few. What does this tell us about Ike's potential in the future? Without the complexity of a variety and usable moveset, Ike is doomed to fail in the completive ring in the future, the way I see it.

That's why I try so hard to find more uses for his forward and up tilts, as well as his Up air. If we could incorperate merely 3-4 more moves into in a competitive moveset, I can see Ike being capable of taking tournament wins. Until then though, I will continue to have my doubts.

Don't worry though, I'm still as involved with improving Ike as I ever was. My guide is getting better, in fact, its in total overhaul right now.

 

[P-Wubbs]

It's people like you, Trebor, that are going to further Ike in his potential. People that are willing to take some bumps to learn a different way of playing him will be the ones pioneering things for him. Yes, he is limited. Yes, his move set is not as impressive as others. His raw power is what drew me to him to be my main, and it is what keeps my looking for more ways to play him.

I tend to watch a lot of videos of people playing Ike, and the one thing that I do like is how there are a few different styles. Each one of them has had different success depending on matchups and the players playing. While I cannot simply describe these styles, it is at least encouraging that there is more than one set way of playing him. To me, this says that styles could be meshed to form better styles. We have to be always be willing to be students of the game.

 

[VersatileBJN]

I think you're exaggerating to the max. There's nothing unique or deep about Marth regardless of whether he can kill with his tip.

Brawl is a straight forward game. There isn't much depth to it outside of playing defensive and smart. I also disagree about characters having more than 4 go to moves. When it all boils down to it, a lot of characters have 4 or 5 that are staple, and everything else is based around it.

Marth = nair, fair, sowrd dance and forward smash. Everything else is based around these moves.

Wolf = Down smash, forward smash, bair, laser and jab. Everything else is based around these moves.

D3 = forward tilt, waddle dee, down throw(probably less staple moves than Ike)

Characters who are better than Ike are just as simplistic a lot of the time. As I said earlier, there are characters who are far more indepth than Ike who are worse. Depth isn't the problem. It's the strength of the overall move set. Yoshi, Peach and Bowser all have more tricks and depth than Ike and are considered to be WORSE. Do you understand why you are really worried over nothing?

Ike's move set is above average but not as good as about 10 characters. That's about as straight forward and as simple as it can get. LIke I said before, besides Falco there is no one above Ike that he cannot beat with great play from MY EXPERIENCE, and I've played some very good players who use characters considered better than Ike.

 

[Ussi]

Ike in my opinion requires knowing your opponent. So to use Ike you MUST be good at reading your opponent and keeping up with him. If you don't you'll fall in his pace and be screwed. Ike is all about punishing and counterattacking. Never be too predictable and please DON'T THROW MOVES OUT HOPING THEY'LL HIT. Make EVERY MOVE count.

I have hope with Ike in a competitive field, Uptilt is also a great move to shield from above.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I think you're exaggerating to the max. There's nothing unique or deep about Marth regardless of whether he can kill with his tip.

Brawl is a straight forward game. There isn't much depth to it outside of playing defensive and smart. I also disagree about characters having more than 4 go to moves. When it all boils down to it, a lot of characters have 4 or 5 that are staple, and everything else is based around it.

Marth = nair, fair, sowrd dance and forward smash. Everything else is based around these moves.

Wolf = Down smash, forward smash, bair, laser and jab. Everything else is based around these moves.

D3 = forward tilt, waddle dee, down throw(probably less staple moves than Ike)

Characters who are better than Ike are just as simplistic a lot of the time. As I said earlier, there are characters who are far more indepth than Ike who are worse. Depth isn't the problem. It's the strength of the overall move set. Yoshi, Peach and Bowser all have more tricks and depth than Ike and are considered to be WORSE. Do you understand why you are really worried over nothing?

Ike's move set is above average but not as good as about 10 characters. That's about as straight forward and as simple as it can get. LIke I said before, besides Falco there is no one above Ike that he cannot beat with great play from MY EXPERIENCE, and I've played some very good players who use characters considered better than Ike.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from now. You're seeing the same pattern arise from other characters as well. Now that I think about it myself, most of the tournament players I know uses the staple moves to develop the basic game of their character, the other moves are just more a reflection of their personal playstyle.

I suppose we can close this thread now. My faith in Ike has been restored. I've been having a lot of success with F-tilt poking and Jab Cancelled U-tilt, as well as new tactics out of shields. There is still hope for Ike. ^^

 

[VersatileBJN]

Yeah dude seriously ain't nothing to worry about. Vs better characters you need to work harder and your chances of winning are less, but it's doable. Ike is pretty solid.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You Ike mains sure do compare Ike to Marth alot.

Also everyone is simple in Brawl, but when looking at each character compared to the other you must see character depth in relative terms. So Marth compared to Ike is in fact, a much deeper character and actually one of the deeper characters in Brawl TBH.

Waltz into the Marth forum and read anyting with my name on it and you will see.

Also Ike's mian problem isn't his movelist.

It's his horrid match-ups.

Also I think Trebor made this thread because after seeing all the discoveries and stuff I posted about Marth he started worrying about Ike.

Hehe.

Just convert bro. It's ok. I mean....they are BOTH from Fire Emblem you know?

No shame in conversion.

LOL!

*Teleports back to my throne room in the Marth forum.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Play a good Ike you scrub.




















*This is just a joke don't cry*

 

[Emblem Lord]

A good Ike just means that the player is good, not Ike himself.

It's not a lie when I say that he has some ****ty match-ups.

As a character I like him, but overall his match-ups hold him back.

 

[VersatileBJN]

If you say so playa.

 

[FightCity]

Do I still have hope for Ike?

Yes, I do.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

You Ike mains sure do compare Ike to Marth alot.

Also everyone is simple in Brawl, but when looking at each character compared to the other you must see character depth in relative terms. So Marth compared to Ike is in fact, a much deeper character and actually one of the deeper characters in Brawl TBH.

Waltz into the Marth forum and read anyting with my name on it and you will see.

Also Ike's mian problem isn't his movelist.

It's his horrid match-ups.

Also I think Trebor made this thread because after seeing all the discoveries and stuff I posted about Marth he started worrying about Ike.

Hehe.

Just convert bro. It's ok. I mean....they are BOTH from Fire Emblem you know?

No shame in conversion.

LOL!

*Teleports back to my throne room in the Marth forum.

I lol'd at this. I assure you Emblem Lord, any doubts that I had about Ike were created by my own research. Likewise, my beliefs in Marth were caused MAINLY by my own research, though I do give props to you for the "push" you gave me to look into shieldbreaker. ^^

 

[Gray]

I honestly don't think there will ever be a reliable way for Ike to deal with campers. He's got limited apporach options and often times because his moves are so **** slow there is no chance you you getting an attack before they can shield unless they're just mindlessly mashing laser/whatever. What's worse is that every single predicted (well, by most people at least) top tiers are very good at camping (Particulary Toon link, Wolf, Olimar, etc.) except Marth and Metaknight who are still extremley diffucult matchups. And of course having the worst recovery in the game sucks. Being killed at like 20% by metaknight because he aerialed you a few times is now fun at all. So... I don't know. Maybe someone will find some crazy Ike technique that makes him more viable, but I doubt it.

 

[blade_master99]

Ike in my opinion requires knowing your opponent. So to use Ike you MUST be good at reading your opponent and keeping up with him. If you don't you'll fall in his pace and be screwed. Ike is all about punishing and counterattacking. Never be too predictable and please DON'T THROW MOVES OUT HOPING THEY'LL HIT. Make EVERY MOVE count.

I have hope with Ike in a competitive field, Uptilt is also a great move to shield from above.

way to go captain obvious...

 

[MajinSweet]

I was honestly thinking of making a topic just like this, you share my thoughts exactly. It almost seems like Ike's game is peaked, which is just plain horrible considering he already has some terribly bad match ups.

When it comes to actually using him, its so hard to be unpredictable and land hits against good players. This stems from the fact that he has so few safe options, you almost have no choice but to spam them. Like Nair or AAA. Almost every other move of his has either too much start up time or ending lag. He is forced to approach in the majority of his matches and to make matters worse, its very easy to lock down an approaching Ike. Anyone with a projectile can stop any Side B to AAA attempts, and if you go by the air--chances are your opponent now has the positional advantage.

To make matters worse, he is one of the easier characters to edge guard. Edgehogging the side B is amazingly simple. And if you go low and attempt an Up-B, many characters can simply drop down, hit you away for the stock. And for the worst part, something that just seems plain wrong. Ike can have trouble killing. Due to knock back negation, the Nair and AAA won't be able to kill (unless you die first) So your forced to try and land a bair. (I've heard people say Ike's bair is good but, I tend to disagree) Or catch someone off guard with a running up smash and other non-sense that just doesn't work against good people.

I'm starting to think that as the meta game develops and a tier list is eventually formed, Ike might end up being one of the worst characters.

Honestly ask yourself, what chance does a Ike player have against an equally skilled Snake player? Snake lives longer, recovers better. Has projectiles. Almost has just as good range (As messed up as that seems) Has a better grab game, better speed...and so on. Snake will clearly be one of the most common tournament players, so how would Ike's survive? They won't.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Nah Ike vs Snake isn't that bad.

Favors Snake for sure tho.

Like I said, Falco is the real beatch.

Trust.

 

[Brookman]

Brawl sucks .

 

[VersatileBJN]

but L doesn't!

 

[thx]

ike cant really do much against the top competitors anyway so like what does it matter have ike on the side and pick up someone else i love ike hes so cool but hes the ganon with a sword -_- ive already learned this you could win with him but you have a bigger chance winning with someone else

 

[VersatileBJN]

Then we'd all be snake players ^_^

 

[SuperRacoon]

Ike's general disadvantage is that he has so uber right at the start that we Ike players felt secure in our natural advatage that we never thought to look at his flaws. I will also point out that early in brawl, most opponents that I faced online were Ikes. It gave every other character, especially the seldom played falco a chance to really learn Ike's flow of moves and how best to counter it.

In due time as players leave Ike, those who still favor him will be able to develope a strong metagame. A well played Ike can seem as fast as Mario.

 

[Optimus124]

Ike's general disadvantage is that he has so uber right at the start that we Ike players felt secure in our natural advatage that we never thought to look at his flaws. I will also point out that early in brawl, most opponents that I faced online were Ikes. It gave every other character, especially the seldom played falco a chance to really learn Ike's flow of moves and how best to counter it.

In due time as players leave Ike, those who still favor him will be able to develope a strong metagame. A well played Ike can seem as fast as Mario.

I agree. The tool is only as good as the person whose using it. Ike just takes a greater mind to overshadow his flaws. Personally I have somewhat of a time with projectile players who spam. At one time, I played against a Wolf player who would shoot, and then attempt to C-stick me to death. Once I caught on to his game, I noticed that my requests to join brawls were no longer accepted. I just try to stay within close range of my opponent, where they can get full off a Ragnell Sandwich

 

[ike_love]

Wait, so what exactly does metagame mean?!

 

[Lord Aether]

look it up yourself... you're asking a SIMPLE question on the INTERNET for God's sake

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

look it up yourself... you're asking a SIMPLE question on the INTERNET for God's sake

couldn't you have answered the question instead of coming up with that very clever reply?

Wait, so what exactly does metagame mean?!

well i actually did what he said and this is what it means apparently but i actually don't know i just nod my head and pretend like i know things when people talk about it


Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed rule set, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. In other words, sometimes using out-of-game information to affect one's in-game decisions.