Do you think the tier list ruins Smash?

[Morashi]

Something that people don't really take into account about the tier list is that the tier list is just assuming that all of the players using the character have equal skill. Like two CPUs going at it, or something I guess. So I can see where the people who say that the list doesn't matter are coming from. You never really see two people with the exact same skill at the exact same time, because of things like human error and etc. The tier list is just a very generic representation of what each character can be capable of. So what they're saying is that someone who has completely mastered a character like, Mario, could beat someone who is just average or advanced with someone like, say, Snake.

 

[MarKO X]

I don't use tier lists to say, "I don't have a chance of winning." Nope. I use a tier lists to see what the opponent may or may not be able to do. For example, if I pick a mid-to-low tier character and my opponent picks a character, the character's position on the tier list gives me numerous info right off the bat, but it's better to know what the character has the ability to do rather than a tier position. Like, in Melee, Link was always a threat to me... he had some interesting combos, some lead to death if you didn't DI properly and got caught in his upB slash... and he was what, low-tier? Yoshi's also another character I take seriously. As much as I hate him, can't stand using him, love the fact that he's never higher than low tier, etc., the chances are that if someone is dedicated enough to use him, their skilled enough to win with him.

So tier lists.... all they do is generalize information... that doesn't mean a bottom tier character isn't a threat.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think it does. My reason for it cause many people look at the tier list and worship it. Others may base thier skills on it.

Like If someone is a Bowser Fan. And wants to play with him in tournaments. He really Can't cause there are lots of characters in this game that get him good. And the tiers list also show it. So that person has to now pick other characters to cover up Bowsers matches. And lots of people play with characters that or top or high tier. So bowser is screwed. I'll just say low/bottom tiers are screwed.

They wanna play to win, But can't do it with thier all time favorite character in smash. Also the tier list leads to many things like fights. if one picks a low/bottom at a tournament or plays him, people are making jokes or insulting the player. "what a low bottom tier, dude you suck, you really think your gonna beat me like that?" And if that person beats the loser he will be like" *insert john here* thats why I lost no way I was suppose to lose to a low/bottom tier like that"

I have pissed off many people like that cause I use Peach and beat thier snakes, Meta DDD and Marths. They Think Peach is trash and cant do anything. They look on her nerfs ONLY and not what her good things are and how that can help her win despite her nerfs. And then I hear "Man you spammed Dairs, thats why I lost, you turnip spammed me, Peach sucks, that's why I lost." When the truth is, I'm better or you just plan suck balls. Even people who are better than me I beat and gone even with and I still get it. Why? Cause I'm what people say a low tier player (Peach)

It leads to many things and how people think and play/plan to win. And takes the enjoyment of a competitive game. Its always about the big dog, big names, and if you don't play a high/top tier, you auti suck. You mean nothing. But if you beat them, I assure you 90% of the time its a john that will come out thier mouths. But ether way its better for me, cause it makes them look stupid for thinking the way they do. And I get a laugh out of it everytime.

 

[MarKO X]

Waaaaay off topic... but I had no idea that the infamous dark peach lives in Brooklyn.

 

[Lavos]

I think it does. My reason for it cause many people look at the tier list and worship it. Others may base thier skills on it.

Like If someone is a Bowser Fan. And wants to play with him in tournaments. He really Can't cause there are lots of characters in this game that get him good. And the tiers list also show it. So that person has to now pick other characters to cover up Bowsers matches. And lots of people play with characters that or top or high tier. So bowser is screwed. I'll just say low/bottom tiers are screwed.

...oooooook. Bowser isn't bad because there's a tier list. Bowser's bad because he's bad...

The tier list has NOTHING to do with this topic...

They wanna play to win, But can't do it with thier all time favorite character in smash. Also the tier list leads to many things like fights. if one picks a low/bottom at a tournament or plays him, people are making jokes or insulting the player. "what a low bottom tier, dude you suck, you really think your gonna beat me like that?" And if that person beats the loser he will be like" *insert john here* thats why I lost no way I was suppose to lose to a low/bottom tier like that"

I have pissed off many people like that cause I use Peach and beat thier snakes, Meta dDD and Marths. They Think Peach is trash and cant do anything. They look on her nerfs ONLY and not what her good things are and how that can help her win despite her nerfs. And then I hear "Man you spammed Dairs, thats why I lost, you turnip spammed me, Peach sucks, that's why I lost." When the truth is, I'm better or you just plan suck balls. Evebn people who are better than me I beat and gone even with and I still get it. Why? Cause I'm what people say a low tier player (Peach)

It leads to many things and how people think and play/plan to win. And takes the enjoyment of a competitive game. Its always about the big dog, big names, and if you don't play a high/top tier, you auti suck. You mean nothing. But if you beat them, I assure you (0% of the time its a john that will come out thier mouths. But ether way its better for me, cause it makes them look stupid for thinking the way they do. And I get a laugh out of it everytime.

...So the tier list is bad, because some people are jerks? I don't think I get it. Those people would be jerks anyways if the tier list wasn't there. They would pick certain characters who they thought were bad and mock them anyways. Stop being so dramatic. It sounds like you're just being way too sensitive to people's johns. People don't become stupid from seeing a tier list, it just gives them some accuracy in their predetermined stupidity.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Waaaaay off topic... but I had no idea that the infamous dark peach lives in Brooklyn.

If memory serves me right, Infamous is a bad thing correct?

And if so, you can call me all you want. I'm not gonna have a fight in here.

...oooooook. Bowser isn't bad because there's a tier list. Bowser's bad because he's bad...

The tier list has NOTHING to do with this topic...



...So the tier list is bad, because some people are jerks? I don't think I get it. Those people would be jerks anyways if the tier list wasn't there. They would pick certain characters who they thought were bad and mock them anyways. Stop being so dramatic. It sounds like you're just being way too sensitive to people's johns. People don't become stupid from seeing a tier list, it just gives them some accuracy in their predetermined stupidity.

Bowser was such and example. Cool it.

And the tier list makes people jerks. And if they were already jerks, it makes them more of an asshat. Lost worship the list and let the meaning of competition and all rely on the tier list.

 

[PK-ow!]

I think it does.

. . .

Dude, just thank whatever Gods you pray to that the SBR makes a point of publicizing that stuff.

So tier lists.... all they do is generalize information... that doesn't mean a bottom tier character isn't a threat.

Except for Sheik, lolz.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Would you rather go into a tournament not knowing how badly you will get beaten?
Would you rather live on with the fallacy in your head that you can beat anyone with Mario?
Would you rather not have a good idea of what you'll have to look out for in tournies, and therefore not practice against those good characters?
Trust me, upon learning the ins and outs of a character you'll find that some have more advantages to their play styles than others. The best thing to do is, instead of whining about how low they are, prove to the community how much better you think they could be.

tl;dr: Some characters are better than others. Deal with it.

Edit: @ Dark.Pch: Infamous isn't an insult. It's a lot like saying "famous", which makes no sense.

 

[Zankoku]

A tier list is a tool for seeing which characters have proven their worth by being successful in tournaments. What other people choose to make of it is up to them.

A tier list alone will not ruin anything.

Except for Sheik, lolz.

Sheik is far better than several other characters in Brawl. If you want an example of "not a threat" you look toward Captain Falcon.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Edit: @ Dark.Pch: Infamous isn't an insult. It's a lot like saying "famous", which makes no sense.

Then the dictionary needs to fix the meaning of that word.

 

[nuro]

A tier list can't ruin a game. It's an impossibility. It merely reflects the position of a characters potential, his results in tourneys and the quality of his match ups. The tier list itswelf has no consequences on the game itself. However, matchups can ruin a game if they're not fairly balanced

Lol, smash is still extremely fun and I'm going to continue to play it but all I am saying is that I dont like whenever someone is surprised a lowtier wins and its sideeffects. Smash is still fun tho of course.

I think discussions about the tier list ruins smash. Just look at the tier thread, it's an incessant river of trolling, *****ing, arguing, and stupidity.

Yea your probably right lol. I like how when I went in that thread and to a random page I found people posting tier lists that didnt even have MK or Snake at the top.

By your logic, Tekken is ruined. Street Fighter is ruined. Even Pokemon is ruined.

Maybe a little. The games are still fun.

Btw no one listens to the tekken tier list even tho it does exist (at least not as many as smash do). And I saw a level 1 rattata kill a level 100 arceus. Besides Pokemon does something very smart. They just call pokemon "Overused" "Underused" etc. They don't say top, mid tier etc which makes characters sound like they are just better than others and not just overused.

Low tiers are low tiers because they lack the advantages and positive matchups that high tiers possess. The lack of tiers wouldn't stop this whatsoever. Captain Falcon will still suck. Mario will still be mediocre. Marth will still be good. Snake will still be ridiculous.

So why aren't ICs ridiculous?

The ICs aren't top tier because that infinite requires such situational positions, that it's not going to be reliable often enough to win tournaments with. Unfortunately for the ICs, they don't have much else to back that up with.

Lol, its not very hard to grab with the iceclimbers. XD It's not like your opponnent can keep you split up before you can get a grab the entire stock. I bet if you had the best MK user in the world fight a mediocre ICs player that could do the inf perfectly the ICs would win hands down. It's just the timing that is hard for people. If it was easier to do I bet we would see a lot more people go ICs in tournaments. Look at Chudat/Wobbles. Hardly anyone uses ICs to their potential but yet the few people who do place extremely well in tournaments. I know I'm comparing melee with brawl but in melee they had an infinite too.

The tier list IS made by the pro Smash players, lmao.

Only a few pros. Most of the pros don't have access to the SBR and most of them think the tier list is dumb. They could care less about it though. I've seen Ken say ICs are the best in the game, M2K say sheik was the best, Isai say tier list is dumb, KDJ say tiers are for queers etc. But to be honest I don't know the exact number of pros that have access. I checked lots of accounts and didn't see any BR access on most of them. But i dont even know if they do or dont have access I just dont see the grimer on any pros account so i'm assuming pros don't really have a say. I could be wrong though.

You only listed off ONE single person who was better with a character other than the best in the game. That means absolutely nothing.

M2K is well know to be the best player in melee. LOL. But even PC said he doesnt like going Fox when someone is marth since Marth has obvious advantages over everyone. And Ken used Marth and was winning every tournament with Marth. He did use fox as a secondary but only against a few characters. I think that Marth had easier match ups against more characters than Fox did but thats just me.

Again, you're only listing off ONE single person for your example. Why not list off multiple DK players that could rank high in MLG than just Bum?

Maybe because not a lot of people play as DK since they see him so low tier? I bet if I counted the friend I know who used DK and counted my friends who played Marth the Marth friends would exeed the DK by about 25 - 1

You also forget to take into account that tier lists are subject to change.

I didn't forget that. Doesn't mean it matters.

We all play this game for different reasons. Your reasons are just as valid as my own or anybody else's.

The tier list is only there to serve as a reference to those people it really applies to. Even then people will ignore it, and choose to willingly. Just because Snake and Meta are top tier, doesn't mean I'll main them. Believe me, I've tried, but their play styles just don't suit me at all, so I ignore it, but still intend on playing to win Brawl tourneys with my current mains.

In regards to your opening question. No, I don't believe it ruins smash, because I play in an environment that accepts its existance. Fighting games have always had single dominating characters (Bar Guilty Gear), and this is no exception.

I understand that we both have differing view points, and mine works just fine for me, as it does for many others. Good luck with your reason for playing.



Also, FYI, the tier lists are released by the Smash Back Room, which is made up by the world's most reputable and respected smashers. Not just moderators (Some of which don't even play smash competitively or actively participate in the smash side of SWF anymore).

Yeah, Smash is still great with or without tiers. And as said before I'm pretty sure tons of pros dont have access to the SBR but I don't know for certain.

If you meant if the existence of tiers was a bad thing, I'd see where you were coming from: ideally, a fighting game would have perfectly balanced characters. But that's never going to happen.

The various versions of lists that exist serve as references; for instance, Ankoku's ranking list (which is NOT a tier list!) tells how well characters have been doing at tournaments. Whoever prefers to play as the same characters that have been doing well there can, and whoever chooses NOT to play as a character BECAUSE they win too much, such as myself, can do that as well.

Information is power. A list is just a compilation of a bunch of information. You (yes, you, reading this right now) can use the lists you have to enhance your own gaming experience in whatever way you prefer. If you choose to use it in a way that you think "ruins the game," whose fault is that?

Smash is still great but i'm just saying the tier list doesn't make much sense. It leaves out a lot of factors like how often characters are played and causes dumb side effects. Smash is still fun tho.

All a tier list is, roughly, is a list of characters in order of best to worst. Wether the list eists or not, people will play either who they're good at, whoever the best is, or both. ANY fighting game (infact, any game where there are various stats for characters, like Mario Kart) will have things that are better than others. All tiers are is just someone writing it down.

Yea, but this doesn't mean that tier lists are right.

nope. For example, there isn't a tier list right now. That won't stop people from playing MK or Snake, because they're the BEST chars! People play the best chars no matter what so a tier list doesn't contribute a lot

If the tier list just says MK and Snake are the best that is a dumb tier list.

If the tier list ruins Smash, it's because Smash is already ruined. Smash hasn't been ruined to my knowledge, so the tier list can't ruin it.

Yeah, its still a fun game.

You should know that you have a heightened chance of losing to someone beacause they are using a character that has an advantageous matchup against your character. Higher ranked characters tend to have better matchups, however you have to realize that even the top tier has weaknesses. What's really important isn't the rank of your characters, but how they fare against the characters you're playing against.

Lol are you serious? Way to prove my point. Some people can't help but just get discouraged that they are facing a character that is considered better than theirs which can make them do worse than they would have if they didn't believe so.

No. If people get into a mindset that their not going to win because there using falcon and the opponent is using snake, then they should get a new attitude to smash?

Yeah. But its sometimes not so easy for some people. I know tons of falcon players that quit smash because of how bad falcon was.

 

[Zankoku]

Inflammable and flammable mean the same thing. Infamous and famous do not.

Both infamous and famous means you carry a reputation; however, famous means a good reputation while infamous means a bad one.

There's nothing wrong with the dictionary, though from what Kiwikomix said I have a feeling a lot of people don't have a complete grasp of the English language (though I don't blame them; English has weird rules sometimes).

 

[Grunt]

Famous for being bad IIRC.
EDIT:
Holy crap you guys are too fast.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I didn't think it meant a "bad reputation", just that it had certain connotations.
Webster says:
in·fa·mous - ɪnfəməs[in-fuh-muhs]
1. having an extremely bad reputation: an infamous city.
2. deserving of or causing an evil reputation; shamefully malign; detestable: an infamous deed.

So I guess I learned something today.

 

[Lavos]

Bowser was such and example. Cool it.

And the tier list makes people jerks. And if they were already jerks, it makes them more of an asshat. Lost worship the list and let the meaning of competition and all rely on the tier list.

Don't get mad at me because you used a bad example.

XD

Ok, you have fun in your imaginary world where all low tier users are mocked and looked down upon because of the tier list. It sucks that you have to play some jerks who like to john when they lose to you, but it doesn't mean the tier list is bad. It means you need to toughen up, or they need to grow up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Btw no one listens to the tekken tier list even tho it does exist (at least not as many as smash do). And I saw a level 1 rattatta beat kill a level 100 arceus.

Probably because whoever was using rattatta was using the endeavor trick and the arceus user was a moron.

Besides Pokemon does something very smart. They just call pokemon "Overused" "Underused" etc. They don't say top, mid tier etc which makes characters sound like they are just better than others and not just overused.

NO.
Christ you have no clue what you are talking about.
OU=popular AND very good
You wuill never beat a team of OU's with a NU team. EVER.

So why aren't ICs ridiculous?

Cause they aren't.

Lol, its not very hard to grab with the iceclimbers.

Tiny grab range+no wavedash=grabbing is hard.

XD It's not like your opponnent can keep you split up before you can get a grab the entire stock.

Its VERY easy to split them up. The IC user has to compensate ahead of time so that Nana doesn't shield to late and eat an Fsmash.
As soon as you separate them the IC user is going to have difficulty help Nana out.
Its just the same as melee.

I bet if you had the best MK user in the world fight a mediocre ICs player that could do the inf perfectly the ICs would win hands down.

no they wouldn't. MK would split them up very easily nullifying the CG compeltely.

It's just the timing that is hard for people. If it was easier to do I bet we would see a lot more people go ICs in tournaments. Look at Chudat/Wobbles. Hardly anyone uses ICs to their potential but yet the few people who do place extremely well in tournaments. I know I'm comparing melee with brawl but in melee they had an infinite too.

Yeah and how often did they win due to the infinite?
Hmm let me think.
Maybe 1 every 10,000?

stuff

No one cares if they think its dumb or not. It still exists.
In fact its THEIR results that help define the tier list.
The irony ya?

M2K is well know to be the best player in melee. LOL. But even PC said he doesnt like going Fox when someone is marth since Marth has obvious advantages over everyone. And Ken used Marth and was winning every tournament with Marth. He did use fox as a secondary but only against a few characters.

So what? If they have an advantage they have an advantage and if they don't they don't. That shouldn't stop people from using the characters, especially since those characters were far from being unbeatable considering low tier characters could face them and win.

I would be more concerned since in Brawl, low tier characters do not compare to the top/high tier characters.

Maybe because not a lot of people play as DK since they see him so low tier? I bet if I counted the friend I know who used DK and counter my friends who played Marth the Marth friends would exeed the DK by about 25 - 1

so?
Name the other DK users please.

I didn't forget that. Doesn't mean it matters.[/qute]
Marth was low tier during the beginning of melee and look at him now.
Dr Mario was high tier in melee and look where he went.
However Brawl looks rather stagnant with little chance.

Yeah, Smash is still great with or without tiers. And as said before I'm pretty sure tons of pros dont have access to the SBR but I don't know for certain.

Most don't probably since most of them don't go here. *shrug*
If they did maybe they would be in the SBR and may they wouldn't, it really doesn't change much.

Smash is still great but i'm just saying the tier list doesn't make much sense. It leaves out a lot of factors like how often characters are played and causes dumb side effects. Smash is still fun tho.

Wrong. It takes intoa ccount the many playstyles as ell as matchups and tourney results.
Tier lists take alot into account.

Yea, but this doesn't mean that tier lists are right.

Why wouldn't they be? Are you disputing that MK and Snake are not the best characters in Brawl?
Or that marth and Fox are not among the best in melee.
If a tier list is wrong then it means it will change.

If the tier list just says MK and Snake are the best that is a dumb tier list.

*facepalm*

Yeah, its still a fun game.

whoc ares about fun.
Its a subjective idea.

Lol are you serious? Way to prove my point. Some people can't help but just get discouraged that they are facing a character that is considered better than theirs which can make them do worse than they would have if they didn't believe so.

Somewhat true but that still won't change the fact that Sonic vs Luigi=Luigi's win because he counters Sonic hard.
Someone shouldn't be discouraged at a 6040 matchup since they still have a decent chance at wining. They should be discouraged once they hit the 65:35 since disadvantages hit that much hard.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Don't get mad at me because you used a bad example.

XD

Ok, you have fun in your imaginary world where all low tier users are mocked and looked down upon because of the tier list. It sucks that you have to play some jerks who like to john when they lose to you, but it doesn't mean the tier list is bad. It means you need to toughen up, or they need to grow up.

No one is getting mad here. And also its a fact, I'll 50% of smashers at least are like this. I'm not saying the tier list is bad. But it does make arrogant people. This is all based on my experience and what I see/hear ALOT. Now if you don't then good for you. Not everyone goes through the same experience now do they.

 

[Zankoku]

The tier list doesn't make arrogant people; arrogant people attempt to abuse the tier list.

 

[Lavos]

No one is getting mad here. And also its a fact, I'll 50% of smashers at least are like this. I'm not saying the tier list is bad. But it does make arrogant people. This is all based on my experience and what I see/hear ALOT. Now if you don't then good for you. Not everyone goes through the same experience now do they.

Once again, XD

Really? You have factual data that proves that 50% of smashers are jerks who make fun of low tier users? Stop being so dramatic! If the torment of people making fun of Peach is so bad, just play different people. Honestly, if you're just going to sit here and play the victim, there's nothing to debate.

 

[Azuro]

Maybe a little. The games are still fun.

Btw no one listens to the tekken tier list even tho it does exist (at least not as many as smash do). And I saw a level 1 rattatta beat kill a level 100 arceus. Besides Pokemon does something very smart. They just call pokemon "Overused" "Underused" etc. They don't say top, mid tier etc which makes characters sound like they are just better than others and not just overused.

You're not serious? Why do you think Bob in Tekken 6 is so annoying? Everyone is on his case, because why? He's a top tier.

So why aren't ICs ridiculous?

I don't know much about ICs, so I can't exactly answer that confidently, and would be foolish for me to try to do so.

Lol, its not very hard to grab with the iceclimbers. XD It's not like your opponnent can keep you split up before you can get a grab the entire stock. I bet if you had the best MK user in the world fight a mediocre ICs player that could do the inf perfectly the ICs would win hands down. It's just the timing that is hard for people. If it was easier to do I bet we would see a lot more people go ICs in tournaments. Look at Chudat/Wobbles. Hardly anyone uses ICs to their potential but yet the few people who do place extremely well in tournaments. I know I'm comparing melee with brawl but in melee they had an infinite too.

You're using only a couple people for your example. It doesn't matter if one or two people are that good. It takes the entire group of said character's users to prove a point about how good a character is.

Notice, it's also positioning on Nana that makes it hard. The AI for Nana isn't always overly cooperative for you.

Only a few pros. Most of the pros don't have access to the SBR and most of them think the tier list is dumb. They could care less about it though. I've seen Ken say ICs are the best in the game, M2K say sheik was the best, Isai say tier list is dumb, KDJ say tiers are for queers etc. But to be honest I don't know the exact number of pros that have access. I checked lots of accounts and didn't see any BR access on most of them. But i dont even know if they do or dont have access I just dont see the grimer on any pros account so i'm assuming pros don't really have a say. I could be wrong though.

Nonetheless, it is pros, along with people who have a great amount of knowledge and insight on the game. It's not just no-names, who don't know how to play the game.

M2K is well know to be the best player in melee. LOL. But even PC said he doesnt like going Fox when someone is marth since Marth has obvious advantages over everyone. And Ken used Marth and was winning every tournament with Marth. He did use fox as a secondary but only against a few characters.

Regardless, one person isn't going to make a world of difference.

Maybe because not a lot of people play as DK since they see him so low tier? I bet if I counted the friend I know who used DK and counter my friends who played Marth the Marth friends would exeed the DK by about 25 - 1

Does not matter. Name me more than just one DK player that placed well with him. You can name one of the best player to use a character all you want, but until you can show me that a fairly large group of players have taken DK and placed high in a lot of tournaments, then don't make claims about character potential, because the potential is shown through that character's standings after a fairly large amount of time.

I didn't forget that. Doesn't mean it matters.

Yes it does matter.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Once again, XD

Really? You have factual data that proves that 50% of smashers are jerks who make fun of low tier users? Stop being so dramatic! If the torment of people making fun of Peach is so bad, just play different people. Honestly, if you're just going to sit here and play the victim, there's nothing to debate.

Might I ask how he is playing victim?
I am a Sonic main and the majority of the people out there still go. OMG I never knew sonic cuold do that.
Sonic has no range or priority lol

He sucks i used him once and he was trash lol.

He's stating the truth.
If a Yoshi suggests that Yoshi is mid tier material not low tier. He gets ridiculed, mocked, and has tons of things thrown at him.

Meanwhile if someone were to use Marth and said, Marth is not top tier he's high tier, no one dares to say anything.

Thats just how it is no victim playing at all.

 

[DanGR]

The tier list doesn't ruin smash. What ruins the tier list is what ruins smash, and that would be MK.

 

[PK Hexagon]

Wait? ...Do people really think Peach is low tier? lol

 

[Corigames]

No

10fail

 

[nuro]

From now on I am talking to people via PMs.

 

[Lavos]

Sonic IS trash though! It makes you a good player because you can overcome his weaknesses!

Yoshi players just need to get over their tier placement and play the character anyways (Yoshi secondary in Melee speaking). The fact that you like Yoshi doesn't mean he should be higher, it means you should understand that you're going to have a tougher time in the upper levels of play. When someone goes "You're playing Yoshi, wtf he sucks" Just smile and say "I know".

Mr. (Ms.?) Dark Peach has been saying that all low tier players are insulted and mocked by everyone they play. If you play low tier you auto-suck! If you win, you'll get nothing but johns and insults, if you lose, you just get insults. 50% of all players have a predetermined prejudice against lower tier players.

He's making broad statements about the entire smash community that are not likely to be true and that make him out to be under constant ridicule for playing Peach. AKA playing the victim.

 

[nuro]

Once again, XD

Really? You have factual data that proves that 50% of smashers are jerks who make fun of low tier users? Stop being so dramatic! If the torment of people making fun of Peach is so bad, just play different people. Honestly, if you're just going to sit here and play the victim, there's nothing to debate.

Sonic IS trash though! It makes you a good player because you can overcome his weaknesses!

Yoshi players just need to get over their tier placement and play the character anyways (Yoshi secondary in Melee speaking). The fact that you like Yoshi doesn't mean he should be higher, it means you should understand that you're going to have a tougher time in the upper levels of play. When someone goes "You're playing Yoshi, wtf he sucks" Just smile and say "I know".

Mr. (Ms.?) Dark Peach has been saying that all low tier players are insulted and mocked by everyone they play. If you play low tier you auto-suck! If you win, you'll get nothing but johns and insults, if you lose, you just get insults. 50% of all players have a predetermined prejudice against lower tier players.

He's making broad statements about the entire smash community that are not likely to be true and that make him out to be under constant ridicule for playing Peach. AKA playing the victim.

He could be saying stuff from his own experiences. He never said stuff like the entire smash community. He only shared his own thoughts. Why are you saying he is making broad statements about the entire smash community? He could simply be saying that stuff like his examples could happen because of tier lists.

your just blowing what he said out of proportion.

 

[MarKO X]

going back on nonsense... the word infamous has lost its meaning... I meant no insult (Mr.) DarkPeach. All respect.

Back on topic, Sonic and Yoshi are classic examples of characters that are low tier, catch insult after insult, have plenty of misconceptions about them just because of a few stats, their playstyle, etc. And it goes both ways... some people will respect you for winning with a low tier character, while some will have a john for every stock that they lose. Of course, DP is coming from NY, where everybody talks **** about everything anyway... so while the whole 50% thing might not be true about the Smash community as a whole, having lived in NY for a long time... say, my whole life... I do know that people in NY love talking ****.

 

[gojira345]

Tier lists really help one understand why one character is winning so much. Ease of use helps, and mastering of that ease of use character just makes them ridiculously good.

I'm writing a FAQ on why the characters are balanced the way they are, and there has to be some reason they went a little overboard on Snake....

Off stage gimpability? Sheildbreaks? His own explosives blowing him up? Whatever it was at the time, they felt it was so bad they needed to make him powerful.

Same with characters like Sheik or CF or Yoshi.

There is something they can do that is so good they felt the need to nerf them in other areas to make they character fair, and maybe they went overboard....

 

[J4pu]

is this thread meant to justify your choice of having snake as a main? Because i think thats bs, you probly chose him for his success.

 

[popsofctown]

The tier list doesn't ruin smash. Tiers ruin smash.

Tier lists only measure a flaw. The flaw itself is bad, not the measurement of it. If you react badly to the flaw, get upset by the flaw, or john (johnning is bad, period), it's the flaw's creator's fault.

tl;dr version: Condemning tier lists is just shooting the messenger.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm sending this as a PM since all this is directed towards you. All of the stuff you said was just your opinions and its obvious you wont take into account another persons opinion. So instead of getting the thread in a flame war ill just do this via a PM.

COnsidering mostof your opinion is not true go ahead.
Make sure you PM this to everyone too since I much prefer showing how you are acting on the board rathr than you hiding it via PM.

Yeah, thats doing better than what smash is doing. All smash does is say characters are very good and don't mention how often they are played. And Pokemon is bad to compare with smash since pokemon can be technically worse than others because stats etc while smash characters aren't necessarily worse they are just different. (btw i bet my pikachu can beat your charizard... no i meant brawl )

Yes cause surely they don't take movesets into account at all or the items or possible EV sets.
They have alot more to contend with than Brawl and even then OU Pokemon are still better than BL, UU and NU.
Even if they didn't take popularity into account those pokemon would still be where they are, because it is a TIER list.

Are you serious? Wobbles should be the perfect example of how easy it is to win with just the infinite. It's extremely easy to get a grab with Nana next to you before anything can split you up. You make it sound like MK has a sound victory against the ICs when he really doesn't.

Considerinf he has an advantage against them MK doesn't have an issue splitting them up.
Considering in melee it was a fact that wobbling didn't win tournaments proves you are wrong.
Considering IC's don't win because of the CG proves you wrong again.
Now shut up about IC's

'm pretty sure pros know what they are talking about. After all, they have the most knowledge over the game.

Who cares its their knowledge being put to use to make a tier list.
If they don't believe in one thats their opinion because in any game where there are differences a tier list will exist.

Says you.

Syas anyone who has played melee and Brawl competitively.
Link in melee could face against Marth, Fox, Falco and still win a tournament.
Link cannot face an MK and win.
he cannot face G&W and win.
He has extreme issues with high tier characters.
how does that not show low tier characters are not as viable as they were in melee?
I would rant on other things but I fear you would not listen.

other dk users?

You named only one DK user that did well, name the others to prove your point.

get your info right.

Really? I maybe off slightly by tiers but Marth in the beginning of melee was NOT top tier.
Mario was high tier in the beginning of melee. Link was mid tier in the beginning of melee.

SO learn your smash history nub.

have you ever considered they don't come here because they realize how people over exaggerate the tier list?

Thats a possibility as well of course but it still makes little difference if they are here or not.

I'll tell you the secret to making a tier list. A) take the popular opinion. B) Take tournament results. That doesn't seem like it is taking a lot into account.

Key to making a tier list.
1.Tourney results
2.Matchups
3.Individual playstyles.
4.Strategies that character can perform.
etc etc.

Just because you dont know what goes into a tier list doesn't mean you should speak about it./
popular opinion doesn't mean much.
Plenty people think Sonic sucks *** and is deserving of low tier.
Doesn't mean its true.

I think that if an ICs player did the inf perfectly then it is easy to beat a snake/meta with them. Besides a tier list isn't just saying MK/Snake is top tier its saying Character A is better than B and its not even know if its correct.

Considerig in the tourney listings they are ****** everyone else in how wellt hey are doing I would say its points to them being top tier. Let alone the fact hat the matchups shows the IC are at a disadvantage against Snake and MK (or nuetral).
The infinite dossn't mean anything if they separate Nana, space, or use their brain.

Infinites haven't won tournaments and they still don't.

*facepalm* It was sarcasm.

*facepalm*
Work on your sarcasm then.

Lol are you serious? Thats the first time I ever heard that counter. Are you sure this isnt coming from your random bs?

Are you sure you don't live under a rock?
See? I can say stupid things too.

Luigi=hard counter to Sonic
MK=hard counter to Sonic

If I main someone, I am far more credible concerning my main than you.

Don't PM again.

As for the Sonic is trash statement.

Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated July 31, 2008)
S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede; Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Wario
B: Falco, ROB, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Olimar
C: Diddy Kong, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Fox, Wolf, Pit, Zero Suit Samus
D: Peach; Sonic, Pikachu, Lucas, Ness, Zelda, Toon Link, Ike, Jigglypuff, Samus, Bowser, Pokémon Trainer, Luigi
E: Sheik, Link; Mario, SheikZelda; Yoshi; Captain Falcon; Ganondorf

Sonic isn't trash, he's mid tier. So he is semitrash ^_^
And I mean low mid tier he will never move up any higher than that, of this I am sure.

 

[Violent-nin]

Does the tier list ruin Smash, no.

I'm more or less the opposite of most players, in the sense that while majority of people go after the characters that are most-used and frequently do well in tournaments, I go after the characters that are hardly ever used and generally don't do well in tournaments.

Like other people did in Melee, I go after the low tier characters on purpose because IMO it makes things more interesting. This is also why I decided to practice with CF since he has been labeled low tier and garbage, and this has caused a lot of people to abandon him since Melee.

 

[5ive]

No it doesn't.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Might I ask how he is playing victim?
I am a Sonic main and the majority of the people out there still go. OMG I never knew sonic cuold do that.
Sonic has no range or priority lol

He sucks i used him once and he was trash lol.

He's stating the truth.
If a Yoshi suggests that Yoshi is mid tier material not low tier. He gets ridiculed, mocked, and has tons of things thrown at him.

Meanwhile if someone were to use Marth and said, Marth is not top tier he's high tier, no one dares to say anything.

Thats just how it is no victim playing at all.

You see, I had a completely different experience at FAST1. There was the OMG I never knew Sonic could do that. And of course they asked how I got around Sonic's "lack of range and priority," but they actually listened to the whole explination. They weren't mocking me, it was an honest question and they were eager to hear the answer.

And when I fought Pride in pools, everyone was watching in awe at a Sonic vs Yoshi match being played...seriously. We got complements from everyone that we played, and not one person ever even suggested that I should switch characters. And my crewmates where really excited when they saw that Yoshi could grab release combo Metaknight, or that he could just grab him out of the tornado for that matter.

So from my experience, one would assume that people are generally nice, and actually support you playing low tier characters...well. I mean, if you're bad then they blame it on the character, and might suggest you change. But if you're good, they're just plain impressed.


Do you see why personal experience doesn't mean anything?

Though, I pretty much support the rest of your arguement.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Typically it isn't bad, but there are people who even when they se the vids still go on to say WOMG sonic sux against everyone.

Or they hark on things that are rather old and outdated.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yeah, but comments on vids can be pretty ********. There are still people who complain about my gamer tag on my melee vids. They say "hey, that isn't Dark Sonic, that's Marth!"

Youtube can be hilarious.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I love when people who have no idea what the tier list represents, and how it's created make threads like this. It's laughable really.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well I don't mean youtube i mean smashboards and other places.You post a video of Sonic beating Falco and they still think Sonic sucks or they use the excuse that Falco sucks. Event hough that Falco is good

 

[Falconv1.0]

Well I don't mean youtube i mean smashboards and other places.You post a video of Sonic beating Falco and they still think Sonic sucks or they use the excuse that Falco sucks.

Well, look at it like this. If a Ganon player beats an MK player, we have to assume the MK player is worse since everything is in his favor there. It's not really ignorant unless these are like top level guys playing. (I mean M2K two stocked people using MK with DDD for God sakes, and most of them don't necessarily suck.)