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does fighting bad players make you worse?

chaosscizzors

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
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Michigan
i appologize in advance if this has been asked before, but i've been thinking lately.

i've been playing allot of new players lately trying to improve and get more experince playing people, but i still rarely loose a match because all these opponets are not very good at all. am i just going to get worse by 4 stocking bad players as long as i still fight good players?
 

CHOMPY

Sinbad: King of Sindria
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Funny you should say that, I played against someone over on wifi and was able to beat the pants off of them. But when I played against a noobie in person who barely plays, sure I beat that player but then the next day. I couldnt beat the one kid over on wifi or I could barley beat them. Your almost better off playing a character that you rarely use against a noobie so you wouldnt be so cautious on your timing. Alot of times, playing against noobs can screw up your timing badly and it causes you to play like crap. Basically just keep playing better players with your best character and use characters that you dont use as much against noobs.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,136
It depends if you're lazy or not.

If you're still practicing your spacing and just demolishing them, or at the least identifying when you *could* have done something to limit their options, you shouldn't get worse. Probably won't get better, but shouldn't get much worse either.

If you get lazy and just use the obvious moves that work best but only work because you're playing against bad players, then you'll learn bad habits and get worse.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
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If you keep on using a high/top tier character to destroy bad players, I could see it making you worse as you will become accostomed to not getting punished and just overuse certain moves that bad people wont punish (marth fsmash comes to mind).
 

goodkid

Smash Lord
Joined
May 28, 2007
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No, just as long as you know in the back of your mind that if something works on this noob that usually doesnt, you can keep using it, but when it comes time to face a good opponent, you know what works/doesnt
 

chaosscizzors

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
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it almost sounds like we're talking about computers here. xD

usually i just out-space and punish n00bs and i don't really try to play, i just watch them and then hurt them when they screw up. but once i go against a good player it's like i throw it into overdrive, doing everything i can think to do at all times and usually come out one stock behind every time.
 

Tristan_win

Not dead.
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The only three things playing players that are worst then you are...

1. Perfecting proven techniques and strategies on them
2. Making you feel better that you are better then someone by crushing them. The better the player the better you feel for winning with such ease.
3. Testing out moves used in different scenarios and seeing how effect they might be.
 

Kinzer

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I could've sworn there was another thread somewheere around here like this...

...Oh well, to answer your question, yes and no.

Yes, you will form bad habits that playing with better people would not like you get away with.

No, because if the player who is worse is learning and catches on to you, they get better, and then you have to adjust to them to gain the victory, play a couple of more matches and rinse and repeat.
 

Natch

Smash Ace
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An excerpt from Sirlin's book on "Playing to Win."

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/

Read it if you found this helpful.

Sirlin in his really really good book said:
When you do play against experts, they will probably beat you badly. Playing them will teach you what not to do. Do this, and they punish you horribly. Do that, and the game is lost. Playing them will teach you which moves are “unsafe” or “terrible,” and you must learn to make fewer and fewer of these moves that will lose you the game. Of course, if all you do is remove moves from your repertoire, you are playing a safer game that is less likely to be lost at any moment, but you also must make moves to win! You should be making good progress on not losing so quickly when you play these experts, but how can you learn to win? Watch what the experts do to you. They are likely extremely efficient at stealing a game. When you make a mistake, watch exactly how they punish you. Watch exactly which sequence they use to end the game.

Again, some of my friends swear by only playing against experts, and there is surely much to be learned from that. But once you have learned how the experts win, it can be very difficult to practice those maneuvers against them. The opportunity to exercise your winning muscles will show itself only rarely. It is at this point that I prefer to play against weaker players. The weaker players will present plenty of opportunities for you to practice your endgame skills. You can try variations on your attack patterns all day on them. You can hone your skills at ending a game. Often, attacking patterns will leave you vulnerable, so practice until your attack sequences leave no gaps of vulnerability. You won’t truly know if you’ve accomplished this until you play against the experts later, though.

The idea is to use the beginners as a way to get an extraordinary amount of practice in the tactics that win the game in a short amount of time. The experts rarely allow such situations to arise, but when they do, you will need to capitalize on them professionally. When the opponent makes a fatal mistake, you need to be able to confidently take control of the game and win it. This act must be natural, something you’ve done a thousand times before. When the rare opportunity to win presents itself while playing the expert, you shouldn’t have to think “I’m pretty sure I can win this in theory. The textbooks say I should do X.” You should take control of the game simply, quickly, and instinctively, just as you have done countless times against the beginners.

The experts keep you honest. They remind you, “That was not a safe move. You cannot trick me with that. That will not stop my advances.” The expert also teaches you how to win, but presents only very few opportunities to practice winning. The beginner, on the other hand, will let you practice winning until it’s second nature. At that time, you must return to the experts.

There will soon come a time when beginners and even intermediate players are of very little use to you. They do not know how to punish your mistakes properly, so you can develop bad habits. They fall for tricks that are not “real,” meaning that experts would never fall from them. And perhaps worst of all, they often defeat themselves. If you play safely for long enough against beginners or intermediates, they are likely to eventually make a mistake that gives you the win. It might teach you that long, drawn-out conservative play is the road to victory. But what will you do when the expert never hands you the game? What if the opponent is good enough that you must actively beat him rather than wait for him to beat himself? This is why you must focus all of your attention on playing experts when you are ready.
 

Kinzer

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I could've sworn there was another thread somewheere around here like this...

...Oh well, to answer your question, yes and no.

Yes, you will form bad habits that playing with better people would not like you get away with.

No, because if the player who is worse is learning and catches on to you, they get better, and then you have to adjust to them to gain the victory, play a couple of more matches and rinse and repeat.
Reference.

Only if you do it a lot and allow it to let you pick up bad habits.
Hmm... but I thought I was saying that the two options would happen with playing a bad/good scrub... so yeah I guess the first one works only if you play for an excessive amount of time with the bad kind... but who is to say we don't have a good newb on our hands who tries to get better as the matches progress on?

But I digress, even if the good scrub might be trying, doesn't mean he actually WILL pick up on those habits if he/she isn't paying attention.

Player dependent I suppose.
 

.Marik

is a social misfit
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You won't get better, but then again, you shouldn't get worse.

But, I **** everyone I play all the time. Probably because they all suck, but it's just as good as facing computers.

If you're used to playing ****ty opponents, then you're going to get used to that format of play, and underestimate good players, who will then **** you.

Don't pick up on the bad habits, and you should be fine.
 

chaosscizzors

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
211
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Michigan
well what if i'm practicing the things that the pros are telling me to do? like, i had my marth critiqued and someone said "do more ____, do less ____, ect." so what if i'm just foucusing on learning these things and then once i get better with that, attempt them on an expert.

because that's pretty much what i've been doing, but i haven't had many opprotunties to play good opponets.

from what i gathered from sirlin's words, that's what i should be doing, right?
 

E.G.G.M.A.N.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
301
If you're consciously aware of what you're doing and why you're doing it, fighting a bad player should not have any effect on your skill level. If you fight only bad players, and then try to apply things that worked on them to other players, you will become worse.
 

SinkingHigher

Smash Lord
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Imo, it can POTENTIALLY most definitely make you worse.

Stupid players (noobs) don't block or grab or combo or kill well or do anything challenging in the slightest. You can easily win a match by spamming projectiles or whatever other spammables you have.Basically this leads you to stop trying so hard and rely on simple "mindgames" (and I stress the airquotes) while you stand still as they run into your F-smash.

Eventually this rubs off on your gameplay and you have to teach yourself the basics again. You'll realize this once you play experienced players who can now get passed all over your tricks and failed attempts at sweetspots while you get gimped and spiked straight to hell. (Yes, I speak from experience.)

This is not to say you should shun any player who is beneath you. They will learn from you as you would learn from experienced players, but I don't recommend playing the same character for too long so as not to get too comfortable.
 

Geist

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If you play people who are inexperienced, you can develop some really bad habits that you won't even notice until you play an experienced player. This will definetly make you worse off, but it won't subtract from your overall experience.
This is kind of like the philosophy of playing to suit the situation. If you know a certain action will win you a match, but it isn't necessarily a useful action, you should still exploit it to get the win.

In my experience, you need 3 kind of people to get good quickly:
1 - The inexperienced player: You need to know your limits, and there isn't a better way of knowing them than experimenting. Pull off some crazy, impossible stuff that would be completely outrageous in any serious match. This helps you stay creative and spontanious if the occasion arrises to be so in a real match. Playing with someone inexperienced too much can really throw you off game though.
2 - Someone who is even grounds with you: This is the best way to figure out what is working, and what isn't. If you and your opponent are at even grounds, it allows you to build up your technique more precisely and still allow for flexible playstyles. It's also the easiest way to tell whether you have been improving or not, and can serve as a good inspiration if they seem to be gaining skill in the game faster than you are.
3 - Someone that completely, utterly ***** you: This is the fastest way to improvement in my opinion. Someone with a large amount of skill will make you see things that you never saw before, like how to apply techniques, or how to punish certain actions at efficient times. Study the matches between you and the better player and you'll see your mistakes and find out how to stop bad habits.
 

NintendoMan07

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Dallas: The Land that Killed Me
So... what exactly do bad players (like me) do? Rot?

From the way I see it, ideally, good players will fight better players and ignore bad players, right? And if the best way to get better is to fight better players, and I'm a bad player, then am I or am I not effectively destroyed by the system since the better players will ignore me?

PLEASE tell me there's something missing from this equation, since this honestly sounds like the Smash apocalypse for me, coming from my point of view.
 

SinkingHigher

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So... what exactly do bad players (like me) do? Rot?

From the way I see it, ideally, good players will fight better players and ignore bad players, right? And if the best way to get better is to fight better players, and I'm a bad player, then am I or am I not effectively destroyed by the system since the better players will ignore me?

PLEASE tell me there's something missing from this equation, since this honestly sounds like the Smash apocalypse for me, coming from my point of view.
Sometimes noobs can teach you a thing or two. Lots of experienced players use fancy techs just to look good or use traps and mindgames often in theirs game, but noobs have a very simplistic playstyle which somehow overcomes these "techs". Noobs can give you a new perspective on things which is always an extremely important thing, even in life.

For example: Has anyone ever asked you a ridiculously simple question but you struggled with it because you thought the answer was more complicated than it really was? That's what this is about.

Playing noobs that spam and walk into all your traps will not get you anywhere. These are noobs that struggle with Lvl 3 CPUs and SD all the time. Playing beginners that are serious about the game will have bothered to learn the fundamentals of the game and their character. Essentially that is what Brawl revolves around: Fundamentals.

Simplicity is good, stupidity is not. Play beginners to ground yourself, contrary to what one of the former posts said.

Edit:

Again, I can't stress this any more, there is a fine line between a BEGINNER, and a bad player.
 

chaosscizzors

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my mistake, i was refering to beginers more than bad players, but i wanted information on both so i guess it all worked out in the end.
 

Sorgens

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
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34
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Houston
Yea playing bad payers would probably make you worse. All you end up doing is capitalizing on their bad mistakes, usually making you think you can do it to everyone.

Just don't be srs about it.
 

Spamzfair

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
30
Yes and No, My friend Plays against *Bad* players all the time he has no choise to in his area of living there arnt many players, and for a ness player he does really well, through fighting bad players and lvl3 computers he has taught himself the best he could. So i think if you practise with whoever you can only get better as long as you do what you would do in a match against a skilled person
 

Sigrid Fiinikkusu

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Gresham, OR
lol I never try spamming moves against bad players. I don't put my whole mind into the game but I give no quarter. Especially when it comes to edgehogging. :)
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
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Playing bad players teaches you to expect things to work on good people that wont.

If you keep using Falcon punch and it's working, that'll become a bad habit that will NEVER work against anyone whos been playing the game or is smart etc...

Playing people far better than you wont make you better either because you won't understand what to work on. Playing people around your level but slightly better is a good approach to improving.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
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Sep 22, 2008
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yes it does... fighting only players on equal or better skill or you will get worse... or stay on the same level... you wont get better ;)
 

Kraryo

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The only person that I can get to play Smash with me so far sucks at Brawl. He mains Mario, can't recover most of the time, and spams fire balls, cape, up b, and dsmash. It doesn't help that he used to main Pit.:ohwell:
 

MyCurse4Life

Smash Ace
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I guess it will mae you better because you still brawl and maybe you can learn new combo's with fighting with noobs. I know I did but I fougt a lot of newbz before it wasen't funny anymore.
 

SuperFudgeChoco

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well usually you'll get better if you face someone better or equal with you. So if you face him and he sucks, he should get better, then hopefully evening out with you making it so you get better. I know that's what happened with my brother and I.
 

MBreeto

Smash Ace
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Messages
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i think playing with bad players allows you to experiment with your moves, which can be a good thing. But i think constantly playing bad players will cause bad habits
 

MMZJSFMMX10MM

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I want to say it doesn't make you worse or better (maybe just slightly better), but I think it actually makes you better. It is easy to simply think that the easy battle doesn't really have any significance. Although, I have noticed that when I play someone significantly weaker than myself, I am allowed to slow down. This causes me to think out my strategies and attack combos more because I think of ways that I can mess with my opponent. Because I think of these strategies and use them, they then become second nature in an actual battle against someone of skill. and can be called upon rather quickly if needed. Although, playing against weak opponents all the time won't make someone great, I think it can help from time to time to slow oneself down and think things out.
 

streetracr77

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
488
i think playing with bad players allows you to experiment with your moves, which can be a good thing. But i think constantly playing bad players will cause bad habits
I agree.
Whenever I play with a "bad player", I have more opportunities to do things I wouldn't try on someone that is equal to or better than me.
 

sMexy-Blu

Smash Lord
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Oct 19, 2008
Messages
1,441
Lets put this simple, If your bad and you fight bad players you won't get any improvement, in fact you might get worse because you'll start spamming some moves that the bad player you fought falls into but the good player won't and he will punish you for it.
 

Slasherx

Smash Ace
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Jan 10, 2009
Messages
876
Playing against bad players, makes you go agressive on them.
Wich mean you'll drop your guard often.
Then you'll start to drop guards even more and more.
 

BanjoKazooiePro

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I've had experience with this, and I've asked myself the exact same question for a long time. The thing is, if you play someone who mains say, falcon. You know you're going to win, so why not play around with them? You start getting cocky and you play much more aggressive, as there's no point to not playing aggressive, as you know you're going to win. It can really screw you over if you start to play people at a more competitive level. You will go for combos that can't be pulled off and you'll get crucified. I would still space them out and play the match like you would a normal match. It's like fighting level 9 computers, it just makes you worse than you started. Try to avoid it....
 
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