~The Koopa King~
Smash Ace
i ask because even on the discord they don't really seem keen on talking about zelda the character(despite it being the zelda discord)and yet nobody has any ideas for changes that should be made
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You're either trolling or have legit never played Zelda at a higher level or offline at all. Absolutely none of this is true, otherwise all the top players would be playing her.The best way to buff Zelda is to forget about her. She promotes bad strategy and habits heavily. She is a bad player magnet and some. She doesn't teach movement. She doesn't teach neutral. She doesn't teach edge guarding. She doesn't teach disadvantage state escaping methods. In fact, her attacks do everything for the player, the player doesn't have to do much with her to play her. Spam neutral special to escape disadvantage, spam teleport to cover zoners, spam phantom and fire for edge guarding instead of actually getting good at it. To be honest, Zelda is the last type of character that should be buffed in this game. I'd be fine with her bad strategy teaching bad habit breading ways being bottom tier and all the Zelda mains moved to an actual character that requires learning the game engine and utilizing it.
None of the top players are playing her because of the things I just mentioned that you quoted but potentially didn't read carefully. Top players and high level offline play doesn't see Zelda because Zelda is a bad character that appeals to bad players. Her tools are designed in such a way that the people maining her don't actually learn any valuable fundamentals, especially when it comes to edge guarding and disadvantage state. Everything I said is 100% true, and your reply only emboldens what I said.You're either trolling or have legit never played Zelda at a higher level or offline at all. Absolutely none of this is true, otherwise all the top players would be playing her.
You just said that she does all the work for the player. That's like a top players ideal character. I did read your drivel, it still isn't true. Either she is a bad character or she does everything for the player you have to pick one. You still haven't explained WHY she is supposedly all those things either.None of the top players are playing her because of the things I just mentioned that you quoted but potentially didn't read carefully. Top players and high level offline play doesn't see Zelda because Zelda is a bad character that appeals to bad players. Her tools are designed in such a way that the people maining her don't actually learn any valuable fundamentals, especially when it comes to edge guarding and disadvantage state. Everything I said is 100% true, and your reply only emboldens what I said.
I FAR more agree with this than the foolish prospect of 'buffing' her bad habit teaching toolkits.Ultimately, I think Zelda should be re-designed to an extent. I can't comment on how, but Sakurai is Sakurai. If he can give Villager a moveset, he can re-design Zelda easily if he desires
SHE DOES do all the work for the player. Phantom covers ledge get up and jump while Zelda sits and waits for the roll. Easiest trap in the game with the least strict timing and least demanding inputs. Fire edge guards for her, so most zeldas suck at extending offstage because half the time they have the option to do so, they just toss a fire off stage. Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player, which is why the player playing her never gets good at fundamentals, and you can see it when they switch to a different character. They don't practice the fundamentals like most other mains because they don't have to use them as often as other mains do.You just said that she does all the work for the player. That's like a top players ideal character. I did read your drivel, it still isn't true. Either she is a bad character or she does everything for the player you have to pick one. You still haven't explained WHY she is supposedly all those things either.
...Which would then make her a good character that top players would want to play. Fundamentals are called that, because they are the foundation of fighting games and how you play them. If a character bypassed fundamentals that would mean they are so strong, that they basically break the game, like Feral Chaos spamming Via Dolorossa in Dissidia Duodecim. As in, they would be banned from tournament play.SHE DOES do all the work for the player. Phantom covers ledge get up and jump while Zelda sits and waits for the roll. Easiest trap in the game with the least strict timing and least demanding inputs. Fire edge guards for her, so most zeldas suck at extending offstage because half the time they have the option to do so, they just toss a fire off stage. Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player, which is why the player playing her never gets good at fundamentals, and you can see it when they switch to a different character. They don't practice the fundamentals like most other mains because they don't have to use them as often as other mains do.
Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move, doesn't mean I also think they are GOOD options. Just because they do the work for you doesn't make the option viable. It just makes it less demanding. Hence why I said 'bad habit teaching character'....Which would then make her a good character that top players would want to play. Fundamentals are called that, because they are the foundation of fighting games and how you play them. If a character bypassed fundamentals that would mean they are so strong, that they basically break the game, like Feral Chaos spamming Via Dolorossa in Dissidia Duodecim. As in, they would be banned from tournament play.
Okay, are you actually trolling here? Having the character do all the work for the player, implies winning through all the states and the match. If an option isn't viable, that means it can't win in any situation, meaning the character isn't winning games for the player. Phantom being " the easiest trap in the game" means it is a viable option, which combined with all the other moves you mentioned, that supposedly wins their respective states, would make her a good and apparently easy character that top players would love.Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move, doesn't mean I also think they are GOOD options. Just because they do the work for you doesn't make the option viable. It just makes it less demanding. Hence why I said 'bad habit teaching character'.
It's far more viable to extend offstage, but that Zelda is OBVIOUSLY going to toss a fire instead, because it's 'safer'.
It doesn't imply any such thing. If you keep missing what I continuously repeat, you'd assume that. Just because an option does work for you, doesn't mean the option is good. A chrom player knows how to recover, because his recovery doesn't do it all for him and it's actually bad and they have to work harder than Zelda to get back on stage. A Ganon knows how to get on the opponent in neutral, because they don't have a teleport or neutral special to avoid disadvantage, they have to fight their way out of it. A Lucina knows how to edge guard, because she goes off stage and aims her sword at the right place at the right time, where Zelda just throws out a Fire or sets up a cheese play with Phantom at the ledge while sitting in ledge roll range. A Link knows how to zone other zoners because he doesn't have a Phantom projectile that zones while blocking zoning tools during launch and after launch or a teleport to bypass it all.. If you understood what the word 'fundamental' means, you'd know it doesn't apply to the option itself, but how it can be used by the player piloting the option. Zelda's options are not fundamental friendly and encourage bad habits. THAT is why Zelda sucks the most, not just because her options are bad, but because those bad options also train bad habits and lack fundamentals training overall. You only call it trolling because you're a Zelda main, and I understand it hurts your feelings, but facts are facts.Okay, are you actually trolling here? Having the character do all the work for the player, implies winning through all the states and the match. If an option isn't viable, that means it can't win in any situation, meaning the character isn't winning games for the player. Phantom being " the easiest trap in the game" means it is a viable option, which combined with all the other moves you mentioned, that supposedly wins their respective states, would make her a good and apparently easy character that top players would love.
If you just want to rant about getting bodied by a quickplay Zelda, then there are more appropriate topics, but it is pretty clear you haven't played the character much or understand fighting games on a fundamental level, at this point.
Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:It doesn't imply any such thing. If you keep missing what I continuously repeat, you'd assume that. Just because an option does work for you, doesn't mean the option is good. A chrom player knows how to recovery, because his recovery doesn't do it all for him. A ganon knows how to get on the opponent in neutral, because they don't have a neutral special as an auto-get off me option like Zelda. A Lucina knows how to edge guard, because she goes off stage and aims her sword at the right place at the right time, where Zelda just throws out a Fire or sets up a cheese play with Phantom at the ledge while sitting in ledge roll range. A Link knows how to zone other zoners because he doesn't have a Phantom projectile that zones while blocking zoning tools during launch and after launch. If you understood what the word 'fundamental' means, you'd know it doesn't apply to the option itself, but how it can be used by the player piloting the option. Zelda's options are not fundamental friendly and encourage bad habits. THAT is why Zelda sucks the most, not just because her options are bad, but because those bad options also train bad habits and lack fundamentals training overall. You only call it trolling because you're a Zelda main, and I understand it hurts your feelings, but facts are facts.
Don't resort to auto-pilot defensive bias for your character, it wont help your debate.
I agree with this 100%.Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:
Nayru's Love
Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.
Farore's WInd
Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.
Phantom Knight
If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.
Din's Fire
Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.
And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:
As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.
Since it seems you are pretty content in wallowing in your ignorance, I don't really feel like explaining too much, why that is ignorant. You are wrong on such a fundamental level, both about Zelda and fighting games, we would literally have to start from square one and there are plenty of resources you could learn from, this board being one of them. However, since I'm generous, I'll give you a "small" snippet:
Nayru's Love
Can be baited and the copious endlag punished severely. Large disjoints can go through it and hit Zelda safely. Characters with Fox's Nair, can drop straight through the corners on the top and hit Zelda. The intangibility is only at the start, so you need precise timing in order to make effective use of this move.
Farore's WInd
Has a not insignificant startup and a large amount of endlag, making precise timing and reads mandatory or you'll be eating a hard punish. It only has specific distance, so proper spacing is required to hit opponents at various parts of the stage. Not safe on shield, not safe on whiff, not safe using when some characters are on the other side of the stage. The ladder can be DI'd, so requires an angle adjustment and DI read. Also, the obvious startup, means it's easy to time a two frame, which can easily be done, with a sufficiently wide or long lasting hitbox, requiring Zelda to mixup her recovery.
Phantom Knight
If either Phantom or Zelda is hit before the hitbox comes out, it will immediately fall apart. This means projectiles and any attack can easily interrupt requiring Zelda to be smart about how she charges. There is also a fair amount of startup and endlag, so requires proper spacing to safely use. When the hitbox comes out, you have the option to do anything from jumping to parrying, so it requires conditioning and a read, done through observing the opponents habits. It is a projectile, so can be reflected. Ledge trapping still leaves a 50-50 between any of the getup options and one other and some characters can avoid that situation altogether.
Din's Fire
Has a fairly long and obvious path and it requires the full length, in order to do any major knockback. This means forcing the opponent to burn through their resources and reading their path. It also will not cover every angle, so you need to be in specific positions. And of course, like most of Zelda's moves, it has a sweet-spot, so you need to be precise.
And since you seem to be so hung up on going out to edgeguard, here's a video compilation done by yours truly, on a character that can't be hit by Din's Fire or Phantom for free:
As you can see, it's a little more complicated than you're making it out to be. I would suggest closing your mouth and actually taking the time to read the board we are posting on. There is literally all this information that would correct your misconceptions, you don't even have to google.
i second this. a casual can edge guard joker. it's like the most bread and butter way to exploit him.Also, side note. Edge guarding joker isn't exactly a good example to use. Of ALL the characters to edge guard example me with, you give me one of the most straight forward, easy recoveries to edge guard? Ghod was edge guarding Jokers the first day he payed the game. I'm very VERY unimpressed with this example. .
You came screeching into the topic, spouting about how Zelda does everything for the player and I gave you that list to prove otherwise. Zelda does NOT carry her players by any stretch of the imagination. I've never heard anyone refer to her as an autopilot character, because that's patently ridiculous, even with a brief amount of time playing her. Zelda doesn't bypass fundamentals, she REQUIRES solid fundamentals to even work at a basic level. All of her moves require precision and naturally, that's going to require a solid base of spacing. You're not going to automatically land sweet-spots without understanding at least that. I don't know where you got the idea that any character could possibly teach bad habits or not teach fundamentals, that's also a completely silly idea. Bad habits get punished, no matter what character you're playing. If you want to do decent at all, you're naturally going to avoid them.Are you brain dead or intentionally ignoring what I said? I never EVER said that Zelda's options are good. I REPEATEDLY said they are bad. I also repeatedly said that her options encourage BAD HABITS. What part of that do you not wrap your brain around? I'm not misinformed, I played the character before I mained Link.
You came screeching into the topic, spouting about how Zelda does everything for the player and I gave you that list to prove otherwise. Zelda does NOT carry her players by any stretch of the imagination. I've never heard anyone refer to her as an autopilot character, because that's patently ridiculous, even with a brief amount of time playing her. Zelda doesn't bypass fundamentals, she REQUIRES solid fundamentals to even work at a basic level. All of her moves require precision and naturally, that's going to require a solid base of spacing. You're not going to automatically land sweet-spots without understanding at least that. I don't know where you got the idea that any character could possibly teach bad habits or not teach fundamentals, that's also a completely silly idea. Bad habits get punished, no matter what character you're playing. If you want to do decent at all, you're naturally going to avoid them.
You keep going on about how her moves teach or don't teach, you still have yet to elaborate. What "nature" do you speak of? Why can Zelda players like Ven and Mystearica place top 32 at prestigious tournaments like Pound and Prime, if they have bad habits? What bad habits precisely are we talking about?
You keep going on about Din's Fire and edgeguardiing with it. Yes, that is a valid edgeguard. No, Zeldas aren't going to use it all the time. As an actual Zelda main, who has put over 200 hours in her, I can tell you what is and isn't a viable edgeguard, depends on the situation and character. Some characters can't be edgeguarded with close options or have very exploitable recoveries, so using Din's Fire is a good option. Others, can be easily spiked by Dair or edgeguarded by Nayru, so that might be a better option. If you're going to be hanging near and above the ledge, you bet I'm going to use Phantom to snipe you.
I used the Joker compilation, because that's what I had uploaded and on hand at the time. No, I'm not going to go through the effort to make and upload another one, that would take too much effort and time. Assuming is literally all you've done since you came into this topic. Somehow, the idea that your personal anecdotes don't speak for all Zeldas, hasn't quite crossed your mind. At the end of the day, what works, works. If you're getting edgeguarded by Din's Fire all the time, which by the sounds of things you are, then of course I'm going to keep doing it. That's just common sense.
Why don't you two just play on Friday when you do your open arenas?I didn't say Zelda carried her players, I said that buffing Zelda would make carrying her players a reality. You again ignored what I said. Buffing this type of toolkit has already been done in a smash game, and it was a disaster.
I don't think I've been hit with an offstage Fire since the first month I played and if you go back and reread what I said about Fire, I called it a bad option that often misses more than going off stage with a hitbox does. It's not a viable assumption because it's not only false, but desperate.
The only fundamental objective I learned with the character is keeping a safe distance, and sweetspotting toe and how to trap the ledge with cheese.
Your 200 hours VS my about 180 isn't a huge difference.
There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.
1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
...I didn't say Zelda carried her players, I said that buffing Zelda would make carrying her players a reality. You again ignored what I said.,
In fact, her attacks do everything for the player, the player doesn't have to do much with her to play her.
SHE DOES do all the work for the player.
Yes, she does EVERYTHING for the player
Just because I said that the moves do everything for the player, rather than the player having to do everything with the move,
Everything I said is 100% true
This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.I
Buffing this type of toolkit has already been done in a smash game, and it was a disaster.
So in other words, fundamentals. And you keep referring to Phantom as "cheese", which sounds suspiciously like scrub talk and makes me doubt your motives.The only fundamental objective I learned with the character is keeping a safe distance, and sweetspotting toe and how to trap the ledge with cheese.
I just checked and it's actually at 237:24.Your 200 hours VS my about 180 isn't a huge difference.
That sounds like a you problem, not a character problem, as you need all those explicitly in order to do anything with Zelda.There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.
1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
Sounds like you're just not good at the character.There is a reason I dropped the character. Actually, I named multiples.
1- I wasn't learning valuable stage control
2- I wasn't learning viable disadvantage escapes
3- I wasn't learning extension and threatening edge guard setups,
1 - If zelda had a 'decent neutral', she'd have a viable neutral, but she doesn't. Frame data to cover her neutral weakness is one of the most common buff requests I see from virtually every zelda, because they don't want to be punished so easily. If the neutral she had was decent, Zelda mains common complaints wouldn't be how punishable she is in neutral all the time. Don't contradict yourselves. It's embarrassing.Sounds like you're just not good at the character.
1 - Zelda has a decent neural, so I'm not sure what your struggle is.
If you're trying to play her as a rushdown or pure zoner, she's not designed wrong; you're playing her wrong.
2 - Zelda's weak disadvantage forces me to read and anticipate the opponent's options and habits during their advantage.
3 - Zelda has some of the best edgeguard setups in the game,
Go play Lucina.
Phantom ledge trapping IS cheese. Cheese only works consistently against anyone with little to no matchup experience, thus a not very viable option. You're right, it's a me problem, because I like characters that allow a higher skill ceiling for me to learn, rather than using the rinse and repeat cheese that is the entire Zelda character. So it has nothing to do with being bad with the character and everything to do with character being bad herself, I've already addressed that. I don't play Zelda because I'm not into cheese, and I'm not into buffing cheese because buffed cheese is what creates over powered characters in a platform fighter. I'm more into the idea of reworking her toolkit to not being cheese....
This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.
So in other words, fundamentals. And you keep referring to Phantom as "cheese", which sounds suspiciously like scrub talk and makes me doubt your motives.
I just checked and it's actually at 237:24.
That sounds like a you problem, not a character problem, as you need all those explicitly in order to do anything with Zelda.
You still haven't elaborated as to why and what bad habits Zelda teaches.
oh snap go easy on them man xD you're gonna break some bones here. but yeah zeldas neutral sucks and now that i've been playing her the past couple weeks now, i do notice i tend to favor pressing the b button to get out of the shtf moments. and yes her edge guarding tools suck except against really bad recoveries. she has ledge trap setups but she doesnt have anything really viable and practical which is also universal as far as actual off stage edge guarding goes. i think theyre confusing ledge trapping with edge guarding. sound like casuals to me lol1 - If zelda had a 'decent neutral', she'd have a viable neutral, but she doesn't. Frame data to cover her neutral weakness is one of the most common buff requests I see from virtually every zelda, because they don't want to be punished so easily. If the neutral she had was decent, Zelda mains common complaints wouldn't be how punishable she is in neutral all the time. Don't contradict yourselves. It's embarrassing.
2- Zeldas weak disadvantage is why virtually every Zelda auto pilots neutral special (a bad habit).
3- If Zelda had some of the best edge guard setups (not even close to the best), I'd see Zelda's use them, both casually and competitively, which I almost never do. I see a lot of cheese traps with phantom and fire tho. Zelda is without a doubt, leagues below better edge guard characters. Don't make me laugh with this.
But your Zelda suuuuuucks. I mean, I'll play against it if you want I guess but like... I'd rather you play your main lol. Bro just stick to Ike. I'm far more into neutral engagement than having to out-zone a bad zoner.yalls hatred for eachother is kinda entertaining. im gonna watch from teh sides and eat some popcorn now.
also you didnt respond when i asked you to play against my zelda. open a private arena so i can get some matchup experience.
It's not completely lagless, but it might as well be when used in the proper context. You pretty much have to be standing next to her when she lands, to actually punish. I used Palutena's as an example, because she's not safe in landing next to her opponent and if her opponent gets a read on her landing, they can still punish. That's why Palutena mains often learn how to ledge cancel, to help mixup her landings. If we apply that to Zelda, it would still allow for her opponent to whiff punish and Zelda would have to be careful about spamming it, lest her opponent starts reading her landing habits. Due to that, she wouldn't be able to land on the ground all the time and landing on the platforms, will put her in disadvantage, and unlike Palutena, Zelda doesn't have an omnidirectional Nair to cover her.And I didn't know Palu's teleport has little to no endlag but since she has a hitbox then zero endlag would be kinda eh but I agree that the endlag should be reduced to some degree if she doesn't hit anything. Otherwise spamming teleport would be awful for the opponent:
If you hit then you receive big knockboack and if you don't hit then you can't be really punished for that.
Alright, you are pretty all over the place. Either she does everything for the player or her moves are very easily gotten around, these are contradictory things. Cheese is what we generally refer moves that are both really easy and incredibly powerful or have some janky attributes(Roller, Gordos, etc), as. A move that can apparently be gotten around so easily, despite being the "easiest ledge trap in the game", isn't "cheese".Phantom ledge trapping IS cheese. Cheese only works consistently against anyone with little to no matchup experience, thus a not very viable option. You're right, it's a me problem, because I like characters that allow a higher skill ceiling for me to learn, rather than using the rinse and repeat cheese that is the entire Zelda character. So it has nothing to do with being bad with the character and everything to do with character being bad herself, I've already addressed that. I don't play Zelda because I'm not into cheese, and I'm not into buffing cheese because buffed cheese is what creates over powered characters in a platform fighter. I'm more into the idea of reworking her toolkit to not being cheese.
...Or you could just elaborate as to what these bad habits Zelda supposedly teaches are. For how full of yourself you are, I would think you could at least articulate that much. All you've been doing is "it is because I say it is", you haven't given any sort of reasoning or details. Look at the posts that precede yours. Notice how the vast majority of them, go into depth as to why they hold those opinions. Your posts in contrast, expect to know this as common sense, despite nobody serious ever referring to Zelda as an autopilot character, that does all the work for her players. Seriously, either put up or shut up.If you want, I'll play you in a favorable matchup for you, on my broken thumb, and beat you. I'll exploit all your bad habits that virtually every Zelda has and punish your whiffs, which will be the majority of your attempts. You'll be missing every Fire, and since I have external methods to recover, I wont be getting cheesed by your phantom. Choice is yours tho. I have open arenas on Friday and Saturday nights, Fridays has long lines but Saturdays is invite open arenas that has a 2 person limit, but you can choose either one, I don't care.
i think you misunderstand what 'does everything for you' means. it means you don't have to high risk or perform any level of difficult inputs. zeldas ledge traps are the easiest to do because they require no in depth inputs or strict scenarios, you can just set it up. cheese and jank originated in melee terminology, where i come from. cheese is merely a bad option that shouldnt work but did. the other term used for it isnt just jank but also gimmick.Alright, you are pretty all over the place. Either she does everything for the player or her moves are very easily gotten around, these are contradictory things. Cheese is what we generally refer moves that are both really easy and incredibly powerful or have some janky attributes(Roller, Gordos, etc), as. A move that can apparently be gotten around so easily, despite being the "easiest ledge trap in the game", isn't "cheese".
i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias....Or you could just elaborate as to what these bad habits Zelda supposedly teaches are. For how full of yourself you are, I would think you could at least articulate that much. All you've been doing is "it is because I say it is", you haven't given any sort of reasoning or details. Look at the posts that precede yours. Notice how the vast majority of them, go into depth as to why they hold those opinions. Your posts in contrast, expect to know this as common sense, despite nobody serious ever referring to Zelda as an autopilot character, that does all the work for her players. Seriously, either put up or shut up.
I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet). He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about. The same bad habits he keeps asking me to explain but I already have like a dozen times but he ignored them. One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it. Actually, no, you could probably get away with it against casuals and bad players who burn double jumps at the mid point off stage. So I guess you can say it like this, Zelda is more viable the worse the opponent is. There we go. That's perfect description. Zelda is the anti-noob character.i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias.
That's perfect description. Zelda is the anti-noob character.
i think it's time that you do something about that ego of yours >.>I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet). He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about. One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it. Actually, no, you could probably get away with it against casuals and bad players who burn double jumps at the mid point off stage. So I guess you can say it like this, Zelda is more viable the worse the opponent is. There we go. That's perfect description. Zelda is the anti-noob character.
And as I illustrated above, that is patently untrue. "does everything for you" does not mean simple inputs, it means easily beating your opponent. You need to have timing, otherwise your opponent will get around any Phantom ledge traps fairly easily. Too early and your opponent will just wait it out, with their ledge invincibility. Too late and they will just jump over it. You need to have timing and you need to read the 50-50 that comes after that. Those are on the onus of the Zelda player, not something the character can help with.think you misunderstand what 'does everything for you' means. it means you don't have to high risk or perform any level of difficult inputs. zeldas ledge traps are the easiest to do because they require no in depth inputs or strict scenarios, you can just set it up. cheese and jank originated in melee terminology, where i come from. cheese is merely a bad option that shouldnt work but did. the other term used for it isnt just jank but also gimmick.
He didn't explain ****, he just kept repeating she teaches bad habits and still refuses to elaborate why. You also just admitted earlier that you are a casual and only picked up Zelda to "troll" competitive players. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion even remotely seriously. Here's a hint, if you're getting away with spamming Nayru's Love in disadvantage, you're playing bad players.i think you should play him so he can upload a video about bad zelda habits. he also did explain you just didnt read it. i understood what he is talking about and didn't ignore it because i dont have zelda bias.
Have you ever considered your personal anecdotes, don't reflect the Zelda player base as a whole? You know what with science and statistics and all. That if you did any sort of poking around, including the players I mention earlier getting top 32 in Pound and Prime, that maybe your a little off base here? You seem to have ignored that little bit, that Ven beat Esam and Mysterica beat Seagull Joe twice, 6WX, and ran a close set with Mr. E. All players that should be able to easily punish bad habits.I think they pretty much already made it clear that they wont. He doesn't realize that my most common match up is against Zelda and Megaman, nor does he settle with the fact that she used to be my main. Virtually every Zelda I play (except for casuals) have the same bad habits (casuals excluded because their entire core being is a bad habit because they don't know the game yet).
This might come as a huge shock to you guys, but not everyone as the same lifestyle or schedule as you do. I'm not about to go out of my way to "prove" something you can damn well research yourself. Not that anything would be proved, given I don't represent the entire Zelda player base or that this has any relevance to the discussion at all. You want to play someone, go play Ven or Mystearica.He doesn't want to play because he doesn't want me to show him the very same bad habits that I talked about.
You mean the one that successfully setup the edgeguard? That can be used to burn resources? Or you can use Phantom to burn resources, then follow up with Din's Fire? You know, what works, works? Do you honestly think Din's Fire is an inherent bad habit, even when it works or used in the context where it can work? Like lol, I can see why you couldn't hack Zelda.One of those bad habits was executed regularly in that really bad example he gave me earlier. You know, tossing out fire before going off stage? It's really not viable in almost any scenario, maybe against characters like Little Mac or Yoshi, Falcon or Ganon, but really to be honest, that's about it
If you're getting away with edge guarding jokers who burn double jumps at mid point off stage and air dodge 10 miles away from the ledge, you're edge guarding bad jokers, but hey, you can use bad examples.He didn't explain ****, he just kept repeating she teaches bad habits and still refuses to elaborate why. You also just admitted earlier that you are a casual and only picked up Zelda to "troll" competitive players. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't take your opinion even remotely seriously. Here's a hint, if you're getting away with spamming Nayru's Love in disadvantage, you're playing bad players.
I'm well aware that there are a number of things to say about Link. I brought them up in other threads. For example, how most Links like to toss a boomerang at ledge and then pull a bomb, instead of pulling a bomb and going off stage. I could name quite a few bad habits a lot of Link players exhibit. Every character exhibits a utility that would exaggerate a bad habit or two, but Zelda's entire character is a bad habit machine. That's the difference here. I actually spent a good week training my muscle memory and mental responses on Link to kick the bad Link habits (one of which I mentioned) so that I wasn't doing them anymore. You don't have to tell me anything new because there isn't anything new that I don't already know about the character. There are times I actually play Link and don't use a single projectile the entire match for the sake of training my hand to hand neutral and edge guarding.i think it's time that you do something about that ego of yours >.>
tbh if you want to talk down on Zelda go make your own thread or something, i don''t see a ''lets talk **** about Zelda'' sentence in the title.
btw you do realize there is alot of bad things that could be said about Link right? but unlike you i don't have such ego
Okay, after bringing up the f-air and b-air on my last post, here are my inputs on how to improve their hitboxes.
The f-air and b-air would be treated equally with their animation length and hitbox attributes. The sweetspot gains a shield damage bonus, and stronger BKB, but as a drawback, its KBG is reduced. Of course, despite the KBG nerf, the sweetspot can KO slightly earlier than before, thanks to the increased knockback dealt (courtesy of the BKB buff) at lower damage percentages.Hitbox | Base Damage | Knockback Angle | BKB | KBG | Shield Damage
Sweetspot | 20 | Sakurai Angle| 60 | 80 | 10
Sourspots | 5 | Sakurai Angle | 20 | 90 | 0
As for the sourspots, they do receive stronger base damage and BKB (at the cost of lower KBG). Starts to KO middleweights when their current damage goes over 350% (assuming that they're positioned at the center of an Omega form stage).