A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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- Oct 13, 2007
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Don't Drop the Ball!
But you probably did if you ever tried G&W's D-throw. All is not lost yet though!
Table of Contents:
Introduction [INTD]
Conditioning [CNDG]
Options [OPTN]
*Opponent's Options [OPOP]
*G&W's Options [GWOP]
**Buffering Options [BFFO]
Character Specific Data [CRSD]
But you probably did if you ever tried G&W's D-throw. All is not lost yet though!
Table of Contents:
Introduction [INTD]
Conditioning [CNDG]
Options [OPTN]
*Opponent's Options [OPOP]
*G&W's Options [GWOP]
**Buffering Options [BFFO]
Character Specific Data [CRSD]
Introduction [INTD]:
G&W's D-throw is a notable throw. Loved, hated, criticized, underrated, abused, and misused by many, the facts are that G&W's D-throw is a valuable move in its ability to put G&W in an advantageous position where his opponent has only four options, which are not teching, teching in place, techroll away, and techroll in. All of these can be punished through smart techchasing. While in normal situations, G&W *usually* can't cover every option at once, a good guess or read on his part if done right is generally significantly rewarding while a bad guess on G&W's part generally should be low risk as long as he didn't over-commit to a poor techchase option. Granted, people may be cautious about the guessing game involved with G&W's D-throw, but that brings me to my next topic.
Conditioning [CNDG]:
"A2! Why a topic on conditioning?" Because conditioning is exactly how you make G&W's D-throw work in normal situations. Now many people are going to criticize G&W's D-throw for the fact that you can tech(roll) it. What is understated is how those options are ultimately unsafe. You just have to understand how to punish people if they insist on teching all the time. To cut to a helpful point, every techroll in the game can be punished by a regrab or techchase F-air. This is a HUGE deal, and smart opponents will quickly understand that getting techchased into regrab or F-air, especially if you do it with some level of consistency is in fact not something to brush off lightly, especially when the latter is good for KOs. If you teach them that techrolling isn't always the best option, opponents will start to either not tech at all, or tech in place to try to trick you. Free tilts, instant Dash Attack (hugely underrated option), or in some cases D-smash/F-smash once they start doing that. Keep in mind that it is pretty much always safe for G&W to commit to punishing a techroll. If they techroll in the direction you commit to, punish it. If they don't, you're back in neutral position as long as you didn't over-commit to whiffing a laggy move. Don't let your opponent pull bull**** on you just because you weren't expecting them to do something.
It gets even better when you grab someone near the edge, where if your opponent decides to land on the side closest to the edge, you can cover THREE OUT OF FOUR OF THEIR OPTIONS with D-tilt, Dash Attack, or sometimes even F-smash (which regardless of character can hit every techroll that is cut short by an edge). Of course, an opponent who is aware of this will understand that techrolling towards center stage is theoretically logical due to the implied threat of getting 3 out of 4 options screwed over by the edge, though he might also realize that it would be too easy for you to cover the option of simply techchasing their roll inward towards center stage. The value of knowing your opponent, which habits you can condition, and capitalizing effectively is rather obvious here.
I haven't even touched what happens when you D-throw someone on a small platform, but I will let this guide speak for itself. Read on!
Options [OPTN]
Before I get to your options, I will restate that the opponent has 4 options.
*Opponent's Options [OPOP]:
Not teching: I guess you could count this as two options technically given they can choose which side to land on by DIing, but the frame advantage and time you get to react to this is pretty significant. If they try to land behind you, just react to it and proceed with instant Dash attack, F/D-tilt, or Jab. Furthermore a lot of silly people who try to land behind G&W will also end up rolling in that direction, which is VERY easy to techchase regrab or U-smash on reaction.[collapse=Universal frame data for not teching]Total: 26
Vulnerable: all frames (26)[/collapse]Teching in place: An option that is somewhat better for the opponent if you commit to punishing an anticipated techroll. However this option is equally punishable as not teching at all, and in pretty much all situations, anything you can do to an opponent who does not tech, you can do to an opponent who techs in place. Do not worry about your opponent teching in place behind you. This is impossibly difficult to do.[collapse=Universal frame data for teching in place]Total: 26
Invulnerable: 1-20 (20)
Vulnerable: 20-26 (6)[/collapse]Techrolling away or towards you: Generally considered together to be the best two options for getting out of G&W's techchase traps. It sorta is given that in most cases, G&W can't really cover both techrolls on reaction. However a read techroll can be easily punished with regrab or F-air in all matchups, so it's not all bad if they techroll. Keep in mind on small platforms, especially like those on BF, buffered D-smash will always sweetspot on techroll in EITHER direction.[collapse=Universal frame data for techrolling]Total: 40
Invulnerable: 1-20 (20)
Vulnerable: 21-40 (20)[/collapse]
By now you may have noticed that the frame advantage G&W has on opponents who either don't tech or tech in place is completely identical. Also what you may have noticed is that the difference in frame advantage between the opponent techrolling and (not) teching in place is 14 frames. While you get a massive frame advantage for your opponent techrolling, it's the distance the techroll travels that will determine how the folowups work on it.
So while I don't really feel like doing this individually for each character, the general formula for G&W's D-throw advantage is like this:[collapse="formula for D-throw advantage"]{Opponent Airtime} + {total frames of option} - {G&W's D-throw recovery (weight dependent)} = frame advantage[/collapse]Everything except Opponent Airtime has been explained. To keep it short, depending on opponent's height, physics, and how much damage they have, as well as how stale D-throw is, they could be in the air for around 1-3 frames before hitting the ground (teching however can be buffered before that). NORMALLY this does not affect ANY followups significantly, though there are a few character specific examples that will be covered in this guide.
Now the fun part about techchasing begins when we realize that G&W has many, many, many options for techchasing.
*G&W's Options [GWOP]:
Please reference the Frame Data thread for more details. If you're having trouble finding a move, simply copy the names of the moves I have listed and Ctrl+F them in the frame data thread.
Oil Panic: 2 frames startup. Why did I even mention this? There's actually a few matchups where you can get a full Bucket, and Oil Panic as a techchase option is brilliant both in terms of speed and reward. Oil Panic can also be amazing at covering 3 out of 4 options given that the huge lingering hitbox is capable of sometimes catching slower techrolls, while teching in place or not teching in front of G&W gets destroyed.
Neutral A: 4 frames startup. Jab is a pretty decent option given its speed. You can generally react to people not teching pretty easily with this. Keep in mind that buffering Jab will generally whiff on people who tech in place. What's especially great about Jab is how it sets up into a (mostly) free regrab. Beware that people can spotdodge, or sometimes interrupt the grab though.
Down tilt: 6 frames startup. Great option. Damage is low, but the move is quick, and it sends people out at a nice angle. If you land this at high percents and get someone offstage, it's usually easy to finish their stock with a F-air edgeguard, especially against predictable recoveries. In a select number of matchups, D-tilt's range can actually allow it to cover techrolls as well, making it useful for covering multiple options at once.
Dash Attack: 6 frames startup. One of G&W's better options for techchasing, yet one of his least used by many players. I personally don't understand why this isn't used more. The damage is nice, the positional setup is also very nice, and it's easy to cover both your opponent's missed tech and tech in place with this option. A word of caution though, as some characters who techroll away can punish a whiffed DA meant to cover a tech in place.
Footstool: 5+1 (variable) frames startup. The footstool is tricky and situational, but it’s a powerful option for techchasing. You can footstool and stun an opponent during any vulnerable frames of their tech in place or techroll as long as you can reach their head quickly enough during their vulnerable period, which from experimentation seems to simply require you to be jumping for around 2-5 frames (average 3) after inputting a short hop, slightly fewer frames if you can input the footstool after a fullhop (read the section on buffering for more information on this). This combos into D-air, and I recommend reading the comments on D-air I have in this guide which are a little further down this section.
Forward Tilt: 10 frames startup. F-tilt is a fairly unimpressive option, but what it can do is get guaranteed punishes on every tech in place and every missed tech in the game. Given that F-tilt sorta can be used as a KO move at high percents, it's definitely an option, though normally the options you should consider over it are D-tilt and Dash Attack. D-tilt is easier to land and has superior trajectory, while DA does more damage and is both easier to land and has setup potential.
Neutral aerial: 5+7 frames startup (5+22 for the final hit). Credits to God-is-my-Rock here for what I’m going to be calling GIMR’s N-air option select (<-Click the link to see the original post!). Neutral aerial at first glance is very situational because only ROB, Jigglypuff, G&W, and Kirby get hit by it for not teching. However many more characters not only get hit by N-air for teching in place, many of those characters will also get hit by the same N-air’s last hit for techrolling (away from G&W, as far as I can see). Whether you have to buffer a dash or simply drift while N-airing is still remains to be seen through experimentation, but if you land the last hit of N-air at low percents, you can get a combo into sweetspot D-air to spike them back into the ground for another grab. For more documentation on techchasing with Neutral aerial, please read this wonderful Metagame Minute article written by God-is-my-Rock.
Up tilt: 13 frames startup. Another situational option. It's probably best on ROB, maybe okay on other not too skinny lightweights like Kirby. U-tilt can score consecutive hits at low percents...and I guess it could be used as a KO move (one that is stronger than F-tilt for that matter), though its uses are limited by its high hitbox, which causes it to whiff on a lot of missed techs.
Foward aerial: 5+10 frames startup. GREAT option, one of G&W's most important techchase options by far. The damage and knockback are excellent, and the beauty of this move is the fact that it's a consistent option on every techroll in the game (except for perhaps one...) You could also buffer F-airs on missed techs or techs in place on the same characters you can D-smash. You might want to consider it given that it does more damage than D-smash anyway.
Down Smash: 15 frames startup. A decent option on lightweights who get comboed by it for (not) teching in place. You don't need to react at all to people who don't tech, just buffering the D-smash will work. Given that it sends people at a low trajectory and has rather high knockback, it's a well known option for KOs and gimp setups. Your opponents will be expecting this, and given that, try to be creative in exploitation of this fact. Furthermore, against anyone unlucky enough to get grabbed on a small platform like on Battlefield, and even moreso if they suffer from a 15 frame or greater disadvantage for (not) teching in place, D-smash will hit them out of ALL options.
Judgement: 16 frames startup. An overall decent if somewhat unreliable option. There's a number of lightweights who can be comboed into this move for not teching or teching in place. More interesting is probably the fact that Judgement is a techchase option on a number of techrolls. It's worth knowing that due to the fact the 9 has a smaller hitbox than the other numbers, it's harder to techchase into a 9 than it is to techchase into other Judgement numbers, but regardless the option does exist. Techchasing into a 6, a 2, or an 8 can also be pretty profitable, so don't cry immediately if you don't get the 9s you want.
Down aerial: 5+12 frames startup. Buffered D-air only hits a few characters for (not) teching in place, but oh boy it's extremely worth it on those few characters. Credits to Vinnie for discovering the Viva combo, where on such characters, you can land both hits of D-air for 20% AND a regrab. This is one of G&W's most damaging options after D-throw, and it's great to know that it works on Metaknight and Olimar. It’s even better to know that D-air can be used as an option to chase techrolls on those characters and more, and you can thank God-is-my-Rock for pointing that out.
Foward smash: 17 frames startup. Hits basically the same characters D-air can hit. You kinda have to predict which side they land on, given that you have to buffer F-smash for it to consistently hit. The HUGE knockback of F-smash makes D-throw F-smash an amazing kill setup, especially against people who both don't tech, and always DI towards center stage to avoid getting gimped by D-smash. There's even a few characters you can punish techrolls with F-smash by simply walking a few steps before F-smashing, though this is rare.
Chef: 18 frames startup. I mean...this is technically an option on anyone you have a 18 or higher frame advantage for (not) teching in place, but I would pretty much never recommend this given that D-air, F-smash, and practically everything else that takes less time to do is just better. Furthermore buffering this is liable to make you automatically commit to shooting 5 pieces whether you want it or not, ignoring the fact you're already at a sizable frame disadvantage against anyone who techrolls to avoid this on top of the fact the projectile is unlikely to hit them anyway. I'm not saying Chef is useless, but for techchasing it essentially is. There are better situations to be using Chef in than techchasing.
Up smash: 24 frames startup on back, 25 frames startup on front. Generally this is the most powerful option in the game for punishing a missed tech AND a roll in the anticipated direction, though I wouldn't count on this given how relatively easy this is to avoid. There ARE a few techrolls you can punish with running U-smash though, and of course the reward for this is simply incredible.
**Buffering Options [BFFO]:
You’ll see me throw around the term “buffering” a bit in this guide, which is inputting commands within 10 frames before you’re actually allowed to move. Buffering makes a difference especially when punishing people who do (not) tech in place, though buffering Dashes also helps, and may be essential when punishing techrolls. Here is a brief synopsis on how to buffer inputs for everything that matters on a GCN controller with standard settings:
[collapse=Dash:] Input a sideways Smash input on the control stick and make sure the control stick is neutral before your first actionable frame. This will likely not be an issue in actual play, but to buffer a dash in the direction you are not facing, you must hold the control stick full sideways for more than one frame, and keep in mind you spend a frame turning around. The tricky part about buffering a dash is to make sure the control stick is in neutral during activation, but quickly holding the control stick forwards once you actually are running.[/collapse][collapse=Turnaround:] If you want to buffer a turnaround D-tilt or Jab, you must first input a light control stick press before doing anything else. You do not lose a frame for buffering turnaround tilts, Jabs, or Smashes, though I’m certain it takes an extra frame to turnaround DA under all circumstances.[/collapse][collapse=Jab:] Simple. Just mash the A button if you want this. You don’t really need to buffer this though given timing is lenient due to how fast this move is, so if you want to Jab on reaction to which side your opponent lands on without teching, you can feasibly do this. Be wary about whiffing Jab when buffering it on techs.[/collapse][collapse=D-tilt:] Similar to Jab, usually you DON’T need to buffer this given that the timing to combo into this off D-throw is usually lenient. But if you want to buffer this just to be sure, LIGHTLY hold the control stick downwards and mash the A button. Alternatively read the section on F-tilt.[/collapse][collapse=F-tilt/Judgement:] This one will be tricky if you don’t understand it, because the buffer system mostly only allows you to buffer an action if the control stick is in neutral position before your first actionable frame. To buffer this, hold the control stick in the desired direction, input the attack within the 10 frame window, and release the control stick quickly.[/collapse][collapse=U-tilt:] If you want to buffer this, all you need to do is hold Up and spam the A button.[/collapse][collapse=Dash Attack:] Again as with D-tilt, and Jab, you don’t really need to buffer this at all given that you could simply just try reacting to which side they landed and still have plenty of time to land this move. You should all know that the proper way to instant Dash Attack is inputting the Dash and immediately hitting C-stick down. Trying to input a turnaround DA too quickly will result in a turnaround D-smash instead.[/collapse][collapse=D-smash/F-smash:] Spam the C-stick in the desired direction. You do not lose a frame for doing a reverse F-smash, which is nice to know against Olimar especially.[/collapse][collapse=Aerials (and footstool)] There’s more than one way to do this, but there is one rule you must obey here. The Attack input has to always be inputted within 5 frames of your first actionable frame, due to your jump startup having 5 frames of duration. Furthermore buffering a U-air, should you want one requires you to hold the control stick lightly upwards otherwise you will buffer a U-smash instead. You can for example either input Jump+Direction+Attack or Jump+C-stick (no U-air for this one) within 5 frames before your first actionable frame (make sure control stick is neutral before the actionable frame!). Or you can input the jump within the normal 10 frame window, and then input your direction and your attack during your 5 frame jump startup. Keep in mind that buffering a dash before aerial does not cost a frame, but gives you some forward momentum before doing your aerial.
Keep in mind, footstools generally cannot be buffered. They have to be timed to meet two conditions, one that the opponent actually is vulnerable after teching (minor issue to keep track of if they tech in place), and two that you’re able to reach their head during a vulnerable frame (given that footstool stun is blockable). Fullhopping can make you footstool faster than short hopping, but it’s incredibly difficult to reasonably do given that you have to basically hold the jump button until the end of your jump startup to fulllhop and you are not allowed to use another button for jumping while holding your jump button. Tap Jump is a workaround that can let you footstool while holding a jump button, although you might find it difficult to D-air after footstooling with Tap Jump.[/collapse]