Doomed to low tier?

[KirinBlaze]

MalcomM is a great Sonic player. I've seen some of his vids and he practically toys with his opponents. He uses Sonic's running speed to his fullest.

Although, he's the only one doing this, so I don't think it'll be enough if I had to consider pushing Sonic to mid tier.

Watching his Sonic is just mind blowing. I've never seen any other Sonic player do the things he does. It's really fun to watch him play. He mindgames the **** out of.

 

[PKNintendo]

Lol i love how you do that. I just said it was a big problem. Not the ratio. btw marth boards think its 8:2 Marth last time i checked.

It's not that big and easily dealt with.

Don't get grabbed remember? And they're plenty of even matchups where Ness gets grabbed released smashed. Same goes for Wario, I mean they've had people saying stuff like Sheik is 7-3 because of a grab release upsmash. Come on!

Last time you checked was a looong time ago.

And everyone knows every other board is scared of the Marth boards.

 

[Da Man]

Fact: Ness is a really badass character
Fact: Mario seems to be conisdered good by many and has a lot of potential to grow

As a Mario AND Ness mainer I agree with that.

Neither one is trash, and both have (hopefully) great chances of moving up in the tier list.

And everyone knows every other board is scared of the Marth boards.

And it just so happens that Marth is my 3rd main. Seems like I'm the middle man in the Mario boards then

 

[vato_break]

If there was no grab release on ness, ness would go up in the tier list for sure,but ness will probably stay at the top of low and mario will be mid of mid.Both have much potential so there's a good chance i'm wrong.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Hah, hardly... Mario'll be in mid tier next list.
Ness, Yoshi, and Lucas will too.

The matchups are looking more than fair (50:50 on average) now all we need is more mario reps in tourneys and we'll be good

Also i think that it kinda depends on how the next list is set up-- 5 tiers or 4 tiers.

If it's 4 Tiers, then I can see mario in mid to high-middle, but if its 5 then i presume we'll see low-middle or top-low tier.

Depends, I guess we'll all find out on January 5th...

 

[Matt07]

Oh hmm didn't know the new tier list was coming out on the 5 of Jan. Can't wait to see it.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Oh hmm didn't know the new tier list was coming out on the 5 of Jan. Can't wait to see it.

And then June 1st is the next one. Just check out the SBR Update Thread in General Brawl Discussion.

 

[pengwins]

I agree with Neon Ness.. I used to main Lucas before Mario, and I've tried Ness quite a few times. They really are pretty good if you can understand their movesets. And they have fantastic combos if you can get them down.

 

[PKNintendo]

If there was no grab release on ness, ness would go up in the tier list for sure,but ness will probably stay at the top of low and mario will be mid of mid.Both have much potential so there's a good chance i'm wrong.

The old me would have that so too... But grab releases are no more than extra combo's. Some of them can be worked around, and with EIDI you can even escape some grab releases.

Okay Mario mains, honest question. Whats the matchup vs Link with Mario? Im assuming 6-4 for Mario, maybe even more?

Now what if Link has a grab release dsmash on Mario.
Is the matchup changed to 6-4 Link?

Meh, Lucas won't be in mid, thats for sure.

 

[Judge Judy]

Okay Mario mains, honest question. Whats the matchup vs Link with Mario? Im assuming 6-4 for Mario, maybe even more?

Now what if Link has a grab release dsmash on Mario.
Is the matchup changed to 6-4 Link?

Link would need a lot more than a grab release Dsmash to put this match-up in his favor. Anyway, the match-up is proably about 60:40 in Mario's favor.

 

[PKNintendo]

Link would need a lot more than a grab release Dsmash to put this match-up in his favor. Anyway, the match-up is proably about 60:40 in Mario's favor.

See! Thats exactly what I mean. Grab release aren't that bad!

Again, grab release against Ganon, Falcon, e.c.t.

 

[Judge Judy]

See! Thats exactly what I mean. Grab release aren't that bad!

Well, for one thing, Link's grab is laggy and highly punishable when he misses so he won't be using it too often anyway.

 

[HeroMystic]

Link will use grabs for punishing and mindgames. He grabs ALOT... not too much, but he'll use them a lot.

 

[Judge Judy]

Link will use grabs for punishing and mindgames. He grabs ALOT... not too much, but he'll use them a lot.

I knew he used grabs for punishing but I didn't know he used them for mindgames.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yep. The most favorite to all Link players is jab canceling into grabs. Some others are Z-air approaching to grabs, N-air to grabs, and the simple-yet-hilarious running past to pivot grab.

 

[Judge Judy]

Yep. The most favorite to all Link players is jab canceling into grabs. Some others are Z-air approaching to grabs, N-air to grabs, and the simple-yet-hilarious running past to pivot grab.

So how effective would you say Link's grab release on Mario is?

 

[PKNintendo]

So how effective would you say Link's grab release on Mario is?

It's not real.

I said it hypothetically, since Vato and Box overate the grab releases.

 

[Judge Judy]

It's not real.

I said it hypothetically, since Vato and Box overate the grab releases.

I read the Link board's Link guide, he has some kind of grab combo on Mario according to their guide.

 

[HeroMystic]

I read the Link board's Link guide, he has some kind of grab combo on Mario according to their guide.

It's just a D-throw tech-chase. It's pretty hard to do on Mario due to his average weight and fall speed, and he can only do it at 0-10%.

It makes little difference but it's something to watch out for.

 

[hippiedude92]

I believed Link's Zair autocancels. It's his longest range attack too. It's ****.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, Z-air autocancels, and it adds onto his superb way of spacing. It's the best Z-air in the game with Samus' pretty close behind it.

 

[Kanzaki]

If Mario gets grabbed released combo'd as badly as Ness/Lucas, especially by a character that's highly used(Marth), he'd stay in low tier.


And as quoted by Mew2King himself "Shield grabbing is broken is this game". So even if it's JUST grab release, Ness/Lucas will still struggle. But it's just not grab release, they are just horrible =/


Mario's horrible too, just not AS horrible as them xD

 

[platomaker]

skyler ocon, you want a match? i play ness, you play mario, cuz im not convinced.

 

[PKNintendo]

If Mario gets grabbed released combo'd as badly as Ness/Lucas, especially by a character that's highly used(Marth), he'd stay in low tier.


And as quoted by Mew2King himself "Shield grabbing is broken is this game". So even if it's JUST grab release, Ness/Lucas will still struggle. But it's just not grab release, they are just horrible =/


Mario's horrible too, just not AS horrible as them xD

How badly? EIDI helps Ness escape Marth lame grab, and only gets him a grab release downsmash.

If M2K told you to jump off a cliff, would you? I mean come on, very little characters can grab release attack Ness, and most of them would do MORE damage if they threw you.

Lucas doesn't suffer as badly since he's animation is better than Ness. Putting him as a / for Ness is wrong.

It's your opinion if you think Ness is horrible, I don't think Mario's horrible. And Ness has better tourney results than Mario, if he was horrible.

 

[Matt07]

Ness/Lucas are IN MY OPINION good characters. It's only one match-up that can really screw them over (but if they play it smart, and EIDI out grab's it doesn't make the match-up that bad.)

Like DDD is the Marth to Ness and Lucas, our character isn't garbage because DDD has an infinite on us, why does it differ for them?

Sorry if this is coming off as bias, but am I just totally clueless about something that makes Ness/Lucas potential worse?

I'd rate Link 55:45 or even. Things can go back and forth.

 

[Kanzaki]

How badly? EIDI helps Ness escape Marth lame grab, and only gets him a grab release downsmash.

If M2K told you to jump off a cliff, would you? I mean come on, very little characters can grab release attack Ness, and most of them would do MORE damage if they threw you.

Lucas doesn't suffer as badly since he's animation is better than Ness. Putting him as a / for Ness is wrong.

It's your opinion if you think Ness is horrible, I don't think Mario's horrible. And Ness has better tourney results than Mario, if he was horrible.

EIDI helps Ness escape the grab, but leads into a tippered dsmash... Which isn't much better..

M2K is one of the best in Brawl right now... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking bout.. unlike you who dodges questions of your viability to prove your "knowledge", for all we know, you could be a pro lvl9 comp player.

 

[PKNintendo]

EIDI helps Ness escape the grab, but leads into a tippered dsmash... Which isn't much better..

M2K is one of the best in Brawl right now... so I'm sure he knows what he's talking bout.. unlike you who dodges questions of your viability to prove your "knowledge", for all we know, you could be a pro lvl9 comp player.

Lvl 8 actually, Im afraid of lvl 9. I realize M2K is the best brawl player, seen his vids e.c.t. But he isn't always 100% right. He probably meant that it's broken when compared to Melee.
Viability nothing, it's ridiculous to see you base your argument on baseless points, when you say that Ness is a terrible character.

It IS in your opinion.

PS: My good pal Ref said that Marth could not tipper downsmash Ness with EIDI.

 

[Dory]

to reinforce m2k isnt always right; he thinks olimar counters mk.... thats like waaaaaayyyy false, there are some things oli has over mk but no where enough to counter him..

 

[Matador]

I'm having trouble understanding why we're still arguing this. Neither Ness nor Mario are great characters. We can argue that Ness' grab releases hurt him, but he no longer has an infinite, and we still have one to deal with. I'm sure that we can agree that infinite >>>>> grab releases (that don't even combo into anything spectacular) so, by that logic, Mario is the worse character.

The point is, PKNintendo will never buckle and say Mario > Ness, and I doubt any Mario mains here will concede that Ness > Mario. I honestly don't know/care which is true, because we're both in the same boat. Even if one WERE better than the other, given the knowledge that we currently have, it wouldn't be marginally so; there would only be a slight advantage with that character in competitive play.

So there. I just proved this argument pointless.

 

[JayBee]

MalcomM is a great Sonic player. I've seen some of his vids and he practically toys with his opponents. He uses Sonic's running speed to his fullest.

Although, he's the only one doing this, so I don't think it'll be enough if I had to consider pushing Sonic to mid tier.

HE isn't the only one doing this, but he is the Prime Example right now, of how stupid Sonic's speed really is, and is why I look at people funny when they say sonic's play all the same, or he's just speed. he might break into mid tier and that isn't a bad spot to be in, under peach IMO.

 

[Palpi]

I'm having trouble understanding why we're still arguing this. Neither Ness nor Mario are great characters. We can argue that Ness' grab releases hurt him, but he no longer has an infinite, and we still have one to deal with. I'm sure that we can agree that infinite >>>>> grab releases (that don't even combo into anything spectacular) so, by that logic, Mario is the worse character.

The point is, PKNintendo will never buckle and say Mario > Ness, and I doubt any Mario mains here will concede that Ness > Mario. I honestly don't know/care which is true, because we're both in the same boat. Even if one WERE better than the other, given the knowledge that we currently have, it wouldn't be marginally so; there would only be a slight advantage with that character in competitive play.

So there. I just proved this argument pointless.

yay matador

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm having trouble understanding why we're still arguing this. Neither Ness nor Mario are great characters. We can argue that Ness' grab releases hurt him, but he no longer has an infinite, and we still have one to deal with. I'm sure that we can agree that infinite >>>>> grab releases (that don't even combo into anything spectacular) so, by that logic, Mario is the worse character.

The point is, PKNintendo will never buckle and say Mario > Ness, and I doubt any Mario mains here will concede that Ness > Mario. I honestly don't know/care which is true, because we're both in the same boat. Even if one WERE better than the other, given the knowledge that we currently have, it wouldn't be marginally so; there would only be a slight advantage with that character in competitive play.

So there. I just proved this argument pointless.

You are my freakin hero.

 

[Da Man]

All I want is people to admit Mario and Ness are equal. I keep mentioning that these are my 2 best mains.

 

[HeroMystic]

Biased people will never admit this.

I KNOW I won't.

 

[Dory]

Biased people will never admit this.

I KNOW I won't.

and i wont either...

and good job matador for finnaly shutting this thread up

 

[Kamikaze*]

OMGAH if the fludd squirted kool aid, one of his taunt HAS to be him eatting fried chicken. And make an alternate costume of him with a fro. Instant win right there. Got nothing on Conan o Lucas costume!

this is sig material

 

[ToxiCrow]

i've actually started using mario a few days ago. and tbh, i think he's underrated. he's one of the few characters in brawl that can actually combo real well, he lives longer when u cancel ur momentum with dair, and i think he should be a mid-tier atleast. but hey, my opinion doesnt over-ride the community's facts.
he has alot of potential and hopefully more people will realize that.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

The thing is Mario has tons of potential and the CAPE!! If the cape isn't reason enough, I'd lose all faith in the SBR's decision making.

 

[Tlmab]

I believe Mario will move up for sure, he is in botton tier because most players like to use top tiers all the time to win tournaments.

 

[andayt]

sakurai; 'you must recover' xD mario is nintendo's golden boy theres no way they'd tie him down to low for long he's moving up but slowly -_-