Dskank's D3 general strategy thread.

[dskank]

Hello folks I'm dskank,

I've been playing dedede none stop since the games release and i think smash 4's kinguin is the strongest iteration yet.
I'm making this thread to explain general dedede strat and metagame stuff, i hope this thred could be used as guide for new players or players new to dedede. i also request the mod here to sticky it when it is sufficently complete.

and to anyone else working on something like this, any help would be appreciated and i'll add your contributions from the comments to the main thread.

i will finishing filling this out over the next several days.

so without further ado...d



basic terminology


advance techniques

jab cancelling
in brawl this was done by pressing down apon finishing your jab allowing you to combo into other moves.

smash for does not have true jab cancelling as we know it, but for d3 simply inputting a second attack after he finishes his second jab is enough to achieve this effect.

so far there are three jab combos i've found useful. not all of them are true on all characters, but they all seem to be solid mix ups.

jab>jab> does solid damage

jab>jab> down tilt works, but i have yet to test it.

jab>jab> down smash IS THE TRUTH! its reminiscent of dk's jab to down smash from brawl. it allows you to actually hit down smashes without having to make the hard read.

"Jab>Jab>Grab is also a thing, and obviously when D3 gets a grab, he's doing some damage with DThrow>stuff. DThrow leads into so much..." -shaZam

note: on mid-heavey opponents like browser jab utilit and jab dsmash see to be true combos.

combos

down throw is dedede's greatest tool for racking up damage in this game.

downthrow combos into nair on most characters between 0-20%( on lighter chars it stops working closer to 15%)
-at such low percent, the nock back from nair is minimal. this means the opponent will either land right in front of you or jump away. currently i find the most common trend is that the opponent will try to hit you with an aerial immediately after you nair, this is fine, because you will land first and you will shield if the are vectoring toward you. shielding allows you to punish their attack with a second grab and another dthrow combo. if the opponent is vectoring away, you can either run up and shield to attempt another grab or space a ftilt.


nair stuff:

at low percents FF nair>utilt will combo most chars, look for this between 0-80% depending on stong/weak hit.
- keep in mind nair is a sex kick, so the weak hit has less knockback=more combos. nair is one of d3's better options for returning to the ground, it is best to use for this purpose when an opponent wiffs an attack, allowing you to punish with a fast fall nair from above.
- NEVER JONES FOR THE NAIR. only use it when the oppent is either directly below you or above you.
-nair kills around 160% in this game and, relative to d3's other kill moves, it's easy to land a hit.
-nair loses to any move with a disjointed hit box.
-utilt can potentially combo into nair at low percents, but characters with fast aerials, such as villagers nair, can break out.

gordo usage


the technical chase

edge gaurding

mind games

 

[dskank]

reserved by op

 

[grandpappy]

Great thread so far. I have some things I can add!

I agree that this D3 is looking really strong. Jab>Jab>DTilt works really well, and I have tested it out in For Glory. If you are close to an edge, this can knock them off and set them up for edge guarding which D3 is very good at. I haven't tried Jab>Jab>DSmash, but this sounds super legit.

Jab>Jab>Grab is also a thing, and obviously when D3 gets a grab, he's doing some damage with DThrow>stuff. DThrow leads into so much, and it's awesome. And so is Nair!

Nair is great for follow up's and can also set up into combos. On some heavier characters, I've gotten Nair>Grab, and at low percents on a bunch of characters I've gotten Nair>UpTilt which might be able to go into> Nair, but I'm not sure about that. Nair is tricky because of how D3's fast-fall speed is. You can mix up when you FF the Nair and catch people off guard, and it's not the worst if you wiff or if you hit shield if you can manage to land behind them. It might not be the safest thing (I've been punished for it pretty hard) but I've gotten some pretty neat stuff out of landing a Nair in neutral. I guess time will tell on that.

Are we going to talk about custom moves in here? I figure they'll probably be allowed in tourneys even though we can't use them in For Glory, so we might as well. Rising Dedede (Up 3 I think) has been really useful for me. I've been using it as an Out Of Shield option, and it seems really safe. It's fast, does 15% and has pretty good knockback. I've even killed with it a few times OOS at 120%. I think this is something we should consider.

I also think Dash Hammer might have some interesting uses with edge guarding. These are just some of my ideas. Thoughts?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

DDD's Uair is like my main Ko move, I probably get 80% of my KOs with it.

Also, I purposely whiff a short hop bair to bait my opponents in, and since it auto cancels I can either roll, spotdodge, or throw out an attack to punish.

Also I seem to be getting a lot of mileage out of his gordo side b, that move is surprisingly strong.

 

[-Jax]

Also I seem to be getting a lot of mileage out of his gordo side b, that move is surprisingly strong.

When playing For Glory I feel as if people don't realize they can just smack gordo back to me. I think its usefulness will kind of decrease once people figure that out. Though right now I'm getting a lot more value out of the move than I initially expected.

 

[dskank]

@ grandpappy good info, i didn't know about jab jab grab. ill add that and an abridged version of your nair combos to the guide. thanks for the input.

@ PandaPanda Senketsu yeah uair really is one of dededes best kill moves in sm4sh.

how do you guys feel about the organization of this thread? i'm thinking about moving jab stuff into the combo section, but most of them are mix ups rather than true combos..

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

When playing For Glory I feel as if people don't realize they can just smack gordo back to me. I think its usefulness will kind of decrease once people figure that out. Though right now I'm getting a lot more value out of the move than I initially expected.

The fact that it can be hit back is another aspect that makes it so good. In spend a lot of time throwing a gordo and baiting out attacks with it.

If your opponent doesn't know that they can hit it back, than you can be reckless with it. But if they do know then you have to use it much smarter.

Also, DDD has the wall of pain in this game.

Oh I also need some advice. when you are in the air and trying to get back down onto the stage, what aerial can you come down with? To me it seems like DDD has a hard time getting back down.

Oh yea, and can someone show me all of the things DDD can do out of dash?

 

[grandpappy]

Oh I also need some advice. when you are in the air and trying to get back down onto the stage, what aerial can you come down with? To me it seems like DDD has a hard time getting back down.

Oh yea, and can someone show me all of the things DDD can do out of dash?

I think dskank said in another thread to come down with inhale (B-reversed?) as it can beat out a lot of things and catch people by surprise. I haven't tried it, but I hope it works. Coming down is hard man. I got juggled forever by a Little Mac repeatedly using grounded UpB.

Out of dash: Grab, grab or stop dashing. I actually like to dash up and shield because people do stupid stuff when they see you running at them. You can act after releasing shield way faster in this game than in previous smash titles, so shielding is a good option a lot of the time really. Pivot FTilt is really good and so is pivot grab.

how do you guys feel about the organization of this thread? i'm thinking about moving jab stuff into the combo section, but most of them are mix ups rather than true combos..

I mean there aren't really a lot of TRUE combos anyway, but I think they can go there for now. Eventually, I feel like it would be nice to have a section that describes all of D3's moves and their uses/combos.

 

[Cook]

Is it just me or did his grab range get nerfed a bit?

 

[-Jax]

Is it just me or did his grab range get nerfed a bit?

Feels the same to me, though I haven't actually checked in-game.

To be fair, his grab range was a bit ridiculous in brawl.

The fact that it can be hit back is another aspect that makes it so good. In spend a lot of time throwing a gordo and baiting out attacks with it.

So how do you use this? Gordo -> Run after Gordo -> Wait for attack -> Roll past/jump over reflected Gordo -> Grab on their laggy animation? Or am I missing something obvious here?

Also, DDD has the wall of pain in this game.

Using his forward air? Maybe I should try to play off the stage a bit more often in this game. I just don't feel comfortable in the air anymore now that his amazing bair is gone. I should try playing around with his aerials a bit more I guess.

 

[dean.]

Is it just me or did his grab range get nerfed a bit?

it certainly feels that way.

 

[DefenseTech]

it certainly feels that way.

I agree, the range that we enjoyed in brawl has been reduced

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

So how do you use this? Gordo -> Run after Gordo -> Wait for attack -> Roll past/jump over reflected Gordo -> Grab on their laggy animation? Or am I missing something obvious here?


Using his forward air? Maybe I should try to play off the stage a bit more often in this game. I just don't feel comfortable in the air anymore now that his amazing bair is gone. I should try playing around with his aerials a bit more I guess.

I usually run up and throw a slow gordo at mid to close range, then I run up and shield to tank the gordo and my opponents attack. than I shield drop and punish. This wont work for every attack or every character, but it will usually put you in a position that will threaten your opponent.

And King DDDs wall of pain is with his fair, sooooooo godlike.

 

[sfz]

Can't seem to get much use out of his nair, what am I doing wrong?

 

[DefenseTech]

Can't seem to get much use out of his nair, what am I doing wrong?

Try using down throw to set up nair, a lot of possibilities after that depending on the opponent.

 

[Jabejazz]

Coming down is hard man. I got juggled forever by a Little Mac repeatedly using grounded UpB.

You need to make use of TripleD's stupid good fall speed and mix up your opponent with an fast falled air dodge. B-Reversed inhales "works", as in, if your opponent is not under you, which won't happen if the guy tries to juggle with you. Greninjas, Shieks will juggle you for days if you try B-reversed inhales.

As a general rule, I'd rather avoid confrontation until I hit the stage.

Can't seem to get much use out of his nair, what am I doing wrong?

Out of nothing? Generally doesn't work, but if you fast fall it, you usually get a garanteed utilt at low%

Is it just me or did his grab range get nerfed a bit?

"A bit" is an understatement.

 

[-Jax]

Has anyone found dair to be useful so far? In brawl I used to short hop it if I was anticipating a dash attack/grab, but That usage doesnt work so well anymore, especially not with the new bair around, but I could just be using it wrongly.

I also feel I'm relying too much on shielding and grabbing to punish, and it's only been succesful because of the low level players I'm finding in for glory. What are some other good options to quickly punish besides grabbing?

Sorry about all the questions here btw. They're slightly off-topic, I'll take my next ones to the Q&A thread where they belong.. :D

 

[Dooms]

I use ftilt and dtilt as punish options, but ftilt more often. Ftilt shield drop has worked well for me for little mac smashes/dash attacks that you can't really get grabs on (or I can't, at least). I think it works on his ftilt too, but I'm not 100% certain. Seems like a good punish in general, but I could be wrong.

 

[Melonfrog]

Has anyone found dair to be useful so far? In brawl I used to short hop it if I was anticipating a dash attack/grab, but That usage doesnt work so well anymore, especially not with the new bair around, but I could just be using it wrongly.

I also feel I'm relying too much on shielding and grabbing to punish, and it's only been succesful because of the low level players I'm finding in for glory. What are some other good options to quickly punish besides grabbing?

Sorry about all the questions here btw. They're slightly off-topic, I'll take my next ones to the Q&A thread where they belong.. :D

It is a Meteor Smash now, from what I used it seems easy to land.

 

[grandpappy]

Can't seem to get much use out of his nair, what am I doing wrong?

It's important to keep in mind too that D3's Nair has a much bigger hitbox above the good king than you would expect. I think the hitbox above his back might even be bigger than the one below him (but don't quote me on that). For this reason it's good when your opponent is above you/ for juggling and stuff.

 

[-Jax]

Can't seem to get much use out of his nair, what am I doing wrong?

As Jabejazz mentioned, the only real time I actually use it is if I find I'm being juggled. Dedede has such a good falling speed that players generally don't have a response to a fastfall nair. After it you can generally follow up with a utilt, but the most important thing is you're grounded again.

 

[grandpappy]

Has anybody played around with sticking a Gordo into the side of a stage near the ledge to mess with somebody's recovery? I think somebody said it still has a hitbox when it's stuck there. I think I'm gonna try this when I get home.

 

[Jabejazz]

Has anybody played around with sticking a Gordo into the side of a stage near the ledge to mess with somebody's recovery? I think somebody said it still has a hitbox when it's stuck there. I think I'm gonna try this when I get home.

It does work. Personally, I think it's too much work considering you'd do a much better job going at the guy with aerials instead.
Your offstage game is one of the best in this game, make the most of it.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Just a bunch more thoughts from playing on For Glory today...

Yeah, the gordo retains the hitbox. I find it's really difficult to intentionally stick one on there, so I haven't been working that into my game...it seems like a good coverage option, but it's easiest to do from off stage when you're opponent is trying to recover. When in that position, you might as well go for the edge guard.

However, I've managed to do it once from one stage I believe, when holding up on the stick. I'll have to play around to find the proper positioning.

Dair is really good in this game. It probably has less utility than the old one, and I definitely wish the hitbox on the hammer lingered a bit, but having access to a usable meteor smash is really nice for a character with a strong off stage presence. And I was able to stage spike a kirby earlier by hitting with the sourspot, so even that has its uses.

Once down throw -> nair stops working, you can usually still follow up on a throw by using your fair instead. I've been able to follow up from nair with a dtilt, though that's far from guaranteed I believe. Speaking of which, dtilt is an interesting move...it seems to catch people off guard and I've been able to bump people coming back from the ledge with it.

Bair is good, but no where near as useful as the old one. It's another case where I wish the hitbox lingered out just a bit longer than it does. That said, it's still a viable option, if a slightly more situational one now.

I've experimented a bit with punishing poorly spaced smashes and landing on stage with inhale today. You won't be getting much out of an inhale, but the positional advantage is nice. You can turn around and spit them out off stage, for example, or even just disrupt their plans with it. Not something I'll be using that often, but it's another tool to keep in mind.

I haven't played around with any of his specials yet. To be honest, I'm happy with D3 as he is, but I might look into the Dash Hammer. I really like the little boost he has on hammer in PM, so it's thrown off my spacing a bit with it in this game. Speaking of jet hammer though, that's another move good for punishing poor spacing/baiting out people on the ledge. If you can bait out an attack and move yourself just out of range, it's pretty strong when you land it. I've also managed to hit someone who was hanging on the ledge with it. IMO, it seems like it's best used when they're on the ledge or coming back on stage, if you don't mind waiting on the damage and playing patiently. Which I'm not the most patient penguin player in the world, unfortunately.

 

[iiGGYxD]

Just in case no one knows, i just found this out over this last weekend..When a gordo is hit back at you, you can pick it back up and hit it using DDD's side b again. It creates a pretty funny "ping pong" interaction to see who messes up first between you and your opponent x). just thought i'd throw this lil tid-bit here .-.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

^that is actually really nice to know. I have to experiment with that.

 

[WingedKnight]

The ping-ponging of the Gordos is neat, but I find it rarely happens in the wild. The real problem when Gordos get returned to you is it's usually too quick to react. The move is exceptional though, I really underestimated it. You can't come at it with a Waddle Dee mentality and throw them out all the time. They are a risky, handle-with-care tool, but the possibilities are awesome. They make a good follow-up to Down Throw (still our best, just now for combos instead of chains) at very low percentages, are great for punishing, and make an excellent edgeguard. When I'm recovering from a high diagonal and need to cover Dedede's soft underbelly, tossing one at the stage can throw enemies off-guard.

Also, angling up/back and having them bounce in place makes a GREAT cover for approaches and moves, plus it really psychs out opponents. Works like a land mine: they try to handle your moves and can get smacked around by the Gordo. Even though people now understand the mechanics of Gordos and what to do with them, they are still dangerous and outright scary. Lots of people lose their cool, and if you bounce them right or really let them rip with a forward angle it can catch them unprepared. A good Dedede will always know exactly where each Gordo is going, but the opponent is left plaiying a dangerous guessing game. I love it.

Down Throw is just perfect. It changed but works wonders all the same. NAir and Fair are great follow ups, and Up Smash can also punish the air dodge on folks expecting one of those. Our grab range ain't what it used to be, though...

I really miss our old BAir, but the new one is still a great asset. If we'd never had that divine attack we'd probably consider Sm4sh's BAir pretty sweet, but we know what we lost.

The DAir spike is soooo satisfying. I love the sound it makes, it's fairly easy to land and powerful. Adds another fantastic option to Dedede's already stellar edgeguarding toolkit.

DTilt is fun, rolling across the stage all sexy like. Allows for some nice follow and approach options.

Also thankful for ledgesnapping Up-B. Recovery is so much safer now, and when you do have to land onstage the faster fall is nice.

Overall, I am very happy with this version of Dedede. My initial doubts when I saw the changes have been dispelled. Did some For Glory play tonight. We've got to be careful with those speedy characters like Sheik, I got knocked around a lot and barely won using Gordo play and careful grab follow ups. Needles and Grenades are rough, and we're so big we get combo'd easy. Yoshi was an interesting battle also. I can't believe how much better he seems. Egg Toss can ruin our day, but we've got options against him. I used lots of FTilt, danced around his Egg Roll for grabs, and edgeguarded hard.

 

[sfz]

I how the character forums all say "we." Just saying. Starting to use nair more, with a fastfall it is very good if your opponent is in the right place. Trying out combos and ideas from you guys is awesome.

thoughts on Gordos: You're playing with fire! It's ridiculously easy to get them smacked back at you. If they are returned, can you ping pong them back with any move, or just side b? All the same, I might overuse them. When they hit, it's fantastic.

The only Specials I have unlocked are Up 2, Rising Dedede and Neutral 2... Which I can't remember the name of, but turns our Inhale into a (Darude) sandstorm. I think I prefer them both to the default. It's a lot easier to hit someone with Rising Dedede since they don't have forever to dodge. And I think it still goes as high as our default up special too. As for Sandstorm Inhale, the wind blows opponents surprisingly far. Might not be a KO move, but it gets foes away from you. Also makes it hard to approach you from the ground, since you can hold it indefinitely. Hoping to do more Smash Run tomorrow to get more customs.

 

[Wingul]

- At higher percents, weak hit nair combos into bair. Really good kill setup.
- You can use the super armor from Up-B as an easy Ness gimp

 

[allshort17]

Does anyone know if you can cancel lag by returning Gordos with side-b, akin to Link's boomerang cancel?

 

[MasterOfGalaxies]

I've falled in love with D3's ftilt. It's the best thing since sliced bread imo. If spaced properly, I'm pretty sure it's safe on shield, lasts long enough to punish spotdodges and rolls, and is a massive disjoint. My entire ground game has become ftilt pokes/retreating reversals, grabs/pivot grabs, and the occasional jab mixup.

 

[Palmerfan]

I've been using roll behind enemy -> dsmash as a kill setup in for glory and it's working pretty well. The spacing for it to be safe is a little bit tricky, but the risk is definitely worth the reward. If they roll forward, it just resets the situation, and if they try to roll back when you roll, the dsmash catches them when they're out of invincibility frames.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

How do ya'll feel about Gordos as a tech chase/wakeup option? Pretty good for setting up mixup situations, in my experience (provided they don't mash and fling the Gordo right back at you).

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

I've been using roll behind enemy -> dsmash as a kill setup in for glory and it's working pretty well.

Not to burst your bubble, but this doesn't work against people with a brain. In fact, your downsmash is punishable that way. I understand roll spamming is a common thing in For Glory, but it really is a bad habit that can be punished heavily.

How do ya'll feel about Gordos as a tech chase/wakeup option? Pretty good for setting up mixup situations, in my experience (provided they don't mash and fling the Gordo right back at you).

Smooth Criminal

A grab is a better tech chase option. Gordos require both a hard read and great precision to actually tech chase with. And is also generally less damage.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So what matchups have been giving you guys trouble? I know this isn't really a matchup thread, but a general strategy thread seems like a good place to talk about this stuff.

I was originally a bit worried about Pac-man, because he has a superior projectile, really good disjoints, and this incredibly awkward grab, not to mention an amazing side special, but I'm starting to think we just have to play a lot more patiently. He isn't so good and is more just annoying to deal with, so we need to properly deal with his moves. Pac's side special is easy to punish at close range, at long ranges you likely won't reach him in time to knock him out of it, so I'd either shield the incoming attack or back out of the way. His side special has super armor once he reaches the power pellet so there's not much you can do to actually attack him until after the move ends.

I have to wonder about ZSS though. I've only played a couple, and really only one decent ZSS, but she seems like an incredibly safe character to me. She out mobilizes D3, paralyzer can bump back Gordos (seriously, this move should be knockback based...) and a lot of her stuff seems safe on block. She also has really good range and out speeds most of our moves. I feel like edge-guarding her is going to be a problem also, she has a lot more recovery options in this game.

But I dunno I'm pretty scrubby so I'm probably just playing bad in this matchup.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

A grab is a better tech chase option. Gordos require both a hard read and great precision to actually tech chase with. And is also generally less damage.

Fair enough, but it feels like throws don't lead to much. You'll be lucky to squeeze in a follow-up at higher percentages. It's like resetting the whole situation back to neutral.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Fair enough, but it feels like throws don't lead to much. You'll be lucky to squeeze in a follow-up at higher percentages. It's like resetting the whole situation back to neutral.

Smooth Criminal

Depending on the character and his vectoring, you can land a fair or two after a down throw.
Hell, some even allow a UAir, and that's sometimes enough for a kill.

Or you can simply bThrow/fThrow the character off stage if he happens to be near a ledge. This is basically your game plan as TripleD, as your off-stage game is absolutely stellar.

Granted, landing a gordo would probably send him off stage as well, but that's assuming you land that gordo in the first place.

ZSS OP pls nerf

She's arguably one of our worst matchups so far.

Inhale and FTilts are rarely useful.
Can't really camp her, and her air game is better than ours, so it's really about rushing her down on the ground. Luckily for us, shielding out of a dash in this game is OP, so you can run at her, and shield her gun shots when necessary.

Shielding her shots at close range usually provoke some reaction from her; most likely she'll run up and grab. Spotdodge and counter-grab.

Sometimes she'll jump over you toward the other end of the stage and repeat ad vitam eternam. Also punishable.

She's easy to edge guard if she recovers high, from my experience. If she recovers low, limit her options with a well thrown gordo and fair/bair/dair at her.

That's the few things I managed to gather from a ZSS that started 2-stocking me, ending up even against her.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Depending on the character and his vectoring, you can land a fair or two after a down throw.
Hell, some even allow a UAir, and that's sometimes enough for a kill.

Or you can simply bThrow/fThrow the character off stage if he happens to be near a ledge. This is basically your game plan as TripleD, as your off-stage game is absolutely stellar.

Granted, landing a gordo would probably send him off stage as well, but that's assuming you land that gordo in the first place.

I was just kinda probing for some thoughts on Gordo usage as oki, but this stuff is good to know. I don't dthrow enough it seems, haha. I had an inkling of it but I don't do it nearly half as much as I should. Still very much in the stage of learning the character thoroughly and not optimally.

learning that as well as general Brawl tech and Brawl-like neutral, but I digress

Smooth Criminal

 

[WingedKnight]

I can't get over DThrow to BAir. It's so much more powerful and safer than the FAir follow up and it works to higher percentages. Pivot and dash-cancelled FTilts are so good in this game, too.

ZSS is unsurprisingly a real challenge for us. Projectile abusers limit our Gordo possibilities and threaten our large frame, so I find myself doing a lot of shield-grabbing, approaching with aerials, and looking for opportunities to get them offstage. We have so many options offstage, just look out for recoveries like Zamus and her rising kick business.

I really need to work on rolling less. It's a faster way for Dedede to get around but it's so punishable. How do you guys manage?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

She's arguably one of our worst matchups so far.

Well I was a bit worried about that, I should probably look into those things you've mentioned. Or work on a pocket character.

Dthrow > Bair seems good as mentioned, though it doesn't seem to work on a fresh stock, at least not when beating up on the CPU in training. I would probably start with dthrow > nair and transition into bair at slightly higher percents.

The main thing that I'm trying to work on is buffering the turn around and then actually doing the bair. I feel like this would be easier with a c-stick for the bair. And easier without having to use the circle pad in general. Can't wait till we have Wii U smash bros, and proper controllers.