Dual Stick Mechanics and how it affects Grab Breaking, Momentum Cancelling, and SDI

[NickRiddle]

My brain exploded.

 

[DeLux]

Don't worry, a video is coming soon courtesy of Bionic.

It needs some minor edits and Director release approval. It would go out faster if I weren't feeling like I'm on the verge of dying with some sort of flu bug. But because of that I apologize for the wait

 

[Isatis]

and done.

[yt]HKVWkbSMTvI[/yt]

 

[Ponyboy]

Will there be a video explaining In Shield SDI and Option-Selects? it is kind of confusing atleast for me. Other than that thank you all so much for the smash labs contents I really appreciate it and i am sure hundreds of others do as well .

 

[Flayl]

Again I love how there's no C-stick for the quarter circle and half circle explanations - if you use those you're not allowed to touch the c-stick!

 

[DeLux]

In the video, it clearly states that in order to adequately incorporate a comparative level of inputs over an extended frame period, it requires the user to coordinate taps in multiple different directions with the cstick as one QCDI's so as to not input the cstick in the same direction as the control stick so it crosses the cardinal direction threshold for the game to register an additional SDI input.

We just simplified that concept in explanation because it's a video.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Let's see some more demonstrations.

 

[MikeKirby]

Wow, this read really gave me insight!

By the way,

Ok, so I found this really easy and fast way to grab break. First of off, you need set your d-pad to anything that helps you grab break. I set mines to shield and jump. When you get grabbed all you gotta do is use your index finger to hold the control stick in a direction like down, then start rotating the d-pad with your thumb and rapidly hit the c-stick with your other thumb. The direction you're hitting the c-stick must be different than the direction you're holding the control stick. This alone will break out of grabs almost instantly. You don't even need to rotate the control stick, just holding it makes hitting the c-stick count as 3 inputs every time. Doing this method also leaves a lot of your fingers free to hit other buttons like L+R and the face buttons to break out even faster!

This is really effective against the IC's and Olimar! Makes it really hard for IC's to cg at lower percents and makes it impossible for Olimar to throw after a grab at low percents. TRY THIS!!!

Here is the quote for the fast grab breaking mechanics. You guys forgot to say that the D-pad had to be set to an action button.

 

[wendell]

so,how can i get out from fox dair with this?

 

[PZ]

You should be able get out regularly with SDI....

 

[Ghostbone]

Fox can still combo out of his dair even if you SDI.
You can just like, force him to choose different options.

 

[Conviction]

Best bet is to SDI the opposite direction he is going and hope he doesn't drift back in direction you sdi or fastfall the dair so you have less hits to SDI.

 

[Luigi player]

Will there be a video explaining In Shield SDI and Option-Selects? it is kind of confusing atleast for me. Other than that thank you all so much for the smash labs contents I really appreciate it and i am sure hundreds of others do as well .

this

 

[B.A.M.]

Theres probably not going to be a video for this by Apex. Just try it out with a friend. if you happen to be in shield stun ull grab; if not you roll. If you have any question on some practical applications PM myself or Delux. If your character has a frame trap compendium made by me as well then you can go ahead and look through as they should be listed.

 

[Mike2]

Already starting to use this. My cstick mash speed just needs to improve.

Also has anyone consistently learned to:
shield SDI --> shield grab(using the option select) something you normally wouldn't have been able to?

I haven't worked shield sdi into my playing yet.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is there a list of which direction to SDI for various multi-hit moves? Because it'd be really nice to reliably escape stuff like Diddy Kong's F-smash.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also has anyone consistently learned to:
shield SDI --> shield grab(using the option select) something you normally wouldn't have been able to?

I only really purposely use it when grabbing Jigglypuff out of her neutral-b with Falcon. (lol)

Most of the time you can't react fast enough to SDI in shield though so I don't use it often.

@Nicholas1024
Well for Diddy's f-smash I believe you SDI up.

 

[DeLux]

I always uses inputs for shield DI when I shield grab, without exception

 

[Mr. Doom]

Fox can still combo out of his dair even if you SDI.
You can just like, force him to choose different options.

I beg to differ.

 

[Ghostbone]

I always uses inputs for shield DI when I shield grab, without exception

This can't be true.
Inputs for shield SDI roll when you're not in shield stun do they not? I find it hard to believe you never shield grab in any situation apart from after being hit.

I beg to differ.

Do you now >.>
/yea I've seen that video with you vs a fox

If the fox lands earlier in the dair than it should still be able to combo, I know it's like that in Melee.

 

[DeLux]

Depending on spacing, I'll either use the single SDI input method via holding forward and up on cstick while in shield to guarantee a grab coming out.
If I'm spaced to where I feel I need more than one SDI input, I'll tap forward and tap up on cstick.
Certain IC specific situations, as a safety precaution I'll hold forward on control stick and tap cstick back for conditioning if they don't hit my shield, a grab if they do.

Believe or not, I committed to a custom control scheme that allows me to abuse the dual stick mechanics as efficiently as possible back in January or February when it was first being discussed among labbies.

 

[Ishiey]

What's this custom control scheme, if you don't mind me asking?

Also, if you tap up-right as opposed to just right, do you move one unit up and one unit right, or .71 units up and .71 units right? Basically, do you move a greater net distance with diagonals, or is it always the same distance from your original point?

Any word on the d-pad thing yet btw?

 

[Ghostbone]

Depending on spacing, I'll either use the single SDI input method via holding forward and up on cstick while in shield to guarantee a grab coming out.
If I'm spaced to where I feel I need more than one SDI input, I'll tap forward and tap up on cstick.
Certain IC specific situations, as a safety precaution I'll hold forward on control stick and tap cstick back for conditioning if they don't hit my shield, a grab if they do.

Believe or not, I committed to a custom control scheme that allows me to abuse the dual stick mechanics as efficiently as possible back in January or February when it was first being discussed among labbies.

Hmmm ok, seems legit.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wow, and here i thought i knew everything about the game...

Im glad this came out before Apex.

People are about to see/do/experience things they never thought possible at this tourney.

I need to get in the lab and practice up.

 

[teluoborg]

I've been practicing something for a moment and after thinking about how it works it looks like I have found another application for dual sticking : frame 1 continuous dash.

DISCLAIMER : I don't have frame advance mode so all of the numbers below are purely theory taken from this thread and applied to what happens in practice.

You know how you can Platform Cancel and dash immediately from it by simply holding down forward :stick3: and pressing up stick8: ?

Well seems like you can do it out of any grounded action, from the cooldown of a smash to a soft landing lag.
All you have to do is, when in a buffer window (the last 10 frames of a move) hold forward/back on the analog and press the C stick in any other direction at the very last frame of the window.

So for example hold :stick6: and press stick8: on the very last frame of lag and you'll have a continuous dash that comes out on frame 1 thanks to the combination of dual stick mechanics (C stick and analog inputs read on back to back frames) and buffering mechanics (forward overwriting any buffered input).

For now I haven't found any extended use but I find this input easier than the classical way to buffer a continuous dash.

 

[Blacknight99923]

this thread is amazing.

 

[DeLux]

I've been practicing something for a moment and after thinking about how it works it looks like I have found another application for dual sticking : frame 1 continuous dash.

DISCLAIMER : I don't have frame advance mode so all of the numbers below are purely theory taken from this thread and applied to what happens in practice.

You know how you can Platform Cancel and dash immediately from it by simply holding down forward :stick3: and pressing up stick8: ?

Well seems like you can do it out of any grounded action, from the cooldown of a smash to a soft landing lag.
All you have to do is, when in a buffer window (the last 10 frames of a move) hold forward/back on the analog and press the C stick in any other direction at the very last frame of the window.

So for example hold :stick6: and press stick8: on the very last frame of lag and you'll have a continuous dash that comes out on frame 1 thanks to the combination of dual stick mechanics (C stick and analog inputs read on back to back frames) and buffering mechanics (forward overwriting any buffered input).

For now I haven't found any extended use but I find this input easier than the classical way to buffer a continuous dash.

I actually briefly wrote about this phenomenon in the DDD Boards social as a way to create an easier input version of the Buffered Reverse infinite.

However, I think you augment what you're saying to simply have to buffer the dual stick input while holding the attack button. That way the Cstick input doesn't necessarily have to be on the last frame of the buffer window.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im pretty sure you can buffer a continuous dash without the c stick.

unless that works in both directions, since I know you cant buffer a run in the opposite direction that you are facing.

 

[teluoborg]

You can buffer a run in the opposite direction, you just have to hold the analog 2 frames instead of 1 (cf Yikarur somewhere). And buffering a continuous dash needs you to flick the analog once to buffer a dash, let it come back to neutral and hold it in the same direction once the dash has started. It's personnal but I prefer this input.
And this technique works in both directions.

@Lux : thanks for the advice I'll try it.

 

[Orion dura]

lol,my cousins quit playing brawl cuz it's so complex to their nooby minds.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

So that means that the perfect grab mashing should be something like
1-hold the analog in a direction
2-tap repeatedly the C stick in another direction
3-mash other buttons while you return the C stick to neutral

Is it good or am I missing something ?

Just double checking is this the ideal method of grab breaking or is there more that must be done?

 

[da K.I.D.]

also change your d pad to actual inputs and mash that at the same time.

 

[DeLux]

What's this custom control scheme, if you don't mind me asking?

I didn't notice this until just now.

A - Jump
B - Special
C - Smash
D - Taunts (because I play ICs so I don't really care about Kpriming it)
L - Shield
R - Attack
X - Attack
Y - Grab
Z - Jump


What this essentially does is it assigns the primary functions that you'd have to input to fingers that aren't mutually exclusive to the cstick or worst case scenario that are closest to the cstick (B for Special). That being the cast, I generally have my thumb already on Cstick or hovering next to it or between the B button. This honestly helps necessitate the tap up on cstick while holding direction to grab mentality to make sure I always ISSDI my grabs.

It also streamlines inputs in terms of spacing aerials, tripless charging fsmashes, doing IPG's and IBPG's, and working out of shield with jump cancelling my shield to attack or special options. There's a reason why my desync IC game is considered the flashiest, and it's not because I'm technically gifted. I can just input buttons faster than people because I stopped playing Melee and started playing Brawl.

 

[Ghostbone]

That's weirder than my control scheme :O

 

[whAmm3y]

Gonna have to try this stuff out :D

 

[B.A.M.]

Delux hitting them with that knowledge they werent ready for lol. Theres still more to be seen in this game man. Smash Labs going in.

 

[highfive]

Interesting read. I always chose the Tap method over anything else. It's nice to see this type of effort and it's results.

Ten internets for you my good sir.

 

[Ghostbone]

So I was trying out the dash buffering method mentioned on the previous page today.

Seems like it would be really useful for follow-ups and stuff, just to give your opponent even less time to avoid your moves, and to frame trap them. (like out of MK's d-throw for example)
Plus it helps a lot with dashing chain-grabs like D3's on light-ish characters as normally you'd have to be close to frame perfect with the dash. (at least if you're not buffering it the traditional way, but I find the new way easier after doing it a couple of times)

 

[Jdietz43]

This thread is a wealth of knowledge for mid-low level players like me. Super thanks! (especially since I'm looking to branch into D3)

Keep this stuff up Smash Researchers! We don't all have the means to do these kinds of experiments for ourselves as easily, so we really appreciate it.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

This thread is a wealth of knowledge for mid-low level players like me. Super thanks! (especially since I'm looking to branch into D3)

Keep this stuff up Smash Researchers! We don't all have the means to do these kinds of experiments for ourselves as easily, so we really appreciate it.

why did you change your message to no longer ask about how to platform cancel? others such as myself would also like to know this as well. could someone at least direct us to the correct thread for this?