Elemental attacks have different effects on certain Pokemon?

[Endless Nightmares]

I noticed this while in t!mmy's character weight classes thread. SuperDoodleMan pointed out something very interesting about elemental attacks affecting PT's pokemon:

No offense, but horizontal kill power is way more accurate for figuring out weight. I've taken the liberty of using that japanese scan at brawlcentral, which used Mario's f-smash from the center of FD, and reorganized them within the weight tiers. Secret characters, having been omitted from the scan's test, are placed at the end of each tier, since it's unknown (but relatively easily found out) where they really rank within that tier.

Very Heavy (18%)
Bowser (Koopa)
Donkey Kong
Dedede, King

Heavy (17%)
Samus
Charizard

Ganondorf
Snake

Medium-Heavy (16%)
Yoshi
Wario
Ike
Link

R.O.B.
Captain Falcon
Wolf

Medium (15%)
Mario

Lucario
Luigi
Ivysaur
Sonic

Medium-Light (14%)
Ice Climber
Pit
Lucas
Diddy Kong
Peach

Toon Link
Ness

Light-Weight (13%)
Zelda
Olimar
Sheik

Marth

Very Light-Weight (12%)
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Pikachu
Meta Knight
Fox

Falco
Squirtle

Feather-Weight (11% or less)
(11%) Mr. Game & Watch
( 9% ) Jigglypuff (Purin)

As you may have noticed, Squirtle and Ivysaur's placings are considered unknown. That's because the brawlcentral scan listed them two tiers heavier and three tiers lighter, respectively, than t!MmY's list. Obviously their experiment was tainted by using an elemental attack, which Squirtle and Ivysaur react to differently.

The elemental attack being Mario's fsmash (fire). IIRC (I haven't played Pokemon since '99 >_>), in Pokemon Water counters Fire and Fire counters Grass, which is why Squirtle didn't fly as far and Ivysaur flew much farther.

I wonder if there are more elemental attack effects or if it's just the pokemon? Perhaps some characters could have an advantage over others based on the element type of their moves? Especially within the three of PT's Pokemon, as Fire > Grass > Water > Fire > Grass etc. (PT dittos are gonna be hell)

Someone who has Brawl should test this out! Maybe we can get a little research going and learn more about this

EDIT: I found a Pokemon Battle chart to give people ideas on things to experiment with:

EDIT: For anyone who wants to try, I'd suggest going to training mode since the stale-move negation doesn't exist there.

 

[Emir Kirena]

The real reason I didn't specify it is.... well I actually have no idea if it does or not!

Basically all I did was check if Thunder (Pika's Down+B) and Fireballs (Mario B) did set damage, and they always did the same damage on all 3 Pokemon.

Although there was some talk about How Elements actually come into play... People were saying that in a Magazine of Famitsu they listed Ivysaur being LIGHTER than Squirtle, but that was because in their tests they tested with Mario F-Smash (which is Fire... Ivysaur is weak to that) when in actuality Ivysaur has been proven to be heavier than Squirtle.

I guess I'll go test it out right now

This was the reply I got back. I asked him to post in this topic so he should post here. It looks like there was a lot of merit to your idea.


EDIT:


It looks like you may have been right on the money. Card is working on it right now in his Analysis topic. Look at the end of his topic. I guess I was wrong on GameFAQs. Sorry about wasting your time over there.

 

[Card]

Ok umm... I posted it in my thread but I suppose I'll post it here too and eventually add it to my guide once it becomes crystal clear.


Well I tried it out and... euh
It seems like Elemental Weakness actually DOES come into play with Knockback.

Pokemon Type Charting:
Squirtle (Water)
2x: Grass, Electric
1x: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Psychic, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Steel, Fire, Water, Ice

Ivysaur (Grass / Poison)
2x: Flying, Fire, Psychic, Ice
1x: Normal, Poison, Ground, Rock, Bug, Ghost, Steel, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Water, Electric
1/4x: Grass

Charizard (Fire / Flying)
4x: Rock
2x: Water, Electric
1x: Normal, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Psychic, Ice, Dragon, Dark
1/2x: Fighting, Steel, Fire
1/4x: Bug, Grass
Immune: Ground



Here is some of test data;
Fire Test 1:
275% Squirtle + PK Fire (Lucas) = Squirtle Survives
275% Ivysaur + PK Fire (Lucas) = Ivysaur Dies
275% Charizard + PK Fire (Lucas) = Charizard Survives (But is that because he is heavy or because he is resistant?)
Results: Ivysaur dies quicker than Squirtle, even though he is heavier. Charizard survives, but unsure whether it is because he is the heaviest or because he is resistant.

Fire Test 2:
100% Squirtle + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Squirtle Survive
100% Ivysaur + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Ivysaur Death
100% Charizard + Mario Uncharged F-Smash Sweetspot (Fire) = Charizard Survive
Results: Ivysaur seems to gain more knockback due to fire, and once again we cannot tell if Charizard survives because of his weight or his resistance.

Fire Test 3:
115% Squirtle + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Survive
115% Ivysaur + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Death
115% Charizard + Olimar Red Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur dies before Squirtle to a fire based attack.

Water Test 1:
100% Squirtle + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Squirtle is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Ivysaur + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Ivysaur is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
100% Charizard + Full-Charge F.L.U.D.D = Charizard is pushed from center to edge of Final Destination
Results: No one is weak/resistant to Water, they all get pushed the same distance.

Water Test 2:
90% Squirtle + Squirtle Up-Smash = Squirtle Death
90% Ivysaur + Squirtle Up-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
90% Charizard + Squirtle Up-Smash = Charizard Death
Results: Now things are getting interesting. Charizard dies to a Water based attack and Ivysaur survives. It looks like Charizard does get more knockback by water-based attacks.

Electricity Test 1:
145% Squirtle + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Squirtle Death
145% Ivysaur + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Ivysaur barely survive
145% Charizard + Pikachu Thunder (while standing on platform below) = Charizard barely survive
Results: Once again, Squirtle does die quicker but is that not because he is lighter? Inconclusive

Electricity Test 2:
130% Squirtle + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Squirtle Death
130% Ivysaur + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Ivysaur Survive
130% Charizard + Olimar Yellow Pikmin (Flower) F-Smash = Charizard Survive
Results: Squirtle dies the fastest, but once again is that because he is the lightest?

Ice Test 1:
180% Squirtle + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Squirtle Death
180% Ivysaur + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Ivysaur Survive
180% Charizard + PK Freeze (Full Charge) = Charizard Survive
Results: What the heck? Ivysaur is supposed to be weak to ICE, yet Squirtle dies first.

Psychic Test 1
115% Squirtle + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Squirtle Death
115% Ivysaur + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Ivysaur Survive
115% Charizard + Ness B-Throw (Psychic Throw) = Charizard Survive
Results: Once again, Ivysaur who should be weak to Psychic based attacks survives before Squirtle.


I guess I could try some more tests... got any suggestions?

 

[Emir Kirena]

Would Zelda's Lightning Kicks count as Magic or Lightning for Pokemon effects? Or is that move just simply too powerful to test accurately?

 

[shortwanabelaker]

try couter picking.. PT vs PT diff attacks

squirtle vs. ivysaur
ivysaur vs. charizard
charizard vs. squirtle

 

[shortwanabelaker]

**** internets being ******** lol

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I guess I could try some more tests... got any suggestions?

For Pokemon that seem inconclusive because of their weight, maybe you could try the same attacks on other characters who are the same weight. (according to t!mmy's measurements)

Charizard is the same weight as:
-Samus
-Ganondorf
-Snake

Ivysaur is the same weight as:
-Mario
-Lucario
-Luigi
-Sonic

Squirtle is the same weight as:
-Zero Suit Samus
-Kirby
-Pikachu
-Meta Knight
-Fox
-Falco

Thank you for doing this! The results are very interesting

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Throws might not be count as a "psychic" attack. Try PK Flash or one of Lucario's (or is that dark?)

How about Ivysaur's up-smash? That's probably grass type.

 

[Zook]

Guys, I doubt Sakurai went beyond the whole Fire/Water/Electric weaknessess. If he did follow the chart completely, Charizard would be immune to Ground moves (Earthquakes and the likes) and take less damage from regular fighting moves. Same with Ivysaur.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

Well, let's not forget the stickers in SSE. The attacks clearly have elements, so when we get the translated stickers, we'll be able to ascertain which attacks have which elements.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Well, let's not forget the stickers in SSE. The attacks clearly have elements, so when we get the translated stickers, we'll be able to ascertain which attacks have which elements.

Great point! I totally forgot about that

 

[Proven]

Ice and Psychic tests (I don't actually think Psychic is a 'type' in this game) seem the most inconclusive right now, as the only high knockback ice attack is PK Freeze. Since Squirtle is already a lightweight, meh. Testing anything that should only have an effect on Squirtle will end up being hard to do as well.

If I had to guess, Flying is also not a "type". If it is, then I'd hazard that Metaknight and Pit may also be on this typing. And if so, then you have to wonder if all the characters have a typing (although I'd think the majority would just be normal with elemental attacks).

Looking again, I wonder where I was going about Ice being inconclusive, as it just seems more than likely that he didn't make it a weakness, and it shows up very rare in Brawl anyway (only one high knockback move from Lucas). Electric may have fallen to this as well, and whether or not that's true you'll still need to do a Grass test with Ivysaur. Vine Whip is the best candidate in my opinion for this.

 

[ama(m/t)]

It seems to me like only the Pokemon trainer's elements (fire, water, and grass) and Pikachu's element were taken into effect in the case of any possible elemental weaknesses.

If you want to test, Metaknight's tornado might be FLYING type, but I really doubt that it would have a difference, especially considering its knockback.

To eliminate the variable of Pokemon weight, I would take a neutral attack that kills off the top, say, Mario's utilt, and see which percent it kills each Pokemon at. Then, keeping those percents for each Pokemon, retest grass, fire, water, and electricity.
This reduces the effect the weight variable has on the attack because the percentages would have been adjusted to account for each Pokemon's weight using a neutral attack.

Cause theoretically, at those same percents, an elemental attack would have the exact same knockback for each Pokemon. If it doesn't, then you've found a lead.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Charizard is weak against electric attacks. so why didn't pikachu kill it... I think weight had something to do with it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

umm... PT isn't a secret character... why are you placing him witht eh secret chars?

also... ivysaur and squirly are just about the same weight.

 

[ama(m/t)]

Oh yeah, I guess I overlooked that electricity had normal element results.
I think only fire and water have effect, judging from the first test.
More testing is required, of course, to make sure.
Also, what would a leaf attack be? Ivysaur's up smash?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

also... charazard seems deceptively lightweight... I mean, he's certainly the heaviest poke.... but he's still not really really heavy... at least, in my experience, he seems to get KOd at roughly the same damages as zelda

 

[ama(m/t)]

please reference tests that other people have done regarding character weight before throwing out your own ideas

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

please reference tests that other people have done regarding character weight before throwing out your own ideas

umm... why?

they aren't ideas... I'm honestly saying that, in the time I've played the game, he dies easy. A lot of early deaths are attributed to his gimpable recovery... but he honestly isn't incredibly heavy either.

 

[Ken34]

anyone try just shooting mario's fireballs at all three pokemon and recording the results?

 

[NeoHippie41]

anyone try just shooting mario's fireballs at all three pokemon and recording the results?

Doesn't look like it so far. That would seem to be the easiest test. Start each Pokemon at 0% and see what damage they take from the Fireball.

 

[Pacness]

try out stronger electric attacks to see if charizard dies before ivsaur

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

pikmin would make nice tests

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Doesn't look like it so far. That would seem to be the easiest test. Start each Pokemon at 0% and see what damage they take from the Fireball.

I don't think damage changes, just knockback

 

[Card]

Doesn't look like it so far. That would seem to be the easiest test. Start each Pokemon at 0% and see what damage they take from the Fireball.

Fireball damage doesn't increase.
For that matter, all elemental attacks do the SAME damage to everyone. It's just the Knock-Back Trajectories which is affected.

 

[Wizard99]

Interesting I wanna see a skilled PKMN Trainer vs a skilled Olimar...

 

[Aevin]

Are we certain Electrical attacks don't contribute?

I suddenly recall a case where I killed a Charizard off the top of Delfino Plaza at 60% damage with Ness's PK Thunder blast recovery. My friend threw a fit because Charizard's supposed to be heavy. I didn't remember the move being that powerful, so I was pretty surprised.

Seems like enough characters have electrical attacks that it would be odd for them not to factor them in. I can totally understand Ice attacks not counting, since there are so few.

Just curious how much havoc my boys can cause with their PK abilities.

EDIT: While it goes against my above experience, I bet anything that Thunder affects Squirtle more, but not Charizard because they failed to consider his "Flying" type. If you consider that, then the tests do support Electricity having an effect. They probably count Charizard as a straight Fire type to keep things simple. The best tests would be with characters in the same weight class as each pokemon but who do not have their elemental weaknesses.

 

[squiser]

The best tests would be with characters in the same weight class as each pokemon but who do not have their elemental weaknesses.

Agreed...if weight classes are defined - like Charizard weighs exactly the same or a very similar weight to Ganondorf or whoever - this test would answer a lot of questions.

I said it in Card's thread, but I'll say it again quickly here. I don't think the game developers would see PT as a character that would need to be nerfed by increased knockback. It seems more likely that each pokemon resists the type instead. Squirtle would not be sent as far by Fire, and maybe Water moves, etc. Ivysaur would then be sent just as far as any character her weight by a Fire move, and Squirtle not as far as a character in his weight class. It would still account for knockback differential we've seen, and makes more sense in my opinion.

Just putting it out there... this all doesn't seem too hard to test, as long as we find other characters with really similar weights to the Pokemon.

 

[Versatile818]

Agreed...if weight classes are defined - like Charizard weighs exactly the same or a very similar weight to Ganondorf or whoever - this test would answer a lot of questions.

I said it in Card's thread, but I'll say it again quickly here. I don't think the game developers would see PT as a character that would need to be nerfed by increased knockback. It seems more likely that each pokemon resists the type instead. Squirtle would not be sent as far by Fire, and maybe Water moves, etc. Ivysaur would then be sent just as far as any character her weight by a Fire move, and Squirtle not as far as a character in his weight class. It would still account for knockback differential we've seen, and makes more sense in my opinion.

Just putting it out there... this all doesn't seem too hard to test, as long as we find other characters with really similar weights to the Pokemon.

That seems really plausible. I like your thinking. I say test this, and then the other guy's weight ideas. That should get us some good data. Also, try Rock Smashing them all and see what happens. And use Charizard's dsmash (I'm assuming it's EQ) to test if there really are dual types (i.e. Fire/Flying). It's interesting because Charizard's immunity to Ground attacks keeps him safe from his Fire typing's weakness. If he isn't immune to a Ground attack in Brawl, and he's just a Fire type, then a Ground attack should be "super effective."

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I think only Fire, and Lightning have attributes/effects in the game because they are incorporated into Olimar's game (For the fire to have no effect on Red pikmin they must have something in their code that makes them a fire 'attack'). Since there is no Ice, or Flying pikmin immunities they may not have incorporated it,but since they had to incorporate Lightning and Fire, they may have just added that as a fun effects ont he Pkm Trainer. Flying attacks, Ice attacks are just generic attacks with elemental animations, but THe Fire/Electricity have propeties a la Pikmin.

 

[Icy_Eagle]

If there are any different elemental effects between those three pokémon, it'll only be fire, water and electric (instead of grass since there isn't any specific grass element)

I hope this will turn out to be wrong since half of the brawl cast have an fire attack giving ivysaur stupid disadvantage.

 

[Aevin]

I think it's a disadvantage that Ivysaur needs in order to be balanced. He has great range, speed, and considerable power (via his up smash, which I believe is the strongest in the game). Having a weakness to Fire would help balance out his advantages. Squirtle and Charizard, I believe, aren't as powerful as Ivysaur in many ways. Maybe they specifically made Ivysaur more powerful in order to balance out his fire weakness. But then, I don't play PT, so my assumptions may be off the mark. I have fought him quite a lot, though.

 

[Jiggy.]

Guys, I doubt Sakurai went beyond the whole Fire/Water/Electric weaknessess. If he did follow the chart completely, Charizard would be immune to Ground moves (Earthquakes and the likes) and take less damage from regular fighting moves. Same with Ivysaur.

Completely agree. Then it would be way to complicated.

 

[Doctor T]

I definitely agree that there are surely no more than a small handful of element types. I'd say at most 4-5, most likely there are only 2-3. In such a complicated game like this, adding a whole array of elements would just be ridiculous.

Well, I guess we'll all be able to test things out for ourselves in the next week or so.

 

[epi_adict]

I am pretty sure that there is no ice element in the game and that it is just lumped under water. This topic came up on the olimar boards regarding pikmin immunities and they were testing the IC's attacks against them and the blue pikmin were shown to survive better against the IC's than any of the other pikmin. Just as it was shown they survive better against squirtle attacks. So I think by using the pikmin we can confirm at least the existence of fire, water, and electricity. Has anyone tested for grass attacks by using like ivy's upsmash to see if it will kill just squirtle?

 

[Aevin]

Interesting ... So you're saying my PK Freeze might work better against Charizard, but not Ivysaur? By pokemon rules, that wouldn't make sense, but you could be right ... EDIT: The earlier test shows only Squirtle dying from PK Freeze at high percentages, so I think it's safe to assume Ice has no effect at all. It's not a great KO move, but fully charged with Charizard at 180% should kill him if it were considered a water element and "super effective."

I'm still pretty certain Thunder has an effect on Squirtle, but not on Charizard (since they consider him only a fire element and ignore his dual type).

 

[epi_adict]

Hmm... that is curious. This will have to be looked into. The question is if charizard's weight saved him. I could be wrong about the ice attacks. Need to probably up the damage and see if A) Charizard dies before ivy and B) if at the % it kills charizard a similar weight character survives.

I do agree though that charizard is not considered flying and ivy probably not considered poison, ignoring dual types.

 

[Aevin]

I'd love to see more tests. PK Freeze isn't the best killer, but I still feel confident it would KO him at that percentage if it had increased knockback. Could be it's an exception because of the freezing effect, or something. Like the mechanics of being frozen somehow override the super effective calculations.

 

[epi_adict]

That's true too... trying to think if there is any other ko move that would be ice though. The only reason it was brought up in the olimar case was because element effects damage for pikmin so the IC's attacks could be used as tests. With only knockback being effected for pokemon though ice may not end up being a big factor or pk freeze is not even considered elemental being a minor element and having little presence. Like I said testing will have to be done. I will do some later. Probably not this weekend though since I think my friends and I will be playing too much for any of them to let me stop and test the ice knockback of charizard lol. Oh well gives me time to get the old capture card up and running so I can actually prove anything I find.