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Eliminating the Monetary Aspect of Tournaments.

Get Low

Smash Ace
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I don't remember where, but I heard Mew2king or someone talk about how there isn't any money to be made at Japanese Brawl tournaments, and their scene exists simply for the love of the game. I think that is absolutely tremendous, and it makes me wonder why the Melee scene in every other country can't be like that. I feel that other than having to pay a venue fee, entry into tournaments should be free. In this case, tournaments will be less expensive (considering the cost of gas, food, etc.), more people will feel inclined to enter since it's free, and the joy of playing the game that we all love is still to be had.

Opinions?
 

ZeldaFreak0309

Smash Journeyman
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Not to use this as an argument against your point, but a big reason they don't have money in Japanese tournaments is because gambling is illegal there.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
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We are a very competitive community (well, we say we are). Without the draw of a pot, it wouldn't be worth it for a lot of people (really good players) to spend the transportation money to come. And when you're not playing for money, "pride" only goes so far (I assume).
 

Get Low

Smash Ace
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We are a very competitive community (well, we say we are). Without the draw of a pot, it wouldn't be worth it for a lot of people (really good players) to spend the transportation money to come.
Well that's a shame for them, because it seems these players care more about money than the actual game, which is sad.

And when you're not playing for money, "pride" only goes so far (I assume).
What about fun? Is that even considered part of the game anymore?
 

Twinkles

Smash Lord
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Money adds a nice touch of salt to a fine meal. It makes a good experience even more entertaining. I mean, yeah, it was cool to win 1st place and get some pride, but how f*cking epic would it be to win and get a PRIZE to go with your insane wins????

For locals, I don't know how many people actually have had problems paying the $5-10 for an entry fee and for nationals/internationals, money has to be thrown in so some players have more incentive to pay hundreds of dollars to get a plane ticket in order to play a video game.

SPEAKING OF NO ENTRY FEE THOUGH: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=327543

(shameless plug)
 
Joined
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Better players will travel from father if there's money they can win. Everyone loves the better players


I have hosted a free-to-play tournament once before featuring Brawl and Melee and there were a few players that entered the other game to try it out. It happened 10 days before Apex 2012 and I advertised is as a training tournament for that event. It worked pretty well. 33 total players, 22 for Melee, 15 for Brawl. Our region's bests didn't show up at all though. It was hosted on a Wednesday though, which might change anything
 
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dansalvato
I think there is nothing wrong with a monetary prize at tournaments. Yes, some people are only willing to travel because of the monetary prize potential. Does that mean they care more about the money than the game? I'd be more likely to spend a few hundred or a thousand for travel if there was a chance of making it all back. Monetary expense was the reason I didn't go to FC, but if I felt I had a chance of winning then I totally would have gone.
 

Bones0

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It's all supply and demand. I bet if you hosted a tournament with entry fees that all the good players would go to that tournament over another. You don't have to enter tournaments anyway. Simply attending and playing friendlies is enough for a lot of people.
 

Bad Cupboard

Smash Apprentice
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Well that's a shame for them, because it seems these players care more about money than the actual game, which is sad.



What about fun? Is that even considered part of the game anymore?
No one plays for the cash. I can't imagine anyone would spend the money to travel all over the country (or WORLD) just for a relatively small cash prize.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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Yes, I'm sure people who "care more about money than the actual game" would settle for a game where prize money usually isn't even enough to cover travel expenses unless you place in the very top. >_>

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with a little prize money. It acts as a minor extra incentive to improve, and it adds hype to late bracket matches. Also, in my opinion, top players deserve a little reward for all the hard work they've put in, and the entertainment they provide.
 

Get Low

Smash Ace
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I understand the argument about rewarding top players, but what about the rest of us?
Perhaps it's the socialist in me, but I don't think top players should be treated better (monetarily) than any other player.
Whether someone's a beginner, an intermediate, or top player, they are all contributing to the community equally, simply by being a part of it.
 
Joined
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I understand the argument about rewarding top players, but what about the rest of us?
Perhaps it's the socialist in me, but I don't think top players should be treated better (monetarily) than any other player.
Whether someone's a beginner, an intermediate, or top player, they are all contributing to the community equally, simply by being a part of it.
Who get's talked about the most?

The top payers are getting treated better monetarily because they earned it (by winning)

Not all players are contributing equally. Low level players aren't as fun to watch (and play) as high level players


Perhaps holding more free-to-enter events might bring good like bringing out new players to try competing. This would work especially well for Brawl and Melee events because Brawl players get intimidated by Melee's tech skill requirement. Would anyone want to spend $5 to lose 4-0 in a game they're unfamiliar with?

If big name players are expected to miss work and fly all over the country for the entertainment of others there should be a monetary reward. It's silly to think that APEX would draw as many players as it will this year without the $3,000 in pot bonuses awarded to Smash games alone.
Are we talking about national/world tournaments?

I think they provide the most black and white comparison between cash and excellent smash.
I think that's a little bit extreme for a no-prize-money tournament
 

Seartu

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If big name players are expected to miss work and fly all over the country for the entertainment of others there should be a monetary reward. It's silly to think that APEX would draw as many players as it will this year without the $3,000 in pot bonuses awarded to Smash games alone.

It's good for the game as far as I'm concerned. Especially from a spectators status. And I am more than willing to contribute my entry fee to the pot in order to watch some awesome live smash.

Are we talking about national/world tournaments?
I think they provide the most black and white comparison between cash and excellent smash.
 

Max?

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It's a cultural thing. You would need some money to rent the venue at the very least.
 

Myztek

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I don't think money is the incentive for most players. The real incentive is personal, more than anything, IMO.

The great thing about cash prizes, is that it allows people to cover travel expenses if they win. If there were no cost for travel, then I guarantee you that tournaments would get a TON of players, even if there were no prize.

Tl;dr
Personal incentive > monetary incentive

:phone:
 

iRobinhoood

Smash Lord
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I skipped all the jibber jabber of posts, my bad if it's been posted already, but adding money gives the players something to lose. When somethings at stake I think players go harder and play better.
 

Kimimaru

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I agree with the other opinions here, but I want to point something else out:

A prize (not necessarily money) also reminds you of the tournament. I have some prizes from winning campus game tournaments, and whenever I look at them I look back fondly on the tournaments and remember the atmosphere, people, and matches played.

Entering tournaments is, to most people, more than just winning money.
 

Theftz22

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Hopewell, NJ
I can think of several players who at least wouldn't come out to locals if they weren't guaranteed their return on investment.
 

S l o X

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the east coast smash scene wouldn't exist if tournaments didn't have 10$ per entrant, sadly.

and by east coast i mean tristate.
 

Twinkles

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I understand the argument about rewarding top players, but what about the rest of us?
Perhaps it's the socialist in me, but I don't think top players should be treated better (monetarily) than any other player.
Whether someone's a beginner, an intermediate, or top player, they are all contributing to the community equally, simply by being a part of it.
Don't be a socialist when the top players earned it by playing hard lol

Top players in this community are more than just people who are really good at the game. People look up to these people, watch their videos, and learns tons of sht from these guys because they go out to these tournaments. Also, just their presence alone can bring players from all over to a tournament just to play them in person.

TLDR; Lower level players will pay that money because they want to play with and learn from the best.
Higher level players will go out to tournaments because they can have fun with the game and worry less about using up a shtton of money.
 

DerfMidWest

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While I'm a socialist and don't support competitive market and stuff, this is different.
Nobody plays for the money.
They play for the game.
The money is more of a mental thing, they aren't really making that much when they win, but in their minds, players are thinking about how they actually gained something through winning.
Its a positive mental thing.
It boosts confidence and gives players a short term goal.

Competition should exist in the world of competitive gaming.

Sometimes pride just isn't enough.
 

poega

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2011
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To put it simply: I gladly pay to get ***** by players like armada and leffen (and everybody else in the swedish smash scene except for Isa).

EDIT: Also, to elaborate on greentext above: it puts players in the position of either you or I win those $250. Simple as that. It's like a minumum saltbar.
 

rawrimamonster

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dearborn heights MI
I wouldn't mind havin bros over every day just for smash but **** if the community here isn't all brawl or retired. :c

but yea on topic, japan just operates on a different wavelength than us. I'd like to say its because they have closer knit communities and just ways of thinking, also because the island is smallish travel is much easier and get togethers are bound to happen way more frequent because everyone would know eachother.

Just my best guess.
 

Exeggutorr

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If tournaments didn't have prizes no one would go to them and the game would dwindle down to smashfests only and some people may just say screw it and stick to playing only the people they see regularly.
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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I understand the argument about rewarding top players, but what about the rest of us?
Perhaps it's the socialist in me, but I don't think top players should be treated better (monetarily) than any other player.
That has nothing to do with the "socialist in you". Not even communists have an issue with the concept that in a competition, the higher placing competitors get higher rewards. You didn't see the Soviet Union boycotting tournaments because the winner made more money than the others.

The "rest of us" simply have to work harder (now that's socialism).

Whether someone's a beginner, an intermediate, or top player, they are all contributing to the community equally, simply by being a part of it.
No, they're not. Top players have worked much harder, and they also provide entertaining matches, which in turn go up on Youtube and can attract new players. Their contribution is worth more.
 

Aldwyn McCloud

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The japanese smash community doesn't happen to be the only one doing this. As a matter of fact, all Italian tournaments (whether they were melee or brawl) never had any money prize at all. As many people more or less directly suggested in their replies the choice is pretty much directly dependent on the political/ideological views of the community (TOs in particular) about whether top players should be threated equally in comparison to others or not. It's a very old topic, with both sides having reasonable arguments (Who really won the war? The general who lead the army, or the soldiers who fought the battles?), many of which have already been expressed in this topic. There's not much left to add to the advantages of having money prizes since other replies already cover this point so I might as well give you an insight on the Italian system and the causes/consequences behind it.

Italy's position on this has always been crystal clear: law is the same for everyone and top players do not get special treatment because of their position. This mostly applies to other circumstances (most notably DQs although fortunately I don't think it ever happened) but also has consequences in deciding what to do of the entry fee money once the venue price is covered. Most of the time we don't even come to that point: we simply calculate an entry fee whose purpose is limited to covering the venue price and is also very low as a result. This way each player joining the tournament indirectly gets a discount from the fact that Italian top players are giving up their prize money. The only time this system was not used was when we hosted a tournament in a venue owned by one of our own guys: in this case there was no need for an entry fee at all, but we eventually opted to keep it anyway in order to devolve the money to players coming from far away whose train ticket had been particularly expensive (the tournament was actually in Switzerland).

Overall it's a pretty radical choice with radical causes and consequences as well: afaik no Italian player ever played for money since the very start (for some of us, including me, this is also a rule of ethics: as my smash wiki article states I never played a money match in my life, insisting that fun should be the one and only motivator). This brought us to adopt the present system which for obvious reasons never attracted videogame players interested in money. This possibly backfired on us because could be one of the reasons the Italian smash community is and has always been so small and kinda improductive competitively speaking (the other ones being problems with traveling/trains, problems in organizing events and videogames/nintendo not being very popular in general). On the other hand, people in our community are bound by friendship and love for videogames rather than by competition/thirst for money and as such it was able to endure the loss of interest in both melee/brawl that hit us over the years (I myself just came back from a smashfest where no melee nor brawl was played at all, which I consider to be the biggest contradiction and achievement at the same time).

TL;DR: Choosing to have money prizes or not is directly linked to TOs' ideological positions on whether top players are equal or not to others in terms of importance in the community. Over the time, the choice will also structure the communities in different specific types because of the differing purposes behind people's affiliation. Italians never had money prizes because we're all a bunch of baby-eating commies and will bury you all.
 

Battlecow

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Lol

have you weeaboos ever been to japan?

The japanese aren't that different from us. They don't play for money because their country's laws are different, not because they're honor-driven alien samurai or something

also GOD DAMN, ajp, go back to r/atheism or the nearest anime convention or something. Jesus, that's really not acceptable.

Money's the best. it adds so much hype. Seriously, do you think that late bracket matches would be as ****ing crazy awesome exciting as they are if there was no money on the line? Also people would sandbag like crazy, etc. etc.
 

Youngling

Smash Journeyman
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this reminds me of when my grade school teacher didn't want us to keep score when we played football at recess.

:phone:
 

Mahone

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there's no point to this thread Get Low... people are just super brainwashed into thinking the system is good no MATTER WHAT... so you cant say anything that will convince them otherwise

Illuminati man... Illuminati

for the record, im with you, free tournies would be sweet
 

Battlecow

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A lot of sports run "free" (i.e. just venue fee) tournies. They'd all be better with money.
 
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Free-to-enter tournaments might help bring in new players (like Brawl players who like to watch the game but are intimidated by the tech skill requirement)

Pay-to-enter tournament would help to make it more fun
 

Life

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We have free smash events, they're called smashfests. Smashfest plus bracket equals exactly what the OP is talking about.

And I do support money in smash, although I'd also point out that if you're only playing for money, you're probably better off quitting and applying the effort to something you DO enjoy and can still make money at. I mean, if you want to play video games for money, get good at like SC2 or SF or something. Smash is small enough that everyone has to be enjoying themselves playing at least a little (or even just enjoying the atmosphere and camaraderie even if they don't like the game itself) or it's not satisfying enough to do.

In other words, if you're playing Smash, you already ARE playing for fun. Money just adds to the hype and, for the top players, helps them travel around and teach others to play better (by beating them, of course).
 

tarheeljks

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Aldwyn McCloud said:
Choosing to have money prizes or not is directly linked to TOs' ideological positions on whether top players are equal or not to others in terms of importance in the community.
huh? say what. i kinda see what you are saying but it seems tenuous
 

Eggm

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There's no way I would have been able to camp DJ nintendo's camping samus for 2 minutes in order to win the set last weekend without the 100.00 difference between 1st and 2nd place, I would have just lost, and for the record, I still love melee, but money makes me try harder than I could without it being there (not by choice).
 
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