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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

T3h Albino

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
3,160
Location
Snellville GA
Well gates since the infinite is getting banned EVERYWHERE
id suggest we get on these matchups where we can infinite
starting with luigi since i live in a region where 2 of the top luigi's live
=/ and 1 of them dominates my tournament scene and i really dont know what to do about it
i can get tips but i'd really appreciate going over this matchup
kthnx
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
9,316
Well gates since the infinite is getting banned EVERYWHERE
That's funny, I can think of 3 major tournaments that don't have it banned off the top of my head.

Atlantic South != Everywhere

We'll discuss the matchups when it's time.
 

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,283
Location
Perth, Australia
Ok, well I decided to write a Marth summary in case you wanted to use it. If you don't want to use it thats ok :p I took it all from what people wrote with the discussion, with a tiny bit of personal experience.

Marth Summary

This matchup can be easy if you know how to handle marths but can be difficult otherwise. Marth has a terrible recovery, and you can abuse this by CGing him to the edge and attempting to gimp him with bairs. Although his UP+B has good priority so watch out for that. Also notice that sometimes his UP+B will hit you if you are standing on the ledge and he UP+B's into the ledge. The marth's spacing has to be near perfect or he will get easily punished by DDD and his large grab range, while he has trouble punishing DDD for moves. Ftilt works great to stop his spaced wall of Fairs and Nairs and his Dancing blade. Shield grab his Dancing Blade. Most of the time if they see they are going to get grabbed they will stop the dancing blade on the 1st or 3rd swing, but it is still possible to grab them, although beware the down (green) version can shield poke if your shield is already low.

Also note that Marth has a chaingrab on DDD with fthrow up to around 150% (not sure, this is what Gates wrote in the Marth discussion but I think you can easily get out of it by then, can someone confirm). At 0% he can Fthrow-> tippered Fsmash and he can spike you out of the chaingrab until around 12% However DDD gets thrown a fair way forward so Marth can only get around 6-8 grabs in on FD assuming he starts at the end, which is around 24%. Although Ftilt is great for stopping his approaches it won't stop all of them so don't rely on it or spam it. You're going to have to SCG well this matchup or marth can Up+B out of it. If you predict it however you can upsmash him while his in his helpless state, or regrab and Dthrow for more mindgames. Marth is the lightest character you can chaingrab so at higher percents if you predict the UP+B, Utilt or Usmash it, or pull out the Jet hammer.

As mentioned before a great way to kill Marth is by gimping him with wall of pain Bairs and then edgehogging to make sure. You don't even have to send him out that far to kill him and the chaingrab gives you an opportunity to get him offstage.

A common move for Marths to pressure shields is SH double Fair -> Dancing Blade down version (green). This will punish you if you attempt to grab after the Double Fair. You can also outcamp Marth but remember that he is fast and if you throw a waddle dee when he his too close he can punish you for it. I doubt marth could get you far enough off the stage to be force you to use your UP+B because of his bad recovery but when you must use it be careful and try to sweetspot the ledge. Marth can easily punish your UP+B with Fair or Nair, Dancing Blade, or Usmash as you're coming down. Alternatively you could occasionally try to land your UP+B on the stage right at the apex of your jump which might be unexpected.

DDD's chaingrab gives him more control over the match as he can either chaingrab the Marth off the edge and attempt a gimp or go into Mindgames and try to predict if the Marth will use UP+B. One of the most dangerous places for DDD in this matchup is the ledge. Marth can cover all his ledge options with ease and it can be difficult for DDD to get back on the stage. If you're on a high percent or winning on stock you can jump -> fastfall inhale from the ledge which most Marths won't be expecting and swallowcide.

Don't always punish shield breaker as its ending lag is quite short. Unless it is fully charged it will always take away 80% of your shield so watch out. Also remember it can be used as a recovery method as he gains a lot of horizontal momentum after it. When using Bair, use a retreating Bair instead of an approaching one as it will clank with Marths Fair.

Good stages: Final Destination, Castle Siege, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination gives you good room to chaingrab and lets you slow the match down to the pace you want. The lip makes it good for stage spikes as well. Castle siege is good for walk offs on the second stage but beware of chaingrabs on the first and third stage where it is not flat. Halberd has a low ceiling so its good for killing him early. PS1 is great for DDD as he can chaingrab marth to a wall and infinite him there, though beware that Marth can chaingrab you to a wall and infinite you with Dtilt so beware of that.

Ban: Battlefield, Brinstar, Yoshi's Island, Norfair.
Marth can punish your UP+B with the platforms on these stages and can generally abuse the platforms better then you can.

(Dunno what other stages to ban, need help here :p)
 

Commander_Beef

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Messages
2,965
Location
Redondo Beach, California
Ok I'll help. Ban:
Norfair: Just like Meta Knight here, Marth's aerial game beats King Dedede's here, and King Dedede's sideB is almost useless.

Yoshi's Island: That god**** platform covers Marth better than it does King Dedede. It's harder to stage spike Marth here, and Marth's sideB seems to work better on King Dedede here.
 

Jupz

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
3,283
Location
Perth, Australia
Ok, well I decided to write a Marth summary in case you wanted to use it. If you don't want to use it thats ok :p I took it all from what people wrote with the discussion, with a tiny bit of personal experience.

Marth Summary

This matchup can be easy if you know how to handle marths but can be difficult otherwise. Marth has a terrible recovery, and you can abuse this by CGing him to the edge and attempting to gimp him with bairs. Although his UP+B has good priority so watch out for that. Also notice that sometimes his UP+B will hit you if you are standing on the ledge and he UP+B's into the ledge. The marth's spacing has to be near perfect or he will get easily punished by DDD and his large grab range, while he has trouble punishing DDD for moves. Ftilt works great to stop his spaced wall of Fairs and Nairs and his Dancing blade. Shield grab his Dancing Blade. Most of the time if they see they are going to get grabbed they will stop the dancing blade on the 1st or 3rd swing, but it is still possible to grab them, although beware the down (green) version can shield poke if your shield is already low.

Also note that Marth has a chaingrab on DDD with fthrow up to around 150% (not sure, this is what Gates wrote in the Marth discussion but I think you can easily get out of it by then, can someone confirm). At 0% he can Fthrow-> tippered Fsmash and he can spike you out of the chaingrab until around 12% However DDD gets thrown a fair way forward so Marth can only get around 6-8 grabs in on FD assuming he starts at the end, which is around 24%. Although Ftilt is great for stopping his approaches it won't stop all of them so don't rely on it or spam it. You're going to have to SCG well this matchup or marth can Up+B out of it. If you predict it however you can upsmash him while his in his helpless state, or regrab and Dthrow for more mindgames. Marth is the lightest character you can chaingrab so at higher percents if you predict the UP+B, Utilt or Usmash it, or pull out the Jet hammer.

As mentioned before a great way to kill Marth is by gimping him with wall of pain Bairs and then edgehogging to make sure. You don't even have to send him out that far to kill him and the chaingrab gives you an opportunity to get him offstage.

A common move for Marths to pressure shields is SH double Fair -> Dancing Blade down version (green). This will punish you if you attempt to grab after the Double Fair. You can also outcamp Marth but remember that he is fast and if you throw a waddle dee when he his too close he can punish you for it. I doubt marth could get you far enough off the stage to be force you to use your UP+B because of his bad recovery but when you must use it be careful and try to sweetspot the ledge. Marth can easily punish your UP+B with Fair or Nair, Dancing Blade, or Usmash as you're coming down. Alternatively you could occasionally try to land your UP+B on the stage right at the apex of your jump which might be unexpected.

DDD's chaingrab gives him more control over the match as he can either chaingrab the Marth off the edge and attempt a gimp or go into Mindgames and try to predict if the Marth will use UP+B. One of the most dangerous places for DDD in this matchup is the ledge. Marth can cover all his ledge options with ease and it can be difficult for DDD to get back on the stage. If you're on a high percent or winning on stock you can jump -> fastfall inhale from the ledge which most Marths won't be expecting and swallowcide.

Don't always punish shield breaker as its ending lag is quite short. Unless it is fully charged it will always take away 80% of your shield so watch out. Also remember it can be used as a recovery method as he gains a lot of horizontal momentum after it. When using Bair, use a retreating Bair instead of an approaching one as it will clank with Marths Fair.

Good stages: Final Destination, Castle Siege, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination gives you good room to chaingrab and lets you slow the match down to the pace you want. The lip makes it good for stage spikes as well. Castle siege is good for walk offs on the second stage but beware of chaingrabs on the first and third stage where it is not flat. Halberd has a low ceiling so its good for killing him early. PS1 is great for DDD as he can chaingrab marth to a wall and infinite him there, though beware that Marth can chaingrab you to a wall and infinite you with Dtilt so beware of that.

Ban: Battlefield, Brinstar, Yoshi's Island, Norfair.
Marth can punish your UP+B with the platforms on these stages and can generally abuse the platforms better then you can. On Norfair his aerials>yours and your side b is useless.
Cause it was the last post.


Thanks for that beef :p
 

T3h Albino

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Snellville GA
That's funny, I can think of 3 major tournaments that don't have it banned off the top of my head.

Atlantic South != Everywhere

We'll discuss the matchups when it's time.
The atlantic south is everywhere nowhere else matters :p
but in all seriousness i meant most of the regionals i've been attending <_<
it seems that nobody really uses the infinite in tourneyplay none of the d3's ive seen anyway
but whatevz the time will come as you said
 

Jupz

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Perth, Australia
Yeah I already saw that. I was talking to a falco main today and apparently its pretty situational, plus DDD can airdodge out.
 

CRASHiC

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Haiti Gonna Hait
What they don't know though is that chaingrab to dair is a true combo. I told them once, and all they said was, So? Just chain grab to the end of the stage.
 

Gates

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Yeah I already saw that. I was talking to a falco main today and apparently its pretty situational, plus DDD can airdodge out.
You can also tech the dair.

I'm actually glad someone brought this up because it leads into the next discussion.

G&W rediscussion is closed.
FALCO REDISCUSSION GO!

Where is Buuman? He suggested like half of the rediscussions.
 

Blistering Speed

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Dot Dot Dash Dot
Falco can just be all like pew pew grab to 50% to whatever to pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew U Smash/D Air after SA on Up B's done/B Air. If you get close he's just like *twinkle* "I'm over here now" pew pew pew pew.

Fuuuunnn.
 

Gates

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Falco can just be all like pew pew grab to 50% to whatever to pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew U Smash/D Air after SA on Up B's done/B Air. If you get close he's just like *twinkle* "I'm over here now" pew pew pew pew.

Fuuuunnn.
That's the best matchup summary I've ever seen.
 

DEHF

Smash Champion
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reseda CA
NNID
larrlurr
falco's A spam is a move that DDD has a trouble getting around and even if they DI out falco should have enough time to cancel it so that DDD can't do anything to capitalize on it
 

Jupz

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Perth, Australia
Hmm so before yesterday I had never played against a good falco and I think I was underestimating how difficult the matchup really is. If your shield is down the lasers will poke you in the head. Approaching was a little difficult but is possible with SH airdodges. IAP's are...... annoying -.-

The only thing you have over him is kill power and weight.
 

Mikey7

Smash Lord
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Mississauga, ON
I don't think a Falco has ever killed me below 170 before : )

Spamming Falcos...back air goes through side b enough said, so does up tilt for easy killing moves.

Falco DOES win though don't get this post wrong, 65:35 : (
 

OmegaXis

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None of your buisness, you stalker.
I have seen both of them start in the same way, some sort of chain grab.
Falco probbably has the faster airs, and the only thing Dedede really has over Falco is speed and weight.

That's not to say he cannot be used against a good falco. He can.

[Perfect grammar combo.]
 

Gates

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Falco probbably has the faster airs,
idk, Dedede's bair and nair are pretty fast, but other than that I'd have to agree.

Also, some feedback from M2K from a MK banned tourney he used Dedede at a while ago.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmm pride, there was a mk banned tourney that me, azen, chillin, and atomsk were at (also they didn't tell me that it was MK banned until the NIGHT before like half a day before the tourney)

i lost to chillins falco with ddd cuz all he did was CG 0-60 then laser camp into rapid A then run away with illusions over and over. I did better vs chillins falco than atomsk's ddd is (someone more experienced in the matchup than me). The matchup is hopeless.

That's the ONLY person i lost to, and I lost to him 1 set. Then we SPLIT TOP 4, WITHOUT PLAYING ANYTHING OUT. I lost 1 set to chillins falco (doing BETTER than atomsk did vs him, making atomsk also believe the matchup is hopeless). I did NOT play another set with him, and I did NOT play atomsk or azen either.
And Beef, don't be a ****.
 

Excellence

Smash Champion
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The Legion of Doom Headquarters
Shorthop then airdodge to approach or fullhop into whatever you feel like it till you get to Falco. I usually try to mindgame with inhale, Bair, FF Nair, and Dair because I know Falco wants to get in his ****ing chaingrab. After I get a percentage lead, even if its 1%, I camp on the ledge and let Falco come to me.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
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Chapel Hill, NC
ddd's ledgecamp game is weak...i'm pretty sure falco can ftilt him off the edge or falling bair punch ddd

but falco is bad at beating ledgecamp, so idk
 

sMexy-Blu

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
1,441
Don't play many Falco's.

When I play one they are usually pretty bad or rusty so I beat them pretty easily.

You can tech his CG to spike just to show off but its not really necessary because DeDeDe comes back to the stage most of the time if he reacts fast.

To tech his CG to spike just SDI to the stage and tech.

Falco is probably the best character at camping, what they mostly do is SHL till you approach them and then they Phantasm away from you and continue camping, this strategy is really gay but you know the rules to counter a gay strategy you MUST use a gay strategy like planking.

Predict when Falco does the Phantasm and Utilt him out of it.

Watch out for SHDL to Boost Smash its a scary finisher.
 

Fogo

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falco's A spam is a move that DDD has a trouble getting around and even if they DI out falco should have enough time to cancel it so that DDD can't do anything to capitalize on it
LOL so gay, but soooo true

feedback from M2K from a MK banned tourney he used Dedede at a while ago.
I don't think it's hopeless :(

Falco players are gay, you just gotta be patient and learn to predict.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-vDisWrAP4 :) it can be done.


Now diddy on the other hand is something i'm worried about :(
 

sMexy-Blu

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
1,441
ddd can cg falco

fogo is a witness

the matchup is now 80-20 d3

lol tech chasing
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
9,316
I didn't think F*** can be used as a noun lol.
Sure it can. ex: "I don't give a ****."

Now diddy on the other hand is something i'm worried about :(
I hate Diddy. I'm gonna put him on the rediscussion list.

EDIT: Wow, I just got done watching the video. Too ****ing good roflmao.

Also, whatever happened to that "Fogo Walk™"?
 

Fogo

Smash Shinigami
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Kirbykid's ruleset, TX.
Roll spamming, non IAPing or rapid jabbing Falco's who mess up the simplest chaingrab in history aren't the best example Fogo.
Not the point. That vid was to say that the matchup isn't hopless. If you don't main falco, you most likely won't beat someone who mains Dedede and understands the match-up in and out.

Similiar to how non-dedede players can pick him and just CG for the win against DK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahlj-NVLJ5Y

There's one that's a bit better.

Also, whatever happened to that "Fogo Walk™"?
It exists, it's useless now though. Falcos figured out how to be gay and people are a lot smarter lol
 

RATED

Smash Lord
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May 14, 2008
Messages
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The Grand Line... PR
****ing hate falco.
No one I like to play as covers him.
They all have 30-70.
that happens to me too. I main ddd and snake. but I do good against falcos with both characters. with ddd if they are spamming the SHDL and variating them with jabs and forward B , I just jump through the lasers and land not that near of falco but at a position that I could punish his Forward b or his roll to jabs. and then grabs if he is about to jab , if he rolls to jab I dsmash the hell out of it, if I expect them to forward b I use UP tilt ftw! evaluation d percentage, time, stocks and position u could predict what option the falco will do and then its PUNISH TIMEEEEEEEEE!.:chuckle:
 
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