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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
Fortress | Sveet
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I can't speak for anyone else but i've been busy.
As a smashboards melee mentor i can try to give you some advice to help you improve, but my philosophy is that the student must find the teacher so i rarely respond to things i see posted on the boards. Feel free to send me a PM or a message on AIM/skype/steam.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Yall haven't seen my Marth... 
(don't btw) it's REALLLLY.. bad... Just wanted to say Hi.. to AustinRC and TAI
<3.......^^; I slept for like 11 hours straight.. now I can't sleep... and I have work... later on this afternoon.. ><; and i'm prolly gonna stay up
(don't btw) it's REALLLLY.. bad... Just wanted to say Hi.. to AustinRC and TAI
<3.......^^; I slept for like 11 hours straight.. now I can't sleep... and I have work... later on this afternoon.. ><; and i'm prolly gonna stay up
Fortress | Sveet
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vman the green name suits you perfectly ^^
austin, the mentoring program is a cool little project. For brawl, its a little more advanced since there is generally a larger quantity of players and those players are looking for top players of each characters to help them. For melee, it has mostly been people starting off with the game or people just starting to get to tournaments. For more info, click the image in my sig
austin, the mentoring program is a cool little project. For brawl, its a little more advanced since there is generally a larger quantity of players and those players are looking for top players of each characters to help them. For melee, it has mostly been people starting off with the game or people just starting to get to tournaments. For more info, click the image in my sig
adding text to get sig........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I like to believe that i'm an alright critiquer :D
Niko45
Smash Master
You don't have to be a top player or anything to critique. I don't even consider myself better than most of the people I give critiques. Some players I directly know are better than me cause I've played them lol.
But really like anybody can give you suggestions and its up to you to take them or not. Even if I say 8 useless things if the 9th thing is something useful to you then it's a success imo. It's pretty difficult to know from watching a couple of matches which mistakes are just random and which ones are badly ingrained habits. I feel like critiquing is largely about "just throwing stuff out there" just to touch on it in case it's worth mentioning.
Plus I get something out of it too. It's a good exercise for thinking about the game and stuff.
Anyways MT I'll edit in some thoughts for you in a bit.
EDIT:
MT:
Couple of things on stage that I think you should work on. It looks like you are moving a little too excessively. Big sweeping dash dances are setting you up to kind of stumble into peach's attacks or leaving you in a bad position to deal with turnips (usually emergency shield). You really don't want to be shielding turnips or shielding very much vs peach in general because she loves that. She has arguably the best shield pressure in the game and is more than willing to just attack your shield with fairs/nairs jabs and dsmash. I think you have a good sense of when you are not in a good position against peach, but some of your responses to this aren't the best. On the ground, rolling away is often the very best thing you can do because it can be hard for peach to punish rolls and it gets you the hell out of there and back to reset. I see you sometimes doing sidesteps which are basically never a good idea against peach (always the threat of multi hit attack, plus you don't gain enough frame advantage from sidestepping her regular attacks and will still just need to get away asap anyway.
You have a nice combo starter in the first game which is dropped by barely missing a fair. This sucks, but once the combo is dropped you just have to let it go. You end up fsmashing on a platform trying to patch the combo back together and she roll dsmashes you for it.
Whenever you get remotely out of position against peach don't try to fight it just think reset reset reset. Rolls while good on the ground are really bad on the platforms and you ate a big dsmash for that (probably just a mistake tho). When you're stuck on plats the best thing to do is just jump out or waveland to top plat because she just doesn't challenge your air game very well. Usually through some weaving across platforms you can eventually get yourself back down on the ground and back into a neutral position.
From totally neutral position she's either going to pull turnips or dash attack you basically. Here is where I would stop doing big DDs or waveland drop down fair approaching for no reason. Walk and measure your spacing against her and react to what she does. If she dash attacks, quickly DD away or shield and grab. If she goes to pull a turnip try to dash attack her or if you don't feel you can get there in time at least close the space on her quickly and try to force her into her shield and eventually punish whatever she does to try to escape.
But honestly overall you're playing pretty solidly and you would have done way better, at least taken a game, if not for your recovery. You mentioned you're not very experienced with peach and I think this is where it showed the most. You just kinda look terrified of being offstage and your recoveries are often sloppy (probably nerves) or you just simply make no adjustment to how she's trying to edgeguard you. If she throws a turnip down at you, DJ backwards a little bit to avoid that and then up B to the ledge. Don't just let that hit you and push you under the stage. If peach is killing Marth at 40 it's just about impossible to win. On the very last stock of the set for example, you should have tried to up B to the stage, and let the turnip hit you so that you could recover again. By avoiding the turnip all together you got edgehogged unnecessarily. Another time you air dodged for some reason maybe just misjudged the distance.
Towards the end in general you were floating down way way too far on stage. Against characters like Peach or Puff you need to recover "aggressively" because they could come out there and hit you and you need to use all your options and sword to protect yourself during recovery. For instance you can fair away turnips thrown at you, but you can also dodge them with a side B hesitation, sudden fast fall, or DJ if you survey that those would be better choices at the time. But by floating so far over the stage you're just kind of floating in range for her to do all kinds of stuff to you. Even though she has great offstage ability you still need to use the pit to your advantage and force her to limit herself in SOME way if she wants to come after you, which then you can hopefully respond to.
You are also DJing on stage too much. This is probably a bad habit that nerves bring on. Try to stop doing that. Don't go in the air for no reason, and especially don't DJ unless peach is actually forcing you to do it. At one point she just watched you jump and DJ in place and then just dash attacked you away as you came down for the easy kill.
I think with more peach experience your recovery will improve drastically and you'll win. I also really liked your pivot fsmashes, though they weren't always used ideally. At lower percents it would be better to punish with grab as you can rack damage much faster that way. It definitely has utility though so keep tinkering with it to find where it's best to use it.
But really like anybody can give you suggestions and its up to you to take them or not. Even if I say 8 useless things if the 9th thing is something useful to you then it's a success imo. It's pretty difficult to know from watching a couple of matches which mistakes are just random and which ones are badly ingrained habits. I feel like critiquing is largely about "just throwing stuff out there" just to touch on it in case it's worth mentioning.
Plus I get something out of it too. It's a good exercise for thinking about the game and stuff.
Anyways MT I'll edit in some thoughts for you in a bit.
EDIT:
MT:
Couple of things on stage that I think you should work on. It looks like you are moving a little too excessively. Big sweeping dash dances are setting you up to kind of stumble into peach's attacks or leaving you in a bad position to deal with turnips (usually emergency shield). You really don't want to be shielding turnips or shielding very much vs peach in general because she loves that. She has arguably the best shield pressure in the game and is more than willing to just attack your shield with fairs/nairs jabs and dsmash. I think you have a good sense of when you are not in a good position against peach, but some of your responses to this aren't the best. On the ground, rolling away is often the very best thing you can do because it can be hard for peach to punish rolls and it gets you the hell out of there and back to reset. I see you sometimes doing sidesteps which are basically never a good idea against peach (always the threat of multi hit attack, plus you don't gain enough frame advantage from sidestepping her regular attacks and will still just need to get away asap anyway.
You have a nice combo starter in the first game which is dropped by barely missing a fair. This sucks, but once the combo is dropped you just have to let it go. You end up fsmashing on a platform trying to patch the combo back together and she roll dsmashes you for it.
Whenever you get remotely out of position against peach don't try to fight it just think reset reset reset. Rolls while good on the ground are really bad on the platforms and you ate a big dsmash for that (probably just a mistake tho). When you're stuck on plats the best thing to do is just jump out or waveland to top plat because she just doesn't challenge your air game very well. Usually through some weaving across platforms you can eventually get yourself back down on the ground and back into a neutral position.
From totally neutral position she's either going to pull turnips or dash attack you basically. Here is where I would stop doing big DDs or waveland drop down fair approaching for no reason. Walk and measure your spacing against her and react to what she does. If she dash attacks, quickly DD away or shield and grab. If she goes to pull a turnip try to dash attack her or if you don't feel you can get there in time at least close the space on her quickly and try to force her into her shield and eventually punish whatever she does to try to escape.
But honestly overall you're playing pretty solidly and you would have done way better, at least taken a game, if not for your recovery. You mentioned you're not very experienced with peach and I think this is where it showed the most. You just kinda look terrified of being offstage and your recoveries are often sloppy (probably nerves) or you just simply make no adjustment to how she's trying to edgeguard you. If she throws a turnip down at you, DJ backwards a little bit to avoid that and then up B to the ledge. Don't just let that hit you and push you under the stage. If peach is killing Marth at 40 it's just about impossible to win. On the very last stock of the set for example, you should have tried to up B to the stage, and let the turnip hit you so that you could recover again. By avoiding the turnip all together you got edgehogged unnecessarily. Another time you air dodged for some reason maybe just misjudged the distance.
Towards the end in general you were floating down way way too far on stage. Against characters like Peach or Puff you need to recover "aggressively" because they could come out there and hit you and you need to use all your options and sword to protect yourself during recovery. For instance you can fair away turnips thrown at you, but you can also dodge them with a side B hesitation, sudden fast fall, or DJ if you survey that those would be better choices at the time. But by floating so far over the stage you're just kind of floating in range for her to do all kinds of stuff to you. Even though she has great offstage ability you still need to use the pit to your advantage and force her to limit herself in SOME way if she wants to come after you, which then you can hopefully respond to.
You are also DJing on stage too much. This is probably a bad habit that nerves bring on. Try to stop doing that. Don't go in the air for no reason, and especially don't DJ unless peach is actually forcing you to do it. At one point she just watched you jump and DJ in place and then just dash attacked you away as you came down for the easy kill.
I think with more peach experience your recovery will improve drastically and you'll win. I also really liked your pivot fsmashes, though they weren't always used ideally. At lower percents it would be better to punish with grab as you can rack damage much faster that way. It definitely has utility though so keep tinkering with it to find where it's best to use it.
Fortress | Sveet
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mentoring program is going good. i have 2 or 3 people i talk to on a regular basis about melee. I convinced one of them to go to pound 5.
Wii Lee
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 24
Hey guys, here's some matches of my Marth against a Falco (match 2 and 3 of the set, starts at 3:34)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcQ8j3FkrXE
I really really want to improve my Marth now (i recently falled in love with this character LOL), that's why I need your advices guys
Thanks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcQ8j3FkrXE
I really really want to improve my Marth now (i recently falled in love with this character LOL), that's why I need your advices guys
Thanks
MT_
Smash Ace
Niko, thanks SO much for the advice. You really hit home when you said I looked terrified of being off stage haha, because I was >_>. I've read over your advice like 10 times already haha and am now looking forward to applying to the next time I play... Again, thanks a BUNCH!
Only reason I'm doing this is because I have severe insomnia and am incredibly bored. Alright MT you need to work more on the basics man. Space your priority stick man. Dont try and approach from the air too far away you do this multiple times. If Marth has too much momentum built up he cant dash away safely after an areal when approaching far out. Make sure she is forced to shield the areal attack otherwise dont go too far out after her or any character for that matter. I will let you in on the Marth vs Peach matchup a little. Do not let that ***** grab turnips. There is this special range which will destroy peach that you need to stay at, its right outside her dash attack range and right inside the range so that if she pulls a turnip you can punish with a run in grab or a running dtilt. You need to force peach into the air so you MUST have an exceptional ground game with marth dont forget your ground approaches they are good too! Dtilt is REALLY amazing in this match also approaching with shield every now and again aint a bad idea either just be smart about it and not do it in grab range of peach. When you do get a grab there are a few things you can do. If she's at 0 you can fthrow dash attack up tilt which is really cool and one of my favorite combos in the game. Or you can up throw and short hop uair which will tip and usually get them out of their double jump which will let you get more hits. Basically you want to not let her get to the ground once you have her in the air just keep hitting her. If she's in the air and without a jump or float its free damage. When you get to higher percent you can fthrow or dthrow into wavedash tipper. Also since I've seen you pivot fsmash you can also do it from those grabs at earlier percents to get tippers too if they dont full DI away almost everyone who dosent have epxerience vs this pivot smash will usually get hit by it but dont use it too often. This pivot fsmash after throws is AWESOME on small stages I've killed people at around 50% to 60% before with it on Yoshi's "Floaty chatacters that is". Turnips can be hard to get around but once you know how and have some experience its not so hard. You should only counter a turnip if peach is floating towards you other wise she will pull another one and then you'll have a bunch of vegetables in your face. If she is on the ground and throwing turnips jump over them dont try and attack her though just jump straight over them or jab/ ftilt them. Eventually she'll jump and throw one at that time run under the turnip and get close to her and under her if you can. Then she will be in the air without a turnip and its a REALLY bad spot for her. You can also nair through turnips sometimes but its really weird for me sometimes it works sometimes it dosent. I think its a spacing/ timing thing I'm probably just bad at it. But yeah for now you really need more refinement on the basics. It seems the power of the pivot is strong with you so I will let it blossom and see what you can create with it. Show me some good results and I'll give you more info! <3
P.S. Also protip here if you try and grab peach and she dodges grab again most of them will spam on dsmash you will grab them before the dsmash comes out. Peace out!
P.S. Also protip here if you try and grab peach and she dodges grab again most of them will spam on dsmash you will grab them before the dsmash comes out. Peace out!
Protip: Wall of text is bad form :/
Break it up into points so it is easy to read and digest.
Break it up into points so it is easy to read and digest.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
^ I agree there is no way in hell I would read that labyrinth of text you wrote.
Fortress | Sveet
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yeah i gave it less of a chance than an ICG post
Palpi
Smash Hero
labyrinth of text lol...
a desk of cheese its?
where do you gets these measurements from?
<3 family guy
AceDudeyeah
Smash Ace
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
You guys should totally critique my matches vs G-mo (maXXXpower)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnGuoutOIek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigBs1iJrQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LwLa-Frfmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnGuoutOIek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tigBs1iJrQ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LwLa-Frfmc
mexicanmax227
Smash Apprentice
tai
GET AGRO!!!!!!! i am wisdom master your shffls always be doing some thing just practice always dashdancing and shffling, randomly double jump, randomly dtilt, randomly jab, randomly stop moving i wanna see a video that reps your agression. chain actions ex jab dash dance towards or away from your opponent then fh fair twice then lcancel and Random! your opponents agressed you all games. bait your shffls, it works if your on their *** whole game. THEN ATTEMPT GRAB.
shffl roll, dash, jab, smashs, specials(sword dance *****), spot dodges, sheild, light sheild, fh, sh, shffl again, ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!! pratice moving your fingers FAST in traing to master this then ill tell you the chap stuff ken used to do off spawn or when your opponent spawns ex( THE SNAKE!!!! random intimidating dashs, usually under plat to freak opponent the snuck out). ill share even chaper knowledge once you get agro. I dont care if you get ***** show me an agro vid BLARGAHHHHHHHHHH(i respect u) i think this will make you evolve
GET AGRO!!!!!!! i am wisdom
master your shffls always be doing some thing just practice always dashdancing and shffling, randomly double jump, randomly dtilt, randomly jab, randomly stop moving i wanna see a video that reps your agression. chain actions ex jab dash dance towards or away from your opponent then fh fair twice then lcancel and Random! your opponents agressed you all games. bait your shffls, it works if your on their *** whole game. THEN ATTEMPT GRAB. shffl roll, dash, jab, smashs, specials(sword dance *****
), spot dodges, sheild, light sheild, fh, sh, shffl again, ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!! pratice moving your fingers FAST in traing to master this then ill tell you the chap stuff ken used to do off spawn or when your opponent spawns ex( THE SNAKE!!!! random intimidating dashs, usually under plat to freak opponent the snuck out). ill share even chaper knowledge once you get agro. I dont care if you get ***** show me an agro vid BLARGAHHHHHHHHHH(i respect u) i think this will make you evolve
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Tai, you used to suck.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i am very personally offended that you think that, especially since these matches aren't that old
mers
Smash Ace
Whoa. That threw me off so hard until I looked at the upload date.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You're not fooling anyone. You're actually flattered because it's implied that you got better at an impressive rate.
mexicanmax227
Smash Apprentice
ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......I love tai lol
Palpi
Smash Hero
Tai...how old were you in those videos?
mexicanmax227
Smash Apprentice
I want u main stage against m2k pound 5! I'll train u....... Don't laugh
12345678910 whoops
....... Don't laugh12345678910 whoops
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
i was 14 in those vids
Roneblaster
Smash Hero
i want to make some joke about tai sucking, but it just wouldnt work because tai is too awesome and in order to make the joke logical i would have to write 2 paragraphs, and nobody wants to read a 2 paragraph joke.
TLDR;
<3 tai. i didnt know who it was that sent me a FB request until dart pointed out the middle name.
TLDR;
<3 tai. i didnt know who it was that sent me a FB request until dart pointed out the middle name.
Ref. Code: Isuxatthisgame
My bad.... LOL
giantimi(Marth) vs Nainsoo(Falcon)
I know my Marth isn't very good and I don't really know this matchup. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
My bad.... LOL
giantimi(Marth) vs Nainsoo(Falcon)
I know my Marth isn't very good and I don't really know this matchup. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Fortress | Sveet
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^helps to supply the video.
Fortress | Sveet
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just fyi, the falcon killed himself 3 times that game
Dart!
Smash Master
First there's no need to point out how "bad" you are. just post vids and ask politely and i'm sure a good marth will give advice.
Ok here we go...
Spacing: You want to keep moving, but be careful. Falcon is fast as **** if he's moving in on you you'll want to be facing him. your fastest/best moves to stop him are in front of you (Fair, dtilt, utilt, jab, ftilt) Dash dance is as much your friend as it is your enemy here. if either one of you catches the other in their dashdance the stock is probably done
Edgeguarding: My forte, Don't immediately go for shieldbreaker or fsmash. that kills your options, wait til he's about to up b to decide what you want to do. A good option is to grab ledge and punish his up b lag...
WAY TOO MUCH FSMASH i could probably watch the vid with you without looking and tell you when you fsmash, that may be an exaggeration but seriously, that is the worst habit to get on. it's like a marth's drinking problem to be honest.
If you would like some more (maybe more in depth) critique i'll need a few more vids hopefully not on fountain.
Dart!
Smash Master
Doublepost
If you guys want to know how to fight puff, when my friend uploads the vids.
ill show you.
If you guys want to know how to fight puff, when my friend uploads the vids.
ill show you.
Thanks Dart! for responding...
I just watched the video again and yea.....way too much forward smash. I guess I just did it because I was nervous because I thought I was in a bad position( for example if I'm on a platform and the Falcon is below me).
I just watched the video again and yea.....way too much forward smash. I guess I just did it because I was nervous because I thought I was in a bad position( for example if I'm on a platform and the Falcon is below me).
Niko45
Smash Master
That'd be much appreciated...
I still QQ over that matchup, though it's getting better....slowly.
Dart!
Smash Master
i know exactly what you mean, i feel like if i remember right...these vids will be like my biggest contribution to the marth community.
You guys will see a lot of spacing and neutral mindgames go into play. I lose the set but my spacing was definitely on point. *although i make up for it and 2-0 his puff in grand finals but end up winning 3-2 vs his falcon)
Now all my friend has to do is not be a lazy ****er