EVO RULESET ANNOUNCED. The ruleset has been updated!

[SAMaine]

I have a question... Why should Evo take this board seriously when just just a few weeks ago there was a topic about hacking Brawl so that it plays like Melee? The topic was only just closed yesterday, but only due to a spammer. I'm dead serious... Why should Evo take this board seriously after something like that? I know you guys love your own ruleset, but that was for Melee, not Brawl. Brawl is an entirely different game, obviously proven by that post I linked earlier. Let it succeed of its own accord instead of living in Melee's shadow. If none of you can do that, then I'd rather you guys just play Melee.

 

[arrowhead]

My point was that, even if the items in one match should go strongly against you, in later matches you will eventually get the same treatment. You're focusing too much on the example and my use of "three" in the example rather than the actual argument the example is demonstrating.

Besides, even if you had to translate it literally, each heads would be one item spawn, not one match. The chances of it going significantly against you is very small.

ok, so you lose the finals of a tournament because of a random item spawn. then later it evens out when you beat your friend in a friendly. very fair

getting one item may allow you to control the field to get even more items. maybe if you look at it independently it would be small( not very small) but you have to take into account items allowing you to get more items. the first lucky pick can possibly determine the match

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I have a question... Why should Evo take this board seriously when just just a few weeks ago there was a topic about hacking Brawl so that it plays like Melee? The topic was only just closed yesterday, but only due to a spammer. I'm dead serious... Why should Evo take this board seriously after something like that? I know you guys love your own ruleset, but that was for Melee, not Brawl. Brawl is an entirely different game, obviously proven by that post I linked earlier. Let it succeed of its own accord instead of living in Melee's shadow. If none of you can do that, then I'd rather you guys just play Melee.

Luckily, Evo doesn't look to our General Boards to get a sense of our community as a whole. Unlike some other people.

Why would anybody honestly judge an entire forum, and the entire forum's userbase, off of a single thread that only contained a minority?

 

[thesage]

I have a question... Why should Evo take this board seriously when just just a few weeks ago there was a topic about hacking Brawl so that it plays like Melee? The topic was only just closed yesterday, but only due to a spammer. I'm dead serious... Why should Evo take this board seriously after something like that? I know you guys love your own ruleset, but that was for Melee, not Brawl. Brawl is an entirely different game, obviously proven by that post I linked earlier. Let it succeed of its own accord instead of living in Melee's shadow. If none of you can do that, then I'd rather you guys just play Melee.

One topic depicts the entire community's viewpoint >_>;

 

[Watkins]

The law of averages?

Are you... serious?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for intellectual debate instead of just calling names and hurting feeings.

But man, that was something else.

My point was that, even if the items in one match should go strongly against you, in later matches you will eventually get the same treatment.

Hey, Maybe it'll rain ice cream from the sky because an ice cream truck flipped over and you'll suddenly find the $300 you spent to be able to participate just lying around on the floor after you lose the tournament because of some stupid random bs. That bad luck has to even out somehow right?

Things don't even themselves out, and losing a match because of random events like smash ball placing (THAT DON'T EVEN THEMSELVES OUT SO EVERYTHING IS FAIR REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE) is garbage. Do you think your "god" is controlling everything so it works out? Life doesn't work that way.

Hearing the logic of people like you is a necessary evil though, I'm sure there are people at EVO with stupid theories like that. By all means, continue.

Also, you're an idiot.

Couldn't resist. :suess:

 

[Sundown]

Ok lets try to explain why items should be banned from this point of view... have any of you played competitive Quake III? (or IV for that matter). If you have, you should know items are incredibly important and that they give you MAP CONTROL, (and map control means, more items, which means more kills, etc. etc.). The reason that competitive Quake is played with ITEMS ON IS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RANDOM. The specific TYPE OF ITEM APPEARS AT EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE EVERYTIME AT EXACTLY THE SAME INTERVAL. That means that players have to learn the map very good, they have to learn every possible root to every possible item, they have to learn the timing for EVERY ITEM and while playing they have to keep in mind said timer.

Now lets compare that to Brawl... NO, there is NO COMPARISON. Items in Brawl are TOTALLY RANDOM, there is no reward for spending x amount of hours learning all the secrets to item spawns, because they dont exist, it doesnt matter if i know exactly at what damage will a home run bat smash kill me from the center of FD, if theres no way to be sure that i get that item except hoping that it spawns near me and not near my opponent.

Items only add depth to a game when items work in a way that will give this game depth, and that doesnt work with Brawl, because they dont give depht to it, they take away from it. It would if there existed specified item spawn locations, and specified timing to them, then Brawl fights would be much more like Quake fights, with players fighting for map (in this case, stage control), and although it would be very weird, i think it would work and it would give the game depth, because you will have to worry about what you do, about what your opponent does, and at the same time keep in mind an internal timer in your head for the item spawns, and also fight for the control of the place the item will spawn in at the time you should.

NOW THAT would be giving depth to a game with items. What Brawl does, randomizing the hell out of everything, doesnt give depth, it removes from it.

Brawl should be played without items, and definetly without final smashes.

 

[metaXzero]

............What happened to good Smash?

 

[RDK]

Luckily, Evo doesn't look to our General Boards to get a sense of our community as a whole. Unlike some other people.

Why would anybody honestly judge an entire forum, and the entire forum's userbase, off of a single thread that only contained a minority?

But the sad fact of the matter is that the General Barwl forums DO accurately represent most of the Smash community at this point. Stupid posts, threads, and arguments are being made because 90% of the Brawl community are people who hopped on the bandwagon when Brawl came out. That' what will kill us in the end.

Just think what would happen if our community were made up of more people like AlphaZealot, or Nealdt, or HugS. Intelligent competitive smashers who know the ins and outs of their games. Smash could go a long ways with more competitive smashers, but unfortunately, we're the minority in this case.

 

[a77]

You'd be better off arguing your point on the SRK forums than here. They've made it clear they don't particularly care about the Smash Bros. community, so I doubt anyone with power over there is looking for advice here.

 

[MechaJesus]

ok, so you lose the finals of a tournament because of a random item spawn. then later it evens out when you beat your friend in a friendly. very fair

getting one item may allow you to control the field to get even more items. maybe if you look at it independently it would be small( not very small) but you have to take into account items allowing you to get more items. the first lucky pick can possibly determine the match

This is actually a pretty good argument, and something that was kind-of rolling around in the back of my mind, but I think I can beat it.

Obviously at the end of any finite length of trials you might end up with a lop-sided result. The problem you've stated is that a tournament doesn't go on forever but each match has a very finite length, so it's entirely possible that you could end up on the bad luck side of things.

Obviously this means sometimes you will end up on the good luck side of things too, but in this case you may be completely eliminated from a tournament due to really bad luck, which is seemingly an unfair punishment due to luck, whereas getting good luck will only advance you one round; the outcomes are not even, it seems.

First off, as to what you said about getting it back in a friendly... any specific kind of luck you have will be evened out eventually, too. As such, you could ignore your luck in friendlies and only count your luck in tournaments, to create a kind of "tournament luck." That tournament luck would also fall under the law of averages; not only are you going to get paid back for the bad luck you have overall, but you will also eventually break even on your tournament luck as well. There's no cosmic force that means you will have bad luck in tournaments and good luck in friendlies; everything will be even in the long term.

That still doesn't answer another point you had though; That the punishment for having radically bad luck in a tourney doesn't quite match up to the payback for having radically good luck in a tourney. Getting radically bad luck means you lose, while getting radically good luck just means you move on a round and have the chance to win; it does not guarantee a win.

To this I'd say that kind of radical bad luck that decides an entire match is rare. Once again, I guesstimated a minimum of 27 item spawns during any matchup with the EVO ruleset. I'll use the coin flip example again, even though it's extremely unfair (I'll explain why in the next paragraph). The chances of you getting 1 head (1 bad item spawn) is 50%. The chances of you getting 2 in a row is 1/4, so 25%. The chances of three in a row are 1/8, so 12.5%... four = 1/16 or 6.25%... five = 1/32 or 3.13%... Not good odds. Plus you'll be getting good items at times too, which will offset some of the bad luck you're having.

I'd also that that is unfair because to call getting a good item handed to you in Brawl a 50/50 proposition is really unfair. The chances that a good item spawns - there are only maybe 4 really powerful items on that item list - is not great. Then there is the chance that it spawns right next to your enemy, which is also not great. Then there is the chance that it spawns when you're busy with something like recovering, or in some situation where you cannot possibly stall your opponent and fight him for the item, which is increasingly not good. The classic "smash ball spawns in front of my opponent when I was recovering" example is not really likely. I doubt it will happen enough to really decide a 3/5 match. That'd be like saying poker is all about luck because you could possibly get enough good cards that you'll win the world series of poker despite being a scrub; when has that ever happened? The existence of poker "pros" who rank high in every major worldwide poker tournament is a testament to that fact.



To your second point, that getting an item gives you an advantage as to getting another item... That has a lot to do with game mechanics and strategy and less to do with probability, for sure, so I don't want to get too into it here. I'd file that one with the other argument that Red Darkstar Kirby made, as being an argument against items other than the one I'm trying to refute here. Still, I think it is certainly skill-based whether you can dodge an item or not. I'm also not convinced that this itemset on medium items has both items spawning quickly enough and enough powerful items for a player to control the game solely based on item posession. (Like Quake 3 matches are often about map control and possession of all the good weapons; I do NOT think an items tournament will break down into a 2d version of that.)

 

[Crizthakidd]

roooooooooooofffffffffffffllllllllllll

spearpillarz,75m,newpork city, pit only, smash balls and golden hammers on high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! woot?

evo.. u let me down

 

[Grunt]

I call shenanigans.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

LMFAO hahahahahhahahaha

Despite these being beta, these will mostly likely be the final ruleset minus a few tweaks in the next week. We just wanted to put them out there so people can discuss and make valid points.

Arguing in this thread in a non-civil manner will get you a ban ( no warnings required.)

Evo Brawl Beta Ruleset Revision 16
These rules are tentative and subject to change at any time.

First game of a match to be played on Evo Custom Map. Players can decide to play on any map, if both players agree.
Excessive stalling or abusing terrain to not engage the enemy is not prohibited, and can be enforced by a tournament director only. This will result in a loss of the match.
Losing player can pick a new stage or new character, not both.
Winner keeps character (users of Samus/Zamus, Zelda/Shiek, and Pokemon Trainer are currently ALLOWED to change which character/mode they start in even after a win) but must select character/mode before other player has to choose stage/character.
2 Stock, 3 Min timer, 3/5 Games
Items on medium spawn.
Sudden Death will decide the outcome of the game.
Allowed Items: Banana Peel, Unira, Spring, Mr. Saturn, Green Shell, Smoke Ball, Freezie, Super Scope, Sandbag, Food, Screw Attack, Warp Star, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Beam Sword, Baseball Bat, Lip's Stick, Star Rod, Hothead, Smash Ball, Ray Gun, Pitfall, Cracker Launcher, Motion-Sensor Bomb, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Bumper, Blast Box, Franklin Badge.
Banned Stages: New Pork City, Hyrule Temple, Warioware, Spear Pillar, Flat Zone 2, Original Mario Brothers, Mushroomy Kingdom, Norfair.

The official evo stage will be up soon also so people can start messing with it (its being tested was we speak). If you want to test the stage, you can message me and ill tell you where to get it.

ROFL

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatmanonice: Certain One Hit KO final Smashes can be comboed into. Also, what are you gonna do when the opponent has a Final Smash if he's ahead? You can't just sit there and wait for him to screw up. He can camp the time away. Final Smashes have invincibility on activation, which means that if you approach, even if you throw out a move, they could just go invincible and kill you.

Not to mention that certain Final Smashes take forever to run out. Even if you manage to dodge every single hit from Volt Tackle, Snake's FS and Super Sonic, they could actually win the match by timing it out using the FS.

Which is why the matches should be longer and why there should be 3-4 stocks. This is also why I often argue against people using Final Destination all the time when they do decide to use final smashes. If Wario or Sonic uses their Final Smash on that stage, for example, you're pretty much screwed because there is literally no place to run. On stages like Bridge of Eldin though, for example, you can sometimes trick your opponent into accidently killing themselves off the side.

As mentioned in my previous post, smash balls appear less often when there are more items turned on so there is a chance that they wouldn't even appear in a match especially if the items were turned on low instead of medium. If they do appear then that's a bridge the person will have to cross kind of like in online matches where you have to fight a character your character has a disadvantage against (which is sort of the irony of many of the posts of this thread since people who play Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are told to suck it up and deal with it all the time). I suppose Final Smashes could be categorized into tiers too and people would have to take that into consideration.

It's just one tournament and it's not like it dictates how all others are played. If you ask me, people should go to that forum and express their concerns like Samurai Panda has instead of pissing and moaning about it here. Really, if things don't change, I think people should still go so that Smash isn't dropped all together from the event. After that, you guys will have, what, 6 months to convince them of changing the rules for next year's event? The life of this game will probably be just as long as Melee's so this isn't the only oppurtunity. I personally think that's how this problem started; not enough of the smash board "higher ups" were involved in dictating how Brawl would be played during this event earlier on. For example, Samurai Panda just set up an account there (I believe) just yesterday. Also, has this happened in the past? If so, why did no one forsee this?

Still, I think people are handling this completely the wrong way and I think it reflects badly on the Smash community because of all the "scrub" talk and how so many people seems to be royally pissed off about one tournament. As I said earlier, Smash can be played in more then one way and those that don't play a certain way shouldn't be down right hated. I just thought of something... in the future, why not have two divisions? One with items and one without? Evo seems set on using items in some form so the option should be left open so that neither side of the smash community is completely isolated especially if Evo is as big of an event as people are making it out to be.

 

[MechaJesus]

The law of averages?

Are you... serious?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for intellectual debate instead of just calling names and hurting feeings.

But man, that was something else.



Hey, Maybe it'll rain ice cream from the sky because an ice cream truck flipped over and you'll suddenly find the $300 you spent to be able to participate just lying around on the floor after you lose the tournament because of some stupid random bs. That bad luck has to even out somehow right?

Things don't even themselves out, and losing a match because of random events like smash ball placing (THAT DON'T EVEN THEMSELVES OUT SO EVERYTHING IS FAIR REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU BELIEVE) is garbage. Do you think your "god" is controlling everything so it works out? Life doesn't work that way.

Hearing the logic of people like you is a necessary evil though, I'm sure there are people at EVO with stupid theories like that. By all means, continue.

Also, you're an idiot.

Couldn't resist. :suess:

You're just denying a fact of the universe.

All luck averages out over time. As you run a trial with probabilities for certain outcomes, the more times you run the trial, the closer each result gets to it's expected outcome.

If you roll a 20 sided die again and again, the mean of your results will ALWAYS approach 10. It will always approach 10. Even if you roll 10 million times and get 20 every time (Probability of essentially 0%), if you keep rolling it will eventually even out.

I don't know why you're talking about God or anything. I'm not saying that there is some cosmic force that evens everything out. In fact, saying that luck does not average out over time is exactly that expression; that some cosmic force means that your coin always lands on heads, or lands on heads more often than it does tails. It isn't like that. If you keep flipping the coin it will even out eventually.

Hey, Maybe it'll rain ice cream from the sky because an ice cream truck flipped over and you'll suddenly find the $300 you spent to be able to participate just lying around on the floor after you lose the tournament because of some stupid random bs. That bad luck has to even out somehow right?

Quit trolling. That's a complete *******ization of what I said and has nothing to do with the law of averages.

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

*sigh* Ridiculous.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

I can't believe there is anyone arguing FOR these rules.

 

[All_Usernames_Are_Taken]

If it's in the game then unless it is blatantly broken like akuma in super turbo then we don't ban it. For example most people here on smashboards hate smashballs in tournaments because they think it gives the lesser skilled player an undeserved chance to win but if you are truly the better player then you would be able to get the smashball before they do.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

QED.

ITT: Players who bawwww about not knowing how to get the smash ball.

 

[Crooked Crow]

i think i am going to have to kill evo

 

[MechaJesus]

I can't believe there is anyone arguing FOR these rules.

FYI, I just want to point out that I'm not really arguing for these rules specifically, although I like them better than the usual no items fair.

Ray gun, at the very least, definitely needs to be turned off. I'd also turn off the hammers; they don't really add anything strategically interesting. Smash Ball makes it too much about picking a character who has a good FS and can get the small ball well, so I'd take it out. I'd also consider taking out the home-run bat, because it's too ****ing strong when thrown and can easily KO, removing weaknesses from characters like Meta-Knight and Sonic who are lacking in KO power and making them extraordinarily good

 

[Fatmanonice]

I can't believe there is anyone arguing FOR these rules.

From the look of things, most people are arguing for them to be changed in some form. For example, I think the matches should be longer, have items set on low, not have a custom stage, and there should be more stock.

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

What I'm going to do is pick zelda and hyrule temple. I'm going to run around until sudden death and then use dins fire to KO. God, I'm pro.

 

[Crooked Crow]

What I'm going to do is pick zelda and hyrule temple. I'm going to run around until sudden death and then use dins fire to KO. God, I'm pro.

not of a bomb-omb appears and slaps you in the face

 

[thumbswayup]

This is the death of smash.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ah...the advantages of being British ^_^
I'm not playing anything stupid like that. If I stick money into a tournament, I do NOT want to lose thanks to a hammer.
The stages aren't that bad...
BUT THE ITEMS!

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

not of a bomb-omb appears and slaps you in the face

No, I'm partly Irish, so I have luck on my side. Only Irish people will be able to win Evo tournaments.

 

[Empy]

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

QED.

ITT: Players who bawwww about not knowing how to get the smash ball.

Seriously, there is no1, not even the bootchicks at the E3 demo, that fails in getting a smashball. It's actually so darn easy, you can get it when it appears right in front of you. A mediocre to badly skilled player can make it impossible to get for the best players, just by getting lucky.

So yeah, you and the idiot you were quoting are pretty much the people you described with your ITT.

Also ITT; players who don't know the tilts of their main, trying to teach 8 year long veterans how to play.

 

[Zelc]

You're just denying a fact of the universe.

All luck averages out over time. As you run a trial with probabilities for certain outcomes, the more times you run the trial, the closer each result gets to it's expected outcome.

If you roll a 20 sided die again and again, the mean of your results will ALWAYS approach 10. It will always approach 10. Even if you roll 10 million times and get 20 every time (Probability of essentially 0%), if you keep rolling it will eventually even out.

This is misleading. Yes, if you roll it enough times, it will eventually even out. However, we don't just care about the mean of a statistical distribution; we also care about variance (and skewness and kurtosis etc, but I'll skip those for now). Items just add another source of variance into the equation that has arguably a small relationship with skill. If you're up 2 stocks to 1 and you get them to 100% before dying, and while you're flying off the screen a smash ball appears, you've probably just lost the game no matter how good you are. If that was the fifth game of the match, the trials end and the law of averages no longer holds. You've just been eliminated.

It's well-known that people don't like variance or risk. Given a choice between a million dollars and a 50% chance at winning 2 million dollars, most people take the million dollars. Much of modern finance is built around the fact that people are risk averse. I don't see how people would like the chance that no matter how good they are, they could lose a round because a bob-omb appeared right when they threw out an attack and they die.

By the way, the expected value of a 20-sided die is 10.5, not 10.

Signed up just to respond to this .

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

This is misleading. Yes, if you roll it enough times, it will eventually even out. However, we don't just care about the mean of a statistical distribution; we also care about variance (and skewness and kurtosis etc, but I'll skip those for now). Items just add another source of variance into the equation that has arguably a small relationship with skill. If you're up 2 stocks to 1 and you get them to 100% before dying, and while you're flying off the screen a smash ball appears, you've probably just lost the game no matter how good you are. If that was the fifth game of the match, the trials end and the law of averages no longer holds. You've just been eliminated.

It's well-known that people don't like variance or risk. Given a choice between a million dollars and a 50% chance at winning 2 million dollars, most people take the million dollars. Much of modern finance is built around the fact that people are risk averse. I don't see how people would like the chance that no matter how good they are, they could lose a round because a bob-omb appeared right when they threw out an attack and they die.

By the way, the expected value of a 20-sided die is 10.5, not 10.

Signed up just to respond to this .

Well said. I signed up at Evo, so that I can laugh at their rules.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

^^ Looks like someone else knows their Game Theory/Probability, kudos for catching the expected value of 20, totally forgot about that myself.

 

[Yuna]

MechaJesus, seriously, all of your points have already been soundly defeated several times over time and again. Look up any thread on items in Competitive play in the recent months and you'll see that they raged on for pages and pages and each of your arguments were defeated.

It all boils down to:
* Randomness is good if you want variety
* Randomness is not good if you want to measure who's the most skilled because then you wnt luck to have as little impact as possible, especially in a Competitive video game (it's not Poker)
* Items = A lot of randomness
* Therefore, Items = Bad for Competitive play
* The fact that items can determine the outcome a match means that they will

How is it fair if you're playing a championship final, last match, last stock and a lucky item spawn wins your opponent the match when you were clearly ahead? What, are you supposed to use the Law of Luck Evening Out (or whatever you called it) and try to make it to another championship final and hope that the items are all of a sudden on your side?

Entire tourneys can and most probably will be decided by lucky Final Smash (for example) spawns. Someone who's obviously more skilled will lose to someone of less skill as long as that someone can handle items. Heck, what if two people of equal skill face off? It's a stalemate and they're both down to their last stock, 0%, the fight will rage on down to the last Smash at high %, but wait! Final Smash! Wham! Someone just lost!

What if the skill gap isn't that large? Still, the less skilled player might win due to sheer dumb luck alone.

Items should not be on in Competitive play. SRK supposedly consists of Competitive fighting game players. How would they like it if we in Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike introduced items? Randomly spawning objects that can have huge consequences to the gameplay? If all Super Arts were limited to Super Art Balls (you must possess one to perform one... and they spawn randomly!)... and all Super Arts were unblockable (because almost every single Final Smash in Brawl is unblockable)? If a randomly spawning item could spawn in the middle of your combo, either enhancing it greatly (heck, Golden Hammer right after I fair!), screwing it up completely or actually killing you (heck, normal Hammer right when I'm about to fall off the stage without a 2nd jump!).

So what if luck averages out? Why should we let sheer dumb luck decide the outcome of entire matches/sets? Say 50% of all matches at EVO are decided by sheer dumb luck. Wow! What a great tournament! Say 25% of luck befell a small number of people (6) because they were just luckier than the rest. Even better! Say the final set was decided by sheer dumb luck. Great, now let's wait for the next EVO and see if the same two people make it to the final and the loser can win that EVO with sheer dumb luck (because it evens out in the end!).

Why... should... we... allow... sheer... dumb... luck... to... decide... the... outcome... of... matches... at all?!

Answer that question! Even if it evens out, why allow it to happen at all in tournaments with serious money on the line, where skill should be the most important factor?!

 

[SamuraiPanda]

In summary MechaJesus, you are correct. However, you are forgetting one major detail: it is the law of AVERAGES. Without a proper testing sample, you will not get accurate details, because in a very small sample, there will always be discrepancies. Try flipping a coin 6 times. Its not 50% heads. A smash game with items is much like that because its never 50% good luck for both players.

 

[flyinfilipino]

^OMG don't explode (Yuna)!

 

[Aesir]

Items promote the random bull crap any competitive player would hate. Seriously I'm fairly sure the back room has more then enough evidence to back it up.

All items does is shows who's at the right place at the right time. >_>

 

[Grunt]

@Yuna

He wont answer.
>.>
<.<
hmmm...

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Yuna=Right

MechaJesus=Pwned

 

[~^.NoiR.^~]

You guys should stop discussing the rules and go work on your running techniques on Hyrule Temple.

 

[MechaJesus]

This is misleading. Yes, if you roll it enough times, it will eventually even out. However, we don't just care about the mean of a statistical distribution; we also care about variance (and skewness and kurtosis etc, but I'll skip those for now). Items just add another source of variance into the equation that has arguably a small relationship with skill. If you're up 2 stocks to 1 and you get them to 100% before dying, and while you're flying off the screen a smash ball appears, you've probably just lost the game no matter how good you are. If that was the fifth game of the match, the trials end and the law of averages no longer holds. You've just been eliminated.

But that's a problem with smash balls as a tourney-legal item, and not a problem with items on all-together.

Certainly long-term you will equal out, in a future tournament, so I don't think this example refutes me. Still, I think it'd be simpler to just turn smash balls off if you think they are too powerful. (There's an important difference between the actual Law of Averages and the various fallacious interpretations of it, which comes into play here. I'm not trying to say each tournament match will be 100% even.)

(As a side-note: You can put it in any situation you want, though, and it'll still even out. Sooner or later you will be on the other side of that ****ty setup you described.)

It's well-known that people don't like variance or risk. Given a choice between a million dollars and a 50% chance at winning 2 million dollars, most people take the million dollars. Much of modern finance is built around the fact that people are risk averse. I don't see how people would like the chance that no matter how good they are, they could lose a round because a bob-omb appeared right when they threw out an attack and they die.

I'm certainly not trying to say that all items are should be on; bom-ombs are one of those convenient straw-man outliers that people always use to argue against items because simply luck with them can radically change the course of the game.

I personally believe that there are certain items that do add interesting strategic setups to the game, and that these items are acceptable, but that's not really relevant to my argument here.

By the way, the expected value of a 20-sided die is 10.5, not 10.

D'oh. Kudos on catching this.

 

[Kabii!]

XD, At a tourney people should just write their names down on a slip of paper, put it into a hat, and who ever has their name drawn gets 1st place, and the prize money. That makes just as much sense as this ruleset.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

You guys should stop discussing the rules and go work on your running techniques on Hyrule Temple.

QFT

10Squirtles

^ I lol'd