Extreme Freeze Frames - Sakurai's idea of "Making the game slower"?

[Yuna]

So a lot of people apparentely complained about SSBM being too fast. Obviously, they were newbies and couldn't play the game as fast as the others and thus just whined about it.

I personally think SSBM was fine speedwise. So what if the pros are really, really fast? I don't think they're that fast, but that's because I've come to a level where I'm relatively fast myself and don't get outsped by every Bowser and Ganondorf out there.

But, Sakurai promised to make SSBB slower. We don't know exactly what's been done to make it slower except for one thing:
Extreme Freeze Frames

What is Freeze Frames, you ask? Freeze frames occur when certain things happen. For example, in SSBM, every time you're hit by a move, there are a set number of frames (dependant on move) during which the game is "frozen" (hence the term Freeze Frames).

These frames are the frames during which one can DI. For example, hit someone with Sheik's fair. They go flying off almost immediately. Now hit someone with Bowser's forward smash. You can tell a difference. It takes longer to fly off from Bowser's forward smash because it's got more freeze frames.

The problem is that it was evident that freeze frames were excessive already in the first trailer, like when Link's dair hit Mario or whoever inside of that castle. Then, in the second trailer, we got to see more ingame footage.

And it was horrible. Pretty much every single move generated tons of freeze frames.

What's the problem with freeze frames?
1: The more freeze frames, the slower the matches become because it takes so long between when a hit connects and you can move again
2: The more freeze frames, the easier it becomes to combo someone. You don't need reaction speed to combo from those jabs anymore because the difference between it they shield your jab and if your jab connects is so huge it's almost impossible to miss
3: It's ugly.
4: Watch me DI every single smash perfectly.

Remember in SSB? The huge freeze frames there? Well, SSBB's got almost that many freeze frames on certain moves, primarily aerials and smashes. Some tilts and smashes don't have that many freeze frames (watch Zero-Suit Samus fight. She goes from tilt to dsmash almost instantaneously without many freeze frames, even on the dsmash).

 

[REØ]

Wow I never even realized this great find Yuna, and yes I bet almost everyone is going to start DI'ing every attack and the battles will be a lot longer.

 

[extragrandeben]

Posting under wrong account. My bad. Don't want to post something contraversial and have my friend's account here take the blame for it. Carry on.

 

[S_B]

So a lot of people apparentely complained about SSBM being too fast. Obviously, they were newbies and couldn't play the game as fast as the others and thus just whined about it.

Actually, I took issue with the speed because I'm the only hardcore gamer of my group and thus am the only one who has the reflex to bring characters up to their full potential.

The end result? Even when people win, they know I'm "playing down to their level" so it makes it a hollow victory for them. I play as Bowser to level the field and I still win most of the time, but it gives them more of a chance.

I'd take either a slower game or online play, but I'll also happily take both (constant available competition + friends willing to play against me = win/win).

As for the problem, it's still WAY too early to say that this will be an issue. Remember that this is a VERY early build of SSBB and there's no guarantee that any of what we're seeing here will even be in the final game.

 

[A-Laon]

Ouch. This doesn't look too good. It's always bad when the developers of a competitive game start pampering the noobs, but I didn't expect anything quite this horrid, even from Nintendo.

Oops. I let it slip.

 

[Chuckles]

I think the more freeze frames make the game look more unique. Even though its probably the most unique it can get, but i also dont like that it makes things slower and more time to react.

 

[Yuna]

Want it more unique? Let's make it so that if Roy and Marth are standing right next to each other when they taunt (and they do it at around the same time), they'll kiss.

That's unique. And at least it won't make the game worse.

 

[Blight]

I noticed this as well, and it really reminds a lot of Super Smash Bros. for the N64.

 

[S_B]

Let's make it so that if Roy and Marth are standing right next to each other when they taunt (and they do it at around the same time), they'll kiss.

You mean Marth is a guy? WHAT?!?

I don't see the harm in slowing it down. How does it hurt good players? Did you suck at SSB64? No? Then why is this such a detriment to SSBB?

All it means is that people with slower reflexes will still be able to enjoy the game and will be able to compete a little better. Speaking as a guy who hasn't played Melee in months because no one else will play against me, I am TOTALLY fine with that.

Right now, SSBM is like fencing: once in a while, a friend who knows how to "fence" will visit and we'll get some good matches going. Any other time, Melee gathers dust.

Let me say this, if you have a group of friends who are all about the same skill level, then I envy the HELL out of you. I'd want nothing more than to have at least one player who I can play against in regular duels just to improve my skills against.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

I don't mind that Brawl is hitting a middle ground between Melee and 64....but there is a problem. All my roommates hate Melee, so all they do is play 64, and they kick my ***. Ness and his stupid Dair lock, Kirby's.....existence, and the slow really hurt me, but i got used to it. Just that now they're all bashing on me for hating 64 when Brawl is going towards it.....words hurt too.....

 

[S_B]

I'd hope that Brawl can find a comfortable middle ground between the two games.

Out of the two, I still prefer 64.

 

[Artistry]

I don't believe they should adhere to what the noobs want. Although, they could make a freeze-frame mode where it would be slower, and a classic Melee version for the pros.

This shouldn't take too much longer. In theory they would just have to change the values of the freeze-frames.

But as far as just changing it to slower, I'm against that all the way(maybe make short-hops easier though )

 

[zKillah]

I doubt the dev team recognizes the difference in skill between the millions of people that play the game, and doubt even more that they will have different modes of play to pander to all of the different groups. They will attempt to make a game that appeals to as many people as possible. When brawl comes out everyone should have to adjust to it, and learn to play at whatever speed it is.

 

[Takalth]

I noticed the freeze frames, and besides the DI issue, I don't think the game will play as smoothly if they implement it.

One of the strongest points of smash is the most incredibly smooth gameplay I've ever seen (except for G&W, but he's supposed to be that way). I can't possibly imagine maintaining that with the size of freeze frames I saw in the trailer.

Now, one intent (which I think would actually be kind of cool) would be to make it easier to tech against edge guarders. I don't say this to favor the noobs, but to favor chasing people off the edge instead of hanging out safely on the stage (i.e. enhanced aerial combat). I was actually disappointed to see how little combat happens off the stage in pro games compared to the techniques me and my friends use.

Having said that, though, the increased freeze frames would be massive overkill with too many side effects if that was the only intent. I'm just bringing out what I see as the one positive side.

 

[shinehex]

While watching the trailer it really did remind me of n64 smash with the freeze frames. This is not really a bad thing but I hope it does not make the game feel like the old school smash

 

[S_B]

I doubt the dev team recognizes the difference in skill between the millions of people that play the game, and doubt even more that they will have different modes of play to pander to all of the different groups. They will attempt to make a game that appeals to as many people as possible. When brawl comes out everyone should have to adjust to it, and learn to play at whatever speed it is.

QFT

That's the way I see it.

And to the people who are like "OMG! Noobs ruined SSBB!", if you're ACTUALLY good at the SSB franchise, then what are you worried about?

Let me give you a hint, if you lose at Brawl because it's slower, then YOU are the noob.

I know it's tough love, but it's a FACT: a skilled player will be able to adjust to any SSB engine.

 

[j0e w00dy]

just last nite i played melee and 64 with my bro
i literally owned him with almost every character in the game in melee
when we kicked on the 64...i barely won at all...it was about a 50/50 toss up
honestly i can say that was probly more enjoyable...
i hate 64 compared to melee but having a leveled playing field is more enjoyable for me
if my brother was as good as me at melee i think id have a lot more fun

They will attempt to make a game that appeals to as many people as possible. When brawl comes out everyone should have to adjust to it, and learn to play at whatever speed it is.

thats what i was thinking exactly...they want to appeal to every1
thats the whole philosophy behind the Wii
theres going to be a huge learning curve neways...the wii is completely diff
and now its online...with all these things changing the game has got to change some

 

[S_B]

I'm not worried about SSBB being dulled down in skill.

After literally YEARS of playing SSB64, my friends and I were STILL discovering new nuances about the engine.

I'm quite certain that Brawl will be just as deep as the previous games, if not MUCH deeper.

 

[A-Laon]

I am more than tolerant of the game's skill gap being tightened in order to bring an enjoyable, competitive experience to everyone, even if it does cost me some of my edge; I'm just not fond of what is apparently the chosen method. Freeze framing murders the fluidity and flow of the combat scene, making the game both look and feel choppy, as if it were spasmodically running at a lower average fps. The gamespeed could simply be lowered the slightest bit in order to make that glaring difference between different people's reaction times, but to temporarily freeze the action for a split second is just a more cumbersome and ugly way of achieving what would be the same result. More even playing field? Brilliant. Freeze framing? Hell no.

 

[Takalth]

A few things to consider:
First, when people talk about noobs ruining the game, the concern (which I believe to be a valid concern) is that the game will become less skill-based. I never played SSB64, but from reading the forums (this thread in particular) I get the impression that it didn't hit a skill level on par with Melee. You say that a skilled player can adjust to any smash engine, but the real question is how much skill that a smash engine will allow. If you took a party game like monkeyball or Mario party, your ability to get better at the game dies quickly (somebody who has played for 1000 hours isn't really going to be any better than somebody who's played for 100).

Now, as to appealing to as large of an audience as possible, smash already does that. The amount of learning before you have fun in SSBM is very tiny, thus, casual gamers love it. However, the ridiculously high potential skill level in the game is makes it equally appealing to hardcore competitive gamers.

Really, the smallest audience is highly skilled people who can't find other highly skilled people, but those of you who are in that situation are talking as if you're part of the majority.

I have to disagree strongly with the statement above that the dev team is unaware of the skill differences of millions of players. Smash is the NUMBER 1 title on the gamecube, and they would have to be absolute idiots not to spend a significant amount of time on websites and forums, finding out about these millions of smashers.

 

[Ryu777]

guys, I really wouldnt worry too much about the fluidity of the fighting going down, the only ones that looked really bad were smsash attacks, which already have quite a few in melee (but many didnt, like if you look at links u-smash or zamus' d-smash) and multihit attacks, which have always been easy to DI out of anyway. From what I could tell, all of the cvharacters were jumping and running at the speed that they normally do in melee, nothing close to 64, where evryone, even fox, jumped and ran really slow. Also, I dont really see too much wrong with making maybe the hardest aspect of advanced play a little eaier, I mean, without this site and getting into advanced playu, I never could've di'd in melee.

 

[usea]

I mentioned this in the trailer breakdown thread right after it was released. It's also one of my big worries about the game, I hope it turns out okay.

Smash_Brother, your argument isn't making much sense. First you say that you're glad for the extra freeze frames because you play against people not as good as you, and this will help level the playing field. Basically, you said that the game is better off being less worthy of competition, because you can't find anybody to play against.

Then you go on to contradict yourself, saying that extra freeze frames won't dumb down the game and that if you lose you're a noob. So which is it? Are your friends who suck at the game still going to be losing against you or not? And if you can't beat your friends who suck, why is that BETTER for the game?

A better player should beat worse players. Dumbing down the game is not a good thing.

 

[cooler1339]

N64 to me was more fun. In N64 when you UpSmash with link all 3 hits would hit and you could combo after it because of the freeze frames. In melee the first hit makes them fly away and the other 2 swings are meaningless(Most of the time). As you seen in the Trailer Kirby's F.air hits 3 times now, and most likely will if the opponent was at 100%. In melee it was possible, But if they are over like 30% the other hits were not useful. Most likely the last hit does the most knockback and would be the most useful hit.

Another point would be Links Forward smash in Melee. Early on it could hit twice but that ends when they gain %. The second hit is the finisher and the first can only kill someone at like 140%. If there were freeze frames you could do both hits without the second being useless.

I would never say Melee took more skill than the N64 version. Any character could kill someone in 1 combo in the N64 version, but it was hard. Link and Samus were called bottom tier in N64, but if you could kill someone in one combo the tier list is gone.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Yeah, that's been worrying me as well. Hopefully it's just on the characters we saw in the trailer.

 

[FalseFalco]

SSB just had a lot of lag on ground moves, but SSBB looks like tons of hitstun and freeze frames. Hopefully crouch cancelling will counter some of this crap and wario's choppyness can be a throwback to the old (real) speed of fighting.

Watch Fox become utterly MORE unstoppable due to perfect and consistant smash DI.

 

[M3tr01D]

Link's upsmash didn't always hit three times, vs jiggly puff it knocked her too high to get all three hits, and if you were good at DI you could get out after one hit.

Samus is considered bottom of the list because she can't do those combos without a significant stage usage, such as the wall in hyrule castle. Link was also considered bottom because of his ability to recover, not his lack of combos. One shield grab and link was then put at a major disadvantage. Couple that with the fact that both samus and link had really slow rolls and really slow shield grabs made them bottom. The tier list won't just disappear just cause you can do a good combo.



On the topic though, you guys sound really depressed about how they are ruining the gameplay based on a trailer of the game before it even comes out? Melee was WORLDS different from n64 smash, but the good players carried over from n64 to melee. don't you think the same thing will happen with melee and brawl?

 

[usea]

N64 to me was more fun. In N64 when you UpSmash with link all 3 hits would hit and you could combo after it because of the freeze frames. In melee the first hit makes them fly away and the other 2 swings are meaningless(Most of the time). As you seen in the Trailer Kirby's F.air hits 3 times now, and most likely will if the opponent was at 100%. In melee it was possible, But if they are over like 30% the other hits were not useful. Most likely the last hit does the most knockback and would be the most useful hit.

Another point would be Links Forward smash in Melee. Early on it could hit twice but that ends when they gain %. The second hit is the finisher and the first can only kill someone at like 140%. If there were freeze frames you could do both hits without the second being useless.

I would never say Melee took more skill than the N64 version. Any character could kill someone in 1 combo in the N64 version, but it was hard. Link and Samus were called bottom tier in N64, but if you could kill someone in one combo the tier list is gone.

The freeze frames have nothing to do with multiple moves connecting. The entire game freezes during freeze frames. The only result is that players have more time to react between moves. It has no other consequences at all.

 

[Kroy]

I think the game's slower for a few reasons.

1. Chances are these are not masters of brawl. Ever watch trailers for other games. The person playing is totally pathetic, but that's do to showing off the game versus just showing off your skills. It's a lot easier to showcase what is happening if the characters aren't flying around everywhere. Whose to say those weren't all CPU's playing? That's as slow as it gets in SSBM

2. One reason the game is probably going to be slower is the need to tech down the game for online play. The faster paced a game the greater the mismatch when playing online. Slowing things down allows for the creators to minamlize the effects of lag.

3. There apparently are more freeze frames after moves, but there already is for a good number of attacks with noticable freeze frames so why not here. Since the game is teched down, making the attacks slower makes sense since it doesn't allow a faster character to effortlessly combo another slower characters.

I like it personally. It reminds me of those old days playing SSB64, and running around spamming DownB with Pikachu. Good times, good time indeed.

 

[Chuckles]

Maybe the freeze frames in the air will be compinsated by being able to L-cancel easier or just being able to continue aerial attacks faster. Right after you land you wont have much lag. Idk just a thought.

 

[Pikaville]

I just hope it plays as smooth as melee.I also hope they don't take anything thats in melee out.(apart from stages or characters cuz I don't really care about that)

 

[A-Laon]

Maybe the freeze frames in the air will be compinsated by being able to L-cancel easier or just being able to continue aerial attacks faster. Right after you land you wont have much lag. Idk just a thought.

If I'm not mistaken, it has been concluded from analysis of the trailer that the effects of L-Cancellation have become the virtual norm of Brawl's air combat, i.e. far less to virtually no lag from landing aerials. Still, that's just speculation based on a preview of the unfinished game, so don't quote me on it.

 

[S_B]

Then you go on to contradict yourself, saying that extra freeze frames won't dumb down the game and that if you lose you're a noob. So which is it? Are your friends who suck at the game still going to be losing against you or not? And if you can't beat your friends who suck, why is that BETTER for the game?

I didn't say they won't "dumb down" the game. I expect them to dumb it down a bit.

What I'm addressing is the overall concern that the game will somehow lack the depth of previous SSB games despite the fact that we've already seen techniques in the trailer which indicate that a wavedash has been added to the game as an official move and now we have the mechanic of crawling in addition to some sort of backwards dodge.

From the looks of it, Brawl will have the most depth of the franchise to date, freeze frames and all.

On the subject of skill, how the hell are people still afraid of the skill gap being closed? Didn't anyone here play and master SSB64? Do you REMEMBER what the gameplay was like?

You out-skilled your opponent by knowing their strategies and countering them accordingly, tricking them into exposing themselves for an attack and taking advantage of it when they did.

You did more to out-think your opponent than you did to out reflex them, true, but the skill is no less worthy of praise.

If you want to beat your foes with reflex alone, go play Street Fighter Superalphathreeomegaturbo.

2. One reason the game is probably going to be slower is the need to tech down the game for online play. The faster paced a game the greater the mismatch when playing online. Slowing things down allows for the creators to minamlize the effects of lag.

I agree in full. If the game is going to be online, then the ultra-twitch gameplay of SSBM won't fly. I predicted this before we saw any gameplay footage, actually.

 

[Mic_128]

As I posted in another topic somewhere, One thing slower attacks do is allow better DI. For example, in NTSC it's near imposible to DI out of Samus' up-b or Zelda's Fsmash, but in PAL, you can, since the attack is a little slower (with a minor, very minor pause after each hit)

Personally I'm all for it. Besides, almost every good person knows how someone's going to DI and act appropriately. This just means that people are going to have to learn how their oponent will DI.

 

[Serpreme]

meh FF-Canceling.
Get use to it

 

[Takalth]

I didn't say they won't "dumb down" the game. I expect them to dumb it down a bit.

What I'm addressing is the overall concern that the game will somehow lack the depth of previous SSB games

How exactly are you defining "dumb down." To me, the definition of dumb down is to reduce the depth.

The only other definition I can think of would be to lighten the learning curve, but in a game where your moves are things like "forward B" can hardly have the learning curve lightened unless you reduce the number of moves or take away something critical to the gameplay like the double jump.

Now, to stem the flow of misinterpretations, I'm not predicting anything I said in the second paragraph, I'm trying to figure out how the phrase "dumb down" is being used.

 

[säpo.]

Freeze frames? Okay. DI? I don't get a crap what all those abbreviations mean.

 

[Takalth]

Freeze frames? Okay. DI? I don't get a crap what all those abbreviations mean.

DI, in its simplest form, means that if you are pushing a direction as you are hit, the direction you are pushing influences the direction the hit sends you. There is a lot more to it, though, such as smash DI, situations where it can and can't be used, DI used in teching, etc.

If you've mostly only spent time in the Brawl forums, this won't be the first time you see a term thrown out that you don't understand. Look at the stickies in the Melee forums and they should go over advanced techniques and terminology.

 

[ArcNatural]

I second this crap, this will make the game way too noob friendly by making everything easy to do (DI,combos), and it will ultimately lose many SSB series fans, because i know for a fact more people picked up the game because of Melee's speed and complexity

 

[Koga+]

I second this crap, this will make the game way too noob friendly by making everything easy to do (DI,combos), and it will ultimately lose many SSB series fans, because i know for a fact more people picked up the game because of Melee's speed and complexity

Agree 100%

 

[zKillah]

I'm not so sure that n00bs care too much about that kind of stuff. Sure, it will make it easier for them to learn if they want to get better, but four guys playing smash are going to have fun eiher way. It's not like they are going to become Smash Lords and start taking over tournaments.