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FALCON is not as bad as people make him out to be

Knee Of Justice!?

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
27
I dont get this falcon hateing i mean sure he was nerfed some what but his knee still hurts (and still makes my friends mad:chuckle:) also u almost have to relearn him i did and he is my fav person in the whole game overall i think he is one of the better fighters in smash he is defintly not bottom tier.

discuss
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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His priority is crap. His damage output is also bad. His follow-up options are bad. His grab range is bad. His approach tactics are bad. His recovery is bad. And his kill moves are all situational to the extreme.

So wait...tell me how he has anything that makes him better than anyone else. BESIDES running speed and taunts.
 

Knee Of Justice!?

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
27
ill agree his priority is baddddddddddddd but he is not the worst and i find he can combo fairly easely and his raptor boost is a great combo starter if u use it at the right time. yes i admit he has severe disadvantages but i just dont agree with a lot of people that think he is the worst brawler
 

Ghetto Soldier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
110
Location
San Diego, CA
His priority is crap. His damage output is also bad. His follow-up options are bad. His grab range is bad. His approach tactics are bad. His recovery is bad. And his kill moves are all situational to the extreme.

So wait...tell me how he has anything that makes him better than anyone else. BESIDES running speed and taunts.
im sry man but thats all bull****, yes falcons priority is crap but he still has kill moves, his grab range is the same his approach is a little weaker and all i see is you ***** that he has changed or you just suck with him. the knee still works but all you need to do is sweet spot it.
 

Knee Of Justice!?

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
27
im sry man but thats all bull****, yes falcons priority is crap but he still has kill moves, his grab range is the same his approach is a little weaker and all i see is you ***** that he has changed or you just suck with him. the knee still works but all you need to do is sweet spot it.
That was an amazing post ty:). people are just two mad about him not being as godly in brawl sure he has changed but that dosen't automaticaly make him bad
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
826
Location
Leesburg, VA
His priority is crap. His damage output is also bad. His follow-up options are bad. His grab range is bad. His approach tactics are bad. His recovery is bad. And his kill moves are all situational to the extreme.

So wait...tell me how he has anything that makes him better than anyone else. BESIDES running speed and taunts.
His recovery is bad?

lol...what are you talking about? Because that's just flat out wrong. Falcon's has a very, very good vertical recovery, and an average horizontal one. All around his recovery is GOOD.

Also, aside from bad priority, all of your points are wrong. His grab range is fine...lol. You don't just sit there and "grab" in brawl. You dash grab (which falcon is FINE at...absolutely fine), or you shield grab, which ANY character can do. How does that make the captain's grab range suck? For use in an actual match, grabbing works VERY well with the captain.

As for follow up attacks? You can only airdodge so fast. As soon as someones done airdodging you can easily hit them with you're second follow up move. Any falcon player can CONSISTENTLY HIT another player in the air after a down throw, simply because if you up air and then down air, up air and then back air, up air and then up air, or any combination of ANY of those aerials, the other player can't possibly airdodge both of them. And they can't block, obviously, because they're in the air.

Really, i agree that Falcon isn't anywhere near as good as he used to be and there are plenty of characters that can destroy him, but that's almost ALL because of bad priority. Not because of the points you made.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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His recovery is bad?

lol...what are you talking about? Because that's just flat out wrong. Falcon's has a very, very good vertical recovery, and an average horizontal one. All around his recovery is GOOD.
Distance isn't everything in recovery dude. Ganondorf's recovery was terrible in Melee, and it was one of the better ones in terms of raw distance. Sheik's recovery was one of the shorter ones in terms of distance, but considered really good. Get the idea?

Falcon's recovery is still very predictable. = bad. I really shouldn't have to explain from there.

Also, aside from bad priority, all of your points are wrong. His grab range is fine...lol. You don't just sit there and "grab" in brawl. You dash grab (which falcon is FINE at...absolutely fine), or you shield grab, which ANY character can do. How does that make the captain's grab range suck? For use in an actual match, grabbing works VERY well with the captain.
Falcon can't shieldgrab unless his opponent doesn't know what spacing is. His grab range really did get cut. You actually have to touch people with the grab it seems, rather than have a hitbox which extends slightly out from the fist.

You're better off faking people out with a pivot grab just for the purpose of increasing your grab range.

As for follow up attacks? You can only airdodge so fast. As soon as someones done airdodging you can easily hit them with you're second follow up move. Any falcon player can CONSISTENTLY HIT another player in the air after a down throw, simply because if you up air and then down air, up air and then back air, up air and then up air, or any combination of ANY of those aerials, the other player can't possibly airdodge both of them. And they can't block, obviously, because they're in the air.
His attacks send people too far for people to be reliably comboed anyway. You can't consistently hit people after a down throw....unless your opponent like doesn't do ANYTHING at all. You're underrating the air dodge system by quite a lot really. When someone air dodges to the ground, there is like...almost no lag. And that happens a lot because Falcon's attacks send people too far away to immediately follow up with anything else. And his ground game of course is lousy...

Ganondorf combos better than Falcon keep in mind. His techchase setup > any setup Falcon has. If you want to say Falcon can D-throw to U-air, Ganondorf can do that just as easily, but his U-air is significantly more powerful than Falcon's.

Falcon's attack speed also fails in almost all of his attacks except for the N-air (which has a fail hitbox, so you can't approach with it), the U-air, B-air, and his Jab combo, so all in all he's really easy to read.

Really, i agree that Falcon isn't anywhere near as good as he used to be and there are plenty of characters that can destroy him, but that's almost ALL because of bad priority. Not because of the points you made.
Lastly, his kill options all suck. Smashes are too slow, Knee hitbox fails especially without combos. D-air is too slow with a fail hitbox. Yeah.

Falcon doesn't have legitimate advantages. That's why he sucks.

Mind you I never hated Falcon. I like him a lot and that's why I've played him. Chances are if there is anything decent you can do with Falcon, you can do it more easily and more effectively with someone else. There just isn't enough reward in landing his few reliable attacks.
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
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Feb 12, 2008
Messages
826
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Leesburg, VA
Distance isn't everything in recovery dude. Ganondorf's recovery was terrible in Melee, and it was one of the better ones in terms of raw distance. Sheik's recovery was one of the shorter ones in terms of distance, but considered really good. Get the idea?

Falcon's recovery is still very predictable. = bad. I really shouldn't have to explain from there.

Falcon can't shieldgrab unless his opponent doesn't know what spacing is. His grab range really did get cut. You actually have to touch people with the grab it seems, rather than have a hitbox which extends slightly out from the fist.

You're better off faking people out with a pivot grab just for the purpose of increasing your grab range.

His attacks send people too far for people to be reliably comboed anyway. You can't consistently hit people after a down throw....unless your opponent like doesn't do ANYTHING at all. You're underrating the air dodge system by quite a lot really. When someone air dodges to the ground, there is like...almost no lag. And that happens a lot because Falcon's attacks send people too far away to immediately follow up with anything else. And his ground game of course is lousy...

His attack speed fails in almost all of his attacks except for the N-air (which has a fail hitbox), the U-air, B-air, and his Jab combo, so all in all he's really easy to read.

Lastly, his kill options all suck. Smashes are too slow, Knee hitbox fails. D-air is too slow with a fail hitbox. Yeah.

Falcon doesn't have legitimate advantages. That's why he sucks.
Even with a predictable recovery, it isn't punishable...no more punishable than many other characters attacks. With the dumb thing in brawl called auto sweet spotting the ledge (so stupid....why sakurai...lol), the only real bad recoveries are ones with terrible vertical distance AND horizontal distance. Falcon's up B isn't anymore "gimpable" or punishable than a lot of other characters in this game. If you have any examples of why it's bad that'd be welcome.

As for shield grabbing, your opponent isn't going to space out every single move they throw at you. Even good players eventually throw in an aerial that you can punish. It's part of the game. Even spacing monsters like Ike and falco are regularly shield grabbed in brawl. If you are spaced by a move though (falco's deflector, any of Ike's smash moves), then yea...pivoting would be the best bet.

To touch on comboing...comboing with anyone in this game is hard. Falcon can string together some nice attacks off stage when someones recovering, but that's it. I was merely talking about how when you dthrow someone, and they bounce into the air, falcon can up air (they'll dodge), and then immediately afterwards, up air again or back air...whatever. Point is, they're still in the air but unable to airdodge quickly enough a second time to avoid your second move. I think me and you are thinking of different "bounce" hights from the initial dthrow. If it's a dthrow at low percentages? Your more than likely not going to hit them. If it's at higher percentages? They'll be high enough in the air to hit them with one of your two aerials...for sure.

Lastly, the utilt is a good kill move, as is his dsmash. Falcon punch is good for mind games, and really a lot of falcon users don't implement it enough. I use it fairly often in a totally, 100 percent un punishable way for mind games, but occasionally take my opponent off guard and land a hit with it. And it KO's at early percent. Really though i agree that the captain doesn't have too many good KO moves. The dair is completely useless lol ( i almost never implement it in brawl)...but i will say, i get most of my kills with falcon during my opponents recovery.

I dont think falcon sucks either, but he's also not "good"....not like other characters.

you have to implement a really, really different playstyle with falcon. Like..really different, and kind of conservative (not campy....hard to explain?), mixed in with agressive off stage gimping at the right moments.

Really, if you're a smart player you can be pretty good with falcon. I know you won't agree with that, but it's totally fine lol....i'll post vids this summer.
 

Knee Of Justice!?

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
27
Falcon is good because all the people you play against SUCK. End of story.
so wat ur sayen is that all falcon players only play people who suck? any charicter can be played well it dosent mean that the opponent sucks at the game it just means that people know how to use there fighter.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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Even with a predictable recovery, it isn't punishable...no more punishable than many other characters attacks. With the dumb thing in brawl called auto sweet spotting the ledge (so stupid....why sakurai...lol), the only real bad recoveries are ones with terrible vertical distance AND horizontal distance. Falcon's up B isn't anymore "gimpable" or punishable than a lot of other characters in this game. If you have any examples of why it's bad that'd be welcome.
You would be surprised. There are a ton of ways to punish people's recoveries even in Brawl.

LIKE...OMG jumping off the stage and hitting someone. Projectiles. Not to mention EDGEHOGGING, which does in fact work in Brawl. Some characters are really good at doing this, hence why they get really high on the tiers.

As for shield grabbing, your opponent isn't going to space out every single move they throw at you. Even good players eventually throw in an aerial that you can punish. It's part of the game. Even spacing monsters like Ike and falco are regularly shield grabbed in brawl. If you are spaced by a move though (falco's deflector, any of Ike's smash moves), then yea...pivoting would be the best bet.
Yeah, except your grab range still sucks, meaning your opponent needs to be holding Forward the ENTIRE time or something stupid like that. My point stands that Falcon will rarely ever get grabs compared to most characters, and it's sad really because he doesn't really get all that much from his throws anyway. Keep in mind, Falcon actually doesn't like to stay within grab range because his other out of shield options are pretty bad. How are you going to get a grab when you're using a character who is scared of getting within ten feet of an enemy?

To touch on comboing...comboing with anyone in this game is hard. Falcon can string together some nice attacks off stage when someones recovering, but that's it. I was merely talking about how when you dthrow someone, and they bounce into the air, falcon can up air (they'll dodge), and then immediately afterwards, up air again or back air...whatever. Point is, they're still in the air but unable to airdodge quickly enough a second time to avoid your second move. I think me and you are thinking of different "bounce" hights from the initial dthrow. If it's a dthrow at low percentages? Your more than likely not going to hit them. If it's at higher percentages? They'll be high enough in the air to hit them with one of your two aerials...for sure.
Dude, several characters have legitimate combos, or can land consecutive hits more reliably than Falcon because their attacks keep them in better range of follow ups. There are even a few characters that chaingrab in Brawl. You're not looking hard enough.

If the D-throw sends people low, they get back to the ground. If it sends them high, they air dodge and still get to the ground. That's the way it works with Falcon. There are other characters that can follow up with attacks more quickly than Falcon. Or they don't have to follow up with some dumb weak attack, and they just get to the point and hit the guy hard. Falcon does neither reliably. I can explain things about specific characters and tell you why they have an easier time landing consecutive hits, but I'll leave you to ask me about that.

Lastly, the utilt is a good kill move, as is his dsmash. Falcon punch is good for mind games, and really a lot of falcon users don't implement it enough. I use it fairly often in a totally, 100 percent un punishable way for mind games, but occasionally take my opponent off guard and land a hit with it. And it KO's at early percent. Really though i agree that the captain doesn't have too many good KO moves. The dair is completely useless lol ( i almost never implement it in brawl)...but i will say, i get most of my kills with falcon during my opponents recovery.
U-tilt = too slow and laggy. D-smash = too slow and laggy. Falcon Punch = WAAAAY too slow and laggy (no D-air to Falcon Punch either, whoever gets hit by it fails. It should never hit unless if someone like Snake recovers really really badly).

Your best kill move is the B-air really. It's indeed one of Falcon's better attacks. Please don't spam it.

I dont think falcon sucks either, but he's also not "good"....not like other characters.
You see I really don't think he deserved to suck, but others (including some good tournament players) agree with me that he is definitely one of the worst characters in the game along with Ganondorf.

you have to implement a really, really different playstyle with falcon. Like..really different, and kind of conservative (not campy....hard to explain?), mixed in with agressive off stage gimping at the right moments.
Yeah I know. Falcon actually has to bait and punish in Brawl since he can't approach. You can really only stage gimp characters with predictable recoveries (you were originally telling me that you couldn't ledgeguard in Brawl now eh?).

Really, if you're a smart player you can be pretty good with falcon. I know you won't agree with that, but it's totally fine lol....i'll post vids this summer.
No I totally agree. In fact I've seen every character played decently.

I saw this one vid of a Falcon who won against a Snake. Forgot where it was, but it was awesome.
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
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Leesburg, VA
Falcon is good because all the people you play against SUCK. End of story.
That was an extremely ignorant post...

the people i play against are far from bad, and definitely don't suck.


I've been to tournaments....i've been to MLG DC 05 and got knocked out by KillaOr. I've played matches with Walshy and Ogre 2 (who are far...FAR better at smash than a majority of people on these boards. They could easily be pros). I've been to locals as well...Chillen, Chudat, and AlphaZealot play at the LAN center i regularly go to during summer...

Do these people suck? Point is, I'm good enough at this game to know whether i'm playing a scrub, or if I'm playing a decent, good, or great player.

And i've beaten good players with Falcon. The other poster made well thought out, smart, intelligent posts about why he thought falcon wasn't good.

Your post is just stupid.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
1,237
Location
Chicago, IL
so wat ur sayen is that all falcon players only play people who suck? any charicter can be played well it dosent mean that the opponent sucks at the game it just means that people know how to use there fighter.
Let me rephrase. You think Falcon is good because the people you are playing against are not good at the game, that is why he seems good. Falcon is NOT a good character. Deal with it. I main Fox and we got nerfed hard too, but I am dealing with it just fine. I feel bad for your loss, honestly, Falcon did not deserve such a nerfing, but he isn't good.

And to Iwan, who posted while I was posting apparently, I am not saying YOU or any of the people YOU are fighting suck. I was talking about the OP. You did not claim that Falcon was a good characters, in fact, you did the opposite. The OP said "I think he is one of the better fighters". This is not true, there are facts that point out the opposite, and many of you have confirmed them here. I fear you all misunderstood my post.
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
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826
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Leesburg, VA
Let me rephrase. You think Falcon is good because the people you are playing against are not good at the game, that is why he seems good. Falcon is NOT a good character. Deal with it. I main Fox and we got nerfed hard too, but I am dealing with it just fine. I feel bad for your loss, honestly, Falcon did not deserve such a nerfing, but he isn't good.

And to Iwan, who posted while I was posting apparently, I am not saying YOU or any of the people YOU are fighting suck. I was talking about the OP. You did not claim that Falcon was a good characters, in fact, you did the opposite. The OP said "I think he is one of the better fighters". This is not true, there are facts that point out the opposite, and many of you have confirmed them here. I fear you all misunderstood my post.
Okay....yea, i'm sorry i over reacted there. I was taking that as more of a bashful post, and you aiming that at EVERY falcon player, as opposed to just him. And also, i agree that Falcon definitely isn't one of the better characters in the game.

Ha, fox mainer? He def got nerfed but that shine is still sick-nasty and hella useful.

Anyway, sorry once again...i'm so used to "zomg troll defend the captainzors". Whatever. lol. No worries man.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
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Okay....yea, i'm sorry i over reacted there. I was taking that as more of a bashful post, and you aiming that at EVERY falcon player, as opposed to just him. And also, i agree that Falcon definitely isn't one of the better characters in the game.

Ha, fox mainer? He def got nerfed but that shine is still sick-nasty and hella useful.

Anyway, sorry once again...i'm so used to "zomg troll defend the captainzors". Whatever. lol. No worries man.
Lol its cool dude, I should have taken more care in posting anyway. Yea Fox's shine is still useful, but it isn't as good as it was. Of course Fox was so overpowered in Melee he deserved this nerf.

But the topic at hand is Captain Falcon. I know people who play him, and I have never had a problem taking him on. I do believe he belongs in bottom tier. Not because I hate him or anything, quite the opposite I quite like Captain Falcon, but he is just not good. Anyone who reads some of the earlier posts can see why. No priority, no combo potential, less speed, no projectile to make up for the speed loss, he is just a mess, its really sad to see.
 

Yuna

BRoomer
BRoomer
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Sep 1, 2004
Messages
10,358
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Stockholm, Sweden
The Knee was powerful in Melee not because it had godly priority, range or speed but because it could be easily comboed into.

Now the Knee still has crap priority, range and speed (in fact, it got generally nerfed)... and it can't be comboed into. Plus other general nerfs.

So in conclusion, yeah, the Knee, not very good anymore. At least Zelda's Bair and Fair are fast.
 

Iwan

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Messages
826
Location
Leesburg, VA
Lol its cool dude, I should have taken more care in posting anyway. Yea Fox's shine is still useful, but it isn't as good as it was. Of course Fox was so overpowered in Melee he deserved this nerf.

But the topic at hand is Captain Falcon. I know people who play him, and I have never had a problem taking him on. I do believe he belongs in bottom tier. Not because I hate him or anything, quite the opposite I quite like Captain Falcon, but he is just not good. Anyone who reads some of the earlier posts can see why. No priority, no combo potential, less speed, no projectile to make up for the speed loss, he is just a mess, its really sad to see.
Yea, i can deal with all the dis-advantages though. I seem to come out on top quite frequently...it's the priority that gets me : /. Priority would make falcon very, very good in brawl. Very good. But it's just not there : /.

I main Falco, but I'm only using falcon at every tournament this summer (ones with AZ, Chillen, Chu....other smashers), to try to prove that he can at the very least be viable in competitive play.

i made a post already about that though, haha. We'll see how it turns out, but I'm sure i'll at least have a respectable showing. My capture card broke a long time ago though, so i haven't posted ANY videos yet. Not one : /. I have a job at home though (semester's over), so i'll be buying another one as soon as i get home. First thing lol. Vids will definitely be up :p.

**EDIT**---Also, agreed with you Yuna. The knee isn't as good because of a lack of hit stun, and in turn combos. If we still had hit stun the knee would still be great..haha. But yea, sakurai....:p. Although, the knee still has it's occasional uses (anticipating an opponent and landing the knee, ledge hopped knee, counter knee). They're all really situational though. Won't lie though, it's still "useable". Just not what it used to be....no where close : /.
 

Ghetto Soldier

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
110
Location
San Diego, CA
Let me rephrase. You think Falcon is good because the people you are playing against are not good at the game, that is why he seems good. Falcon is NOT a good character. Deal with it. I main Fox and we got nerfed hard too, but I am dealing with it just fine. I feel bad for your loss, honestly, Falcon did not deserve such a nerfing, but he isn't good.




wait wait wait i play falcon an hes harder to use but still good. i play awex and nicktendo drags and GEO there alright players and i still win with falcon 2 out of three half the time. like knee of justicel said its not the match its the player. some falcon match ups are bad an some are good doesnt mean you cant win with him. look at gimyfish with bowser and fumi with yoshi and chudat with snowbabys pluse taj with mewtwo please dont forget aniki with link all good players with bad character but still can win with mindgames and tech skill. OH pluse its brawl anyone can win.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
1,237
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Let me rephrase. You think Falcon is good because the people you are playing against are not good at the game, that is why he seems good. Falcon is NOT a good character. Deal with it. I main Fox and we got nerfed hard too, but I am dealing with it just fine. I feel bad for your loss, honestly, Falcon did not deserve such a nerfing, but he isn't good.




wait wait wait i play falcon an hes harder to use but still good. i play awex and nicktendo drags and GEO there alright players and i still win with falcon 2 out of three half the time. like knee of justicel said its not the match its the player. some falcon match ups are bad an some are good doesnt mean you cant win with him. look at gimyfish with bowser and fumi with yoshi and chudat with snowbabys pluse taj with mewtwo please dont forget aniki with link all good players with bad character but still can win with mindgames and tech skill. OH pluse its brawl anyone can win.
I'm not sure how you are not getting my rephrased words but I'll try to clarify it for you. I never said Falcon couldn't win a battle, anywhere. I was stating that the OP though Falcon was good because the people he was playing were not good. Falcon CAN win fights, but when it comes down to it, an equally skilled person playing Snake or Falco is going to own you. That is just the way things are. When you beat someone that is because you are better than them, plain and simple. When you win with Falcon you win because of your skill compared to the other player.

Sure Gimpy is great with Bowser, Taj with Mewtwo, that is true. But those guys would never beat Ken's Marth like that. Those people win with those bad characters because the players they are up against are less skilled than them, not necessarily BAD players, but LESS SKILLED then Gimpy or Taj or the whoever. If someone like Gimpyfish was a Marth, Falco, or Fox main in Melee, they would have gone much further in the competitive scene in terms of tournament wins, but they cared more about helping their characters community than winning tourneys, so they played the character they loved no matter the tier and took the disadvantage.

Also, saying that anyone can win because it is Brawl is just wrong. The skill gaps are much tighter between the top and bottom level players than they were in Melee, but there is still a significant gap in skills. I'd like to see you beat Overswarm's ROB in a match.
 

GetSmashedWithTheBros

Smash Apprentice
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Dunksville, a suburb of Spike City
CF is all that is man... not all that is smash. He's really not too shabby, but he certainly isn't one of the best. He's a really fun casual to use, though.


and the knee is not the knee of justice... it's the royal knee... and you make them kiss the royal knee
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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Mar 17, 2008
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Cleveland, Ohio
I don't care if Falcon is the best or worst character. I enjoy playing him casually and in the end that is what matters to me.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
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Sep 5, 2005
Messages
1,237
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Chicago, IL
I don't care if Falcon is the best or worst character. I enjoy playing him casually and in the end that is what matters to me.
That is all that should matter. If you enjoy a character, play as that character. Playing a character just because they are the best proves that you are really just in it to win tournaments and money, not because you seriously love the game. Just because a character may or may not be good is no reason to avoid playing as them.

If you like Falcon, play Falcon. If you like Marth, play Marth. If you are doing it because that is the character you want to play as, then there is no problem.
 

Knee Of Justice!?

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
27
Let me rephrase. You think Falcon is good because the people you are playing against are not good at the game, that is why he seems good. Falcon is NOT a good character. Deal with it. I main Fox and we got nerfed hard too, but I am dealing with it just fine. I feel bad for your loss, honestly, Falcon did not deserve such a nerfing, but he isn't good.

And to Iwan, who posted while I was posting apparently, I am not saying YOU or any of the people YOU are fighting suck. I was talking about the OP. You did not claim that Falcon was a good characters, in fact, you did the opposite. The OP said "I think he is one of the better fighters". This is not true, there are facts that point out the opposite, and many of you have confirmed them here. I fear you all misunderstood my post.
whoops misunderstood the post sry about that. it sux that they nerfed fox he was so good in the last one nerfing sux :( fox is still a pretty formitable opponent and plays well. as for falcon the nerf stick was not so kind but i think over time people will start to discover some stragies for him. i stll think he can combo quite well though but thats just me ;)
 

Ayato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
116
Location
Southern California
I love Falcon.
But Falcon is pretty bad.
So was Bowser in the last game, but I loved him anyway, too. That said, I play Falcon just for fun. I don't see myself making him into a high level competitor anytime soon, but some day in the future when I can develop his metagame to that level (if it's possible in Brawl, we'll find out in a year or two), then I might try to throw him into higher level play. Meanwhile, he's a fun, awesome character, but he isn't far from the bottom 5 as far as the game stands.

And mind, to those of you saying that his grab range isn't crap, that his ground game/approach game isn't crap, and that he can combo, I advise you to take another look at who and what game you're playing.

This is Brawl, combos beyond two or three hits are (generally) gone, and finishing move (knee) combos are virtually out the window thanks to the new hitstun mechanics.

Try playing against a short character like Olimar, Jigglypuff, or Kirby, and tell me that Captain Falcon's approach and ground game aren't horrible. Try grabbing short people on sloped terrain. Try grabbing short people without having to stand with your fist tucked into their chest before the grab. Try d-throw->uair comboing someone who has a higher priority aerial move that they can use out of the d-throw in lieu of an airdodge (this issue can be solved with mindgames. This can also be made a problem by mindgames against you).

Falcon's characteristics stack up against him in this game. His recovery is easily gimpable, and the knee is nigh impossible to use. It's as much of a punish-only move as a Falcon Punch is, now that the game's been stripped of combos. B-air and u-air are his only two universally reliable kill moves, and while he's still capable of killing, the rest of his moveset requires that you be in the perfect situation in order to score a kill. Raptor Boost has crap priority. Falcon Kick is still only somewhat useful. He's sluggish compared to his old self (though this is expected w/ Sonic's introduction into Smash), and when you enter the air from a dash it almost feels like you're losing velocity (whereas previously you could shoot across the stage and dragoon the crap out of everyone).

While it's not necessarily fair to compare Falcon to his former self, in the grand scheme of Brawl, he still doesn't shape up against the rest of the cast. With the removal of sufficient combo hitstun, the nerfing of his nair, the increased relative height of his short hop (he can't use aerial moves to start an approach except against the tallest or slowest characters, though perhaps there are only one or two exceptions to this rule, albeit situational. Try using anything but dair to approach in the air and watch how quickly you get shield grabbed or punished in some other method. Even then the dair can get punished). Ranged characters, short characters, high priority characters, and ground game characters can typically demolish Falcon. He had a bad draw in this game as far as his moveset goes, especially because of the limitedness of his moves (almost all are extremely situational, few universal) and his inability to go from the ground->air (low priority on most ground moves, else they're too slow to really get your opponent above your head). It's something to deal with.

I hate to admit it, but Falcon is among the worst in this game as far as his natural statistics and play style. That isn't to say he doesn't have potential, and that isn't to say you guys can't overcome the things that I find impossible with Falcon (namely Olimar and the rest of the ****** cast). But you're not fooling anyone by saying that Falcon is naturally a good character. He's far from it once you tally up his advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to believe the tallies on paper, either, as playing him should speak for itself. And don't trick yourself into thinking he doesn't have to jump through a lot of hoops before he's barely playable while novice players can step in and wreck even the most experienced Falcons.

Don't get me wrong. Falcon is my favorite character and always will be. But boy does he have a lot to fight against in this game, and the fight's mostly with himself.
 

Runeblade279

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
154
I love Falcon.
But Falcon is pretty bad.
So was Bowser in the last game, but I loved him anyway, too. That said, I play Falcon just for fun. I don't see myself making him into a high level competitor anytime soon, but some day in the future when I can develop his metagame to that level (if it's possible in Brawl, we'll find out in a year or two), then I might try to throw him into higher level play. Meanwhile, he's a fun, awesome character, but he isn't far from the bottom 5 as far as the game stands.

And mind, to those of you saying that his grab range isn't crap, that his ground game/approach game isn't crap, and that he can combo, I advise you to take another look at who and what game you're playing.

This is Brawl, combos beyond two or three hits are (generally) gone, and finishing move (knee) combos are virtually out the window thanks to the new hitstun mechanics.

Try playing against a short character like Olimar, Jigglypuff, or Kirby, and tell me that Captain Falcon's approach and ground game aren't horrible. Try grabbing short people on sloped terrain. Try grabbing short people without having to stand with your fist tucked into their chest before the grab. Try d-throw->uair comboing someone who has a higher priority aerial move that they can use out of the d-throw in lieu of an airdodge (this issue can be solved with mindgames. This can also be made a problem by mindgames against you).

Falcon's characteristics stack up against him in this game. His recovery is easily gimpable, and the knee is nigh impossible to use. It's as much of a punish-only move as a Falcon Punch is, now that the game's been stripped of combos. B-air and u-air are his only two universally reliable kill moves, and while he's still capable of killing, the rest of his moveset requires that you be in the perfect situation in order to score a kill. Raptor Boost has crap priority. Falcon Kick is still only somewhat useful. He's sluggish compared to his old self (though this is expected w/ Sonic's introduction into Smash), and when you enter the air from a dash it almost feels like you're losing velocity (whereas previously you could shoot across the stage and dragoon the crap out of everyone).

While it's not necessarily fair to compare Falcon to his former self, in the grand scheme of Brawl, he still doesn't shape up against the rest of the cast. With the removal of sufficient combo hitstun, the nerfing of his nair, the increased relative height of his short hop (he can't use aerial moves to start an approach except against the tallest or slowest characters, though perhaps there are only one or two exceptions to this rule, albeit situational. Try using anything but dair to approach in the air and watch how quickly you get shield grabbed or punished in some other method. Even then the dair can get punished). Ranged characters, short characters, high priority characters, and ground game characters can typically demolish Falcon. He had a bad draw in this game as far as his moveset goes, especially because of the limitedness of his moves (almost all are extremely situational, few universal) and his inability to go from the ground->air (low priority on most ground moves, else they're too slow to really get your opponent above your head). It's something to deal with.

I hate to admit it, but Falcon is among the worst in this game as far as his natural statistics and play style. That isn't to say he doesn't have potential, and that isn't to say you guys can't overcome the things that I find impossible with Falcon (namely Olimar and the rest of the ****** cast). But you're not fooling anyone by saying that Falcon is naturally a good character. He's far from it once you tally up his advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to believe the tallies on paper, either, as playing him should speak for itself. And don't trick yourself into thinking he doesn't have to jump through a lot of hoops before he's barely playable while novice players can step in and wreck even the most experienced Falcons.

Don't get me wrong. Falcon is my favorite character and always will be. But boy does he have a lot to fight against in this game, and the fight's mostly with himself.
This. Falcon is one of the hardest characters to use effectively high level play simply because he doesn't have much going for him other than running speed and above average recovery. That's it.

That doesn't mean he's an auto-lose, but it'll take alot of practice, dedication, and skill to be able to beat high level players with Falcon, especially if they play as one of his numerous bad matchups.

But hell, I love Falcon, so I don't care. =)
 

Sh1n0b1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
Falcon just needs time. Remember in Melee, he was considered low tier. Then new discoveries were made over the years and he bounced to the 6th position on the tier list. Even if falcon ends up being the worst character in this game i'll still play him for years to come.
 

whut?

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
347
Location
long island, NY
stop talking about how people dont like him and the trend of falcon hate will cease.
the only thing that fuels the "falcunz sux in brawl" is people who debate opinions like their fact.
(example: this thread)
 

vills

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
60
i think its the player who makes the character bad or good=)
falcon is still the best when used properly
 
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