Druggedfox
Smash Champion
This is a really interesting thread... and after having to deal with a ridiculous amount of CC grabbing myself, one (or hopefully all) of you might find some thoughts on this interesting:
@Mogwai, PP, etc anyone concerned with CC/SDI stuff
When people SDI out of your shine range as fox, you can buffer a spot dodge. This turns it into a 50/50. If they SDI your dair away and try to go for a grab, you can purposely dair to bait the grab and just buffer a spotdodge to make sure they don't hit. After that, you get any free hit you want on them. That's only one example of something fox can do, but it's a great example of how you can instantly turn something like that into a 50/50. This is assuming they SDI consistently, which while its not that hard, chances are your opponent will miss it at least once, thus turning the tables in your favor.
Additionally, you can u-air opponents who CC too much, which is an interesting thought that doesn't seem very applicable to me, but might be. That's just an idea, but far more importantly:
If your opponents stay on the ground trying to CC, fox's dash game in general allows him to maneuver well enough to avoid having to resort to nair/bair at low %s.
-If you get a dair, it leads to a waveshine --> combo, and helps gets them out of gay CC range.
-Any grab forces your opponent into the air, if you can keep them there until mid percent, or maybe get two grabs, you've once again eliminated the extent to which CC destroys fox. His upthrow does 7%, a pummel does 3%, a bair does 15%. One upthrow bair can net you 25%. Do that twice, and shoot a laser or two, they're already out of CC range. Obviously I'm oversimplifying a bit, but if fox just relies on his dash game until he can get 2 grabs total, he's already beaten CC grab. This leads me to:
-As stupid as it sounds, this is the most important one in my opinion... your opponent can't CC in the air. In a ground game fight, fox's dash game on its own allows him to exploit even the tiniest openings, allowing him to build up enough damage that CC ceases to **** you (such as getting two grabs). Most characters (Marth/Peach/Sheik in this case) have to rely on some form of aerial game to beat fox, because on the ground its relatively simple for him to get 2 grabs. If they're in the air, CC obviously isn't a problem, and fox can play his standard game. A peach who sits there without using floats won't beat you. A sheik who sits there tilting/dashing etc can't beat you; fox's dash game is far superior. In marth's case his dash game rivals yours because of a longer dash in addition to an amazing grab. At this point fox has to rely on things I have previously mentioned, or:
-Fox has lasers. He doesn't have to get them to 50% with lasers only, but with a combination of maybe one waveshine combo, a grab combo, and some lasers, its not that hard to get opponents to a mid percent where it's safe to start spacing bairs. Lastly...
-Fox can approach using his shine.
At this point, with well spaced/delayed aerials, CC only is really obnoxious with marth because of his grab range. At mid percents, fox can avoid getting CC grabbed even whilst spacing bairs etc.
CC grabbing is really annoying, and limits fox's game indeed, but to me it is no different than someone who can powershield falco's lasers well. Even if someone can powershield lasers with an 80-90% consistency, there are still ways to make use of laser, and even take advantage of the fact that your opponent relies on it: baiting their shield is just one example.
That said, it can be obnoxious, but I must honestly say that it only seems to be such a great limitation to fox's game at first glance.
@Mogwai, PP, etc anyone concerned with CC/SDI stuff
When people SDI out of your shine range as fox, you can buffer a spot dodge. This turns it into a 50/50. If they SDI your dair away and try to go for a grab, you can purposely dair to bait the grab and just buffer a spotdodge to make sure they don't hit. After that, you get any free hit you want on them. That's only one example of something fox can do, but it's a great example of how you can instantly turn something like that into a 50/50. This is assuming they SDI consistently, which while its not that hard, chances are your opponent will miss it at least once, thus turning the tables in your favor.
Additionally, you can u-air opponents who CC too much, which is an interesting thought that doesn't seem very applicable to me, but might be. That's just an idea, but far more importantly:
If your opponents stay on the ground trying to CC, fox's dash game in general allows him to maneuver well enough to avoid having to resort to nair/bair at low %s.
-If you get a dair, it leads to a waveshine --> combo, and helps gets them out of gay CC range.
-Any grab forces your opponent into the air, if you can keep them there until mid percent, or maybe get two grabs, you've once again eliminated the extent to which CC destroys fox. His upthrow does 7%, a pummel does 3%, a bair does 15%. One upthrow bair can net you 25%. Do that twice, and shoot a laser or two, they're already out of CC range. Obviously I'm oversimplifying a bit, but if fox just relies on his dash game until he can get 2 grabs total, he's already beaten CC grab. This leads me to:
-As stupid as it sounds, this is the most important one in my opinion... your opponent can't CC in the air. In a ground game fight, fox's dash game on its own allows him to exploit even the tiniest openings, allowing him to build up enough damage that CC ceases to **** you (such as getting two grabs). Most characters (Marth/Peach/Sheik in this case) have to rely on some form of aerial game to beat fox, because on the ground its relatively simple for him to get 2 grabs. If they're in the air, CC obviously isn't a problem, and fox can play his standard game. A peach who sits there without using floats won't beat you. A sheik who sits there tilting/dashing etc can't beat you; fox's dash game is far superior. In marth's case his dash game rivals yours because of a longer dash in addition to an amazing grab. At this point fox has to rely on things I have previously mentioned, or:
-Fox has lasers. He doesn't have to get them to 50% with lasers only, but with a combination of maybe one waveshine combo, a grab combo, and some lasers, its not that hard to get opponents to a mid percent where it's safe to start spacing bairs. Lastly...
-Fox can approach using his shine.
At this point, with well spaced/delayed aerials, CC only is really obnoxious with marth because of his grab range. At mid percents, fox can avoid getting CC grabbed even whilst spacing bairs etc.
CC grabbing is really annoying, and limits fox's game indeed, but to me it is no different than someone who can powershield falco's lasers well. Even if someone can powershield lasers with an 80-90% consistency, there are still ways to make use of laser, and even take advantage of the fact that your opponent relies on it: baiting their shield is just one example.
That said, it can be obnoxious, but I must honestly say that it only seems to be such a great limitation to fox's game at first glance.
