Falco's Weaknesses

[Vlade]

This thread was originally inspired by Emblem Lord from the Marth boards, so credit goes to him for the idea.

Anyway I think it's essential that as a community falco boards should review falco's weaknesses. The first step to improving is knowing your character's weaknesses and learning how to deal with them. If you can't do that then ultimately you cannot fully understand your character, thus you cannot reach your maximum potential.

I shall list some of falco's weaknesses I know. Please feel free to add to the list and discuss potential strategies to get around these weaknesses.


Very Mediocre Recovery

Seriously, falco's firebird just sucks ***. It has an incredibly laggy start-up and it is easily gimped. Not to mention that it can be edgehogged quite safely as well. The phantasm is also quite easily intercepted as well as edgehogged if your opponent is good at reading you. Probably the only ways to get around his 'poor' recovery is to cancel the phantasm and mix up whether or not you will sweetspot. As fluke says, 9/10 times the opponent will expect a full length phantasm. Other than that, try to avoid the firebird.

Killing

I actually think this is the worst aspect to playing falco. He sucks at killing. Fsmash is too laggy and is very easily shielded. It is very difficult to hit with and often can only be used as a punishing kill move, it is very difficult to set up. Usmash requires that you are quite close to your opponent, but at least it's fast. SHDL > boost smash is probably the best way to kill, but some characters are quite heavy and on Japes it won't kill for ages (of course on Japes falco is a gimp-machine). Bair is also considered a kill move, but it can't be relied on because it becomes stale. Dair is also pretty hard to land.

Reflector has a Very Laggy Cooldown

If this move is shielded, you're toast.... Just don't abuse this move, especially after the AAA combo.

In other words, use sparingly.

Reasonably Light

He's lighter than Sheik. Which means he gets killed earlier. Plus we have trouble killING.

Range of Ground Moves Aren't Incredible

Sure, jab and ftilt may have lots of range, plus we have the lasers. But if a character like Marth or lucario were to get in the right zone they rip us apart. We don't have any very long ranged ground moves other than the reflector, which is easily shielded and punished. Lasers are of no use in this spacing that I am talking about (quite close, but not in your face).

Fall Speed

Because falco falls reasonably fast he is susceptible to utilt chains and other moves which will juggle him. Game and Watch's nair juggling is also insane, racking up tonnes of damage. The only way you can overcome this is to learn to DI out of the chain.

Because of this he is also susceptible to chain throws, such as lucario's uthrow (which can be DI'ed out of, but requires decent reflexes), falco's own dthrow and kirby's insane grab combo (fthrow > DI'ed uair > utilt > bair) which does like 38%.

Sucks at Attacking the Ledge

Unfortunately this is something not to be proud about, especially against a planking metaknight. Falco doesn't have a very good moveset to deal with planking, and to top it off, his firebird sucks. There are a few ways to attack the ledge, but I don't recommend it if you're at higher %. If you want more on dealing with planking, search for 'The metaknight forum' or something like that.



There's probably more that I've missed out, so feel free to add and discuss ways to overcome falco's weaknesses that I have already listed.

Hope you enjoyed the read

 

[AzNsAnTaGiN]

Doesn't Falco have mixup mindgames while returning to the stage? Can't he like wall jump off of cliffs, fire double lasers, and rehog, etc.?

 

[§witch]

Doesn't Falco have mixup mindgames while returning to the stage? Can't he like wall jump off of cliffs, fire double lasers, and rehog, etc.?

From the ledge, but that's not at all what he was talking about.

 

[ftl]

Doesn't Falco have mixup mindgames while returning to the stage? Can't he like wall jump off of cliffs, fire double lasers, and rehog, etc.?

Once Falco has grabbed on to the ledge, he's pretty well off. The hard part is getting there from far offstage.

 

[EnjoiLove]

Falco has his up and downs, but his K.O. does not suck at all. Actually its pretty decent. His Fsmash will punish you if you land into it, and doesn't really lag. His Dsmash quite good for separating yourself from your opponent and sending them off the stage, though if you miss, you will get punish from a smash or grab. Though I will agree, his recovery sucks, his Upsmash lags, and his phantasm is readable once you predict how far he goes, and easily punish him on FD or BF. Falco is light, but at least is free fall isn't that terrible, killing Falco early can be simply avoided if you rather stay on defense and wait for the opening, and pounce on your opponent quite quickly.

 

[Fluke]

Recovery somewhat can be helped with Illusion canceling.

Like once they see you phantasming, 9/10 times they expect a full distance Illusion, either running to the stage to where you will land or try to intercept it mid way, shortening it so you just reach the stage ledge can mix it up.

 

[Vorguen]

His Fsmash will punish you if you land into it, and doesn't really lag.

Fsmash has a terrible startup and you can punish it.

The only thing I like about it is that if they try to roll behind you for it they usually will still get hit by it somehow.

Other than that I try not to use it much unless someone is "Ike just missed a Fsmash" wide open.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Killing

We all know that Falco has a variety of killing methods that are difficult to acquire, but does not he play a very good Pressure game and edgeguarding game?

To me the key to killing with Falco is to either pressure your opponent, so badly that they make a mistake, seize the chance to punish the mistake or just do not let them get back on the stage.

Fsmash can have some uses for up close purposes even though it seems punishable. If you are throwing out Ftilts and Jabs constantly in close combat throwing in a Chargeable Fsmash can mess up things for your opponent and can be a reliable killing move then if timed at the correct moment. I have found this method usually gets me at least one Stock.

Dsmash can kill, but really when would you use it compared to upsmash unless they are behind you, which you normally do not want anyone behind you in the first place.

Upsmash we know is the most reliable way to kill for falco, can be set up with lasers.

Occasionally Phantasm can be of some use to kill when you get a Meteor smash on someone when trying to gimp your recovery, but typically this won't happen and really only happens when your opponent tries to intercept you from the stage when you are far off. A smart person should know that it is much easier to guard from the stage since when Falco is far off he has only option to phantasm which you can edgehog or if Falco tries recovery onto the stage, your opponent will attack you out of it. To me if you manage a meteor smash with this off stage you are either very lucky or your opponent is not very smart, in which case killing should them should be easier.

Dair is difficult to land offstage and really only works best against those with predictable recoveries or you are great at timing your attacks. Bair is more reliable in that is lasts longer for a hitbox and if you miss the sweetspot you still get reasonable knockback that you can continue to ledgeguard, if you do get the sweetspot you get a KO generally if they are at a good enough percentage.

Dtilt and Utilt are your fall back killing methods, if you get to too high of a percentage, usually about 150%+. They are faster than all your smashes and the Dtilt can be set up into, such as Jab > Tilt, or OoS > uptilt when they are extremely close or just above you.

For early KOs you will have to rely upon aggresive edgeguardin/edgehogging and Dair. Dair we know is difficult to achieve and since it can be teched from a chaingrab you will have to resort to some aggresive edgeguarding in the end most likely. Lasers gimp that 2nd jump and set you up for edgehogging or Bairs to get them further off stage. Although those methods are best used on someone coming from horizontal or below the stage. If they are coming above that is a more difficult matter to deal with as they can try to airdodge past you into the ledge, jump over you and try to reach the stage where you will have to try to predict how they do it, or they may simply try to attack you back.

Up Air has killing potiental, but it is more difficult to achieve since if you are jumping after your opponent they can just out prioitize you, airdodge, or jump to avoid any attacks. Although it is a nice tool to pressure your opponent with if you know they do not have an attack that out priotizes you in the air.

All in all, I do not think that Killing is as bad as people make it out to be. Falco has many killing options, just that they are all situational. The thing is that all these moves cover a wide range of possible scenarios and set ups that one just has to be able to recognize that moment and use the correct/best choice to get the kill in with.

Light Weight
There is no counter stragtegy for this except to learn to DI, teching, momentum canceling and above all else DO NOT GET HIT.

Reflector Cooldown
Counter strategy: Use sparingly.

Recovery
Yeah, recovery is pretty bad.

From far away horizontal, you are pretty much forced to phantasm back onto the ledge or stage which the speed of the phantasm can safe you if your opponent messes up. Just mix up which you aim for.

Below stage... Lmao! Firebird and 2nd jump are only means of recovery here. If you run out of your second jump you are forced to Firebird and it is so easy to edgehog against you or hit you out of it in the start up lag. Not much here that you can do except attacking from the 2nd jump such as a rising spike or Nair, you might even get lucky enough to spike them on the rising spike.

Up high and far away. I do not like being here. Sure you have a lot of options such as going lower and a bit closer when still off stage, you can proceed to move back into the middle of the stage and try to get grounded form there, airdodge any attacks coming your way or go for the ledge. Any method you choose though your opponent will be able to see and have time to adjust to what you do.

Overall, I think try to go for the ledge, but beware if they are close if they try to edgehog you. Falco has many more options (safer too) of getting onto the stage once he gets the ledge.

Another weakness I see in Falco is the fact that he can get juggled pretty well (Falling Speed). Often times I lose up to about 40%-50% from a single string of attacks, 2-3 uptilts in a row are typically the start of this and following up attacks to get to that 40-50% before knockback is enough that one gets into a better position more easily.

 

[vKo]

Killing options suck compared to old Falco.
The split kick vsmash used to have beautiful range and was a decent kill move.
The wheel kick >smash was our pride and joy until the new gay one introduced us to this 'lag.'
I wish we could trade with Fox.
And it's gay because most characters can absorb an ^smash or two, and after that - it just won't kill them.

His smashes this time around have gay properties though.
Like Vorguen said, >smash SOMEHOW hits behind Falco (and kills like they were square in front of it).
And ^smash SOMEHOW hits on the back down (which has crazy knockback).

And I still think Falco should has more jumps.
Still, I miss the old options.

 

[Vlade]

Added juggling aspect, and some other points from Crystal's post

 

[Blad01]

Juggled Fairly Easily

Because falco falls reasonably fast he is susceptible to utilt chains and other moves which will juggle him. Game and Watch's nair juggling is also insane, racking up tonnes of damage. The only way you can overcome this is to learn to DI out of the chain.

Wow, Utilts chains (usually 3 utilts before yu can sdi effectively) are just one part of juggling...

Falco is one of the best characters when it comes to being juggled. Just take into account Dair, Illusion / Shortened illusion, his averafe fast fall speed, and good aerial mobility. That's probably why his airdodge sucks a bit.
In comparaison, Snake is really worse in this area. ^^

(But yes, some annoying moves like G&W's Nair outprioritize Dair...)

Also, lighter than Sheik... Not really sure of that, at least for vertical resistance.

 

[Vlade]

Mew2king's weight list says so

 

[J4pu]

His Fsmash will punish you if you land into it, and doesn't really lag. his Upsmash lags,.

did you get the 2 mixed up or something?

 

[Vorguen]

Yeah I was thinking my argument might not have made sense since he probably messed up what he wanted to say.

 

[Vlade]

Just remembered his weakness against planking

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just remembered his weakness against planking

This is easily remedied. Just get in the most hits, do not get hit from then on and if they plank, let them. YOu are winning of course. xD

 

[Sukai]

I don't approve of this.
Yes, Falco has bad recovery (redeemed by his good jumping skills).
But his kill power is great. His forward smash has great range, the closer, the more powerful, using his forward smash is just a simple game of reading your opponent, find when they're vulnerable, if you can't, then Falco has other smash attacks too. The Down smash kills if spaced right, and an Up Smash can kill around 120 if there is no move negation.

Plus, Falco has great ground priority, it's mind boggling.
Falco has no problem getting close, especially is you use the short hop lasers.

 

[Denzi]

I don't approve of this.
Yes, Falco has bad recovery (redeemed by his good jumping skills).
But his kill power is great. His forward smash has great range, the closer, the more powerful, using his forward smash is just a simple game of reading your opponent, find when they're vulnerable, if you can't, then Falco has other smash attacks too. The Down smash kills if spaced right, and an Up Smash can kill around 120 if there is no move negation.

Plus, Falco has great ground priority, it's mind boggling.
Falco has no problem getting close, especially is you use the short hop lasers.

If we don't accept our weaknesses, we can't get better. By knowing what is "wrong" with our character, a good Falco can make those problems seem miniscule, if not nonexistant, which may be why Falco seems so awesome to people who don't know him as well.

@ thread topic: Our fall speed makes us susceptable to chaingrabbing by certain characters (i.e. Lucario Uthrow, Kirby's grab shenanegins, Falco's Dthrow CG, etc.).

We've been stealing a lot from the Marth boards lately, haven't we?

 

[Vlade]

Try landing those kill moves very consistently in a match, then come back to me.

Forward smash does have great range, but that doesn't mean its very easy to hit with. It has quite a laggy start-up, and you cannot play 'a simple game of reading your opponent'. It doesn't work like that at higher levels of play. Dsmash doesn't kill reliably until around 140%+? Maybe even higher. Plus it has crappy range as well, and is punished very easily if you miss. Usmash has poor range, but it's quick. Very difficult to land though without the help of lasers.

Falco's very mediocre recovery is not redeemed by his good jumping skills. I mean, if his second jump was the same height as his first ground jump, then sure he'd probably have a decent recovery. But it is not.

Case Closed.

EDIT @ Denzi: If only we had more intelligent posters like the marth boards Which we do, we're just too lazy

EDIT2: Added the fact that our fall speed makes us susceptible to CG'ing.

 

[Sukai]

Well pardon me mr pro.
Just about any recovery can be very much acceptable with conservative use of his double jump, all characters share this feature, of course, defending against off stage chases can be an issue, that can be served as a weakness.
And for you to doubt his kill power is just sad.
If Falco had bad killing potential, he wouldn't be high tier, tell me does that make sense? A high tier character who has problems landing a kill?
And at your little smug comment, it is an easy game of reading your opponent, the concept of it is very easy. The execution may vary on the character and the player, but that in no way is Falco's fault. The concept doesn't get any more complicated in 'higher levels of play'.

And for your information, I do land consistent kills in a match with Falco, not always with his Forward smash, but the fact remains well enough.
Falco has quite a few kill moves, not including his Forward smash.
If you have problems getting a kill in, then use the back air, try for a spike, or just beat them up til you can take them out right.

A small tip, if you have problems killing with Falco, that doesn't make it a character weakness, thats a player weakness.
I indeed enough acknowledge that Falco has weaknesses, I just don't agree with some of the ones you listed. Don't like it?
Tough balls.

 

[Vlade]

Like Denzi said, if you can't accept your character's weaknesses, you can't grow as a player. The fact is, falco has trouble killing and I'm sure all the respected falco players would agree with my statements.

And for your information, I do land consistent kills in a match with Falco, not always with his Forward smash, but the fact remains well enough.
Falco has quite a few kill moves, not including his Forward smash.
If you have problems getting a kill in, then use the back air, try for a spike, or just beat them up til you can take them out right.

And who do you play against that you land consistent kills in a match with falco? I don't care if YOU land consistent kills in a match against some scrub. That would be like me saying, 'I beat my friend's MK all the time with captain falcon, therefore captain falcon must be better.' That logic just doesn't work.


Anyway for those falco mains with a brain, please keep adding to the list

 

[Sukai]

I don't play Falco vs noobs, they ***** too much.
Please, don't get all childish on me, underestimating my skill, my game, and my intelligence. I know Falco has weaknesses, hell I main him, why wouldn't I?
I'm not rejecting his weaknesses, I'm questioning the extent that a player flaw is categorized as a weakness (for the character).
I know Falco has bad recovery, all too well, but the double jump helps, this wasn't rejecting his weakness, but providing a small abeit obvious remedy to help get around it.
You said "land some consistent kills", and I say I do, I've no reason to lie.
Then you say "your opponent must be a noob", it's **** like this that makes people seem conceited and stuffy.
I've yet to have issues killing with Falco, and I mainly fight people at or above my skill level, one in particular is a huge tourney player.
Don't believe me? Deal with it. I'm advancing as a player very well.

 

[Vlade]

Just watch the first stock of this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeW7Bf7gFKo&feature=channel_page

Minus is a very underrated player, and he's versing Anther, who is probably the best pikachu in the world. In that first stock just have a look how long it takes minus to kill. He had to camp and play patiently until 200% before he could land an fsmash safely to punish pika's dsmash. That's what I call falco sucking at killing.

Same thing happens on second stock. Anther is 200% before he gets KO'ed.

Minus is a good player and he struggled to KO Anther. Two very good players. It's the character, not the player.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

...Falco has 6 killing options:
1. Fsmash
2.Dsmash
3.Usmash
4.Dair
5.Bair
6.Phantasm

I'd say Phantasm and Dsmash would be the most difficult to kill with, but I can kill easily with Bair and Usmash.

 

[cman]

Well pardon me mr pro.
Just about any recovery can be very much acceptable with conservative use of his double jump, all characters share this feature, of course, defending against off stage chases can be an issue, that can be served as a weakness.
And for you to doubt his kill power is just sad.
If Falco had bad killing potential, he wouldn't be high tier, tell me does that make sense? A high tier character who has problems landing a kill?
And at your little smug comment, it is an easy game of reading your opponent, the concept of it is very easy. The execution may vary on the character and the player, but that in no way is Falco's fault. The concept doesn't get any more complicated in 'higher levels of play'.

And for your information, I do land consistent kills in a match with Falco, not always with his Forward smash, but the fact remains well enough.
Falco has quite a few kill moves, not including his Forward smash.
If you have problems getting a kill in, then use the back air, try for a spike, or just beat them up til you can take them out right.

A small tip, if you have problems killing with Falco, that doesn't make it a character weakness, thats a player weakness.
I indeed enough acknowledge that Falco has weaknesses, I just don't agree with some of the ones you listed. Don't like it?
Tough balls.

Marth also has trouble landing kills, since his best kill moves are all very unsafe on block. High tier and weaknesses are not exclusive.

I do not know much about falco against anyone else, so I will only speak about his match up with Marth. Falco does indeed have the character weakness of difficulty landing kills. All of your kill moves are outranged by a move of Marth's. Falco's bair is outranged by Marth's fair. Falco's dair is outranged both vertically and horizontally by Marth's uair, and since Marth has better aerial mobility, he can take advantage of the horizontal range. Up smash and down smash are both outranged by a significant portion of Marth's moveset. Fsmash is slow. Additionally, Marth has a great defensive game, and an even better punishment game, so you can't just start throwing out moves and hope one hits.

How would you land a kill?

 

[Vlade]

Marth also has trouble landing kills, since his kill moves are all very unsafe on block.

I do not know much about falco against anyone else, so I will only speak about his match up with Marth.

Falco does indeed have the character weakness of difficulty landing kills. All of your kill moves are outranged by a move of Marth's. Falco's bair is outranged by Marth's fair. Falco's dair is outranged both vertically and horizontally by Marth's uair, and since Marth has better aerial mobility, he can take advantage of the horizontal range. Up smash and down smash are both outranged by a significant portion of Marth's moveset. Fsmash is slow. Additionally, Marth has a great defensive game, and an even better punishment game, so you can't just start throwing out moves and hope one hits.

How would you land a kill?

You say you don't know much about falco, but you, sir, are 100% correct in everything you just posted. it's not about killing power, it's landing the kill.

 

[Sukai]

I understand your points, but now we're stepping into match-up territory.
You know who also has good defense and punishing game? Meta Knight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQWqB3Y9hzo&feature=channel
The first 2 and a half minutes.
Using the same criteria for the last match. I'm just saying that Falco has decent killing potential, which by this context, I mean landing the kill move. I may have over-exaggerated before, but I still would not go so far as to call it bad.

In Falco's defense, Pikachu makes for a hard counter for Falco, from what I've seen.

 

[Hyo]

^ I wouldn't say pika is a hard counter, I'd put it 50/50 because reflector stops their number 1: Thunder.

 

[Vlade]

In Falco's defense, Pikachu makes for a hard counter for Falco, from what I've seen.

This made me disregard everything you've said up until now. It's 50:50, or slightly in either character's favour.

 

[Hyo]

That aside, Falco has no hard counters.

...
Otherwise, he would have to have weaknesses... no?

 

[Sukai]

This made me disregard everything you've said up until now. It's 50:50, or slightly in either character's favour.

And why the sudden lost of respect?
How do you expect me to think otherwise, when I based that theory from what I've seen and experienced?
Jeez man, lay off.

 

[Vlade]

If you think Pikachu is a hard counter against falco, you obviously don't know anything.

Anything you say from now on I'm not going to reply to. You can have the last say if you wish.

 

[MyCurse4Life]

Falco is amuzing, and easy to handle

 

[chaoechidna]

One amazing move from melee was the phantasm into an edgehogger. It was an immediate spike (meteor smash). There was little to no recovery when the opponent was at even decent percentages. I'm not sure if they kept that spike in this game, from hitting an edgehogger anyway. The regular phantasm spike in the air doesn't seem as powerful as in the last game either. I've hit many opponents with it and they still recover. Still, someone should look into the edgehog spike. And if it's still in this game, my advice is to hold out till the last second before using it on an edgehog. That way, the chance is better that invincibility frames are through for him. Most opponents prob won't see that coming, since most grab the edge as soon as falco is far off enough to not recover from horizontal firebird. They prob won't expect the edge spike by phantasm; haven't seen it in a single video yet. Show them a thing or two. I'll go check this out. Sorry to anyone that has already discovered it, if they have.

 

[chaoechidna]

OK scratch the above. It works, but not nearly as effectively as it did in melee. A fox at 50% can EASILY recover, and by the looks of it, almost any character at about that range will not die from a phantasm spike. On the plus, I think it'll work against an opponent at higher percents (prob above 100%). So what I said above would still be a good mindgame kill. But as this is a thread on weaknesses, I guess I'll contribute:

Falco's phantasm isn't nearly as powerful a spike as it was in melee. This is a weakness.

I miss melee falco.

 

[bowz]

....I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

[Vlade]

It's not a weakness, it doesn't matter if it doesn't spike as well as it did in melee. The fact that the phantasm is very gimpable is a weakness though and I have already discussed that.

 

[Teran]

People should try downward angled firebirds every now and then. I know it's the forbidden move and all, but it can be a good miixup to recovery.

 

[Vlade]

Absolutely, just remember to return the control stick to neutral otherwise you won't snap to the ledge.

 

[chaoechidna]

It's not a weakness, it doesn't matter if it doesn't spike as well as it did in melee. The fact that the phantasm is very gimpable is a weakness though and I have already discussed that.

I was just kidding.