Fast Fall Lags. (solution found) (New tech? Page 2)

[Mama]

Alright. I think some things need to be cleared up.

I was very hopeful for this "discovery" when i first read it, and when i tested it with Pit, i actually got it to "work" however, I think we've been fooling ourselves, and heres why.

What we're seeing, is a mix between IASA frames and the buffering system. What's happening is that some of the characters (maybe all of them i dunno) aerials have IASA frames at the end, and which allows another move (like a smash) to interrupt the lag.

Now first of all, the lag that we are seeing isn't due to fast falling. And I'm going to use pit for these examples. Even if you do a full jump, don't fast fall, but nair right before you hit the ground, Pit will go into his laggy landing animation, and then stand up again. This is due to the mechanic wherein you experience less lag if you complete the aerial before you hit the ground. But Like I said, if you DON'T finish the aerial, then Pit does his laggy landing animation.

Now, the source of the lag behind us, let's continue. Say that there are 15 frames of lag in his laggy landing animation, and the buffer system can pick up an inputted command at frame 5, and execute the action at frame 10 due to the last 5 frames being IASA frames. that's a savings of 5 frames of lag if you buffer a command. What we're seeing with Pit, is when you Nair into the laggy land, and immediately c-stick a smash, nothing happens. But when you go into the laggy land, quickly press UP/X/Y and THEN c-stick a smash, it interrupts the lag and executes the smash. IT LOOKS LIKE AN L-CANCEL, but here is what is actually happening:

You jump with Pit, do his Nair just above the ground (or fast fall one into the ground) and get the laggy land. normally, when you immediately smash the c-stick, you do it within the first 5 frames of the landing, and so it's not entered into the buffer memory, and therefore not executed. HOWEVER, with this "L-Cancel" all that's happening is you are inputting the UP/X/Y command within the first 5 frames, and then when you smash the c-stick, you are at frame 5 or 6, or 8 or w/e, and so as soon as the IASA frames become available, your smash is being executed. here's the proof: this "l-cancel" technique will "work" with any button. If you Nair with Pit into the laggy land, and smash the c-stick twice, you will interrupt the laggy landing with a smash. I'm sorry to say it even works with B--it's all because you aren't canceling the lag with the rapid UP/X/Y, but rather by inputting your smash (or w/e other command) within the range of the buffer capture. You can even cancel the IASA frames with a grab.

Sorry if this seems complicated, but it IS what is actually happening.

disclaimer: the "15 frame" example is hypothetical. it could also be 6 frames of lag total, buffer recognition at frame 3, execution at frame 4, canceling the last 2 frames of lag (IASA frames)

If thats true then I'd bet you'd get the same result if you hit the C-stick up instead of Up/X/Y. Either way that means that there could be a way to reduce lag even more which is still a good thing. If it works with all characters then we could simply use our own methods and learn the timing of the IASA frames its sort of like canceling lag but not in the true sense of it. Having them in landing lag is pretty great to know. It makes up for the lack of manual L-canceling everything (sort of) on top of that aerials that are auto L-canceled can have even less lag and thats great to know.

 

[.Sinn]

This video pretty much covers it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyhnF4jZa_Y

Except he only does aireals out of it, you do have other options. And some of his look to be short hops kept in the air to long to be fast falled, but you can do that as well.

o m g.............. lol

 

[Bronze]

So, isn't this just auto-cancelling? If you don't FF then there is time for the aerial to have finished, and so have no lag on landing. Whilst if you FF then the aerial is still on-going and so lags. If you land with no lag then you can do whatever you want on landing, obviously. Is this auto-cancelling or something different, because if its just auto-cancelling, then whats all this fuss about >_>

 

[TwinkleToes]

It's not auto canceling. There's no way to repeatedly short hop aerials that fast with auto cancel.

 

[rev]

If all I have read is correct, it is not auto canceling, because you ARE fast falling. And there is still no lag. Although there are points in that video where he does fast fall, those moves might be auto canceled. But again, you can fast fall 90% of them, and still go lag free.

I am going to experiment like theres no tomorrow tonight, I shall let you guys know what I find.

 

[VishNub]

I'm trying with wolf's fair, and I the only way I can get no lag is to just do it early enough that the move finishes before I land. none of his other airs, except dair maybe, seem to lag on landing at all regardless of when I do them.

With the bair, anyways, fast-falling or not, pushing up, or not, smashing or not, it always lags unless I do it early.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

You are a N00b. and heres why.

Autocanceling = waiting until the move is over and buffering a jump & and an attack.

In Brawl, you can buffer ALL MOVES!!!

keep BUFFERING in mind as you approach advancement in your brawl skills.

so if you press Jump, and attack during a move, and you land after the aerial has been performed, you will immediately jump and attack again.

there is no lag to jump the frame u land if u are in neutral falling position.

so yes, you may buffer a jump, and buffer an aerial!

so N00b on that N00bs!!!

suck on superior knowledge and get brawlin....

or get left behind

 

[Drakuaza]

As expected, falco still looks like a top tier, when i use it, i keep ff and attempping to do combos i used to do on melee, falco plays it pretty good, not on exact shape since the shffl is already way different and some of his aerials changed abit.

i can tell that on some characters, FF is more like L canceling like melee. but for some it delays it so maybe this stuff will help also to find top tiers and more advanced techniques.

 

[TwinkleToes]

First of all SKAG, I don't like your tone of voice! (kidding)

Second of all, the person in the video was not landing in the "neutral" position, he was falling into the ground while doing an aerial which should lag, but clearly it is lagging imperceptibly if at all and he is able to SH into another aerial.

 

[psicicle]

it looks like its just like a few autocancellable moves in melee like ICs and ganon's bairs.

 

[really_calm]

First of all SKAG, I don't like your tone of voice! (kidding)

Second of all, the person in the video was not landing in the "neutral" position, he was falling into the ground while doing an aerial which should lag, but clearly it is lagging imperceptibly if at all and he is able to SH into another aerial.

I think the person in the video just starts an aerial immediately after sh and finishes it before or when he hits the ground so he could sh again right after. That's what I did to reproduce the video's effect with marios dair. I didn't ff or anything. Just sh and aerial over and over again. Maybe the last few frames of the aerial auto-cancels?

Can someone quickly explain the buffer system and what IASA mean?

(not caught up on the terminology )

 

[Umby]

IASA = Interrupted As Soon As

Refers to the frames near the end of the move where you can just go straight into another move.

 

[usea]

^ what umby said. IASA means when the move looks like it's still going, but it has actually ended as far as input is concerned. I don't think it's a very important term, since most people don't wait until they see an animation is over, they know by experience when they can act again near the end of a move.

rev: again, you're really confused about what is happening. Fastfalling has nothing to do with it, jumping has nothing to do with it. In that video, njz is doing an aerial at the right time so that he lands after the move is over. That's why he doesn't get any lag. Jumping is just what he does after the move, to show that he didn't lag. There is nothing special going on. You can't cancel aerial landing lag with a jump.

 

[rev]

rev: again, you're really confused about what is happening. Fastfalling has nothing to do with it, jumping has nothing to do with it. In that video, njz is doing an aerial at the right time so that he lands after the move is over. That's why he doesn't get any lag. Jumping is just what he does after the move, to show that he didn't lag. There is nothing special going on. You can't cancel aerial landing lag with a jump.

He's not fast falling in that video. I understand how that works, canceling lag by the move ending before you hit the ground.

But you can do more than that. You can use fast falls that do lag if you do nothing after, but you also can do certain things on moves to make them just link into a next move. Completely unrelated to the landing time.

But sadly enough to say, it doesn't seem be very universal from character to character, and sometimes not even from move to move.

Over all, I havn't figure it all out yet haha. But I do know what canceling lag by letting the move end does. greattttttt, I want to be able to do it faster.

 

[Fastest]

He's not fast falling in that video. I understand how that works, canceling lag by the move ending before you hit the ground.

But you can do more than that. You can use fast falls that do lag if you do nothing after, but you also can do certain things on moves to make them just link into a next move. Completely unrelated to the landing time.

But sadly enough to say, it doesn't seem be very universal from character to character, and sometimes not even from move to move.

Over all, I havn't figure it all out yet haha. But I do know what canceling lag by letting the move end does. greattttttt, I want to be able to do it faster.

Stop posting. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

Can someone quickly explain the buffer system and what IASA mean?

(not caught up on the terminology )

buffer = hitting a button during a move, as soon as the move ends, the action from the button u pushed is performed upon competion of the last move.

Example, hit jab twice fast. make sure u hit the button the 2nd time during the first jab. you will perform both jabs in sucession, beginning the 2nd as soon as the first is completed

PS i was a tad drunk when i posted yesterday...

 

[really_calm]

ok I think I understand now

buffer frames = frames of move in which you can input another move which will be executed immediately once the move is finished

IASA frames = frames of a move which ninja you into believing the move is not completed but actually allow input and execution of new moves

so if you buffer a move it will execute once the IASA frames are reached, right?

 

[rev]

Stop posting. You have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't really give a crap if you can't do it.

Sucks for you.

 

[Magus420]

It really just sounds like you are 're-buffering' the buffered crouch from hitting down to fastfall (which could feel like lag) with a jump/attack buffer in its place.

 

[Jeremy Feifer]

You all suck, so everyone should just... I Have the greatest Idea. Disregard this post.

 

[cradmazy_SKAG]

It really just sounds like you are 're-buffering' the buffered crouch from hitting down to fastfall (which could feel like lag) with a jump/attack buffer in its place.

thank you magus

 

[Dustero]

I don't fastfall that much, but when I have with Falco's dair and bair, it takes him longer to get up. I've decided to not fastfall my attacks in Brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I have to PM you SKAG so we can brawl.
NO DRINKING WHILE POSTING.

It frightens me T_T.

@above poster: Hit jump and attack so that it replaces the crouching buffer of the fast fall with a jump/attack buffer as mentioned in the posts above.

 

[DevinD]

im having trouble getting this down. anyone planning on posting a vid for this?

 

[kenny.kor]

I can get this to work for the most part but has anyone gotten it to work with Mario's f-air.

 

[-Hoggle-]

Double post please ignore.

 

[-Hoggle-]

I would appreciate a list of characters and moves this technique applies to and a clear list of button inputs on how to do this, once all of the information gets confirmed.

 

[Kunfuzed]

wut

I am trying it with Ike's bair in order to understand this. The best i can do is SH, FF and bair at the same time, and right before landing tap X twice and it buffers a jump until the lag is done. I still cannot actually cancel the lag.

Do you have any tips on doing this? I cannot seem to get it...

 

[Seison]

^ what umby said. IASA means when the move looks like it's still going, but it has actually ended as far as input is concerned. I don't think it's a very important term, since most people don't wait until they see an animation is over, they know by experience when they can act again near the end of a move.

rev: again, you're really confused about what is happening. Fastfalling has nothing to do with it, jumping has nothing to do with it. In that video, njz is doing an aerial at the right time so that he lands after the move is over. That's why he doesn't get any lag. Jumping is just what he does after the move, to show that he didn't lag. There is nothing special going on. You can't cancel aerial landing lag with a jump.

Usea is dead on with those points. There is no "special" technique here. Only very good character control. In that video, all the player is doing is performing aerials at just the right moment to make them finish before he hits the ground. He is NOT doing aerials into the ground, because if he was, we would see the laggy landing animations. there is no laggy animation if your aerial finishes before you hit the ground. nothing special.

 

[Glix]

Usea is dead on with those points. There is no "special" technique here. Only very good character control. In that video, all the player is doing is performing aerials at just the right moment to make them finish before he hits the ground. He is NOT doing aerials into the ground, because if he was, we would see the laggy landing animations. there is no laggy animation if your aerial finishes before you hit the ground. nothing special.

Sorry to be a total noob about this, but I want to make sure I understand it right. My best example is Links Dair. Somtimes I come out of it with no lag, sometimes when I land my sword gets stuck in the ground for a second or two.

What you're saying is that if I do the move early enough, I come out of it with no lag, but if I hit the ground while still in the move, the sword gets stuck?

Makes sense.

 

[usea]

Sorry to be a total noob about this, but I want to make sure I understand it right. My best example is Links Dair. Somtimes I come out of it with no lag, sometimes when I land my sword gets stuck in the ground for a second or two.

What you're saying is that if I do the move early enough, I come out of it with no lag, but if I hit the ground while still in the move, the sword gets stuck?

Makes sense.

Yes. If you land after the move is over (or very near its end) then you won't get that lag where your sword is stuck in the ground. If you land while the move is still going on, you will lag. There is no known way to reduce or eliminate that lag at this time, other than not putting yourself in that situation.

 

[Seraphi-Kid]

....

I don't mean to be rude, but I think it's pretty safe to conclude that this is not an AT. It's simply a fact that you must complete the entire animation before landing in order to not be penalized by lag. It's also nothing that can't be discovered in 10 minutes or so of training.

Yes, you can practice your FF timing in order to reduce air-time, but this is hardly a tech and more along the lines of simply acquainting yourself with Brawl's new physics engine.

Good to know that people are working to discover new AT's instead of simply mourning the loss of Melee's, though.

 

[Kyo Kusanagi]

Wow, I see there's alot of convos since L-Canceling and Wave Dashing has been removed, To me its back to precision use of your moves now. They even upped the special's priority aganist A moves. That's all there is too it for now. It's back to the basics.

 

[TickleMePick1e]

can this work with marths dair