FGD~ Time to get SHTL done

[NAKAT]

Yea you evaluated my style a bit. It's really effective if you are really patient. Of course it isn't as flashy, but it gets the job done and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, I do little bit of both come to think of it. I sometimes attack and then pull back to camp, sometimes I carry my momentum and try my luck to maximize my damage output.
Anyways, I really struggle against opponents who uses "rare" characters. I see no vids of match up in action and so on. It hurts a lot. I think this can be more of repetitive question, but vids of Fox against characters such as Mario, Jiggly Puff, Luigi, and etc are so rare that I literally do not know what to expect.

 

[fox67890]

My good sir, I think it answered the question. I remember reading somewhere you can space with projectiles. Though I must ask you this... How about Mario? It seems you cannot camp forever but then you cannot really approach him from the air and it seems like momentum is always on Mario's side. I played a Mario main today and all I could do to put my situation back to neutral was to shield grab him and punishing with fsmash and lasering for mix up.
Oh, by the way, I think rolling approach kind of worked today and I landed few SH Bair FF also. Much better than last week. But then my MK did way better against the person I played next even though I am a Fox main lol.

EDIT: Though Mario match was fairly close. I ended up shifting some momentum to my side and get some non-usmash kills in.

It's not that hard to camp if you're experienced with hopping out of shine when you reflect a projectile (fireball in this case). If you cannot do that though, then yeah, you're probably in for a lot of trouble. Approaching any character from the air is kinda risky tbh. Maybe less so for Fox cause he's kinda good at it, but it's usually best to stay grounded. As far as recovering goes, remember to use shine stall mixups to throw off the timing of his cape if he has the chance to use it.
Honestly, I haven't played many Mario, so I can't help there too much :\. The best piece of advice I could offer is to truly master hopping out of shine after you reflect something.

Yea you evaluated my style a bit. It's really effective if you are really patient. Of course it isn't as flashy, but it gets the job done and at the end of the day that is all that matters.

Phew~
As long as you're ok with the mini evaluation, I'm ok with that. What works, works for you, so yeah, I agree.

Hmm, I do little bit of both come to think of it. I sometimes attack and then pull back to camp, sometimes I carry my momentum and try my luck to maximize my damage output.
Anyways, I really struggle against opponents who uses "rare" characters. I see no vids of match up in action and so on. It hurts a lot. I think this can be more of repetitive question, but vids of Fox against characters such as Mario, Jiggly Puff, Luigi, and etc are so rare that I literally do not know what to expect.

Most people probably use an intermediate between the two I think. I know I do.
The only thing I could say to help against "rare characters" (most likely lower tiers?) is to play against them more. I do agree though, it does hurt at times. I guess if there is a particular thing you need help to work against, maybe we could help by giving advice.

__________________________________________________
My question:
I need some ways to punish Snake's DACUS. Most of the time, there is room for punishment, but if I go for something, the mortar part of the upsmash hits me :\. Advice?

I was thinking about maybe using shine on snake, and then staying in it, because shine actually reflects the mortar part. It's not that hard of a punish though (but it might be enough to get him offstage, which is good). Any thoughts about this, or other ways?

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

As always, informative post. I was afraid that people would say that they haven't played many Mario themselves. And yes, those rarities are low tier characters. I don't know but Columbus seems to have a thing for low tiers. The most frequently faced higher tier character would be Diddy Kong. So yeah, I figured that the only way is to play them more because I barely see any vids of Fox playing against lower tier characters. I guess after a while I will be able to counter their moves effectively...

About your question, again, I am not too experienced with higher tier characters other than Meta Knight (he is mostly a secondary for many players) and Diddy Kong but I gotta say that shine could be the best option if you are hit by the first part of DACUS. Of course there's always an option for DI-ing to the back of the opponent. I think it is best to either shine the mortar or DI backwards far enough that you can fsmash safely. These 2 I have done so before although they were unintentional. Shining the mortar, I've seen it done at higher level play before but I am not too sure about the second one though.
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot, you can probably try n-air at the tip too. I think it ate mortar in one of my games.

 

[fox67890]

My bad, I should have made the question more specfic.

I meant punishing Snake's DACUS as if you never got hit by it, such as:
1) You shield it and he goes straight through you
2) You spot-dodge it and he goes straight through you

How would you punish it then? If you do something such as dash attack to punish Snake's cool-down, you might get hit by the mortar. Something like that.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, in that case, I don't think Fox has tools to punish him. Yeah you can try shine but I guess it will have a strict timing attached to it. May be you can try jumping above the mortar shell and land an aerial but by that time Snake would be prepared I think.

 

[fox67890]

sadfaic

I'll try out shine next time~

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, you could certainly try that. Also while digging through old match up exports. One person suggested that drill can cling with mortar shell. So I guess you CAN use aerials such as drill (which acts like a combo starter) to punish Snake. But I assume you'd have to be quick. Also they generally advice you to be careful of Snake's DACUS.

 

[fox67890]

Nair and Dair both clank with the mortar and continue hitting (you'll probably hit Snake with a weak nair, which is good for combos). It's kinda impractical when you're both grounded though, since the mortar will hit your head rather than your feet ;_;

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, and today I thought NAKAT was going to write something for you but then turns out it was just this forum being buggy which made him look like he stayed for long time lol. No offense intended NAKAT.

 

[fox67890]

We need other foxes up in here

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Seems like if this was a representative of Team Star Fox, we'd already be disbanded.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol it looks like I'm literally gonna be Team Star Fox tomorrow cuz my partners gonna go almost all Falco, although I might go Ness a little (but I.S already knew that).

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Team Star Fox ready for duty (Star Fox: Assault)
Correction

 

[Reckless4Christ]

I don't know any Assault quotes because I've never played it, actually.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Ah, I see. I think it was a fun game but some might think the otherwise.

 

[fox67890]

Mmm...the multiplayer was really fun if you had friends to play it with. The actuary story mode was...meh

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Cannot say I really liked the stroy either. Mainly because of unknown fate of Star Wolf... Where's my Wolfy?

 

[NAKAT]

Wait someone needs help? What's the matter? I normally won't read text if it's in dark font.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

'Tis about Snake's DACUS when you don't get hit by the first part while on the ground too.

 

[fox67890]

Wait someone needs help? What's the matter? I normally won't read text if it's in dark font.

My question:
I need some ways to punish Snake's DACUS. Most of the time, there is room for punishment, but if I go for something, the mortar part of the upsmash hits me :\. Advice?

I was thinking about maybe using shine on snake, and then staying in it, because shine actually reflects the mortar part. It's not that hard of a punish though (but it might be enough to get him offstage, which is good). Any thoughts about this, or other ways?

My bad, I should have made the question more specfic.

I meant punishing Snake's DACUS as if you never got hit by it, such as:
1) You shield it and he goes straight through you
2) You spot-dodge it and he goes straight through you

How would you punish it then? If you do something such as dash attack to punish Snake's cool-down, you might get hit by the mortar. Something like that.

I needed help with that~

 

[NAKAT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEJzWbB0mlA

(2:59) (4:30) (I catch him a lot on PS1 too)

 

[Disaster Master]

Mmm...the multiplayer was really fun if you had friends to play it with. The actuary story mode was...meh

I really liked it. I also tried really hard to beat it on gold. It was extremely difficult but I managed to complete it eventually.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

I really liked it. I also tried really hard to beat it on gold. It was extremely difficult but I managed to complete it eventually.

Oh yeah, it was difficult but then it was fun to complete it though I still cannot like storyline.
And I forgot to add your friend code Mr. Disaster Master. I will do so when I get a chance today.

 

[knuckles213]

I've been away for awhile, what did I miss, someone fill me in

@NAKAT yo nakat got any tips to spare against olimar, I'm tired of losing to that little ******

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Well, nothing much. We've been talking about Snake's DACUS and punishment possibility after you successfully dodged the attack on the ground and some little talk about Star Fox Assault's storyline being meh/awesome or something.

 

[NAKAT]

That MU is really difficult when you don't know it, but when learned it's -1 at best. You can learn more about that MU if you watch TKD vs Richbrown. Personally I played Dabuz once with Fox in tournament and I expected to get murked because I did not know what to do and Olimar has been a character I struggled against for a long time. The match was actually last hit, but what I did was triple laser his pikmin so he couldn't pikmin throw. Either dair or nair nullifies his usmash I am not sure which one again, I forgot. When you get Olimar in the air juggle him with utilts and fairs. Read his landings and punish them for more damage. Try and use Dsmash as mush as possible, because Olimar is not good offstage and it gives us stage control. Avoid mindlessly dairing into his shield or hitting in period. Grab is really good in this mu. To get the usmash read when he will pikmin throw. Fox is fast enough to catch him before he falls and kill him.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Nice set of tips. I guess it could help me as well.

 

[knuckles213]

Well, nothing much. We've been talking about Snake's DACUS and punishment possibility after you successfully dodged the attack on the ground and some little talk about Star Fox Assault's storyline being meh/awesome or something.

Well from what I've seen you have to power shield the DACUS or dash attack so that your able to punish him with Usmash, dash attack, or grab. I haven't gotten around to playing SFA, but a fox main I'll play it eventually

That MU is really difficult when you don't know it, but when learned it's -1 at best. You can learn more about that MU if you watch TKD vs Richbrown. Personally I played Dabuz once with Fox in tournament and I expected to get murked because I did not know what to do and Olimar has been a character I struggled against for a long time. The match was actually last hit, but what I did was triple laser his pikmin so he couldn't pikmin throw. Either dair or nair nullifies his usmash I am not sure which one again, I forgot. When you get Olimar in the air juggle him with utilts and fairs. Read his landings and punish them for more damage. Try and use Dsmash as mush as possible, because Olimar is not good offstage and it gives us stage control. Avoid mindlessly dairing into his shield or hitting in period. Grab is really good in this mu. To get the usmash read when he will pikmin throw. Fox is fast enough to catch him before he falls and kill him.

I seen that video and took notes from it, but some stuff doesn't work too well if olimar camps really hard with pikmin throw and pivot grab majority of the time. plus it doesn't help that play against top olimars in my area, but thanks for the advice, I'll practice at it some more, hope you can travel to whobo his time around

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, how about this match?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzoCRCxEVho
Of course, since this is a Japanese style of play it is a no representation of American Olimar players but I think it gives you a general idea. I know it did for me.
Oh, and I don't think camping is the best thing to do. Heard CT ZeRo saying something about not giving Olimars time to think is the best way to beat them (he quoted different person but I can't remember who was the one responsible for the quote)

 

[fox67890]

I think he quoted M2K with that. I think you could kinda do it here though, as it also gives us time to think. It may not work in the MK vs Oli MU though, since MK can't camp olimar (well...kinda)
About that nullifying upsmash thing- I think if you fast fall dair, it works and continues to hit through from above. Nair also does it much easier, and you'll hit Olimar with a soft nair, which is good for combos. This assumes your coming in from the air though, so shine mixups are good before these options

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, down with Olimar and his walking vegetables! I guess I would generally try to not camp Olimar real hard. Hmm about shine... I heard that you can only shine-hop with certain pikmins? That true?

 

[Reckless4Christ]

By what I've heard either you can shine hop out of all pikmin except purples, OR you can only hop out of purples. Don't remember which one, though.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Hmm, I remember Yui talking about how he can only do that with blue or purple... I can't remember.... May be I should try to dig through his "Olimar Please Ban!" blog....

 

[knuckles213]

Zeton told me about that awhile back and I made a small section of this somewhere on here, tho its not useful in the olimar MU, it is in the pika and ICs MU. You can hop out of shine, but only if solid objects (Purple pikmin, lasers, gordos, etc) hit your reflector, then you could either SH into something or spot dodge into something (Dsmash, Utilt, etc).

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

I see... so it was purple! Them purple pikmin enables me to SH after shine. Ok, good thing to know.

 

[fox67890]

Yep, only purples.

You can reflect all pikmin from pikmin toss, but only hop out of shine from purple ones. I remember TKD saying that it might be worth to reflect whites though, as they do a lot of poisonous damage. It might be pointless to reflect purples, since they don't get tossed far iirc. I need a fact check on that last note.

When I get in on Olimar, I personally stay in and go for a string of damage, since camping feels somewhat iffy.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, me too. I heard that camping against Olimar is bad because his camping game will eventually gain advantage. By the way, do you guys really do take notes? I think I am interested in what you guys' notes say May be I should start taking notes too while at it.

 

[fox67890]

Well, you can camp him for awhile, but his camping works better with stage control, so you have to make a move here and there (not necessarily attack, but find some comfortable way to reset, like maybe going for an aerial approach, but than backing off by drifting away).

The only "notes" I personally take, is advice from an opponent after playing him/her. Since it's over wifi, it's an easy "copy & paste" thing into notepad or something on my computer.
Other than that, I just usually make mental notes on other things.

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Yeah, that's what I've seen in the vids of top Foxes usually do against Olimars.

Oh and about those notes... I thought as much. I go by my mental notes unless I am learning some difficult-to-perform stuffs. Mostly, I try to have my fingers and stuff memorize those things so that I won't have to think about it a lot when I am playing.