Hey Kirby peeps. I don't know if this is known to you guys but I found something today while just messing around in training mode. A very creative but effective edge guard option I have started using is floating off stage just a bit and using up b while retreating to the ledge to get people that are recovering a little high. Kirby will grab the ledge even if he is facing the wrong way unlike many characters recovery moves. This allows the move to spike someone if they are hit by Kirbys up b while he is descending to the ledge. The spike is initiated as Kirby cancels the move to grab the ledge. I wanted to share this with you guys because I love Kirby and think this will be a viable edge gaurd on people who tend to recovery a little high. Just be sure to move Kirby back towards the ledge as you come down to hit the person recovering or you will go down with him lol. If anything it is sure to get you style points on using that type of an edge guard in an effective way.
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Final Cutter Spike
- Thread starter KingChaos
- Start date
Garde Noir
Smash Journeyman
I have. I won't admit that I've seen them. But it's been seen a lot.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Is the cutter a true spike or a meteor? If it's a meteor, cutterside might not be worth much. The tactic OP describes would also be a little bit harder, but you're already on the ledge so you have a good chance at a ledge hog or ledge guard.
SSS
Smash Ace
I love this.
Also with the blanket recovery nerf coming. . .
:3
Also with the blanket recovery nerf coming. . .
:3
SSS
Smash Ace
I think in general we're pretty safe from recovery nerf. Maybe slight, but Kirby is supposed to have a good recovery. And side cutter is really really telegraphed, so it's easy to react to, and when you hit Kirby out of it he loses all jumps. So I think he'll be okay.
skellitorman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2005
- Messages
- 319
Kirby has low air mobility. He doesn't have the range or priority to fend off attacks well while recovering. Final cutter is weak as a recovery move for several reasons.
I am pretty certain that his recovery won't be worsened. Kirby is the third lightest character in the game and he is quite floaty. He deserves superior recovery abilities.
Edit: Although I can't imagine what they would do to make it worse if they did, I am certain that Kirby will be balanced in other ways should that happen.
I am pretty certain that his recovery won't be worsened. Kirby is the third lightest character in the game and he is quite floaty. He deserves superior recovery abilities.
Edit: Although I can't imagine what they would do to make it worse if they did, I am certain that Kirby will be balanced in other ways should that happen.
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SSS
Smash Ace
To be honest I like where Kirby is right now. I don't think there should be any major changes. I think they're going to nerf Dash Attack. I don't think they should, but people have been biotching. I don't know. I just like Kirby and I don't think he needs to be made better or worse.
skellitorman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2005
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Its not that Kirby is so good when played defensively. It's just that some of his offensive options are lacking, and that Chudat is really good at playing defensively.
I always tell people that Chu plays Fox pretty defensively... so its not the character its the player. But Kirby is weird, I want to be able to play Kirby like a better version of Melee Kirby, not so much more aggro options, just better options. Watch Hack or Armada's Kirby and you'll sorta see what i mean.
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G-Rabbit
Smash Journeyman
It takes more skill to play him properly, but Kirby is an offensive powerhouse when his options are mastered. His pressure game is definitely up there in the cast due to his mobility options. I get zero-to-deaths pretty often in tourney, and people who have a perception of Kirby being defense oriented are always blown away.
skellitorman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
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I disagree with Kirby being an "offensive powerhouse." His pressure game if perfected is quite strong, though I cannot say the same thing about all of the offensive situations. His neutral game is average at best. Lacking ground speed and air control really hurts when you have short range, and no projectile.
Although his KO power isn't lacking, his ability to get KOs are. Terrible sourspots on his smash attacks (Upsmash and downsmash), combined with them having small range, being relatively slow and unsafe on block truly hinder him. Although aerial hammer does work better than people think; the lack of air control, slow startup, and sweetspot hinder it significantly when combined. Bair and fair are most reliable but they have relatively low KO power.
His throw game is also surprisingly unrewarding. Not only does he not have a kill throw, but his throws do low damage overall which makes no sense (8%, 8% 7%, 4%).
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G-Rabbit
Smash Journeyman
I agree with his short comings with his neutral game and lack of projectiles. However, I think his offensive strengths are in his pressure game and combo game. Unless out of a grab or using d-smash in an edgeguarding situation, I almost never use his smash attacks. If you're good at reading your opponent, then Kirby has a ton of tools that you can use to wreck them.
His ground mobility is pretty good and wavedashing around with him is great because he duck under many things. He also has quick options to link together combo strings with side cutter and fast-fall off the platform dash attack, both of which work very well. If you hit with the aerial hammer consistently it's devastating, plus the fact that it's land-cancelable makes it relatively safe. A lot of the time you can even combo from bair to hammer off stage when the opponent tries to combo DI to avoid another bair.
His throws are one of the most important parts of his game. They may not kill on their own, but they're designed to set up into other moves that kill. His up throw works as a DI trap and sets up great options to kill off the top with an up-air (the move I probably kill with the most and even combos out of dash attack) or a side cutter into another aerial. His forward throw is another DI mix up that yields good results. If the opponent DIs inward, you can start a juggle chain with up-air. If the opponent DIs away, you can pursue with side cutter into another aerial. Down throw is a notable good tech chase option on those with higher fall speed, but the true power of it lies in the floaty matchups. Kirby has a true chaingrab (with JC grabs) on most of the floaty cast at relatively low percentages, and can finish them to death with a up-smash or f-smash. His back throw probably has the least utility and should only really be used to set up for edgeguard opportunities (although at low percents, it's pretty easy to follow up with a b-reverse side cutter).
He may not be a power house in the same sense as Fox or Lucas, and his options largely play on being able to out think your opponent, but he has way more offensive options than people are aware of.
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I agree with G-rabbit so much its almost scary. Also I would say a large portion of his KO potential comes from gimps. It was possible to edgeguard a lot of the cast in 3.0, which I was actually pretty decent at... but if the good recoveries get nerfed, even in the slightest, that just helps us. Once you can outthink your opponent, confuse them with movement, and mindgame them well, Kirby is quite good imo. He really doesnt need Puff like aerial mobility or Fox like speed unless thats how you try to play him (which you shouldnt).
Edit: I also lol at the fact that we're all talking about this in the Final Cutter Spike thread instead of like the social thread or w/e.
Edit: I also lol at the fact that we're all talking about this in the Final Cutter Spike thread instead of like the social thread or w/e.
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skellitorman
Smash Journeyman
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Most of the cast have smash attacks that are reliable, and as you said, you hardly ever use them. Dair does combo into smash attacks so they can be used that way for a guarantee KO, but there are many situations where the smash attack just doesn't work like one would think it would. For example if you dair against Kirby and certain other characters and then do a just frame Up smash right next to him, the attack just whiffs. It looks quite awkward.
Yes if you're good at reading your opponent then Kirby can wreck them, but that applies more or less to the whole cast. It's not a character specific attribute.
Of course I know how well his ground mobility is. I was a Melee Kirby player after all. He is small and quick (he has good acceleration it seems), but doesn't have great ground top speed (27th/41). Many characters have better mobility than him overall on top of having better range or other better things. If Kirby had good air mobility (37th/41), then it would make more sense, but he doesnt.
All the offensive options you mentioned here are as you said. Aerial hammer is good, but I do feel that if any one of those hindering factors were a bit better, it would be more reliable on the whole cast. Although I am relatively consistent with it, I feel that it may not be reliable in top level due to all the hindering factors.
As a Melee Kirby player I recognize that his grab game is extremely important. His Up throw can always be DIed away by most characters. Forward throw does work as you say, but at higher percents Kirby can't pursue with side cutter and so they get away with just the 4%. Down throw is as you say. Back throw is good because of the trajectory allowing for good edgeguard attempts, and it does a twice as much damage as forward throw guaranteed.
I don't see why Metaknight and many other characters have way more damaging throws than Kirby, on top of having equal if not better followups. I feel that Kirby should do alot of damage for getting grabs.
He does have more options than people are aware of. A lot of people don't really know about or understand the character, but I would not call him an "offensive power house" because of that.
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G-Rabbit
Smash Journeyman
A Melee Kirby, huh? More power to you man. That must be a rough life. I main Kirby in every game outside of Melee for reasons. I see what you're getting at, and I can agree that he may not be as much of a "powerhouse" as I initially stated. More of a miniature combo fiend, if you will.
Using multiple jumps for pursuit in the middle of combos help offset the low aerial mobility quite a bit. I think that's the only thing I wanted to add to your argument. Other than that, I can agree that he might need a little attention in the damage department. I'm hoping that the overall redesign going into 3.5 will at the very least give him indirect buffs. I'm excited for higher gimping potential.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
I find myself killing with air Hammer or gimps most of the time, and I agree that throws should deal more damage. Is it bad that I think U-Throw should kill midweights on typical stages around 170-180 and he should have a little more air speed? lol
skellitorman
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2005
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He will definitely be indirectly buffed with many characters' recoveries being addressed. This will only affect certain MUs obviously, but it will definitely help against some of his hard MUs which is good.
It makes so much sense for U-throw to have solid KO potential. His air mobility being higher also makes sense. I don't think anyone can make a good argument against that. I would be glad to debate that with anyone who does.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
Obviously giving him Jigglypuff/Wario/Yoshi levels of air speed would be silly, but somewhere between theirs and his current air speed would be good.
Tetraflora
Smash Rookie
I do final cut spikes all the time. I honestly feel it's one of Kirby's best gimping tools. I make great use of it in my normal play.
Also yeah I kinda agree that Kirby's grabs could do more damage, but I feel he's mostly fine as is.
I always looked at Kirby as a simple character that has really good potential for punishes and reading, while remaining a bit unorthodox to handle due to his size.
With things like his dash attack, cutter dash and wave landing he's rather capable of getting in and out of pressure. His low speed is helped out due to the nature of those attacks. Kirby is good at moving in short bursts quickly, then following up to get his opponent offstage after a solid combo, and then a gimp.
His smash attacks are very useful, the sour spot on dsmash are rather helpful due to the semispike angle and usmash is great against floaties. Angled down fsmash is enough to kill many weights early on, plus it has solid range.
Kirby is mainly good because his edgeguard options are vast, he can kill much of the cast as they CURRENTLY are very early. Kirby is super solid, but he accels at other categories compared to most of the cast
Also yeah I kinda agree that Kirby's grabs could do more damage, but I feel he's mostly fine as is.
I always looked at Kirby as a simple character that has really good potential for punishes and reading, while remaining a bit unorthodox to handle due to his size.
With things like his dash attack, cutter dash and wave landing he's rather capable of getting in and out of pressure. His low speed is helped out due to the nature of those attacks. Kirby is good at moving in short bursts quickly, then following up to get his opponent offstage after a solid combo, and then a gimp.
His smash attacks are very useful, the sour spot on dsmash are rather helpful due to the semispike angle and usmash is great against floaties. Angled down fsmash is enough to kill many weights early on, plus it has solid range.
Kirby is mainly good because his edgeguard options are vast, he can kill much of the cast as they CURRENTLY are very early. Kirby is super solid, but he accels at other categories compared to most of the cast