Final Smashes Tier List

[KuroganeHammer]

Otherwise, looking for varied feedback. Some of the things you pointed out are already on the to-do list for modifying. Some were new and require explanation/proof on your part. You can't just call something a blatant lie without proof...

On the same token, it's almost like you're kinda making things up as you go along.

»DI prevents ZSS's fs from doing much damage. If you can prove to me that substantial damage is inflicted within the first half-second of the move, I'll concede that. Otherwise, DI makes it ineffective. I know this from experience on both sides of the ball and observation.

There's only 1 hit that deals damage. The rest can't really be DI'd out of.

»Regarding the landmasters being avoidable in the hands of pros - can someone test this one? I really am uncertain as to how avoidable Wolf and Falco's landmaster is. Fox's would be much easier to avoid.

It always has hitboxes. It's unavoidable.

»I was confused as to how you disagree with the one for Pika; are you saying it can kill people from low percents efficiently, that it has other problems or both? If so, I will need some proof. I am no expert in Pika's fs department.

I remember seeing a video where this guy uses Pikachu's Final Smash and deals 180%, but unfortunately I can't find it.

»Umm ...Samus has a directional fs. Getting behind her helps in avoiding it. Feel free to disprove that one. (Maybe getting directly behind her fails? Explain your objection.)

She has hitboxes behind her. And it's not that easy to get behind her in the first place considering that the Final Smash takes up half the screen.

»Snake's taunt does open smash balls - that, or the timing mechanism altered results and I was misinformed, etc. I need testing proof on that one. He does obtain smash balls very easily, as almost everything he hits it with breaks it.
»I'll have to check with King Dedede; you may be right, but we'll see. A demonstration either way would be nice.
»You'll have to demonstrate how Squirtle and Charizard got mixed up so I can see that. Not that I don't believe you - I just need to see how that goes. My experience with them has been a bit different.
»Pit's arrows do score the final hit. Good aim and good timing pay off.

These ones all fall under your not understanding the basic physics the Smashball. As far as I can tell, the Smashball has a "health" meter that slowly depletes over time. Zelda's Lightning Kick doesn't break it immediately, but Warlock Punch does, so I think we can safely assume it's around the 30% mark, and I theorise that it's 30% health drops by 1% every few seconds.

As of such, Snake's taunt won't be breaking the Smashball unless your opponent is stupid, King Dedede would be better off chasing after the smashball and bair'ing it, while Squirtle, whose aerial attacks deal more damage and aren't multihit like Charizards, are far more reliable.

»You'll have to give me a more detailed report and demonstration regarding Ike's fs so I can gather more concrete details. Stage choice may also be involved (obviously).

No.

»DK is lucky if he damages you significantly (see avoiding final smashes online). You'll have to prove otherwise. Also, why is "timed tapping of the 'A' button" in red? What, you think that's not part of the smash? Are we talking about the same smash here? And why is "might be good for edgeguarding" in red? Is it bad for edgeguarding?

Sorry, it's just DK's placement annoys me because it's almost like you don't know how to tap A to the rhythm, so you automatically banish it to fail tier. It's actually pretty good and your spot dodge problems can be fixed just by mistiming the A button.

You can roll, you can escape, and it's not big enough to cover most stages (thus the emphasis on edguarding in the debates). This has been covered, there were vids, I have had this fs used on me many times and, thanks to z-rolling, have yet to die from it a single time in my entire life, even when I was a noob. You act as if Luigi can immediately move around after using it and no one can move in it. In this case, it would be a pretty impressive fs. But this is not the case, so I never mind having to "eat a Negative Zone," since the only damage I get is from flowers.

I think the more damage you have, the longer you stay asleep - but should an fs as good as you're claiming it is be that reliant on prior damage?

http://youtu.be/8Fz_D0aPfDU?t=1m40s

One got out. The other two would have been dead, but the guy playing as Luigi isn't very good.

 

[Sleek Media]

And yes, Sonic is a guaranteed kill. Ultimately, so is Warioman - with proper skill, no single player can avoid him for long. This high on the list, we're also looking for multiple kill capacity (which Sonic definitely has - thus his high placement). Sonic's obtainment isn't stellar, though.

I agree that Warioman is generally underrated. He's awesome...though still not quite as good as Super Sonic due to actually having to attack during his somewhat awkward movement, wheras Sonic can just hover on top of you to pop you up in the air, and just go wild from there. It's POSSIBLE to survive Warioman, but definitely the exception to the rule. I'd say he's about level with Negative Zone. Speaking of which...

You can roll, you can escape, and it's not big enough to cover most stages (thus the emphasis on edguarding in the debates). This has been covered, there were vids, I have had this fs used on me many times and, thanks to z-rolling, have yet to die from it a single time in my entire life, even when I was a noob. You act as if Luigi can immediately move around after using it and no one can move in it. In this case, it would be a pretty impressive fs. But this is not the case, so I never mind having to "eat a Negative Zone," since the only damage I get is from flowers.

I think the more damage you have, the longer you stay asleep - but should an fs as good as you're claiming it is be that reliant on prior damage?

Not sure if serious or trolling. It's possible to escape if Weegie messes it up, but if Weegie uses it properly, you won't. Basically, if you activate it while they are on the ground and close to you, there is a chance they won't be afflicted with tripping or taunting, and can just barely make it out in time. However, if you tag them in the air, they will tumble, pratfall in slow motion, and even without the status effects, be unable to escape in time. Also, you're talking about rolling out assuming that you start from the center of NZ. It's best to corner opponents with it, and make rolling out completely impossible. Videos of Luigis that don't know what they're doing do not add to your argument.

Prior damage is also irrelevant. If the opponent sleeps or taunts, it's always enough time to run over for a shoryuken, and it's a reliable kill on 0% opponents.

I am factoring that in - but in a small, small way. Most of the characters get the nice defensive boost, including Mario, so the defensive boosts often just sort of cancel each other out. I'll grant I could stand to factor in how much of a defensive boost characters like Ike get v Characters like ICs. I might make that a more significant factor. As I said, the claim that I was factoring in all of those things comes with the notification that I have not yet updated the tier list and that I still put obtainment and effectiveness as the two primary considerations.

I'm willing to hear remonstrations that the other factors should be considered just as important.

I hate to copy that other guy, but holy blatant lies. Mario has one of the worst final smashes, and he's one of the easiest characters to approach. A smash ball-holding Mario loses fireballs, one of his most important zoning moves, and in both 1v1 and FFA is a horribly vulnerable target. He has no strategic use for the finale, other than to get rid of it so that someone else doesn't get a better FS.

By the way, I usually head toward Luigi so I can roll out from his center no matter where he uses NZ. So his fs is defensive in that it forces an approach, not because no one wants to go near him. That being said, in a big course, it's not a bad idea to clear some distance.

Not to give you the canned Smashboards answer of "play better" or whatever, but you definitely need a more skilled Luigi as your opponent to help you understand how powerful that move is. I don't know what you're pulling on your friends, but it shouldn't work. A big course helps, but unless there's a ceiling above you, don't

Mario's fs is very situational and doesn't really kill unless they're directly behind you when you use it, but that's still not as bad as it could be. It's really bad - but it's not the worst, and the situations required in order to kill someone with it are similar to those of Mario's bair, which is why I can usually pull it off. It goes low, but not as the worst.

It really shouldn't kill ever. Sometimes it does, just because players aren't used to it, and mess up the DI. Still, with utterly abysmal damage, speed, and power, it's at the bottom tier. DK is the only one that might be worse. Even ZSS is less vulnerable on her transformation's cooldown, and she'll at least get 3 new suit pieces out of it (if you're the kind of player who considers that an advantage).

Overall, great feedback.

Yah velcome.

 

[SmashChu]

http://youtu.be/8Fz_D0aPfDU?t=1m40s

One got out. The other two would have been dead, but the guy playing as Luigi isn't very good.

None of those players were good. Lucas rolled the wrong way and the other was a computer. Had Lucas gone back, he could have gotten out of it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Had Lucas gone back, he could have gotten out of it.

No he wouldn't of.

 

[Kink-Link5]

We still haven't clarified if this list is exclusively for 1v1 or 4vs.

 

[Starwave]

Awesome, i'm glad you considered most of our changes!

Weegie Power
Again, just about every character that has you against the edge in smaller courses like FD can wreak havoc with their fs. I will grant that NZ shouldn't be in the same tier as Kirby Stew and Mario. That seems wrong. But that probably means, with the new tier arrangement, I'll be putting both of those in bottom tier and let DK keep ZSS company. Not that ZSS isn't worse (and yes, everyone I play, even CPUs, DI that one, as do I), since hers turns her into armored Samus.

I still think you're underestimating this Final Smash. Its not just on FD type stages where its effective and it covers most of the area around a fighter, not just a corner. Luigi's final smash is amazing because it automatically forces opponents to run away from you. This is invaluable for "trigger" type FS where some characters approach the FS user (with caution) in an attempt to remove their FS. On top of that Luigi's FS covers so much distance when used correctly. To remind you, you use it shortly above aground (not on the ground) in order to get the best out of the FS. I really want to stress that its among the best in the game and it should really be in high tier.

No he wouldn't of.

This

PS: Lucas' final smash is significantly worse than Ness'. Both are bad, but Ness can kill with a stray bolt at 80%, which is when the FS is actually useful.

 

[SmashChu]

No he wouldn't of.

In a span of 4 seconds, Lucas sat there, and rolled the wrong way. Even if he taunted at the first roll (which he might not of seeing as 2 rolls can happen in 4 seconds, he would have just enough time for a second roll and be completely out. What you said is totally wrong.

Also, if you say that luigi did a bad job, I can say so did the other players.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

In a span of 4 seconds, Lucas sat there, and rolled the wrong way. Even if he taunted at the first roll (which he might not of seeing as 2 rolls can happen in 4 seconds, he would have just enough time for a second roll and be completely out. What you said is totally wrong.

Also, if you say that luigi did a bad job, I can say so did the other players.

He sat there because he tripped and time slows down. And it doesn't matter. Had I been that Luigi and you had been that Lucas, you would have been dead since I would have forward smashed you while you were taunting no matter which way you rolled. k? kthx.

 

[SmashChu]

He sat there because he tripped and time slows down. And it doesn't matter. Had I been that Luigi and you had been that Lucas, you would have been dead since I would have forward smashed you while you were taunting no matter which way you rolled. k? kthx.

First, let me remind you that your evidence is a video where everyone is bad. My point stands that if you can say "Oh no, it's alright because what if Luigi was good," than I can say the other players messed up too.

Lucas tripped, but he could roll when he was on the ground. Watch the video again, and actually look how long he sits there. One roll takes a second, and you can roll from a sitting position. Two rolls and your free. So, what if instead of him sitting there for 4 seconds and going the wrong way, he rolled once he hit the ground and then did one more.

EDIT:Another reason your argument is wrong. Watch the video again. Lucas doesn't taunt immediately. He actually was on the edge of the stage (his "Oh no, I will fall" animation, and then taunts. To put it in times, he sits for 3-4 seconds after the NZ starts. He rolls into Luigi. And then changes direction and begins to taunt. You can not say the move is amazing because Luigi could of killed Lucas. Lucas could have done 1001 things to get out.

Here is some actually evidence. Here, the player in the negative zone was asleep when it started. He had enough time to roll out (only need 2 rolls) and still had a second or two before Luigi could attack (he still has to move to you as well. While not much, it adds to the long start-up).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lucas could have done 1001 things to get out.

Okay, how about if it was used in the middle of the stage? Negative Zone is big enough to cover the entirety of Smashville.

Here is some actually evidence. Here, the player in the negative zone was asleep when it started. He had enough time to roll out (only need 2 rolls) and still had a second or two before Luigi could attack (he still has to move to you as well. While not much, it adds to the long start-up).

Buuuuuuut it's not big enough to fill the entirety of FD which also happens to be the largest neutral stage (which seems a little unfair when Negative Zone covers all of the other 4 stages (except maybe Lylat, but lollylat). Doesn't really matter. Time for your opponent is still slowed down even outside the Zone and so is weight resistance. It seems to be the most luck based Final Smash imo, but it's still a good one. Luigi in the video you posted had nowhere to go. That's easily capitalised on by a good player.

 

[SmashChu]

Okay, how about if it was used in the middle of the stage? Negative Zone is big enough to cover the entirety of Smashville.


Buuuuuuut it's not big enough to fill the entirety of FD which also happens to be the largest neutral stage (which seems a little unfair when Negative Zone covers all of the other 4 stages (except maybe Lylat, but lollylat). Doesn't really matter. Time for your opponent is still slowed down even outside the Zone and so is weight resistance. It seems to be the most luck based Final Smash imo, but it's still a good one. Luigi in the video you posted had nowhere to go. That's easily capitalised on by a good player.

You don't have an argument. You are just throwing out things and hope they stick. The point I was making was Lucas gets out, and now we are changing this to "Oh, well, he could have done it in the middle." It's clear you have no focus.

Yeah, he can take up the whole stage, but so can DK and Jigglypufff. They also take up all of FD too. If we are going to talk about stages, we at least need to have some constant. Smaller stages work better for that type of Final Smash.

I was never saying it was bad. I am pointing out that everyone over hyped it and the video you posted proves nothing.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't care whether I have an argument or not tbh.

 

[Sleek Media]

Lol @ trying to reason with smashchu

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Unfortunately that quite accurately describes how I feel at the moment.

I just find it unfair that he theorises that Lucas could have gotten out had he 'done it right', but refuses to acknowledge that had Luigi done it right, Negative Zone easily covers the entire main part of Smashville allowing no escape for any of the 3 opponents.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't play with items on but if you can DI out of ZSS' final smash (and avoid the hitbox with high knockback) then hers is undoubtedly the worst, as even dsmash --> final smash wouldn't work.

DK's is definitely better, you can at least get your opponent off the stage, then start the final smash close to the ledge so that when they try to recover they get knocked away, or they will eventually after somehow grabbing the ledge.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You can't DI out of it. lol

I'm 99% certain of this, but if someone knows how, they should tell me.

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm not sure how the hitboxes on Power Suit work, but it's a crapshoot for me. Sometimes people take single digit damage and get out of it, other times I'll get full damage with the last hit. Maybe it's how you use it, or maybe it's DI. I can't get people to play with smashballs on often enough to say for sure.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The 1st hits actually don't deal damage. They deal 0% damage. Even I'm unsure of how they work, but I do know that it's a hitbox with the size radius of 50, it has freeze frames of 0.5x and it hits every 4 frames (I think)... So in one second it his about 15 times. That sounds about right I guess.

It can only deal 25%, so iunno how you're only getting single digit damage.

So much misinformashunnnnn. ~

 

[SmashChu]

Unfortunately that quite accurately describes how I feel at the moment.

I just find it unfair that he theorises that Lucas could have gotten out had he 'done it right', but refuses to acknowledge that had Luigi done it right, Negative Zone easily covers the entire main part of Smashville allowing no escape for any of the 3 opponents.

The point your missing is the fact that if Luigi could have done it better, than so can Lucas. I said this three times already. The reason I say you have no argument is your evidence is a video with a CPU and 3 bad players. We can sit here all day saying what if because the video shows nothing.

Additionally, small stages are always better for Final Smashes. Most character do better with them as, again, the player has fewer places to run. DK and Jigglypuff would also do better on Smashville than Final Destination for the same reason. In the same vein, most final smashes do worse on Temple.

 

[Kyoshi]

I'm still watching, but two things really quickly:

»First:

Sleek Media, don't lol at trying to reason with SmashChu. He has good points, and that comment was demeaning on a personal level. I don't mind an impassioned argument, but the opponent's argument and the opponent must be separated when confronting them.

Besides:

Here is some actual evidence. Here, the player in the negative zone was asleep when it started. He had enough time to roll out (only need 2 rolls) and still had a second or two before Luigi could attack (he still has to move to you as well. While not much, it adds to the long start-up).[/COLOR]
Areodrome said:
Buuuuuuut it's not big enough to fill the entirety of FD which also happens to be the largest neutral stage (which seems a little unfair when Negative Zone covers all of the other 4 stages (except maybe Lylat, but lollylat)). Doesn't really matter. Time for your opponent is still slowed down even outside the Zone and so is weight resistance. (Time is not. I don't think weight resistance is either, but I don't remember for certain. -Kyoshi) It seems to be the most luck based Final Smash imo, but it's still a good one. Luigi in the video you posted had nowhere to go. That's easily capitalised on by a good player.

All very good points.

»Second:

Additionally, small stages are always better for Final Smashes. Most character do better with them as, again, the player has fewer places to run. DK and Jigglypuff would also do better on Smashville than Final Destination for the same reason. In the same vein, most final smashes do worse on Temple.

This is true, and I think we need to establish our primary courses here and what effect they will have. The basic types of courses should be designated - small, FD, large, edgeless, chaotic, shifting and combinations of these. Feel free to come up with other categories or debunk those. A smash's effectiveness can be evaluated based on its cumulative performance. Expect most smashes to do worse on larger courses than smaller ones.

I would address more, but again, I'm watching right now, and I'm keeping commenting to a minimum. This is just to steer the conversation into a more productive vein as far as evaluation goes.

Keep up the input!

 

[Sleek Media]

I'm still watching, but two things really quickly:
Sleek Media, don't lol at trying to reason with SmashChu. He has good points, and that comment was demeaning on a personal level. I don't mind an impassioned argument, but the opponent's argument and the opponent must be separated when confronting them.

I'll LOL if I choose, and I do. There is no reasoning with SmashChu. It's funny to watch you guys try. This thread makes me feel like I went back to 2008, and am watching everyone complain about DDD being top tier. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[Lukingordex]

I remember of a rumor that Marth´s final smash can kill with 0% lol.

Is that right?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Kyoshi, please stop with the misinformation. Time and launch resistance are affected outside the circle.

 

[Kyoshi]

Kyoshi, please stop with the misinformation. Time and launch resistance are affected outside the circle.

I think I see the source of confusion. It appears as though Luigi's final smash has a slowing effect upon characters who stay in it; the longer you stay in the negative zone, the more you get slowed as the smash proceeds. It's like getting punched repeatedly; the more you're punched, the more punch-drunk you become.

Let's take, for example, an instance in which the player got out pretty quickly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Q7flsfdxY&feature=related

We see Ike has no problem making his second jump and tossing that smart bomb, then charging his side-b.

Now we see an example of a player who, for whatever reason, decided to keep his butt in the zone. When his jump happens out of the zone, it is slowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiWx49faymA

Your video shows how Lucas, who spent a considerable amount of time getting punched, became slowed even outside the zone. Ike, meanwhile, seemed to perform at normal speed (though it was hard to tell, since he didn't bother to move much).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fz_D0aPfDU&feature=youtu.be&t=1m40s

The vid on avoiding final smashes is the best example. Notice how, at first, he moves slowly outside of the NZ. As his time spent outside the NZ progresses (with a brief dip back in) he picks up speed, until his roll against the edge at the end, which he previously did slowly, is about at normal speed. Even his z-rolling in and out is normal speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIEGbpthU7M&feature=related

Again, I have no idea on launch resistance. I would assume it operates on the same principles, but I'm not sure.

P.S. Hopping Samus' final smash to get behind her is apparently possible even for Link. More importantly, he got (not directly) behind her, which is what I meant. I think Samus should have hopped before using the smash, though, so let's not be harsh on this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8PgMNZOcA8&feature=related

And here's ZSS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c_D93ANMBE
Is that DI? Maybe not. Apparently, the final smash actually spits out inept CPUs after 25% damage or so of its own accord. With no harmful side-effects. So if you stand and do nothing, you still won't die...
But yeah, you might not be able to DI out of it. Or need to.

Is that video misinformation? It's in slow motion so you can see it clearly.
You were right about the initial part being only one damaging hit, so I suspect it can't be DI'd. My misconception came from the fact that it seems to do the DI for you. So it can and cannot be "escaped."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdXeFvax7tM
Is this thing even designed to kill?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRBpaCoW-w
That was 26%.
Here's one where something actually dies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdAT-02UAD4
trololol
Okay, seriously, here's one where someone is KO'd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iSpl5iCu0k
Note the prior damage (80%). They were still dealt 25%.
I picked up a few others (non-fatal), almost all of which had 25% dealt. There was one with 32...

Note: If someone hits Samus directly after transformation, there will be pain and 10% more damage. But who would do that besides a CPU?

And now, just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hyJj5XNOes&feature=related
Not to be considered seriously. Just for laughs.

Keep discussing!

 

[Wasabi Gin]

Luigi
It's called the negative zone for a reason. Luigi can't kill squat with this final smash, but it's always fun to watch him try. He isn't bad at obtaining final smashes, which helps his situation considerably. Besides, one never knows when the right opportunity will come along; edgeguarding opponents is easy with this final smash.

I get plenty of kills with Weegee's final smash. It's basically a setup for free Super Jump Punches.

 

[GunBlaze]

I get plenty of kills with Weegee's final smash. It's basically a setup for free Super Jump Punches.

But it is moar hilarious to KO them with DTaunt

 

[Kyoshi]

I'm still modifying the original, but the modifications have been put on hold due to lack of testing (outside of a few YouTube videos). I might do some testing soon, but we'll see. Lots of stuff to do, and this isn't high on the priority list.

Again, any help testing would be appreciated.

 

[Jon Farron]

I thought about doing one of these years ago, but worried nobody would care, lol.

 

[ViperGold42]

personally I prefer the air.

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

I love how you put guess who for the Sonic tier. Guess Who is the founder of the Sonic Wiki called Sonic News Network. :D

 

[ShadowLink84]

I remember of a rumor that Marth´s final smash can kill with 0% lol.

Is that right?

That is correct.

Marth's Final Smash launches an opponent at the maximum speed possible regardless of their percent.

So, whether you hit them at 999% or 0% you'll still get launched at max speed which is instant death.

 

[TheWhiteBowser]

All of you are overlooking something crucial about rating the final smashes. Jigglypuff's is clearly number 1 because of the gigapuff glitch that can be performed on Eldin's Bridge. And the hitbox for Jigglypuff's final smash can KO all character at around 30% damage, dodging that swelling hitbox is virtually impossible. and let's not forget the gigapuff glitch. I mean really guys? Cmon the truly best final smash is the final smash that can break the game. And that final smash is Jigglypuff's final smash GIGAPUFF! Thank you and good night.

 

[DakotaBonez]

All of you are overlooking something crucial about rating the final smashes. Jigglypuff's is clearly number 1 because of the gigapuff glitch that can be performed on Eldin's Bridge.

Hahaha that's definitely the coolest, but if R.O.B. does the Eldin Glitch his Final Smash becomes infinite and he also gains invincibility, no damage and no knockback, unlike Jigglypuff who can still be attacked in his Giant form.

 

[himemiya]

I can't take this list seriously if peach isn't dead last.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I know this is quite the bump, but I was asked by somewhat what my thoughts on a Final Smash Tier List, and after quite a lot of thought and discussing it with other players in my scene, I think Ive come up with a pretty solid list. This is all assuming that high/top level players are using these btw and they also take the ability the moveset that the character has in able to properly use the Final Smash into account, so having things like confirms, traps, and such are HUGE.

Sonic

Pikachu
Falco
R.O.B.
Wario
Yoshi
Wolf
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy
Bowser
Fox

Meta Knight
Toon Link
Ike
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff
Zero Suit Samus
Marth

Link
Sheik
Zelda
Pokemon Trainer
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Samus
Pit

Lucas
Ness
Snake
Lucario
King Dedede

Olimar
Kirby
Mario
Peach

If there are any doubts/questions/etc Id be more than happy to explain why I ordered everything how it is.

EDIT: The only character im not completely sure about placing wise is Pit. His might have a bit more potential.

 

[Magnidude]

How is lucario at the bottom?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Jumping twice and then using your up b (or side b with some characters) completely dodges the entire thing. You can test it out with any character, as soon as Lucario uses it and starts flying up to the top of the screen, just jump up as high as you can to a corner of the stage and stay there for a couple seconds with your recovery move, and boom, you dodged the entire thing (and Lucario's ending animation is too long to punish you). You can also learn the timing of it and power shield the initial hit then immediately roll to a side, and just watch the laser slooooowly try to catch you while you laugh and nonchalantly walk away from it since even Ganon can move faster than the laser. The only reason its not lower, is that if you hit someone offstage, you can then immediately use it a basically edge guard with it lol.