Floaties need a counter-pick stage.

[EPsilon933]

Why can't Smash be a simple game with simple rules?

 

[Purpletuce]

5 stages sounds simple :D I bet if someone with a name worth knowing posted a poll on the boards to ban PS on the MBR stagelist, it would get enough results to get the MBR's attention for a vote.

 

[commonyoshi]

Someone just let purpleletuce into the melee backroom already. Imagine how much better his profile would look.

 

[Purpletuce]

I would like to be MBR eventually, but I think my input is a little too green at the moment, although I love your name :D

 

[4% APR]

Oh, and we ignore midwest tournaments and TOs when we talk about stagelists. Because the midwest is full of weirdos.

good call.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to be MBR eventually, but I think my input is a little too green at the moment, although I love your name :D

stick with it. we would love to have new intelligent members.

i also voted that we should go to 5 stages. the only difference is that i moved to get rid of FD.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think we can all agree that FD is a ******** stage at the least.

 

[ShroudedOne]

When prompted with your reasoning by Kal, you provided this direct quote:


You describe the transformations as dull (not cool or interesting) stalemates that are taxing (as opposed to fun). This distinction is made even more clearly by the fact that you went on to consider how it makes spectators feel to watch this "dull" gameplay. Not once did you address the point of competitive integrity and how the worse player may get an unearned advantage due to stage changes. If those are you actual reasons for wanting the stage banned, that's great, and I agree it makes it banworthy. I just haven't seen that in this thread, which is especially troublesome because the entire basis of the thread was balancing the game. If you made the same posts you did in some other thread, it may not have seemed so bad, but it's kind of incriminating when this is basically what happened:

Person makes thread about adding more counterpicks solely to benefit floaties.

Someone suggests banning PS instead.

You say "Thank you," then go on to talk about why the stage is bad for floaties. You didn't mention anything about the transformations until the 72nd post. The first thing out of everyone's mouth should have been jeering towards the OP for trying to balance characters by adding/removing stages. If you believe that Falco dittos on PS are just as uncompetitive as Fox vs. Peach on PS, then great, but I have the feeling you think PS is somehow only unfair for floaties, and never for other characters.

There was more that I said in my response to Kal, outside of what I quoted. I said "thank you" because rather than adding in a counterpick for floaties (when you look at every single stage that could be considered a floaty counterpick, they were all banned for a reason), and that it would be better to just get rid of PS. Not because floaties do poorly there, but because I don't really see it as competitve anymore (which I say in a second post). I didn't even go on to say why it was bad for floaties until after you and Strong Bad brought it up (for what reason, I don't know). My only other post pertaining to that stage was telling you that 10-15 percent was rather significant in Fox/Peach. Not about the stage itself.

I also don't exactly mean to be all shouty, I just feel like I'm being misinterpreted a little (though that might be in part my fault cause I am a little too ambiguous sometimes).

Falco dittos are just as noncompetitve as Fox/Peach on PS. I am consistent. It's just that, when people start saying, "Well, PS isn't really bad for floaties," then I feel inclined to say, "It kind of is." And I feel like you're saying I think that PS should be banned BECAUSE it's bad for floaties, which I haven't said once. And I don't think anyone else has.

@Umbreon: No one loses to a single stage in the current stagelist due to the stage alone. Or even some of the banned stages due to stage alone. If someone loses on KJ64, it's almost always because they were the worse player. Same with YS, and PS, and FD. The stages that have been most recently taken of haven't been removed because people "lose sets that they *shouldn't* lose." And if they have, then that is a terrible reason.

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon: No one loses to a single stage in the current stagelist due to the stage alone. Or even some of the banned stages due to stage alone. If someone loses on KJ64, it's almost always because they were the worse player. Same with YS, and PS, and FD. The stages that have been most recently taken of haven't been removed because people "lose sets that they *shouldn't* lose." And if they have, then that is a terrible reason.

Every once in a while I'll play my awful captain falcon and every ****ing time i'll get fountain on random. i lose to that stage all the time.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, well, i'm fine with banning stadium, just remove FoD as well while you're at it...today i was counter gimped while doing a rising dair from the ledge with fox..platform gets in the way blocking my attack, my brother promptly sh fairs me offstage while i'm in lag with sheik.

out of all the neutrals FoD has the most stupid random stuff happen. dreamland at least i can counter when the wind blows me..yoshi's i always think...why wasn't i keeping better track of the cloud (and at the very least I always have fall back plans for if the cloud does save them as opposed to suffering a real reversal which can happen on FoD


oh and sorry i'm not weighing in on all the fun..i have my own axe to grind...

funny thing is marth isn't even bad on FoD..i just dislike random factors causing matches to be won off of luck. Considering we typically play best of 3, dropping a match because a stock was entirely decided by the stage's stupid intervention is annoying even if it only tends to happen once every 5-6 matches.

 

[Kink-Link5]

FD and Dreamland are far more ridiculous than FoD.

 

[knightpraetor]

what the hell???? FD has no random factors at all.

 

[Deleted member]

what the hell???? FD has no random factors at all.

it just has no platform game either so the whole positioning game is based around ground control. it makes some match-ups way too one-sided to be neutral (marth vs fox anyone?), but it does exactly what a CP should do.

 

[Wake]

FD is preeeetty bad I agree.

 

[Beat!]

Someone suggests banning PS instead.

That must've been a really cool guy.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

PS shouldn't be banned. **** that ****.
KJ64 should be on in teams.

 

[Kal]

I think, as an act of tyranny, the MBR should release a ruleset banning everything but Pokémon Stadium. That'll show 'em.

 

[Cactuar]

Spoiler

Edit: This stuff is all explained somewhere in the ruleset thread. Repeatedly.

 

[Purpletuce]

Well, FoD is pretty stupid, in every way, FD is kind of unbalanced, but I like it as a stage overall, PS is too much of a gimmick, and not really necessary for competitive play. I remember a thread not too long ago about how the Japanese brawl scene did really well with 3 serious stages, and no gimmicks, so players focused on skill with characters more.

I propose 2 separate stage lists:

MBR competitive stagelist:
Dream Land - Battlefield - Yoshi's Story

MBR casual stagelist:
Nuetrals: FoD, DL, BF, YS, (PS/FD)
Conterpicks: (PS/FD), Mute city, Jungle Japes, KJ64, RC, Brinstar
FC ban system

The casual stagelist has more variety, allows players to have fun in not-so-serious matches but keeping a solid list of stages that aren't completely dumb like Big Blue.

 

[EPsilon933]

Brawl uses 3 neutral stages because the designs of the neutrals vary significantly among each other
FD = no platforms
BF = pyramid platforms
SV = single moving platform

I feel like mentioning that for possible correctness. Now apply something like that to Melee('s stages)

DISCUSS!

 

[Purpletuce]

^ Wow, good point, I never thought of that (never play Brawl, that might be part of it).
The three neutrals I suggested vary from each other quite a bit though:
Stage:_______BF_______DL_______YS
Ledge:_______Thin_____Medium___To ground blast line
Ceiling BL:____Average__High______Low
Sides BL:_____Average__Far_______Close
Stage Size:___Average__Largest____Smallest
Plat Height:___Average__Furthest___Closest
Variables:_____N/A_____Wind______Randall + Shy Guys

That is 6 major differences, although they all have the same general pyramid platform structure. . .

I dislike this idea, but I think the most similar to the Japanese Brawl stagelist is: BF FD (PS/Jungle Japes(if only there was no water or Clap Trap)

(Joking) **** it: Big Blue, Poke Floats, Flatzone, MK, Onett, Brinsar Depths on random.

 

[EPsilon933]

You can dissect YS, BF, and DL as deep as you want to but they're still pyramids. Same for FoD most of the time. Think more abstractly

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd say you're the one who can't think abstractly if you think the stages are similar enough based solely on their superficial platform arrangement. The blastzones, stage size, and ledges cause much more of a difference on the game than you give credit for.

 

[EPsilon933]

I know they make a difference, but they're not the biggest difference. Like Marth vs Fox: Compare YS, BF, and DL to FD

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth Fox on BF is not very different from Marth Fox on PS; or on DL it's not very different from Kongo Melee, except that that stage doesn't get used because of other aspects brought by its platforms, cannon, and Klap Trap.

Yes, a drastically different and polarising stage like FD is far different from most other stages in the game for almost any matchup. Other than that outlier, most matchups stay about the same on most stages with blast zone and size being a key factor in determining effective strategies.

 

[Purpletuce]

I dislike this idea, but I think the most similar to the Japanese Brawl stagelist is: BF FD (PS/Jungle Japes(if only there was no water or Clap Trap)

That would be my input on the thinking abstractly, although I also agree that the variables I mentioned are huge factors, and taking those few concrete factors, you can also see past them and there are more abstract differences in them, such as stage control, chain grabs and gimps. Marth Fox on YS when they are both under the center platform only allows chaingrabs at low %, but on DL, the CG lasts much longer, making that aspect work better for Marth. However, Fox's increased maneuverability on the stage and more areas to camp from allows Fox an advantage to DL instead of YS. Further from that, Fox can avoid tippers easier on the high platforms of DL, and is in more risk at YS. Then the blastlines make it so Fox's long recovery vs. Marth's shorter one, Fox prefers DL, and Marth prefers YS.

Then physical differences outside of the platform structure can be huge, although I will admit in the simple aspect of platform style, these stages are quite similar.

 

[hungrybox]

**** Pokemon stadium

 

[Purpletuce]

^ agreed, PS is quite silly. I realllly think the current stagelist should be changed, even if just PS is dropped.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Post reserved for when we whittle our stage list down to just battlefield.

 

[Jockmaster]

No it'll never be just BF

There are many people who think BF isn't a true neutral

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm one of those people.

 

[RFrizzle]

I'm so glad I live in the Midwest.

 

[R2_GP]

flat zone son

 

[red stone]

I say it should be fountain of dreams, yoshi's story, and battlefield only. No counterpicks, no anything. Each person gets to strike one. I think that would be legit. Then the rest of the games are played on that one level that hasn't been struck out. I think that would definitely be the most fair. It would be boring, but it would be fair.

-think about it. peach vs. fox. peach strikes out yoshi's b/c of small ceiling and fox strikes out fountain of dreams, everyone is happy.
-sheik vs. falco. falco strikes fountain of dreams b/c of small sides, sheik strikes battlefield. epic yoshi story match
-jigglypuff vs. captain falcon. jiggly strikes out yoshi's because he'll get *****, captain falcon strikes out battlefield.

whatever happens people are happy

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fountain of Dreams and Yoshi's are way too non-neutral. Everyone would always just strike to BF for almost every match between characters higher than D tier.

Just do BF only. No need for all those other stages.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya let's **** every stage, BF only. Are we still playing smash now? =/ I would be in favor of more stages not less.

 

[Kink-Link5]

In fact, BF is also too non-neutral.

No stages. Just have theory smash battles. I'll Yoshi DJC counter anything your frame perfect Fortresses can throw at me.

 

[Purpletuce]

I'm all for more stages, talking some 11 stage list. . . maybe even some shorter matches more stages (I think Bones0 had this idea?)

Actually. . . let us also adopt Swiss -> bracket, per Bones0's recommendation. . .

All T.O.s are now Bones0.

Bones0 for president.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Peach for top tier Bones First-Lady

 

[odinNJ]

I completely disagree with banning PS completely, we already have limited stages that are decent, and i love PS. Even though it would be nice for the stage list to not blatantly favor anyone (spacies) but o be honest, the stages outside of the current list are pretty freakin messed up. (im so sorry green greens you know i love you )