Floating to the Top v3.6: The Ganondorf Match Up Thread

[Bazkip]

Any advice on the G&W matchup? Going to Summit and first seed in my pool is a G&W main. I've got Bidooof in my region but he doesn't really show up often, though I did play him recently and just got roflstomped. I know I've gotta watch out for his disjoint and upB. Chef also seems like it could be troublesome. At least he dies early. For stages, I'm thinking big stages might be best to press our survival advantage. Any thoughts?

 

[CORY]

See if you can find junebug's match against Dakpo at ltc3. He purposely went solo dorf for the set, so you might be able to get some ideas for how to run the matchup from it.

I'm at work, or else I'd go find it myself : /

 

[bubbaking]

Rolex used to secondary G&W as a check/counter to Snake's bad MUs, but in the set that I beat him, I was able to beat that with Ganon. Also played a ton of friendlies in that MU for practice.

I really don't think you want to be going to bigger stages. Gdubs is way more mobile than Ganon and having a bigger stage simply accentuates that. It's really hard to get a 'survival advantage' against him because he is so ridiculously good at killing in three major areas: out the sides (fsmash, 9 hammer, nair), off the top (usmash, dsmash, upB combos), and gimping (like, everything, lolz). Meanwhile, his recovery is good enough that he can always make it back if he isn't outright KO'd. I personally think we should bring him to smaller stages to level the playing field.

To me, GW kinda feels like a slower MK with dumber combos. I personally feel that Chef isn't really a big deal, although it's still pretty annoying. What is a huge deal is the fact that G&W can randomly throw out stage-traversing DACUS's that are safe on block. However, I'm pretty sure we can jump over that on reaction and stomp his head. On the ground, keeping him out with ftilt is good. Luckily, we out-range him on most of his moves, and we can jump over some of them, like his dtilt, too. We can wall fairly effectively with bairs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we can CG Watch to mid %'s at which point we get a hard punish off. At that point, he should already be close to death, lolz. Grabbing him can be tough, though; I think he can duck under our grabs with the early frames of his crouch (his hurtbox rises after a little bit). When edgeguarding, just remember that pretty much everything out-prioritizes his upB hitbox and he can't act until after he hits the apex. If he doesn't sweetspot, you can fair, stomp, dangled ftilt, etc. I find that ledgehogging Game can be tricky only because his upB has no landing lag, it's hard to gauge when he's no longer able to make it onstage, and he can DJ after it.

It's really weird trying to DI his throws properly because as far as I can tell you can't identify which one he's actually using. Well, actually, that's a lie. I went in frame advance and found the only difference between the four. Right as he launches you, his hands take up a position. If he will throw you to side, the hand on that side will extend. If he will throw you up, one of his hands will point upwards. If he will throw you down, then his hands take a symmetrical neutral stance by his sides. How does this help you? Well, the painful answer is that it doesn't. As far as I could tell, the throws are completely identical up until that instant that he launches you, meaning you can't possibly react and DI accordingly; you have to guess. I simply don't understand why the PMDT left this nonsense in when they made moves to remove many of the other DI trap throws in this game and make general throw games less silly overall. This especially doesn't make sense when you consider that, in Melee, you CAN tell the difference in his throws and react accordingly by looking at how the character being thrown shifts his position in relation to the other little black balls hovering above Gdubs. Just part of why I think Game & Watch is a little stupid right now.

 

[Bazkip]

Welp didn't matter in the end, still got bopped by HammerTime. Not that I actually expected it to go differently. He ended the set with a 9, rip my pride ;_;

Oh well, still got second seed at least.

 

[_noname]

So I just played against a falco who only spammed laser the entire game. Made me shield and he instantly shine pressured me and followed up to a shine, dair, shine, dair combo. Is there anything else that I can do against his damn lasers? Powershielding would be the most obvious thing but it's hard to pull it off when you play with 3-7 buffer.

 

[CORY]

it's a really rough matchup. if you can get to a stage with platforms (ps2, bf, etc...) you can use those to force him to move closer or commit heavily to a jump before lasering. otherwise, look for an opening in his pattern of lasering and try to mess up his spacing by moving slightly in or out as he approaches, before shielding. if you get him to commit to a poor laser (or a poor followup, because you changed the spacing) you can go for an aerial oos, but you need to make it really count when you get that hit.

when he starts shield pressure remember that shield di out can help a lot with it and that sometimes the better followups for them leave gaps to exploit (typically the best bets are oos nair or upb. upb is real risky, though). and don't be afriad to buffer rolls or spotdodges out of shield pressure as well. just make sure to keep away from anything predictable or else you'll start to eat big punishes from him (sometimes that means rolling towards the ledge at high percent or even just sitting in shield longer than expected to see if he'll read a roll that didn't happen).

i don't have much in the way of specific advice on this, sadly. like i said, just try to keep your spacing on him different if you don't have momentum and be ready to mixup oos options when he gets in. if you get your hit, you'll need to go in hard and get him offstage, since he actually has a bad recovery (distance wise). if you get one proper read offstage, falco should just die, he doesn't get the extra chances fox does from the length of upb.

 

[Squints~.~]

Long time lurker here, but _noname I've generally found that SH->Float will get away from his SH->Lasers until he either needs to jump higher to hit you (in that case, cape and he's stunned) or approach (float cancel-> waveland -> f-tilt if he's close enough). I agree with CORY, really tough matchup, but you need to be conscious of the horizontal plane that both Ganon and Falco are on at any given time. Really just need to keep moving.

It's also fun messing with his recovery... I've hit some really flashy dairs on Falco when he knows he's too far from ledge to up-b recover, so they go for side-b. For that time, you know where he's going to be and it's all about timing. As long as the dair comes out while he starts moving, it's a low risk-high reward guard :D

 

[Taytertot]

im curious if you all think that ganon has an MU that he does better then roy?

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

You can reflect the laser with his cape, but I'm not sure how effective that would be.

 

[Spralwers]

im curious if you all think that ganon has an MU that he does better then roy?

DK for sure.

Maybe on smaller stages vs campy characters that can put out big hitboxes pretty easily (like Zelda). Possibly DDD and Charizard.

 

[Squints~.~]

You can reflect the laser with his cape, but I'm not sure how effective that would be.

It's good for a single shot reflect, but with the campier players that don't fire less than 5 shots in neutral, you're still a bit stuck. One thing I recommend is, when starting on a stage that puts you level with Falco (all of them except Dreamland IIRC?) then start the match immediately with a cape. Almost every space animal seems to opt for this in the beginning of the match because it's relatively safe for them to put on damage as early as possible. If you reflect their very first (maybe first few) lasers, you discourage them from camping right off the bat, take a slight percent lead and typically they make a forced approach.
One match started much like this, with me caping their initial laser. The Falco stood in place on the other platform for another second before saying, "Oh, okay..." and then started an aggro up-close neutral game. It's a hard read to cape lasers after this, but whenever a spacie backs up against a Ganon, they're probably going to start shooting at you. Recognizing this is a great way to discourage campy playstyles, but you can't straight up beat the lasers everytime IMO.

 

[Taytertot]

DK for sure.

Maybe on smaller stages vs campy characters that can put out big hitboxes pretty easily (like Zelda). Possibly DDD and Charizard.

you might be right about DK but from all the discussions i have on the ganon threads it doesnt sound like DK vs ganon is in ganon's favor. i dont know the DDD MU well enough to say either way, roy combos DDD really hard but ive heard that some roys have issues with it. Charizard is a walk in the park for roy imo i think that MU is heavily in roy's favor.

What do you think about ganon vs samus in comparison to roy vs samus? im not a big fan of roy vs samus though i would say its more of a personal dislike then a bad MU.

 

[Yallo42]

What matchups do you guys think ganon has the advantage in?

 

[Taytertot]

What matchups do you guys think ganon has the advantage in?

well id say bowser but idk what else. it feels like ganon has a lot of even or bad MU's.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

really? I think ganon can stand up to most of the cast with having just crispy spacing. His neutral isn't amazing but his punish game is amazing. He might not be super favored in some matchups, but he doesn't have any impossible ones like some characters.

 

[Taytertot]

really? I think ganon can stand up to most of the cast with having just crispy spacing. His neutral isn't amazing but his punish game is amazing. He might not be super favored in some matchups, but he doesn't have any impossible ones like some characters.

i agree with you for the most part but i dont feel that great punish game alone makes up for slow mobility or laggy attacks in most cases and so other characters have to player very safe to not get punished by ganon but that merely means that they have to play very solidly. i feel that ganon's spacing tools is what allows him to go even in many MU's like marth for instance. One should assume that their opponent is going to play pretty solid when theory crafting i feel so in theory ganon will lose simply by not being able to get in his heavy punish game and not having fast enough attacks to dictate the pace of the match. That being said i really like ganon and i do think hes a good character i just dont know that id say hes better then most. I feel the same way about bowser and charizard. bowser has a great punish game and can handle himself with good spacing but hes bound to take some damage due to a lack of movement and cant win a game of attrition because of it and so the other characters just have to play very safe and careful to beat bowser.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

i agree with you for the most part but i dont feel that great punish game alone makes up for slow mobility or laggy attacks in most cases and so other characters have to player very safe to not get punished by ganon but that merely means that they have to play very solidly. i feel that ganon's spacing tools is what allows him to go even in many MU's like marth for instance. One should assume that their opponent is going to play pretty solid when theory crafting i feel so in theory ganon will lose simply by not being able to get in his heavy punish game and not having fast enough attacks to dictate the pace of the match. That being said i really like ganon and i do think hes a good character i just dont know that id say hes better then most. I feel the same way about bowser and charizard. bowser has a great punish game and can handle himself with good spacing but hes bound to take some damage due to a lack of movement and cant win a game of attrition because of it and so the other characters just have to play very safe and careful to beat bowser.

Ganon is basically as good as a big character should be. I think they nailed him imo.

 

[Yallo42]

I don't like ganon vs spacies or small characters like squirtle, but I'm okay with most other matchups.

@ ForgottenLabRat cool profile pic

 

[Taytertot]

Ganon is basically as good as a big character should be. I think they nailed him imo.

i see your point but i feel that fundamentally big characters as an archetype arent generally equal to the potential of their faster peers. I do think that ganon feels right as a character and that he makes sense considering his size but i would like to see the big characters gain something to allow them to have better MU spreads because im not really one to believe that some characters should have a larger amount of bad MUs then others just due to their playstyle and physics.
To bring it back to the bowser example, i feel that anyone who mains other characters regardless of the character probably thinks that they have an advantage against bowser and i like bowser as a character and playstyle a lot but i agree that he doesnt have an easy time competing against the rest of the cast and does poorly against most if not all of the other characters unless there is a lack of MU knowledge from the other player or a large skill gap between the two players.

 

[Spralwers]

you might be right about DK but from all the discussions i have on the ganon threads it doesnt sound like DK vs ganon is in ganon's favor. i dont know the DDD MU well enough to say either way, roy combos DDD really hard but ive heard that some roys have issues with it. Charizard is a walk in the park for roy imo i think that MU is heavily in roy's favor.

What do you think about ganon vs samus in comparison to roy vs samus? im not a big fan of roy vs samus though i would say its more of a personal dislike then a bad MU.

DK vs Ganon is not in Ganon's favor, (I think DK slightly wins), but it's much more bearable to play than as Roy. Ganon's neutral advantages of walling out and punishing lag (or reading someone's movement) with dash attack out of dash dance are not at all invalidated by what DK does in neutral.

Regarding vs Samus, I think that's more of a MU preference. Both have the tools to deal with missiles, but how they punish once they get in are pretty different.

 

[Taytertot]

DK vs Ganon is not in Ganon's favor, (I think DK slightly wins), but it's much more bearable to play than as Roy. Ganon's neutral advantages of walling out and punishing lag (or reading someone's movement) with dash attack out of dash dance are not at all invalidated by what DK does in neutral.

Regarding vs Samus, I think that's more of a MU preference. Both have the tools to deal with missiles, but how they punish once they get in are pretty different.

thanks i might have to use ganon vs DK though maybe i'll find another character to pocket for that MU. Samus would definitely be more about character preference for me, i really dont like samus vs roy but i know many people can handle it just fine.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

i see your point but i feel that fundamentally big characters as an archetype arent generally equal to the potential of their faster peers. I do think that ganon feels right as a character and that he makes sense considering his size but i would like to see the big characters gain something to allow them to have better MU spreads because im not really one to believe that some characters should have a larger amount of bad MUs then others just due to their playstyle and physics.
To bring it back to the bowser example, i feel that anyone who mains other characters regardless of the character probably thinks that they have an advantage against bowser and i like bowser as a character and playstyle a lot but i agree that he doesnt have an easy time competing against the rest of the cast and does poorly against most if not all of the other characters unless there is a lack of MU knowledge from the other player or a large skill gap between the two players.

I agree that big characters are just overall worse than the faster characters, but that is honestly how it should be. It takes a long to get to the point with a character like fox or ness to win against a big if the big character knows what they are doing. But once you start getting to higher levels, the tables turn and high skill cap characters like start winning those match ups because they put more time into those characters. In order for two people at the same high level to have an even game between a fast and slow character should mean that the fast character be very crisp on execution with using the technical technique, and the big character with amazing spacing and knowledge of both characters. This is of course very loose and there are many other factors, but this is what it should be like imo. Big characters should always be a little worse than fast characters on paper making them have to super presise spacing as to make them just as hard to play as fast characters.

 

[CORY]

that's terrible design and balance. sounds like you're saying that, at high levels, an entire class/archetype of characters should be worse off, just because they beat scrubs really well.

that's not how design and balance works, at least not in this game. they want characters balanced around high level play, not "oh, those guys are great at low levels of play because people don't understand how to not roll centerstage every time. we'll just let them be worse off at top level. that's great design."

slow characters are already terrible at neutral, because that's how the game is. they have slower moves, but bigger hitboxes. but, the characters are (mostly) inherently less mobile, meaning they're taking a double penalty at that point for a slight gain. the slower attacks also tend to make them much more highly committal, which means that the fast characters just run around and don't have to worry as much about losing stage space because the slow characters don't get to threaten it efficiently and literally depend on the other guy making a mistake, rather than trying to force them into making that mistake through available tools.

and many of the faster characters still get strong conversions and punishes out of neutral, anyway, making another supposed bonus of the heavy hitters moot, since they win neutral far more often and easily, so even if they only get 40% instead of 60% they'll get 40% much more often and can often convert into taking stocks efficiently, still.

ganon has terrible matchups against most of the cast. that's not good balance or design, nor is it definitely not how "it should be". it should be "fast characters can dictate the pace of the match better, they get less reward for doing this, but get that reward more. slow characters can't dictate the pace of the match as well, they get a better reward less often. work it out in the game."

 

[Yallo42]

@ CORY I see what you mean, but I feel like characters that are slower and easier to play should be worse than fast characters that need a lot of commitment to master.
PMDT needs to balance not just every character's total strength, but also their matchups with all the very unique cast, and make them roughly equal in required tech skill, which I shouldn't need to say is no easy task.

 

[eideeiit]

If anything slower characters require more commitment to master as they have way more bad MUs and usually any mistake they make is a lot more easily punished than that of a fast char.

I think you're thinking of learning as opposed to mastering. And that shouldn't matter. When a melee Fox complains how much easier Jiggs is to play, which btw is only true on low levels and tech skill wise, people don't feel him. They tell him to git gud.

 

[Taytertot]

my general thought on how MUs should be balanced ideally is that every character more or less goes even with a third of the cast, has a good MU against a third of the cast and has a bad MU against a third of the cast regardless of archetype.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

my general thought on how MUs should be balanced ideally is that every character more or less goes even with a third of the cast, has a good MU against a third of the cast and has a bad MU against a third of the cast regardless of archetype.

I agree, but the macthups shouldn't have a huge impact, they should just give one player a slick edge to promote learning several characters, not say who should always win.

 

[Taytertot]

I agree, but the macthups shouldn't have a huge impact, they should just give one player a slick edge to promote learning several characters, not say who should always win.

true. id like it to be +1 with good MUs, and -1 on bad MUs. hardly even close to unwinnable MUs

 

[HiroProtagonist]

What the **** does the Dark Lord do to overcome his arch-nemesis- Link? I have played a lot of Links and am very confident in my edgeguarding and punishes but that simply does not matter if I can't get through his wall of rangs, bombs, and arrows. I can powershield the rangs pretty consistently but miss one and I get grabbed and sent into Link's vortex of obnoxious multihit moves and HIYAHHs before dying to my least favorite finisher in the game, the spin2win. **** LINK

*sigh*

You might have noticed I have some resentment towards this character. But seriously- what are Ganon's best options for dealing with Link's projectiles in the neutral? Should I be focused on powershields? How useful is WD OoS, and when should I use this? Should counterplay using bombs even be attempted? Any advice here would be really useful since I feel like I am consistently losing to players worse than I in this matchup. If I continue to lose I may look into developing a Falcon counterpick but I would prefer to better myself as a player and as a Ganon main by learning how to do it with the Dorf.

 

[Taytertot]

(had an internet issue when trying to post this the first time so im sorry if this is a double post, it doesnt appear to be)

What the **** does the Dark Lord do to overcome his arch-nemesis- Link? I have played a lot of Links and am very confident in my edgeguarding and punishes but that simply does not matter if I can't get through his wall of rangs, bombs, and arrows. I can powershield the rangs pretty consistently but miss one and I get grabbed and sent into Link's vortex of obnoxious multihit moves and HIYAHHs before dying to my least favorite finisher in the game, the spin2win. **** LINK

*sigh*

You might have noticed I have some resentment towards this character. But seriously- what are Ganon's best options for dealing with Link's projectiles in the neutral? Should I be focused on powershields? How useful is WD OoS, and when should I use this? Should counterplay using bombs even be attempted? Any advice here would be really useful since I feel like I am consistently losing to players worse than I in this matchup. If I continue to lose I may look into developing a Falcon counterpick but I would prefer to better myself as a player and as a Ganon main by learning how to do it with the Dorf.

WD OoS is useful in all MUs imo. id say you could definitely use it if youre confident/want to learn the timing for catching a bomb OoS which could give you some help in mitigating link's projectile game as a whole. also if you keep catching his bombs the link player might give up on using them which gives you one less projectile to worry about. id say counterplay with bombs should always be attempted or with any item character for that matter because item characters tend to have at the very least, some reliance on them. if you have a bomb in hand then link then has to be careful about overcommitment with projectiles because hitting him with his bomb could potentially open him up enough for you hit him offstage and edgeguard him to death.
idk whether youve tried this or not but stage choice can significantly help you to reduce the effectiveness of his projectiles by having platforms to move around on. i also feel that float can, in some situations, help you to avoid a projectile and punish the projectile attempt when trying to find a way in. idk if regular shielding a rang will keep you from being able to spotdodge the proceeding grab but link's grab is somewhat slow and iirc link got a nerf to the end lag of rang by something like 4 frames or so, which might be enough to spotdodge the grab, which would definitely give you time to punish hard. otherwise id say that trying to bait out link's laggy sword moves with a dash in and then WD out to avoid the close range attack for a (usually) free ftilt or dtilt or something (you could even try downB for a hard read if the link tries to play it safe when you dash in and WD out but is still pretty close to you since downB will beat out a lot of stuff).

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Going to be playing a lot of friendlies with a Link player this week and hoping to utilize jabbing the projectiles and wd out of shield and float more to get in and avoid becoming combo food. Will report back with effectiveness/observations on stages

 

[Taytertot]

Going to be playing a lot of friendlies with a Link player this week and hoping to utilize jabbing the projectiles and wd out of shield and float more to get in and avoid becoming combo food. Will report back with effectiveness/observations on stages

hopefully it helps. cant say that i have a lot of experience with this MU as i prefer roy against link so my thoughts were more theory then practice.

 

[HiroProtagonist]

While I'm here- thoughts on Sheik/Ganon? Has this matchup changed any lately? Havent played it out since 3.02 and having a hard time theorycrafting based on patchnotes

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

While I'm here- thoughts on Sheik/Ganon? Has this matchup changed any lately? Havent played it out since 3.02 and having a hard time theorycrafting based on patchnotes

Our MU thread writes off Ganon as pretty easy for us. Check it out

 

[CORY]

While I'm here- thoughts on Sheik/Ganon? Has this matchup changed any lately? Havent played it out since 3.02 and having a hard time theorycrafting based on patchnotes

nothing important changed from melee. if you can grab her, you can dthrow shiek to death, probably, and float allows a little bit of leeway to work around needle camping, but shiek still does all the things ganon hates so it's super uphill : /

with regards to the link matchup: i'm honestly not sure of good ways to deal with the projectiles. if he gets a bomb out you can't go for the usual strategy of just powering through everything because it'll blow up and hit you. i tend to try and float around full jump to try and pull out the boomerang and either reflect or aerial it and hope to get through potential bombs by staying over them, typically. i think someone mentioned air dodging to catch them? if you can pull it off semiconsistently you can up the game by doing instant glidetosses as you catch the bombs with the airdodge. not as effective as with other projectiles, since you can get caught by the explosion if there's something else coming your way, but you can still mix up your angles a little bit (like, airdodging up-forward as you throw forward, to keep out of direct line of fire).

 

[Spralwers]

While I'm here- thoughts on Sheik/Ganon? Has this matchup changed any lately? Havent played it out since 3.02 and having a hard time theorycrafting based on patchnotes

Definitely better than melee, and maybe slightly better since 3.02.

Sheik's biggest weakness is good dash dancing. In melee, Ganon's DD wasn't threatening because his only threatening option out of DD, grab, required Sheik to whiff a grab/dash attack or hit dash attack on the front of Ganon's shield. And Ganon had to be close enough to punish the endlag with his tiny grab. In this game, dash attack and side B are both threatening. Ganon can certainly catch a Sheik out of her movement with a dash attack if he gets the proper read, and side B (especially a wavebounced one), is scary if Sheik is cornered at the ledge. Ganon gets decent burst movement off an almost horizontal wavedash (def a little more than his initial dash), and his wavedash is a little quicker on start up compared to 3.02, which helps with his DD. I don't think Sheik can punish a max spaced dtilt/ftilt OoS, so those are additional viable tools too. Boost grab can be used to punish whiffs if you're just a bit too far away for a dash grab to connect. Now combine all this with the melee meta of well spaced in place/approaching/retreating aerials, and now you have a legitimately threatening neutral for Sheik to fight.

Of the MUs vs melee tops, I prefer this MU the most, because I know if I camp outside of Sheik's dash attack/boost grab range, Sheik can't do anything. She has needles but at that range they're easily shielded, maybe even caped too with how quick cape is active and long the active frames of cape are. Fox I always have to be worried about run in shine/grab or nair, Marth I have to worry about DD dtilt or grab, Falco I always have to worry about lasers.

I think overall the MU is something like 45-55 (for Ganon), but I could see it being even at a top level. Make sure to use C stick down for dash attack so you can do it immediately.

I think in general, Ganon's MU spread is highly stagelist dependent. Vs characters with good DD, the MUs hover around even on smaller stages. On bigger stages, Ganon is at a clear disadvantage Vs characters with good DD.

Cape is good vs Link btw. It's active frame 3 so you can use it on reaction. Mix it into your general plan. Since it's active for a while, you can also try to use the ending frames of cape to reflect so you can act sooner after reflecting.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

That's really interesting, since you described what the Sheik MU thread described not to fall into. Sheik can still zone Ganon pretty well w/ spaced B-Airs, N-Airs and needles. I will agree from personal experience that Ganon would have a field day tech chasing Sheik w/ Side B, etc from knock downs.

 

[Spralwers]

Sheik should very sparingly use nair and bair in neutral. Ganon can beat those easily with a well spaced fair or uair. And due to the power of his aerials, he will convert much harder than Sheik. He can also punish landing lag with dash attack, since dash attack also leads to insane conversions. That combined with it's burst movement make it terrific in the MU for reads on Sheik's movement and punishing lag.

edit: Ganon can also CC sheik's aerials, especially nair and bair if the weaker hitboxes connect, and get a free punish.

edit2: The main difference in this MU vs melee, at more of a meta level, is that Ganon no longer needs to play an aerial based neutral vs Sheik. He can play a DD heavy, ground-based neutral, where he mixes in ftilt/dtilt (with dtilt being a terrific combo starter) with a couple aerials thrown here and there for zoning. He has dash attack with a sprinkle of wavebounced side b for deadly conversions to punish whiffed attacks and reads on Sheik's movement. Once Ganon starts playing a DD based neutral, Sheik also has to engage in DDing, otherwise she leaves herself open to getting hit by Ganon's large + low endlag hitboxes. But Sheik covers very small distance on her DD, so she can't engage in the DD camping that fundamentally allow much stronger characters like Fox to beat Ganon.

Watch Red Ranger vs M2K game 2 at Paragon to see what I mean. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He2J3RQJgKg It's not a totally perfect representation because M2K gets discouraged and plays Zelda for a couple stocks, but you can see how Red Ranger's neutral which uses a great mixture of ground moves + aerial moves is very difficult for M2K's Sheik to deal with.

 

[Narelex]

I'm trying to keep the MK MU chart updated. Current thoughts on the MU?

 

[Spralwers]

I'm trying to keep the MK MU chart updated. Current thoughts on the MU?

MU depends on the stagelist. MK has the mobility, range, and priority to engage in the DD camping that fundamentally beats Ganon's toolkit, so Ganon should at the minimum be -1 against him. If the stagelist allows MK to avoid all the small stages (i.e. FoD, GHZ, Warioland, Castle Stage), I could see Ganon being -2.