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For smash 4 to succeed, we need to change

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Very soon, we're going to know a lot more about smash 4 than we already do, and it's quite possible that the game itself is getting pretty near. I haven't really been active in the smash community in a few years, but I've spent a whole lot of time thinking about how things went with Brawl. To be brutally honest, we as a community have really failed to realize the potential the series has. As far as I can tell, attendance on everything is down from where it was when I was active, and compared to truly successful competitive games like League of Legends, we never were anything in the first place. I firmly believe that none of this is smash itself's fault; the smash games are brilliant games, and they have an incredible potential for both widespread appeal and deep competition. I think we fail to realize this potential because of what is at core one single issue, a truly crippling one that is entirely self inflicted:

We don't work together.

For serious, just look at all the major issues that came up during the years of Brawl's lifespan as our main game:

-Melee vs Brawl. This stupid argument carried on for years, and it was an absolute toxin on the entire community. I could go on for hours about how terrible this argument was, but it can be summed up simply. Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.

-Meta Knight. Honestly after about a year we should have realized that we were really never going to ban him, but for basically the game's entire lifespan we fought it, constantly re-arguing about how we were going to ban him but then never doing it. Eventually we did... and then we settled on undoing that. Winner? No one. Loser? All of us.

-Stages. There were basically two competing and polar opposite visions of what the stage list for the game should be. We started with a very "liberal" stage list, but there was always a war over it and a dynamic that guaranteed the eventual victory of the "conservatives". Stages that were banned were almost never unbanned, and all they had to do was get something banned in one region and rely on time until that ban would spread. Players in a region with any given stage banned would have no experience on it and would inflate the ranks for banning it, and momentum would inevitably build. After one set of "controversial" stages was finally mostly banned, new stages could be thrown into our never ending battle. Eventually we were down to single digit remaining stages, and nowhere on this road did the regions agree on a stage list.

These large problems and several other small ones had the common theme that we as a community dedicated an overwhelming amount of effort to fighting each other, and for it we had to show a lot of hurt feelings and a game that was literally not the same game between two different events. The backroom in theory was supposed to resolve this by limiting discussion to a handful of experts, but as someone who was involved, I can say in practice it didn't work to that effect. What we the broader community spent a lot less effort on was promoting the game and growing the community. We'd even go so far as to carry our petty arguments with each other outside of our community. When you go on SRK, someone from outside of the community posts that smash sucks, and the response from us they get is "well, Brawl sucks, but Melee is different!", what does that tell them and anyone else reading that exchange other than that we're just a joke? It certainly does nothing to encourage anyone to play any smash game, Melee or Brawl.

So far it seems like I've just been ranting about how bad everyone is, but don't mistake me. I am very much a part of this community, and I in no way am trying to place myself above any of this. I was in the trenches every step of the way fighting for "my side" in these battles while doing fairly little else for the community, and for that I certainly share guilt, probably more than most of you reading this. I'm saying everything here not to try to act superior to anyone; I'm saying that WE messed up, and WE need to do better this time.

Now is the time to talk about this too; smash 4 is close, but it's still enough of an unknown that we can talk about it in the abstract with no bias at all based on the particulars of what is going on with it. This is best as, to be honest, none of those particulars matter. When smash 4 comes out, it will be our main game. We will have a massive influx of new players, and it will be for a time very easy to draw many more if we devote our efforts to that purpose. This is an overwhelmingly massive opportunity for our community, and given that it takes an average of half a decade for us to get new smash games, we cannot afford to squander it. Before anything else, we need to agree that we're all going to do one simple, basic thing:

We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it. The inevitable handful of trolls who cannot do that will be treated as such and rejected by the rest of us. From day one, we need a true unity ruleset used at every tournament coast to coast in North America as well as in Europe and Australia, and we need it to be truly representative of our collective will with no gaming of the process by anyone to accomplish an agenda. Once decisions are made, we need to stick to them. If we decide we're going to ban something or for that matter not ban something, we are not going to re-litigate it over years while pressuring any TO we can find. We're not going to repeat the ever shrinking stage list until we're playing on a single digit number of stages, but we're also not going to try to force people to play on everything under the sun out of our own personal principles. I would be lying if I said I didn't have tons of ideas about the best ways to go about things. I've thought nearly endlessly about the particulars of how we could do better, but in the end, I see the same fundamental roadblock that we must overcome first. We need to work together, every one of us, as a united smash community. If we can just agree on that one thing, we will have accomplished the first, biggest, and most important step to making smash 4 a wildly larger success as a competitive community game than Brawl ever was. So please, are you guys with me on this? Smash 4 can be the biggest competitive game of this generation, but we all need to be on board for it to happen.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
Same idea as my thread from yesterday, but much better wording.
:slow clap and respectful nod:
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Las Vegas
I'm gonna wait until I have the game in my hands to decide if I could or should try to play it competitively.
 

Norm

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
1,103
Location
Newfoundland, Canada
NNID
Sheldon86
I was never one to get into the whole banning items characters or implementing only certain stages when I played while I obviously had preference I prefer to play with no items because items can turn a match around very quickly so if I was playing against someone equally competitive usually there would be no items. That being said if someone wanted to play with items I wouldn't say no you can't do that I would play it and still have fun I would just play less competitively. And that applied to both Melee and Brawl but, I was never truly that competitive so I never incorporated the wave dashing and etc.. when I played. In the end I loved Melee and then I loved Brawl and of the two I like Brawl more but that's just personal preference Melee was still a brilliant game and if someone wanted to have a match in Melee I wouldn't say no I still have my copy of melee and I'll still keep my copy of brawl because both games were great and I'll never get rid of them.
 

Vkrm

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
1,194
Location
Las Vegas
What's up with smashers being so self conscious? It seems to me that we are a bit too eager to believe what other gamers say about us. In my experience, we're probably one of the more classy and accepting groups of all the FGC.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
What's up with smashers being so self conscious? It seems to me that we are a bit too eager to believe what other gamers say about us. In my experience, we're probably one of the more classy and accepting groups of all the FGC.
Yeah, we've always had a bit of a community wide self-confidence problem; I definitely agree. I think a lot of us feel the need to prove that smash is a "real fighter" and not just a "party game", but we should just be saying "smash is great, and we play smash" which is really enough.

I also agree that our community has a lot of awesome people and a lot of good things going on in the culture. At least local to me (Midwest), if you showed up to an event to play, you were accepted, and that's all there was to it. We honestly didn't have the strongest players compared to some other regions, but we'd use what we did have to try to help all of our members improve together. It was a pretty open and accepting environment which is why the broader community stuff that basically came down to in-fighting and self-inflicted wounds was so terrible (the melee vs brawl nonsense did bleed into in-person sometimes, but that mostly just goes to show just how bad that particular poison was). If we could translate that small scale goodwill to the large scale operation of the community, we'd be in great shape no question.
 

Dark Phazon

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
5,910
Location
London, England
Yh but theres no denying that is Sm4sh ends up sucking
Hard...its gonna be a hard pill to swallow...even more than brawl was i say...but i guess what your tryna get at is to be civil this time about it...

Sorry to say but the reality is PeePz are not gonna play or support a game they despise and feel cheated about...there most likely to vent about it....

I hated brawl with a passion and i still do pretty much i forgive Sakurao for ****ing it up though...and for me i give him another chance to redeem himself with Sm4sh.

I vent it sometimes but not even half as much as most people do/did and i dont start arguments.

''We must all be on the same page first in order to work together...''

Thats a pretty difficult thing with Smash because it evolves/changes alot all the time from each instalment plus although i would say its s big game as in popular it doesnt role around as much as Halo/CoD/Gears of War to have a fanbase that big.

And no fanbase is on one page anyway...they are all divided..but they dont show as much because there base is so BiG!

Were as us...you know..not so much...well thats my take on it anyway.

Boyyy...what can i say..if the games better than Brawl then im happy. i wont sell it... But how much i play it amd how long for will depend on if i like it...

I could live with it if Mario Kart U is good and they release a Metroid U.
 

Guybrush20X6

Creator of Lego Theory
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
15,882
NNID
Guybrush20X6
3DS FC
4253-3477-4804
Switch FC
SW-2140-7758-3904
If the game has more switches to tone down the randomness that means both factions can get what they want.
 

Dark Phazon

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
5,910
Location
London, England
If the game has more switches to tone down the randomness that means both factions can get what they want.
Yh but if those switches will be options in online mode is another switch to think about...i really hope at E3 we will get a decent ammount of info on the game....
 

Guybrush20X6

Creator of Lego Theory
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
15,882
NNID
Guybrush20X6
3DS FC
4253-3477-4804
Switch FC
SW-2140-7758-3904
That's another thing, online matches need all the customization options available.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 15, 2007
Messages
6,746
Location
STANKONIA CA
Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.

such a weird and biased way of looking at it
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
570
I think we fail to realize this potential because of what is at core one single issue, a truly crippling one that is entirely self inflicted:
Entirely self inflicted? So the already mixed culture of Smash fans, expected conflicts between incoming and existing players, gameplay, and lack of developer support/transparency have nothing to do with it? There's always potential, but it's way too early to call.

We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it. The inevitable handful of trolls who cannot do that will be treated as such and rejected by the rest of us.
Promoting groupthink, as you have here, is not a way to secure potential. In fact, the sooner the Smash 4 community learns the game is not above criticism or entitled to have all Smash players' adopt it, the sooner it can move onto the issues that actually matter.

For the love of the series, please stop pushing for unanimous acceptance of a tittle we know next to nothing about. It reeks of hubris and will do little more than set the new community back a few years in maturity until it eventually humbles itself out.
 

nessokman

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
1,641
This is where we could learn from earthbound fans.they are very unified. They have debated over what is the best of the 3 mother games, and believe a couple different theories, but in the end they work together.

The mother fans made a petition for a mother related cause that got around 30,000 signatures. They work together to build the community
 

StarshipGroove

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
488
You sound like a fanboy

The community is not divided anymore... it simply chose Melee... the EVO poll proves this
 

El Duderino

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
570
This is where we could learn from earthbound fans.they are very unified. They have debated over what is the best of the 3 mother games, and believe a couple different theories, but in the end they work together.


...just saiyan, this was a team effort worth noting.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
Very soon, we're going to know a lot more about smash 4 than we already do, and it's quite possible that the game itself is getting pretty near. I haven't really been active in the smash community in a few years, but I've spent a whole lot of time thinking about how things went with Brawl. To be brutally honest, we as a community have really failed to realize the potential the series has. As far as I can tell, attendance on everything is down from where it was when I was active, and compared to truly successful competitive games like League of Legends, we never were anything in the first place. I firmly believe that none of this is smash itself's fault; the smash games are brilliant games, and they have an incredible potential for both widespread appeal and deep competition. I think we fail to realize this potential because of what is at core one single issue, a truly crippling one that is entirely self inflicted:

We don't work together.

For serious, just look at all the major issues that came up during the years of Brawl's lifespan as our main game:

-Melee vs Brawl. This stupid argument carried on for years, and it was an absolute toxin on the entire community. I could go on for hours about how terrible this argument was, but it can be summed up simply. Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.

-Meta Knight. Honestly after about a year we should have realized that we were really never going to ban him, but for basically the game's entire lifespan we fought it, constantly re-arguing about how we were going to ban him but then never doing it. Eventually we did... and then we settled on undoing that. Winner? No one. Loser? All of us.

-Stages. There were basically two competing and polar opposite visions of what the stage list for the game should be. We started with a very "liberal" stage list, but there was always a war over it and a dynamic that guaranteed the eventual victory of the "conservatives". Stages that were banned were almost never unbanned, and all they had to do was get something banned in one region and rely on time until that ban would spread. Players in a region with any given stage banned would have no experience on it and would inflate the ranks for banning it, and momentum would inevitably build. After one set of "controversial" stages was finally mostly banned, new stages could be thrown into our never ending battle. Eventually we were down to single digit remaining stages, and nowhere on this road did the regions agree on a stage list.

These large problems and several other small ones had the common theme that we as a community dedicated an overwhelming amount of effort to fighting each other, and for it we had to show a lot of hurt feelings and a game that was literally not the same game between two different events. The backroom in theory was supposed to resolve this by limiting discussion to a handful of experts, but as someone who was involved, I can say in practice it didn't work to that effect. What we the broader community spent a lot less effort on was promoting the game and growing the community. We'd even go so far as to carry our petty arguments with each other outside of our community. When you go on SRK, someone from outside of the community posts that smash sucks, and the response from us they get is "well, Brawl sucks, but Melee is different!", what does that tell them and anyone else reading that exchange other than that we're just a joke? It certainly does nothing to encourage anyone to play any smash game, Melee or Brawl.

So far it seems like I've just been ranting about how bad everyone is, but don't mistake me. I am very much a part of this community, and I in no way am trying to place myself above any of this. I was in the trenches every step of the way fighting for "my side" in these battles while doing fairly little else for the community, and for that I certainly share guilt, probably more than most of you reading this. I'm saying everything here not to try to act superior to anyone; I'm saying that WE messed up, and WE need to do better this time.

Now is the time to talk about this too; smash 4 is close, but it's still enough of an unknown that we can talk about it in the abstract with no bias at all based on the particulars of what is going on with it. This is best as, to be honest, none of those particulars matter. When smash 4 comes out, it will be our main game. We will have a massive influx of new players, and it will be for a time very easy to draw many more if we devote our efforts to that purpose. This is an overwhelmingly massive opportunity for our community, and given that it takes an average of half a decade for us to get new smash games, we cannot afford to squander it. Before anything else, we need to agree that we're all going to do one simple, basic thing:

We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it. The inevitable handful of trolls who cannot do that will be treated as such and rejected by the rest of us. From day one, we need a true unity ruleset used at every tournament coast to coast in North America as well as in Europe and Australia, and we need it to be truly representative of our collective will with no gaming of the process by anyone to accomplish an agenda. Once decisions are made, we need to stick to them. If we decide we're going to ban something or for that matter not ban something, we are not going to re-litigate it over years while pressuring any TO we can find. We're not going to repeat the ever shrinking stage list until we're playing on a single digit number of stages, but we're also not going to try to force people to play on everything under the sun out of our own personal principles. I would be lying if I said I didn't have tons of ideas about the best ways to go about things. I've thought nearly endlessly about the particulars of how we could do better, but in the end, I see the same fundamental roadblock that we must overcome first. We need to work together, every one of us, as a united smash community. If we can just agree on that one thing, we will have accomplished the first, biggest, and most important step to making smash 4 a wildly larger success as a competitive community game than Brawl ever was. So please, are you guys with me on this? Smash 4 can be the biggest competitive game of this generation, but we all need to be on board for it to happen.

Good post man, I agree with it all but I think we need realistic goals you know, one step at a time?

IMO IMO IMO

The 'serious' fighting gamer crowd who tend to other fighting games are as good as lost, their bias against smash is complete and always will be. Our best chance to overtake them is simply overwhelm them with numbers. since we have such a huge amount of casual players, I think by far the most important thing is to stop deterring casual players from going competitive. People here might not agree with me, but I think its BULL**** that tourneys charge significant fees for entry and pots. Whether anyone here likes it or not, Smash has a ridiculously large install base which dwarfs other fighting games, however the majority of them are young. And you know what young people dont like? Having to pay $10-$20 to get their ass kicked by people with years of experience with no reasonable prospect of EVER making their money back when the gap is too large. For the older crowd which tend to other fighting games, this isnt an issue since they usually have jobs etc. However on top of all this though, I think there is a serious attitude problem towards casual players and you all know it starts with melee vs brawl. In that regard I agree with you 100% AA, that fighting was pure cancer.

Let me explain. My city hosts a convention every year. In 2009, smash tourneys were getting around 25 entrants. That year, I entered a FOUR HUNDRED AND TEN (410!) entrant free brawl tournament at this convention. I was like 'WHERE THE HELL HAVE ALL THESE PEOPLE BEEN?'. It took me a while to realise that a few of them legitimately hadnt heard of the tournament scene and ended up going. Most of them 'hated' tournament players and had no intention of ever going but a significant amount, lets call them the 'potentials', were very intimated by us tournament players and didnt want to go because they didnt want to lose money and be taunted. So what you might say? Well how about I was one of those people, I was afraid of tournament players, I hated no items and all that junk.

I've seen and been on the receiving end the sort of bull**** that the 'pros' and even the not-so-pros like to say and do to new players. As much as I hate to admit it, I myself am guilty of it. I was so obsessed with winning I came across as unapproachable. Once I realised what was happening, I immediately changed my ways and I am the complete opposite. My point is, I was very intimidated by the pros and they made me feel like ****. But I loved smash way too much to give in to them, and I went on to win tournaments and travel cross-country and even across the world to play in them. However I knew many people who it was too much for and they quit. People who were just as dedicated as me. Who knows what would have happened if they had stayed? What would have happened if me and the other top players werent such ***** to people without even realising? Multiply that by every casual and pro in our scene, it may well have doubled.

And of course a lot of it has to do with entry fees. People can take losing, its not THAT bad. But to lose, and then lose anywhere from 10-50% of the cost of the ENTIRE GAME every tournament? Talk about salt in the wound. AND AGAIN you must remember majority of smash players are kids who just dont have that sort of money and you will all know that kids are very capable of being the best. Imagine if someone of the caliber like AD|-|D couldnt go to tournaments because he couldnt afford to lose $10-20 early on in the early stages? Can you imagine how many potential great players out there dont go because of the way pros act and the fear of losing money? They cant see 6 months - 1 year in the future and imagine winning it all back. I never could, so how could they?

I don't buy this argument that having a pot increases the intensity and competitiveness of the game because money is on the line. Having an entry fee of say, $20 for a 40-entrant tournament is huge and would generate a massive pot. But what does this affect? Losers and grand finals. Thats pretty much it. So what about the rest of the players, lets say the other 37. They know they arent going to see a cent of that when skill divides are enormous. Are they going to play their brains out with a $20 entry fee which they wont win? No, they wont. You know what a $20 entry fee does, it pisses the other 37 people off and probably discourage 10-20 more from even going in the first place. So theres an exaggeration for you. So lets bring it down to $10. Wow the exact same argument applies, except people will be less upset about losing and potentially more will go. Why not bring it down to 5? Who gets hurt in this situation? Oh thats right, the people who WIN THEIR MONEY BACK ANYWAY.

This is but one example. Multiply that scenario by 12-24 times in a single year, and youll see why people quit smash tournaments. The 'potentials' were scared away in the first place and those that did go, retreated away from it because of losing money and dealing with the pros who demolish them easily. If you are one of these 'pros' who wont go to tournaments unless you make a lot of money (excusing those that want to travel interstate and actually afford to go) then you can go and get stuffed. Your ego ruins smash' chance of being a big competitive game because whether you like it or not, smash has a lot of kids playing it and you can either cater to the majority, or you can have some tiny, self destructive competitive scene which is laughably small, despite sales 10x higher than other fighting games. I could argue for days why I think having pots and that sort of stuff is useless, but this isnt the time or place, I've made my opinion clear enough.

----

So a very long story short, I believe the best way for smash 4 to establish itself as the major competitive fighting game in the world is to abuse its biggest advantage, the masses of kids playing. Kids who have the potential to be the best in a few years while simultaneously increasing the competitive scene. We completely outnumber SF, marvel and tekken combined. However the very big majority of smash players dont take part in the competitive scene. We need to turn that around and increase the proportion of smash players who become competitive. We must begin to cater to the majority because catering to the minority will leave us exactly where we are today, a small, very dedicated community without any real power in the realms of e-sports because of our numbers. And this all starts by undoing the damage caused by melee vs brawl and ensuring that NEVER happens again, and by making tournaments more accessible to the other 90% of players who we seem to have a habit of extorting.

Oh and also on that note, **** Leage of Legends I hate that game. But you know what it did right, and why its so MASSIVE today? Because of the reasons I listed. League is incredibly accessible and, this is very very big, *ITS FREE*. League abused this to generate an incredibly large install base. Meanwhile DotA and HoN festered in their elitist little communities, trash talking all day long. LoL is far more simple and accessible and eventually its install base became so ridiculously big, DotA and HoN's merits as a competitive game were worthless when everyone and their dog played LoL. With its legions of fans, LoL stepped it up and began making competitions (which were free!) and a significant proportion of its players followed. The game then separated again into the pay-for competitive scene which is what you all know today while the free competitive scene sources all these players and keeps the pros under pressure to hold their spots. Now you have a game with an insanely large player base while also having an insanely large competitive base. Why? BECAUSE IT WAS FREE. It all started from there. Im not saying smash tournaments should be free, but the smaller the entry fee, the bigger the competitive scene. Its just that simple. Once that is done, then you can bring significant prize money into the equation at major tournaments all while playing the exact same game.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it.

I want everyone to at least accept smash 4 too, and I hope the community has the sense to do this as we learn more about the game. Another thing to remember is that each smash game is a successor, not a sequel, so don't judge them based on the previous installments.
 

GhettoSheep

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
275
Location
Socal/Seattle
I haven't played smash or been on this forum for 3 years but had to visit again today.

To be perfectly honest, Brawl was a crappy game competitively. When we got to demo it before release there was L-cancelling and wavedashing and no auto-ledge grabbing. People thought it would be a successor to melee. I even bought a wii just to play it on release. When competitive elements were missing, the community went ape ****, with good reason. They thought they were cheated out of a good game. Most smashers that played melee had stopped playing brawl within a couple week or so. I actually tried to keep playing brawl for a few months, but just couldn't stick with it.

You can't just ask people to blindly support a game because its released under the Smash name. The only reason I played 64 and melee was because it was competitive and that made it really fun. It was actually a way of life for many smashers, going to eachother's house after school every day and weekend to play. I have fond memories of going to smashfests in socal while in school, then going back to Seattle for break and going to smashfests there every friday (and random days in between) where we would cram like 12-15 people in a tiny apartment with 4-5 TVs and play all night, with interruptions only for hawaiian bbq.

People that came onto the scene when brawl came out always say "don't judge it based on melee, its a new game." That's right, it's a new game, and maybe its a good game in the abstract sense. But if I'm going to my friend's house to play smash we are still going to ask ourselves which one we should play, and the answer is clearly melee. I'm not going to play brawl just because its the new game, and the same can be said for many if not the vast majority of people that played melee. I actually feel sad when I play brawl, its such a letdown when you compare it to the depth melee had. The only time I play it is at parties where nobody there plays smash seriously (which is why they have brawl).

As for the newcomers that came for Brawl, I have no doubt you'll support sm4sh. I sincerely doubt your love and attachment for brawl (no offense) when you compare it to those that played smash 64/melee since day 1, and every day since then. Those people are going to play melee until a better smash comes along, which honestly could be never. But you on the other-hand the brawl newcomers (I guess its not really new anymore) will probably support whatever Nintendo puts out there because you're simply not as invested in it.

I know this sounds biased, and it totally is, but its true, I'm going to compare it to melee. It can be different, but it still needs to be fun (and hopefully have good online play) before I'm going to pick it up. And I'm not going to preemptively buy the console before it comes out this time. Honestly if its fun (really fun) and has good online support I'll probably buy it, and play it a lot. But being fun for me, and a lot of people I know, will probably require competitive elements such as L-cancelling, wave-dashing or something else to add depth to the game.

I think a comparison can be made to SCII and Broodwar. A lot of people think broodwar is the "better game." But SCII is still a ton of fun and a good game in itself while also being new so everyone plays it. If they can do that with Sm4sh, I'll buy it.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
It won't work. BEFORE THE TRAILER WAS OVER, people on my facebook were talking about how smash 4 was going to suck because it didn't look like Melee. Just toss 'em to the curb and forget about 'em.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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There's nothing wrong with rejecting a game with massive flaws, especially if Smash is never going to spin the competitive gears of gaming, which I don't think it will. If you want to be mainstream, you adopt the sequel without question. If you play for love, you give the sequel its chance, then pick what you like better. I'm pretty convinced that I'll have little reason to play Melee anymore with a few more PM tweaks.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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My big point to the "Melee for life" people seems to have been somewhat lost, but it's I think a reasonable request. If you want to play Melee until the day you die, that's your choice. Just don't attack smash 4. Right now we're still in the process of trying to figure out what smash 4 is (I think it looks good so far personally!), and that's mostly guesswork at this point. I'm already seeing some people in their analysis using "similarity to Melee" as synonym for "good" and "similarity to Brawl" as a synonym for "bad" which is troubling, but I'm really hoping that will just pass (smash 4 is its own game, and it doesn't matter if it's similar to either game).

My request for behavior is just, if it becomes clear to you that you aren't going to be doing the smash 4 thing, just leave the game alone. I really would like as many people as possible to support it and help us grow the community, but if that's not going to be you, at the very least just leave the game alone. The main poison of Melee vs Brawl was never people playing Melee; it was trolls constantly going on Brawl boards, Brawl tournament topics, and regional zone topics dominated by Brawl players and insisting non-stop that Brawl was bad and that they were bad for playing Brawl. That's toxic behavior, and we need to be much more pro-active this time around in discouraging it as a community (making it clear to those people that this kind of activity is not welcome). What we did before was allow it to devolve into a full-scale civil war when the only "civil" that should have ever been involved is "be civil about games you don't personally enjoy and respect others". The fact that their complaints were usually nonsense didn't really help (yeah, a successful tournament game is "not competitive"...), but the bigger issue was that these complaints were routinely launched in totally improper times and places and were used to drive a wedge through the entire community and left everyone who was just enthused to play Brawl feeling embattled and weary because they couldn't go on the forum for the biggest competitive community for smash and post about their positive experiences playing the newest smash game without being drowned in hate. I don't even think most people who played Melee were bad; I think it all started with trolls who won beyond their wildest dreams as every one of us fed the trolls and decended into in-fighting when the state of affairs of people playing what they want doesn't have to involve any hate whatsoever.

Honestly the fact that mentioning the conflict has generated a lot of responses that are teetering between aggressive toward me (since I'm a "Brawl guy") and defensive of Melee says a lot. Melee is not under attack. I didn't even say anything about Brawl, but now I will. Brawl is a wonderufl game. I love Brawl. Brawl was deep and competitive as proven by years of successful tournaments. If any of those statements I just made about Brawl "offends" you, you need to step back, look in the mirror, and really ask yourself why. Someone on the internet having a different opinion and a different taste in games to you should not bother you. The fact that not everyone shared my love of Brawl didn't bother me; being under constant attack on the Brawl sections of the forum for the "sin" of supporting the game the forum was dedicated to and some really stupid drama outside of the forums sure did upset me. I'm not even asking people to get over the never-ending hate for Brawl. I just want for people to chill when it comes to the new game and do what any intelligent human beings would do when confronted with a video game they don't want to play. Don't play it and leave the people who do want to play it in peace, and redirect all your efforts that would go toward spewing hate toward being positive about what you do love. By doing that, you can make sure that in some capacity at least your efforts contribute to building the greater smash community whereas when your efforts are primarily negative you just hurt it, and as a community we're never going to go anywhere if we continue to work against each other.
 

Accelerator

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What a garbage post.
-Melee vs Brawl. This stupid argument carried on for years, and it was an absolute toxin on the entire community. I could go on for hours about how terrible this argument was, but it can be summed up simply. Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.
There is some serious bias right here. Why would it inevitably be the new game of the community? People play what they want to play, not what is new. We are divided because the games are radically different. There was no vocal minority that caused what we have today.

People don't put in tons of hours of practice into a game they don't like. I should have stopped reading right here, really. What a ridiculous way to look at things.
Now is the time to talk about this too; smash 4 is close, but it's still enough of an unknown that we can talk about it in the abstract with no bias at all based on the particulars of what is going on with it. This is best as, to be honest, none of those particulars matter. When smash 4 comes out, it will be our main game. We will have a massive influx of new players, and it will be for a time very easy to draw many more if we devote our efforts to that purpose. This is an overwhelmingly massive opportunity for our community, and given that it takes an average of half a decade for us to get new smash games, we cannot afford to squander it. Before anything else, we need to agree that we're all going to do one simple, basic thing:

We must all work together. We will all support smash 4 or at the very least refrain from attacking it. The inevitable handful of trolls who cannot do that will be treated as such and rejected by the rest of us. From day one, we need a true unity ruleset used at every tournament coast to coast in North America as well as in Europe and Australia, and we need it to be truly representative of our collective will with no gaming of the process by anyone to accomplish an agenda. Once decisions are made, we need to stick to them. If we decide we're going to ban something or for that matter not ban something, we are not going to re-litigate it over years while pressuring any TO we can find. We're not going to repeat the ever shrinking stage list until we're playing on a single digit number of stages, but we're also not going to try to force people to play on everything under the sun out of our own personal principles. I would be lying if I said I didn't have tons of ideas about the best ways to go about things. I've thought nearly endlessly about the particulars of how we could do better, but in the end, I see the same fundamental roadblock that we must overcome first. We need to work together, every one of us, as a united smash community. If we can just agree on that one thing, we will have accomplished the first, biggest, and most important step to making smash 4 a wildly larger success as a competitive community game than Brawl ever was. So please, are you guys with me on this? Smash 4 can be the biggest competitive game of this generation, but we all need to be on board for it to happen.
Why would it be our new game, because it's new? What does that mean? I don't know if you've noticed but smash is made with the idea in mind to cater towards casual players, not competitive play. There may be a new developer this time, but I am 100% positive that it will not deviate from this thought process; it's a party game.

Nintendo literally attacked competitive play in Brawl, Sakurai does not like how we play smash. Why do you think Smash 4 will be different? We, the smash community, make it competitive. We are the reason that smash games like n64 and melee are still relevant today. What you're proposing is some garbage group think of following the new game without having even played it yet.

If Smash 4 is a good game and has competitive elements then we will play it. If it's not, then people probably won't, simple as that.
 
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BSP

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People that came onto the scene when brawl came out always say "don't judge it based on melee, its a new game." That's right, it's a new game, and maybe its a good game in the abstract sense.
I think you have this backwards. Brawl is a great game in the simple sense (ie casual sense). Content to keep the single player satisfied, content for multiplayer, accessibility, etc. It's got nearly everything. The competitive side is the abstract side when you look at what Nintendo aims for with the SSB series. In that sense, it's still fine as well.

But you on the other-hand the brawl newcomers (I guess its not really new anymore) will probably support whatever Nintendo puts out there because you're simply not as invested in it.
If the game is good and I enjoy playing it, I'll support it. What's wrong with supporting it if it's fun to play? If it's bad for whatever reason, I wont. Simple as that. I won't, as AA is asking people who don't/won't like SSB4 not to do, attack/troll/flame the game and/or the people who play it just because it's not what I've decided to play, or because I hate the game since it's not what I'd rather play. That is what's unnecessary and only hurts the community. In other words, we shouldn't let this happen again:


The main poison of Melee vs Brawl was never people playing Melee; it was trolls constantly going on Brawl boards, Brawl tournament topics, and regional zone topics dominated by Brawl players and insisting non-stop that Brawl was bad and that they were bad for playing Brawl. That's toxic behavior, and we need to be much more pro-active this time around in discouraging it as a community (making it clear to those people that this kind of activity is not welcome).

But being fun for me, and a lot of people I know, will probably require competitive elements such as L-cancelling, wave-dashing or something else to add depth to the game.

T.T
 

TheBuzzSaw

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When I play Melee, I feel like I am operating a well-oiled machine. My only limit is my own ability to execute.

When I play Brawl, I feel like I am covered in glue. When I grab the ledge, I cannot instantly ledge-hop off of it into an attack. There is a mandatory delay. That and many other stupid mechanics are what soured the experience.

We absolutely should not skip straight to loving and adoring Smash 4 just because it is "new" or "HD" or whatever. I will like Smash 4 according to its merits as a competitive fighter.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Trolling people for playing a game you don't like hardly fits the "play what you like" model and I'm disappointed in anyone who would do that. However, there is nothing wrong with the objective analysis of a game's merits and promoting the game of your choice (again, so long as the community is not concerned with any kind of mainstream acknowledgment or satisfaction).

I personally think that a lot of the hate is largely second-hand hate passed on from what was essentially a direct attack from Sakurai on competitive players. Yes, it's an immature response, but it is pretty hard to accept a game which the designer purposely decided to make competitively inferior to try to put a halt to the game of Smash that we loved (that no one ever complained about, by the way). I would think that if Sakurai spent the next 6 months telling reporters how all of the elements that made Brawl competitive in tournaments were a terrible idea and he plans to undo them as much as possible, then they'd have a hard time warming up to the game themselves.

Here's to hoping that we don't hear either message echoed from him throughout his messages leading up to the release.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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Personally, I'm kind of glad the new game is more like Brawl than Melee. I enjoyed both games, but the satisfaction of knowing that the people that spent all of their time hating on Brawl solely because it wasn't a Melee clone will never get their sequel. Brawl players get exactly what Melee players would have wanted AND we get megaman.

It's delicious.
 

grizby2

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just watch, both brawl and melee communities will hate smash 4 :troll:


seriously? the game isn't done yet, and I'll STILL play it. you wanna know why? because that's about the ONLY WAY I'm going to know if I like the game. Everyone bashing smash 4 already might as well cook beef wellington without know how to properly make it. that's exactly how they're acting, I mean COME..ON. don't you want the newest installment one of your favorite franchises to succeed? why on earth do you want it to fail? heck for all we know, maybe brawl fans will think its better than brawl and melee fans will think its better than melee and the dumbest argument on earth would end.
 

Mr.C

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3,512
We don't need to change, Nintendo needs to change.

To call someone a "troll" for simply stating the obvious is naive. If SSB4 is a deep, fun, competitive game it will be played for the next decade or so. If it's not, it will die off like Brawl. It's not the communities fault they decided to release a game that goes backwards on the evolution tree. It's not the communities fault Nintendo still doesn't have any online capabilities and it's almost 2014.
 

Strong Badam

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The only part of this post that interested me was the Brawl vs. Melee nonsense. Tim put it well with this quote:
There's nothing wrong with rejecting a game with massive flaws, especially if Smash is never going to spin the competitive gears of gaming, which I don't think it will. If you want to be mainstream, you adopt the sequel without question. If you play for love, you give the sequel its chance, then pick what you like better. I'm pretty convinced that I'll have little reason to play Melee anymore with a few more PM tweaks.
I didn't decide to not play Brawl because it was different from Melee. No, to say it was "different" implies that it made big changes the overall effect of which was unclear. Brawl was anything but. It took three steps forward and twenty steps backward. I've written several posts about why this is, and the only responses I ever seem to get from Brawlers are... contentless. Rather than go "Hey, you know what? I like X mechanic which you've pointed out as a negative contribution to the game competitively and think it offers valuable depth and the game is better for it, and here's why" literally the only thing I ever read is "The game's just different" "That's just your opinion" "Stop bashing my game, I'm so insecure about its merits that I can't even defend it properly" all the while complaining about how MK is so broken and deriding players like Mew2King for being good at a game they so seek to defend. It doesn't help that 99% of the people saying such things are going to drop Brawl as soon as Smash 4 is released and completely forget about its predecessor. It's quite pathetic.

On the topic at hand, being "similar to Melee" isn't a prerequisite to being a good competitive fighter (I enjoy SSFIV:AE quite a bit, for example). Melee certainly isn't perfect, and I'd love to see a Smash game be better than Melee some day. In fact, my wish list for Smash 4 includes major mechanic adjustments that would change how the game is played fundamentally (compared to Melee) including the removal of Dash Dancing and L-canceling (with an across-the-board reduction in aerial landlag in its place). A sequel doesn't necessarily need to be "The previous game with more stuff," it can also be an opportunity to change directions, and innovate. Unfortunately for us, Brawl tried to do that, and did it very, very poorly. There really wouldn't have been a divide in the community if this wasn't the case. There was really no one who wanted Brawl to be great with more passion, who swallowed that pill with more difficulty than us. We do not say these things with some sort of sadistic pleasure and superiority, but with deep sorrow at what might have been, but didn't, and never will.

I may or may not leave Smash 4 alone. It kind of depends. I don't particularly enjoy the sentiment that ignorance is somehow desired. I don't need to state that Brawl is a bad competitive game to somehow offend its defenders. All I need to do is write facts about its game mechanics. They get upset very quickly, and for some reason I think it has more to do with insecurity than anything else...
 

Mr.C

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The only part of this post that interested me was the Brawl vs. Melee nonsense. Tim put it well with this quote:

I didn't decide to not play Brawl because it was different from Melee. No, to say it was "different" implies that it made big changes the overall effect of which was unclear. Brawl was anything but. It took three steps forward and twenty steps backward. I've written several posts about why this is, and the only responses I ever seem to get from Brawlers are... contentless. Rather than go "Hey, you know what? I like X mechanic which you've pointed out as a negative contribution to the game competitively and think it offers valuable depth and the game is better for it, and here's why" literally the only thing I ever read is "The game's just different" "That's just your opinion" "Stop bashing my game, I'm so insecure about its merits that I can't even defend it properly" all the while complaining about how MK is so broken and deriding players like Mew2King for being good at a game they so seek to defend. It doesn't help that 99% of the people saying such things are going to drop Brawl as soon as Smash 4 is released and completely forget about its predecessor. It's quite pathetic.

On the topic at hand, being "similar to Melee" isn't a prerequisite to being a good competitive fighter (I enjoy SSFIV:AE quite a bit, for example). Melee certainly isn't perfect, and I'd love to see a Smash game be better than Melee some day. In fact, my wish list for Smash 4 includes major mechanic adjustments that would change how the game is played fundamentally (compared to Melee) including the removal of Dash Dancing and L-canceling (with an across-the-board reduction in aerial landlag in its place). A sequel doesn't necessarily need to be "The previous game with more stuff," it can also be an opportunity to change directions, and innovate. Unfortunately for us, Brawl tried to do that, and did it very, very poorly. There really wouldn't have been a divide in the community if this wasn't the case. There was really no one who wanted Brawl to be great with more passion, who swallowed that pill with more difficulty than us. We do not say these things with some sort of sadistic pleasure and superiority, but with deep sorrow at what might have been, but didn't, and never will.

I may or may not leave Smash 4 alone. It kind of depends. I don't particularly enjoy the sentiment that ignorance is somehow desired. I don't need to state that Brawl is a bad competitive game to somehow offend its defenders. All I need to do is write facts about its game mechanics. They get upset very quickly, and for some reason I think it has more to do with insecurity than anything else...
I don't understand people who say things like "You just want Melee 2.0!" No, I want a deep, skill intensive, competitive fighting game. It just so happens that Melee was exactly that.

From the game play videos spoiled so far, SSB4 game physics are completely identical to Brawl. Floatiness, no L-canceling, no shielding while in the initial dash animation, auto edge-grab, and the same clunky walking, running, dashing, jumping mechanics. The game isn't looking very promising for competitive enthusiasts.
 

Strong Badam

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L-Canceling is a terrible mechanic.

I also have no idea how you determined that there's no shielding while in the initial dash animation from gameplay videos. You must be really good at analyzing them.
Nor do I understand why you quoted me and then said nothing relevant to my post.
 

Mr.C

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L-Canceling is a terrible mechanic.

I also have no idea how you determined that there's no shielding while in the initial dash animation from gameplay videos. You must be really good at analyzing them.
Nor do I understand why you quoted me and then said nothing relevant to my post.
Having aerial lag thus making 90% of the characters completely unusable is a terrible mechanic. They could remedy this by removing lag altogether. Although, L-Canceling added a game play feature that took skill and practice to use effectively, a notion that is generally positive for skill-intensive competitive fighting games.

Analyzing game play footage. The Mario vs Mega Man video demonstrates pretty much everything. The other videos that feature close game play are most likely played by computers so I can't gauge them properly.

I could have simply used "@strongbad" but clicking "reply" and typing to someone I want to address is just as efficient. Pretty easy to understand.
 

Strong Badam

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Both L-Canceling and no aerial lag reduction are poor design choices. You really don't understand what you're talking about if you think L-Canceling makes Melee's skillset more diverse or provides more depth in comparison to the alternative of "automated L-Canceling" since you seem to not understand what "aerial lag reduction" means.

How exactly did you determine that players can't shield during their initial dash? Like, did you go "Oh hey, he tried to shield there, but it didn't happen"? Enlighten me.
 

Mr.C

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Both L-Canceling and no aerial lag reduction are poor design choices. You really don't understand what you're talking about if you think L-Canceling makes Melee's skillset more diverse or provides more depth in comparison to the alternative of "automated L-Canceling" since you seem to not understand what "aerial lag reduction" means.

How exactly did you determine that players can't shield during their initial dash? Like, did you go "Oh hey, he tried to shield there, but it didn't happen"? Enlighten me.
More technical options required to play effectively = more depth, by virtue. If Game A requires two inputs for an action and Game B requires one input for the exact same action, Game A automatically has a deeper and more technical learning curve.

There are several instances where the players dash and shield. However, the shield animation only comes out AFTER the initial dash animation, never during, similar to the way Brawls dash-shield physics work. This could be a coincidence but since everything else in the game seems to be using the Brawl engine I'm just taking a hypothetical leap.
 

Sedda

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^I kind of agree with this, but it has MUCH more to do with the way they do it rather than how many mechanics there are. L-cancelling would make sense if there was an advantage to not doing it in certain situations.

I actually think that if everyone had near perfect tech-skill, people would then be forced to become the most creative of competitors, so we would see wonders in the metagame.

That being said, once again, mechanics like L-cancelling don't really do it for me because there's no trade-off.
 

Mr.Jackpot

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Melee vs Brawl. This stupid argument carried on for years, and it was an absolute toxin on the entire community. I could go on for hours about how terrible this argument was, but it can be summed up simply. Brawl was the new game and was absolutely inevitably going to be the main game of the community. A relatively small but extraordinarily vocal set of people decided to raise as much hell as possible to try to fight this. All the rest of us played into their game and one way or another took sides, and years later, here we are, divided.

Absolute bull****. I was out Smash for almost two years after Brawl came out and if the Melee scene didn't come back I'd be playing a hell of a lot more MvC and Guilty Gear today. As competitive players our job isn't to fanboy over the latest smash game and make it "succeed" no matter what kind of gold or turd it turns out to be, it's to find a game we like and support it. And if a new smash game disappoints me again I'm going to say exactly why it did.

The Revival of Melee wasn't a debate, or splitting of the smash community. It was a bunch of guys getting back together to play the game they loved. Trying to make out anything more is both an overestimate of how much a player is willing to stick to a single brand name and a disregard for the the time and effort community members have spent rebuilding the scene back to the top from almost absolute death. When something else comes out that we love the same way whether it be Project M, Smash 4, or Air Dash Online we'll be ready to move over and when Melee finally loses its shine we'll be ready put it down, just like we always have been.
 
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