M.K
Level 55
It is people like you who are a problem to the metagame. It is decent speculation, and you can keep your "Meta-PwnZ-All" attitude out of this.Is there seriously a debate over this?
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For the last time: MK is no worse than 70-30 against Fox
- Thread starter SCOTU
- Start date
Metaknight doesn't necessarily Pwn all, but Dojo does. :O That aside, your right.
SCOTU
Smash Hero
If you can call this a debate... there's me describing a bunch of facts, and there's fenrir going "OBJECTION! I'm the all knowing fox main, and those are not facts, because I don't like to give evidence to back up my claims".Is there seriously a debate over this?
XDXDjkjk
but in all seriousness, i wouldn't've thought there'd've been a debate over this either, when i saw there was i was like, "for serious guys? this is pissin me off" so i made this thread.
goldemblem
Smash Apprentice
I read the whole thing SCOTU wrote and i agree with every single word, the only thing that counters meta it's meta itself
Dojo
Smash Champion
Lol. You don't know who I am, or what my attitude is about anything. Don't assume you know anything about me because I made a simple post in a unrestricted forum. I go where I please. A crew mate of mine is a fox main so I browse through here from time to time. He's one of the very few who realize that you actually think Fox has a chance against a Metaknight is kind of funny.
More on-topic of this,
Fox has close to nothing on MK.
I'm sorry.
Tornado eats him. Recovery and all.
Fair alone outprioritizes more than 3/4 of his moves.
Tilts make his entire ground game obsolete.
He's not very hard to gimp. Even switching it up doesn't help alot. Not like there's much.
Dair combo's work to an extent but it's not hard to stay spaced from them.
I'm sorry but it's not a hard matchup for MK.
MK really is overpowered.... plain and simple.
It's not a "Meta-Pwnz-All" attitude. It's simple fact.
Show me where one of your top players beats one of the top 5 MK players in a tourney set and I'll change my mind to an extent over this.
MK is so ridiculously good it's not right.
cakecontrol
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 56
NinjaFoxX
Banned via Warnings
/thread
deystroyed this thread the same way your broken main deystroys things
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Wait wait wait. You're a smash debater?
Holy **** how did you get in?
You should know better than to jump someone and assume the person's attitude or argument.
JhMS
Smash Journeyman
QFT.Quoted for the ******* truth.
Very good point here, too.
M@v
Subarashii!
shadowlink, debater just gives you rights to the debate hall. nothing more.
O hai dojo. Glad you could stop by.
I kind of have to second this. I was playing a good MK on campus yesterday, _Umbra_ on here. I was doing fine against all of his other characters, except MK, who wrecked my fox, zelda/sheik, and lucario. The only way I kept up with him? Using MK myself. /end MK debate
O hai dojo. Glad you could stop by.
I kind of have to second this. I was playing a good MK on campus yesterday, _Umbra_ on here. I was doing fine against all of his other characters, except MK, who wrecked my fox, zelda/sheik, and lucario. The only way I kept up with him? Using MK myself. /end MK debate
TKD
Smash Lord
Sheik as good as Teba's and a Futile-level Wario (there's only one of those so far I think but the future is kwel) beat top MKs half the time so those matchups are even. Fox doesn't even need to be that good to win that matchup so you people just aren't.
Snake and Falco are 40/60 vs MK...or at least I think so 'cuz I doubt Sethlon or those top Falcoes would beat like...DSF, and as for Snake players I only lose to Hall and DSF half the time which are in my opinion the best snake players in the WC, but DSF always beats Hall so that's one more point for MK. The matchup may probably be worse for Falco though but I have no proof of that.
So yeah Wario, Sheik and Fox are the best competition I've seen for MK so far, and at top level they're probably even with him. I still think Fox wins 'cuz nair and dthrow ****.
So losing to a player that's better than you doesn't mean it's a bad matchup, matchup odds have to refer to top level, not two random players of random skill.
Snake and Falco are 40/60 vs MK...or at least I think so 'cuz I doubt Sethlon or those top Falcoes would beat like...DSF, and as for Snake players I only lose to Hall and DSF half the time which are in my opinion the best snake players in the WC, but DSF always beats Hall so that's one more point for MK. The matchup may probably be worse for Falco though but I have no proof of that.
So yeah Wario, Sheik and Fox are the best competition I've seen for MK so far, and at top level they're probably even with him. I still think Fox wins 'cuz nair and dthrow ****.
So losing to a player that's better than you doesn't mean it's a bad matchup, matchup odds have to refer to top level, not two random players of random skill.
I bet Azen's Fox could...
....Excuse me, but you're saying that WARIO, SHEIK and FOX has a better matchup than Falco, Snake, or I don't know... LUCARIO?
...My, you're delusional. SK92 nearly beat DSF, didn't he? It was to the point where the match could've gone either way, wasn't it? Which is yanno, how a neutral(ish) matchup should be? Fox has nothing on MK. It's plain and simple. There are tons of other characters who put up better fights than him against MK, as well.
Nobody beats MK, but there's no way in hell that Fox, Wario, and Sheik do better against MK than the rest of the cast.
tkd u play fox too? I did not know this haha. Teba's noob sheik is quite good but he learn most of it from me haha. Sheik does ok vs mk if mk doesn't understand the range of sheik and how she returns. I have to say that the match up is definitely not lop sided. I mean, I can beat a lot of good mk and dsf's mk in friendly's too with sheik/fox. Falcon does ok vs mk too in case any1 was wondering. You just need to play smart and out range mk in everything which isn't that hard if u know how to play falcon right.
ryan's wario is too good. It should never be consider a good wario but isntead an amzing wario haha
TKD
Smash Lord
You're right that no character beats MK, but I think some may come close, like the 3 I mentioned and maybe Kirby. I don't think SK92 will ever "nearly beat" DSF again. He's better now.
EDIT: Yeah I'm planning on a R.O.B.+Fox combination. Fox covers R.O.B.'s bads...I think. I've been MK+IC for too long. It works, but R.O.B.+Fox sounds so special...!
Darn, I should stop frequenting the boards, they make me think MK really should be banned, and he's actually not as bad as the best characters from other fighting games, so it's nonsense to keep complaining.
Storm_Fox
Smash Apprentice
I hate threads like this. odds are just numbers designed as propganda and to scare people i think. I cant wait till the day some one finds something that will break meta Knight
Takumaru
Smash Lord
SCOTU's arguement is nothing more than a look at the raw pro's and con's of MK vs Fox. Think of the 70:30 rating as a rating of much better Metaknight is than fox as a character. Really it's just a comparison of information like hit box range, frame rates, ect. and it all assume perfect reactions and timing from both players. Anything outside of this adds in a human component which is where the variety in a match comes from. So don't take this thread as SCOTU saying fox can never beat MK, he's just saying "hey the numbers say this." If you understand that a perfect MK will **** you 70% of the time and you have a concept of what a perfect MK is, you can easily see the holes (yes they exist) in an imperfect player.
So if we were comparing two buildings SCOTU would be saying "building 1 is 190 ft tall and building 2 is 50 feet tall" while everyone else is saying "building 1 is larger than building 2." I hope that makes sense to you all, my brain is fried from doing chemistry for the past 5 hours.
So if we were comparing two buildings SCOTU would be saying "building 1 is 190 ft tall and building 2 is 50 feet tall" while everyone else is saying "building 1 is larger than building 2." I hope that makes sense to you all, my brain is fried from doing chemistry for the past 5 hours.
SmashBrother2008
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,227
There is. You just have to wait a few years for "Super Smash Bros. Riot". (more like "Super Smash Bros. Balanced", amirite?)
M@v
Subarashii!
not while sakurai's in charge. He tried to balance the game assuming items are always on. We see how that turned out.
TechnoMonster
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 836
SK92 vs. DSF at BIO
SK92 won the first set, then lost in two sets in the grand finals, forcing a total of 15 games, and lost due to Meta having a wider range of high win % stage counterpicks that SK92 wasn't prepared for (Halberd, Luigi's Mansion). On random neutrals SK92 won 2/3, if i remember correctly.
Vegas is the jam
Back to the topic at hand!
M@v
Subarashii!
The problem with Falco vs MK
Falco is just fine. He can blaster spam and chaingrab....until MK planks and ledge camps. Then falco loses. Its that simple.
Falco is just fine. He can blaster spam and chaingrab....until MK planks and ledge camps. Then falco loses. Its that simple.
TKD, you were able to go near even with Futile, yet he has insane matchup experience, and you had none (Against a proven tournament wario) If you played as many Wario's as Futile has played MK's, you'd probably beat him IMO. I think that's a pretty strong sign it's in MK's favor and not even. Wario has a better shot than Falco, this I agree with.
Ty Edrees, I have told people that Wario does not go even with MK and then TKD has come along and said it was even a few times, contradicting what I've been trying to say all along.
Futile is just ridiculous in skill and knows the matchup so well. It's hard to judge it just based on him, its similar to saying Lucario = MK just because Azen. When I play Futile I think he has the advantage on Peach for example, but every single wario i've played out there besides him making me think peach has the advantage for sure, even good ones like Ka, Fiction , Dizzy, etc. I wish i got to play you DMG 
I just came here to make fun of Champ's fox and i end up in a serious discussion, blah.
I just came here to make fun of Champ's fox and i end up in a serious discussion, blah.
I am still kicking myself for not being more aggressive or whatever and not securing a chance to play you. Maybe sometime in February we can play in Cali, I might be going to the tourney Bigfoot is hosting there.I wish i got to play you DMG