Buuman
Smash Ace
The Formula to King Dedede's Chain Grabs
I've been working with Dedede since day one. I'm also a member of the Mages, who have hosted the famous Cataclysms back in melee, and currently working on one for the East Coast Regional Circuit. I've done pretty well at a number of tourneys in CT and MA, lol when I say well, I mean making a profit(Sorry guys, I needed some ethos to throw in there lol. Why else should you guys listen to me xD. Most people look at the join date and number of posts first to determine whether or not the thread is worth reading). And I'm always up to testing if it magnifies my play style and aids me in the process of winning, which feeds my hunger of competition ultimately.
Now this may seem significant to some, and others it may not, but lets try to keep an open mind on this. Damage means everything in this game...even if it's a little bit. 1% can mean the difference between an Up tilt kill...or nearly a kill...but not quite there.
I've done some testing with numerous characters from standing on one edge of FD (yes all the way to the edge for all you critics out there) by rolling towards the edge. Then I lined up different characters right next to Dedede and CGed(dash grabbed) them all the way to the other side. You can get 5 chain grabs off against Rob for example. Now I repeated the process with the CG however I used the SHIELD GRAB CG, which cancels the run. I was able to get 7 grabs off. The down throw does 8.x% damage and diminishes but EVERY percent counts.
Although it may not seem like a lot, keep in mind you can pummel, more so depending on the percents of your opponent. And you always have a dangerous Back throw, probably fresh, stored in Dededes ROBE of ****.
The damage may not seem like a lot but lets calculate. Down throw does 8.x% and eventually diminishes down to 3.x% (which you shouldn't worry about because you can always negate with pummels and you won't be grabbing the entire match), 2 more throws = 15-16% more just by doing the standard shield grab CG. Now granted you won't always be at the maximum distance on every stage but its still more damage in the long run.
The equation:
[(sg)(8.x% - 3.x%) - [dg(8.x% - 3.x% ] = The extra damage you've done by using the shielding CG. sg equals number of shield grabs pulled off, and dg equals the number of dash grabs, throughout the entire match.
Example:
In a three stock match against R.O.B. -
I was able to get two more grabs off than the dashing grab(which was 5 grabs):
[7(8.x% - 3.x%)] - [5(8.x% - 3.x%)] = 11% gain.
NOTE: I took the average of 3 and 8 which is 5.5% to get the damage of the down throw just for this example though. I plugged in the 5.5 for both throws.
The damage will most likely be more due to the diminishing return which I'm working on adding
The damage very well could be 8% for ever down throw if you pummel and attack after the series of chain grabs, but I'll let you guys know in the near future.
Now if you got
(7(5.5%)) - (5(5.5%)) = 44% gain by shield grabbing
It very well can be more just by adding one pummel to every grab.
Here's the formula that can be applied:
[SG(8.x% - 3.x%)] - [DG(8.x% - 3.x%)]=% gain by shield grabbing
When:
SG = # of shield grabs pulled off during the entire match (If you did strictly Shield grabs the whole match, remember the amount and plug in to the FORMULA BELOW IN RED
DG = # of dash grabs pulled off during the entire match(If you did strictly dash grabs the whole match, remember the amount and plug in to the FORMULA BELOW IN RED
IMPORTANT: DG = (SG/7G)(5G) <---if you know the amount of shield grabs you did the whole match just plug in how many shield grabs were executed for SG, and the equation will convert DG for you
IMPORTANT: SG = (DG/5G)(7G) <---if you know the amount of dash grabs you did the whole match just plug in how many dash grabs were executed for SG, and the equation will convert SG for you
"7G and 5 G are constants"
7G represents how many shield grabs you can do across Final Destination
5G represents how many dash grabs you can do across Final Destination
* You can only do 7 chain grabs by using shield grabbing across FD and 5 chain grabs using dash grabbing across FD
Attack Queue
The game keeps track of this by having an "Attack Queue" where it remembers the last 9 (although it may be 10 -- best I can tell it's only 9 though) attacks that you landed on your opponent. If your attacks are getting weaker than you would like, just hit with several other attacks, and then your other moves will soon be back to full strength. ( Credit given to Scotu )
Decay Amount
A move has a base damage and Knockback. It then counts the number of times that move is in the attack queue, and has an exponential decay that it applies to the strength. The current formula I have found seems to be pretty accurate:
damage dealt = [94.424e^(-0.0991x)] * (base damage)
where x is the # of times that move is in the attack queue. ( Credit given to Scotu )
(SG/7G) = GN
(DG/5G) = GN
*EACH OF THE ABOVE CAN BE SOLVED BY SIMPLY PLUGGING IN HOW MANY SG or DG CHAIN GRABS EXECUTED
Now if we add pummeling(grab attack) into the equation. We can have P represent each pummel.
Equation with pummeling:
[SG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%)] - (DN)[DG(8.x% - 3.x%) + P(3.x% - 2.x%] = % gain by shield grabbing
to keep it simple, just have p equal 1. Which means in both CGs you're saying you get 1 pummel per grab.
Now if you know how many DGs and SGs you got off during the entire fight. You can calculate the distance of Final destination you've traveled.
a). 1Dash grab = 7/5 Shield grabs
b). 1 Shield grab = 5/7 Dash grab
*Remember: Because of the slide a dash grab covers more distance than a shield grab
Ex:
You got 9 SGs off and 3 DGs
Step one: convert DGs to SGs (which would be option "a)")
A). DG = (7/5)SG x 3DGs <---- how many dash grabs were executed
divide both sides by DG and they cancel, AND...
you have successfully converted 3DGs to (21/5)SGs or 4.2 SGs, so 4.2 SGs = 3 DGs
now because you have dash grabs in terms of SG just add:
(21/5)SGs + 9SGs = *(21/5)SGs + (45/5)SGs = (66/5)SGs throughout the match!
*{get the common denominator}
Now because we set it in terms of SGs we need to divide by 7, because remember 7 shield grabs will equal the whole length of Final Destination
(66/5)SGs also equals 13.2 SGs
(66/5)SGs/7 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs
13.2 SGs/7 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs
And guess what, we can also do it in terms of dash grabs and we're going to get the same length of Final Destination but it's going to be in terms of DGs. Check it out
You got 9 SGs off and 3 DGs
Step one: convert SGs to DGs (which would be option "b)")
A). SGs = (5/7)DGs x 9SGs <---- how many Shield grabs were executed
divide both sides by SG and they cancel (you don't have to, that just proves how it works)
AND...the RESULT:
you have successfully converted 9SGs to (45/7)DGs or 6.428571429 DGs, so 6.428571429 DGs = 9 SGs
now because you have shield grabs in terms of dash grabs just add:
(45/7)DGs + 3DGs = *(45/7)DGs + (21/7)DGs = (66/7)DGs throughout the match!
*{get the common denominator}
Now because we set it in terms of DGs we need to divide by 5, because remember 5 dash grabs will equal the whole length of Final Destination
(66/7)DGs also equals 9.428571429 DGs We'll use 9.428571429, but it doesn't matter
(66/7)DGs/5 = 1.885714286
9.428571429 DGs/5 = 1.885714286 the length of final destination in terms of SGs
So if you know how many DGs and SGs you've done you can use the
Distance Formula:
1DG = (7/5)SGs
1SG = (5/7)DGs
Step one: Pick either SGs or DGs to convert to 'it has to be one or the other'
If you want in terms of SGs it will be DGs = (7/5)SGs x (the number of DGs executed during the match)
DGs = (7/5)SGs x #DGs
DGs/DGs = (7/5)SGs x #
(cancels)
(7/5)SGs(#) + (# of SGs executed during the match) = (#/5)SGs
Finally, take ((#/5)SGs)/(7) = Length of Final Destination in terms of SGs
If you want in terms of DGs it will be SGs = (5/7)DGs x (the number of SGs executed during the match)
SGs = (5/7)DGs x #SGs
SGs/SGs = (5/7)DGs x #
(cancels)
(5/7)DGs(#) + (# of DGs executed during the match) = (#/7)DGs
Finally, take ((#/7)DGs)/(5) = Length of Final Destination in terms of DGs
*Down throw starts at 8.x% and diminishes to 3.x%
[/font]On a side note: it's not wise to pummel until after 50%.
That's just the math behind it all, I hope this helped a bit. If I've made any mistakes, speak up, don't be tentative.
I'm not trying to take credit for discovering his shield grab chain grab. However I am frustratingly, pointing out the obvious and why you Dededes don't use it is beyond me. Laziness isn't an excuse, for the melee veterans out there like me anyway. That game required so much more tech skill and fast finger movements compared to brawl.
Thanks for reading fellas. I hoped the formula and the example helped.
For those who want this thread in a nutshell:
USE SHIELD GRAB INSTEAD OF DASH GRABBING DURING CHAIN GRABS