Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I just don't have the power to write everything 500 times again. This thread is huge, I've posted every point I made at least twice.
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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.
- Thread starter Marc
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TheTantalus
Smash Hero
Who said Fox has no bad matchups? What have they been smoking
I guess they havent' heard of Pikachu, Sheik, ZSS, Marth, and some other mid tiers
I guess they havent' heard of Pikachu, Sheik, ZSS, Marth, and some other mid tiers
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Melee Fox.
Laijin
Smash Hero
Fox counter picks Fox.
That is his only bad match.
Falco is not even that bad of a match up for Fox.
That is his only bad match.
Falco is not even that bad of a match up for Fox.
Laijin
Smash Hero
btw.
I'm really hoping you guys ban Metaknight.
Because if you don't realize it yet, I'll tell you.
The brawl community will get destroyed.
;o
I'm really hoping you guys ban Metaknight.
Because if you don't realize it yet, I'll tell you.
The brawl community will get destroyed.
;o
superyoshi888
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2008
- Messages
- 1,026
And then everyone will go to Melee, right?
Anyways, people not being prepared is actually a very valid arguement. If I was in an area with few Diddys, and didn't prepare for the match up, what if I went to a tourney that had *GASP* a Diddy? Well....I'll be screwed, won't I? Likewise, if Meta Knight is banned, then there wouldn't be any point, in the eyes of the majority, to prepare for the match up....but what if you Brawled a Mk main from another country? Well....you are screwed! XD
Anyways, people not being prepared is actually a very valid arguement. If I was in an area with few Diddys, and didn't prepare for the match up, what if I went to a tourney that had *GASP* a Diddy? Well....I'll be screwed, won't I? Likewise, if Meta Knight is banned, then there wouldn't be any point, in the eyes of the majority, to prepare for the match up....but what if you Brawled a Mk main from another country? Well....you are screwed! XD
POKE40
Smash Lord
Based on the poll it is not going to happen.
Pro-Ban has the "disadvantage".
Anti-Ban has the "advantage".
Unless some major overhaul movement for MK to be banned takes place in the community, Pro-Ban's only hope is the SBR to "open their eyes".
BarDulL
Town Vampire
i already know you have...but my point still stands.
melee fox isn't anywhere near as dominant as he's made out to be on the tier list/match up ratios, so someone really isn't doing their job right. lol
JUDGE
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 24, 2009
- Messages
- 1,015
sure he has! what about marth???
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
As said, I'm too tired of argueing the same points 50 times, and I think you can understand that. I've even made a gigantic post a few pages ago.
Don't tell that to me, I'm not responsible for that.
I'm not that knowledgeable about Melee, but from what I've gathered, Marth and Fox go out fairly even, it's really stage-dependant, just like Meta Knight vs. Snake.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Then just link everyone through to that one post. Stop wasting time.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Define "bad match-ups".
Melee fox does barely lose to Marth 55-45 (which is primarily because the neutral stages slightly favor Marth).
But the primary reason why fox is a reasonable character in melee is because the rest of the top characters are so good as well. Marth's only bad match-up is Sheik, Sheik herself only does bad against Falco and Fox and so on. Almost all the match-up issues can be dealt with through stage counterpicks.
Even lower characters like Captain Falcon and peach have a very even overall match-up spread against the upper tiers, that allows them to be competitive, even against MK and the like.
Brawl is a little different in that nobody has anywhere near as good a match-up spread as MK.
Not really, Mk has a couple other close match-ups, mostly due to quirks in the game (see yoshi), but in general, MK's got a very powerful overall match-up spread.
How so, his match-up ratios and tier position show "bare" dominance, not that he should be obliterating everyone, remember, marth is only a tiny bit below Fox.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
I swear Marth beat Fox... Then again, I haven't played Melee in so long.
Tell me whats wrong about what I said. I'd love to hear some bull**** that MK has 10 even matchups.
Oh, and whoever suggests ICs are even, no. Only even on FD, thats it. I would call it 6-4 everywhere except SV, where they may have a 45-55 with him.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
The smash community is silly lol. They do tier lists by tournament wins instead of matchups and character data. Fox hasnt won a major tournament in 2 years.
Jigglypuff has.
That shouldnt mean that she should be above fox though. Cause fox should be able to **** jiggly puff
Jigglypuff has.
That shouldnt mean that she should be above fox though. Cause fox should be able to **** jiggly puff
DUCKAtl
Smash Apprentice
honestly this thing has a week, and the results are really too close to make this big of a decision, so just dont ban him now, wait until brawl hits mlg 2010 pro circuit and see what happens.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Lol @ people associating matchup ratios with Melee so heavily. In Melee...skill does the talking when you look at the upper quarter of the tier list. Hell even some low tier mains rock the **** out of some high tier mains...in style, not in a desperate and obviously limited fashion (ala Brawl lower tiers vs. Brawl higher tiers). That's the beauty of the former. <3
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
It can easily be the same in brawl, skill>matchups always.
Match-ups just tell how much is needed.
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
Smash is not the exception though. while skill does matter its not a honest judgement of where characters should be on a tier list
BarDulL
Town Vampire
justifying your one word refutes with "i'm lazy," isn't proper justification at all. if anything, you could just link one of your posts that did properly address a point someone made if you're really that lazy...hahaAs said, I'm too tired of argueing the same points 50 times, and I think you can understand that. I've even made a gigantic post a few pages ago.
Don't tell that to me, I'm not responsible for that.
I'm not that knowledgeable about Melee, but from what I've gathered, Marth and Fox go out fairly even, it's really stage-dependant, just like Meta Knight vs. Snake.
i know you're not responsible for it, but those match up charts aren't very credible. they don't make much sense, really.
for the record, marth is very good against fox. there are some stages where fox beats marth (generally oddball counterpicks like onnet/pipes) but for the most part marth's combos are inescapable at the highest levels of play vs. fox.
melee fox =/= MK
snake doesn't beat MK on neutrals, snake only goes near even with MK on counter pick stages (which are usually banned by MK anyway. the only viable cp stage that snake has against MK is halberd, i think. some say castle siege, but i've only seen 1 good snake go there and beat a good MK)
Eddie G
Smash Hero
I agree that it can be the same in Brawl, though I believe the term "easily" is stretching it a bit.
I agree with the rest as well.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Actually they do go by matchup and character data.
As such fox is the best character in the game because his matchups are the best, and also because his capabilities are the best.
The only reason he does not dominate is because of the fact that his tech skill requirement is unreasonably high.
Good way to contradict yourself btw.
lampiaio
Smash Cadet
Serious question:
what good is this poll if the winning side gets only TWO votes – three, maybe – added to the voting? The SBR consists of what, 50 people? What's 1/2/3 votes in 50, especially when one side needs two thirds majority to win?
Who wants to bet that the votes that will come from the poll will make absolutely NO difference to the final result? i.e. it will be the same with or without the additional votes.
This is just a show to make people believe that they had their say regarding the ban.
It will be very convenient, after this is finished, to argue "hey, the community has already decided for once and for all, move on", when in all fairness the community itself didn't affect the outcome at all.
what good is this poll if the winning side gets only TWO votes – three, maybe – added to the voting? The SBR consists of what, 50 people? What's 1/2/3 votes in 50, especially when one side needs two thirds majority to win?
Who wants to bet that the votes that will come from the poll will make absolutely NO difference to the final result? i.e. it will be the same with or without the additional votes.
This is just a show to make people believe that they had their say regarding the ban.
It will be very convenient, after this is finished, to argue "hey, the community has already decided for once and for all, move on", when in all fairness the community itself didn't affect the outcome at all.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
Maybe comparing Melee MUs to Brawl MUs makes no sense to you, but consider this: Fox could be Cp'd.
MK? Nope. No CP gives him a worse matchup than even. No one beats him anywhere. Not Falco at Japes, not Snake at Green Greens, not Diddy at FD.
He breaks the CP system, that is just about all we need to ban him. The system has never failed up until now, and we want to keep him in the game?
MK? Nope. No CP gives him a worse matchup than even. No one beats him anywhere. Not Falco at Japes, not Snake at Green Greens, not Diddy at FD.
He breaks the CP system, that is just about all we need to ban him. The system has never failed up until now, and we want to keep him in the game?
SuperStar21
Smash Apprentice
This is getting insane. We've voted before and we have never banned him because there is no reason to. he is not and is never going to be banned. it's about time MK haters lived with it.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Yeah but then they eventually lose because they suck and have 7-3 matchups against a character like Sheik.
Dthrow all day my boy.
Just because its pretty doesn't make it better. If anything Brawl has shown LESS 7-3 matchups than melee, so hush.
Alt account alert.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
Lol, open your eyes. He breaks the CP system, that doesn't warrant a ban?
Masmasher@
Smash Lord
I know that. I was wondering about the brawl community. Simple question does the brawl community assemble tier lists by tournament placings or am i mistaken. I know at one point a piece of the smash community decided tier lists by tournament wins/placings
Inui
Banned via Warnings
qft
Breaking the CP system doesn't matter. Every other fighting game ever has one or two characters that can't be countered.
Plus MK loses to Snake.
SuperStar21
Smash Apprentice
I have only one account.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
Its by tourney wins/placings, and matchup data usually. But something tells me that tourney wins are outweighing the latter. Hence the 5-5 between ICs and MK, which is blatant crap.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Every community has done so INCLUDING the SF3 community. -_-
Its a good way to make a short term tier list.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
There's about 100 people in the SBR (from which about 60 have voted, and some won't vote).
Theoretically, one side could make 21 votings by winning 100%, which is up to 1/5 of the whole SBR if they voted. With the current results, Pro-Ban will recieve 2 votes in the SBR poll.
The community, in fact, DOES affect the outcome. It's not a show. Stop conspiracy theories. While 2 votes might not be much, they still can affect the outcome greatly and maybe tilt the Pro-Ban side into exactly those 2/3 that they wouldn't have without. Not saying that it's close to a 2/3 majority, but still possible.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8016797&postcount=6224
SuperStar21
Smash Apprentice
No matter what decent competitive game you play there is always going to be a dominant character. and they don't get banned. simple
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Lies.Superstaraltaccount said:
You already made the statement about voting for it before hand. I highly doubt you made an account JUST now when you could have made one during the last three votes.
instead you make an account during the fourth vote?
Why not the second or third?
Why not complain then ad rack up an amazing 7 posts?
Alt account is obvious.
@spadefox: Thats still very low when you consider the amount of people who voted. Hell even if you threw out half it's still rather massive.
SuperStar21
Smash Apprentice
I had never heard of this site in the first three votes.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
I would not be opposed to give the public poll more weight if there wouldn't be people voting who don't play Brawl, don't go to tournaments or play competitively, are alt accounts, vote for the lulz or stupid reasons ("I wanna see what M2K mains if Meta gets banned", etc.), or simply have no idea what they're talking about.
However, as it stands, I personally am actually opposing giving this poll any weight in our decision whatsoever - simply because of said reasons.
Both sides are at fault here, by the way.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
it should be a vote or two for each percent.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
That was complete stupidity, that thread.
Ohhh! CP'ing MK with Falco at Japes will give me an even matchup! Therefore MK does not break the system.
BULL****
When you CP someone with a stage, you are supposed to gain a clear advantage. Oli against Falco at Japes for example. Falco will have him at a 6-4 easily.
Just getting MK to a 5-5 using your character AND a stage doesn't mean he does not break the CP system. He walks into the match with nothing worse than even or 45-55, which no character has ever done in SSBs.
Ohhh! CP'ing MK with Falco at Japes will give me an even matchup! Therefore MK does not break the system.
BULL****
When you CP someone with a stage, you are supposed to gain a clear advantage. Oli against Falco at Japes for example. Falco will have him at a 6-4 easily.
Just getting MK to a 5-5 using your character AND a stage doesn't mean he does not break the CP system. He walks into the match with nothing worse than even or 45-55, which no character has ever done in SSBs.
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