Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Kewkky]

Ugh, I was writing a huge post and the browser went stupid because I opened a tab to link a couple of threads to a couple of points. Now I don't even have the motivation to write anything.

Let's just face it: Sakurai made the game non-competitive, he said... MK is the thing he added to make it non-competitive, and in the off-chance that Final Smashes would be added to tourneys, he added Sonic's FS to make it non-competitive.

See? It all makes sense... Blind yourselves with lies, but the truth of the matter is that MK will always be on top, if he disappears Snake will be. If they both disappear then maybe we'll have different, more appealing tourney results, but if these many people are reluctant to ban MK, we might as well stay playing a non-competitive-based game competitively.

(I do agree that Kirby and ZSS are awesome though)

 

[BSP]

Simple question for all.
Are the better players winning? In any fighter, the better player should be winning matches. In your personal experiences, are the mks that are beating you...better than you?

I have lost to some metas who are simply better than me, and some who clearly are not. I'm genuinely curious as to how the rest of the community feels on this issue.

This. It's skill that's the biggest factor.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I mean.. not to really defend M2K or anything, but if I had played Meta Knight for a long and put all of my effort into him just to have him banned even though he can still lose, I'd be pretty pissed off.

Just saying..

I would also feel the same way. But on the flip side he might quit brawl, start getting he skills bach in melee and finally beat that darn Mango.

 

[etecoon]

Simple question for all.
Are the better players winning? In any fighter, the better player should be winning matches. In your personal experiences, are the mks that are beating you...better than you?

I have lost to some metas who are simply better than me, and some who clearly are not. I'm genuinely curious as to how the rest of the community feels on this issue.

I don't feel like I ever lose to MK's that played worse than me but I also play Snake who has one of the best matchups with MK, other high tiers may be different, although I wouldn't really have much thought as to what lower tier mains experiences are because this is a common occurance for them.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Many people are griping that they're not only losing to better MKs, but people of equal or slightly LESSER skill who play MK. But, then again, that could be from match-up inexperience, so yeah.

 

[ShadowLink84]

forget it, fast topic is fast.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Ugh, I was writing a huge post and the browser went stupid because I opened a tab to link a couple of threads to a couple of points. Now I don't even have the motivation to write anything.

Let's just face it: Sakurai made the game non-competitive, he said... MK is the thing he added to make it non-competitive, and in the off-chance that Final Smashes would be added to tourneys, he added Sonic's FS to make it non-competitive.

See? It all makes sense... Blind yourselves with lies, but the truth of the matter is that MK will always be on top, if he disappears Snake will be. If they both disappear then maybe we'll have different, more appealing tourney results, but if these many people are reluctant to ban MK, we might as well stay playing a non-competitive-based game competitively.

(I do agree that Kirby and ZSS are awesome though)

Don't forget about the ICs.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

Ugh, I was writing a huge post and the browser went stupid because I opened a tab to link a couple of threads to a couple of points. Now I don't even have the motivation to write anything.

Let's just face it: Sakurai made the game non-competitive, he said... MK is the thing he added to make it non-competitive, and in the off-chance that Final Smashes would be added to tourneys, he added Sonic's FS to make it non-competitive.

See? It all makes sense... Blind yourselves with lies, but the truth of the matter is that MK will always be on top, if he disappears Snake will be. If they both disappear then maybe we'll have different, more appealing tourney results, but if these many people are reluctant to ban MK, we might as well stay playing a non-competitive-based game competitively.

(I do agree that Kirby and ZSS are awesome though)

Snake has bad match ups unlike metaknight. Olimar, pikachu, and Dedede (though a lot of people say this is a very close match up).

Yeah he'll still be top tier but at least there are stages and characters he's bad against/on.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Don't forget about the ICs.

ICs can be beaten if you know how to avoid grabs and the options to escape setups. MK is another story in certain cases...

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not saying that MK makes the whole cast unviable, I'm just pointing out that he does indeed have more "****" matchups than Snake does or at least a similar amount. He tops this off by not really having much if any even matchups though, unlike Snake who has plenty as well as some disadvantages even if they might be slight. Also, tbh not much mid to low tier characters go near even with MK. Even is like 55:45ish in my book and face it, most characters in those tiers are either 60:40 or worse against him.

Yes, Meta Knight does have the advantage or is even on the whole cast, we have established this.
No, he does not make more characters "unviable" than Snake.

Of course, matchups are highly subjective at this state of the game, and our opinions may differ here, but I'm fairly certain that Snake gives more characters problems than Meta Knight does.
Additionally, so do other Top Tier characters. That's what Top Tier characters usually do, because they're, y'know, good.

While Meta Knight has no disadvantaged matchups, he has several even matchups, so he can be counterpicked. It's just not that you will have an far easier time with him regardless of your counterpick.

 

[UberMario]

I'm suprised so many people want him banned.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Ban just hit 1000.

 

[BSP]

Dang, this is going fast

 

[The Brigand]

forget it, fast topic is fast.

Tell me about it. I've been trying to post for hours now, but every time I refresh there's like two more pages.

 

[AtotheZ]

Yes, Meta Knight does have the advantage or is even on the whole cast, we have established this.
No, he does not make more characters "unviable" than Snake.

Of course, matchups are highly subjective at this state of the game, and our opinions may differ here, but I'm fairly certain that Snake gives more characters problems than Meta Knight does.
Additionally, so do other Top Tier characters. That's what Top Tier characters usually do, because they're, y'know, good.

While Meta Knight has no disadvantaged matchups, he has several even matchups, so he can be counterpicked. It's just not that you will have an far easier time with him regardless of your counterpick.

The two characters in my opinion that make the most unviable are probably falco and dedede.

 

[Inui]

Why do people keep saying Snake has disadvantages? He loses slightly to Dedede and then beats every other character in the game.

 

[lucha5]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

 

[Coffee™]

While Meta Knight has no disadvantaged matchups, he has several even matchups, so he can be counterpicked. It's just not that you will have an far easier time with him regardless of your counterpick.

I'd disagree entirely with you here. I don't think he has several even matchups, maybe one or two with the addition of cp stages but that only brings a match up to 50:50 which is kind of sad. Either way as you said matchups are subjective so theres no point to really continuing this argument since people are going to see things differently anyway.

Why do people keep saying Snake has disadvantages? He loses slightly to Dedede and then beats every other character in the game.

Stop kidding yourself.

 

[BSP]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

Maybe, but unfortunately there's nothing wecan do about it.

 

[Pr0phetic]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

Let's keep join date out of the discussion please. Brawl has a fairly large user fan base, mostly people who are new. This is talk about the TOP of the metagame, not them.

 

[etecoon]

Why do people keep saying Snake has disadvantages? He loses slightly to Dedede and then beats every other character in the game.

most snake's think olimar is worse than DDD by now

plus he loses to this little known underused mediocre character, what was his name, uh...oh right, META KNIGHT

 

[XquiZiTX8X]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

Perhaps some of us have just as much knowledge on the game as you do.

I'm from AiB. I merely joined recently so I can post on the poll, since I deserve to have a say on this as well.

 

[Sosuke]

The results of this poll will count towards the SBR decision.

This poll will close on 08-07-2009 at 02:49 PM

Your debates are silly.

*unsubscribes from thread*

 

[Inui]

Stop kidding yourself.

I should say the same to you. Snake has soooo many of these mythological counters because most Snakes are garbage and don't know match-ups or how stupidly broken their character is. When you look at how ******** Snake's damage output, frame data, KO power, etc. is, he's clearly at no disadvantage ever.

I remember so much nonsense about DK, Pikachu, and other stupid characters somehow having an advantage over Snake. False. All of that crap is just that; crap. There's no proof or solid evidence that such a stupidly good character has actual bad match-ups.

most snake's think olimar is worse than DDD by now

plus he loses to this little known underused mediocre character, what was his name, uh...oh right, META KNIGHT

Most Snakes have 0 idea what to do in that match-up because they're inexperienced or bad. Snake wins. D-throw = devastation. Simple mix-ups and cross-ups get through Olimar's camping. Grenades are still godlike.

Snake beats MK.

 

[BSP]

most snake's think olimar is worse than DDD by now

plus he loses to this little known underused mediocre character, what was his name, uh...oh right, META KNIGHT

55:45 is considered losing?

 

[Jenkins]

lol @ people writing long *** posts that no one is gonna read ;D

 

[Rockan]

dont ban him
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29055

 

[Kewkky]

i seriously bet all the noobs who joined june/july or earlier are wi-fi'ers who get owned by mk and aren't good enough with there chars to win/

I can also bet on those same grounds that you're no different... Plus a troll. Stop assuming, because you end up making an *** of u and me.

 

[Inui]

55:45 is considered losing?

55:45 in Snake's favor is what Olimar vs Snake is.

RichBrown thought Snake lost, but then UltimateRazer ***** him.

Fatal beat Dabuz last weekend.

Etc.

 

[Rudementry]

lol nvm...

 

[etecoon]

Most Snakes have 0 idea what to do in that match-up because they're inexperienced or bad. Snake wins. D-throw = devastation. Simple mix-ups and cross-ups get through Olimar's camping. Grenades are still godlike.

Snake beats MK.

Snake is grabbing Olimar why again? And it's not like Snake's are the only ones that think this, dabuz says 65:35 Olimar.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I don't think Olimar beats Snake, neither do I think Snake beats MK imo. I agree with Inui on the Olimar match-up, there are few good Oli's, and the number increases but slowly, so match-up inexperience comes into play with that argument.

 

[Rudementry]

Dang quoted in under 10 seconds... lol

 

[Red Arremer]

I'd disagree entirely with you here. I don't think he has several even matchups, maybe one or two with the addition of cp stages but that only brings a match up to 50:50 which is kind of sad. Either way as you said matchups are subjective so theres no point to really continuing this argument since people are going to see things differently anyway.

While yes, I do disagree with you... Thanks for your maturity.
I doubt we'd find a content since we both have very different experiences, and our opinions probably would differentiate.

While you probably know more about certain characters, this is the same the other way around in my case. So I appreciate we're just agreeing to disagree.

 

[BSP]

55:45 in Snake's favor is what Olimar vs Snake is.

RichBrown thought Snake lost, but then UltimateRazer ***** him.

Fatal beat Dabuz last weekend.

Etc.

I was talking about the mk matchup.

 

[Ax00x0]

I literally applaud the opening pro-ban argument. It has EVERYTHING that is wrong with the character, from VERY clear overcentralization (it should be noted that while MK already has an INSANELY high win %, this doesn't even count the number of people who have picked him up simply to counterpick other MKs or to grant quick and easy wins. I would say MK is used way, way more than his mid 20's win % shows), brokenness, and how this community continues to use horrid arguments to keep MK in play (do anyone of you remember the Apex tournament results thread? Almost every post was "Ally beat M2K. MK is not broken. Go cry, you pro-ban noobs". The onslaught of stupidity was palpable). And it doesn't helpt that the anti-ban side's arguments have been and always will be without merit, and doing nothing more than saying "nuh-uh" to the pro-ban's arguemnts, all the while providing zero evidence for their case (saying MK is overcentralized and isn't too good when he has a QUARTER OF ALL WINS under his belt is more than just wrong, it's worrying).

It doesn't help that MK's continual dominace will only continue to encourage people to pick him up or spend countless hours on trying to figure out how to beat him. As I predicted over and over again, Genesis would be swarmed with MK players. I was, obviously, correct, with MK players taking MORE THAN 50% OF ALL WIININGS. When looking at that and at the cost and time it takes to attend event like Genesis, why NOT pick up MK? This is what destroys a gaming community.

I hail from New Mexico, the first ever state to ban MK, and we still have that in place. Since then, we've seen Texas and some of Louisianna, as well as other states I have personally visited (like ND) ban or express great wanting to ban MK. I can PROMISE you, your non-MK character will become much greater without him, and your community will become a helluva lot more in depth, evolved, and more importantly, fun. Soft bans don't work, folks. We went sof ban for a while to help prepare our Genesis players, but all of us local top player agreed not to use MK. As soon as one person broke this rule, so did everyone else. And thus, in one littler tournament in New Mexico, we demonstrated the large scale, broken impact MK has.

BAN HIM. Looking at the both arguments laid before us, it is extremely clear which route to take. Looking at big name tournaments like Geneis, where 3/4, 5/10, and 8/24 of the top 4, 10, and 24 where MK players shows the obvious course of action. Common sense should dictate the logical route.

The time is now.

 

[Coffee™]

There's no proof or solid evidence that such a stupidly good character has actual bad match-ups.

Actually, I don't see any proof that he doesn't have bad matchups. I'm not saying his bad matchups are like DDD vs DK bad but he does have matchups that aren't in his favor.

While yes, I do disagree with you... Thanks for your maturity.
I doubt we'd find a content since we both have very different experiences, and our opinions probably would differentiate.

While you probably know more about certain characters, this is the same the other way around in my case. So I appreciate we're just agreeing to disagree.

 

[DSS`]

Jiggly vs Gamewatch

That is all I can say

 

[Frank West]

Snake has many more "****" matchups than Meta Knight has. Or at least a similar amount.

Snake has never inspired a thread on the Rob boards called "it's hopeless"

Snake has never been called "Marth with 10 jumps and a longer sword"

Mk has.

Meta Knight is not giving "the whole cast" or "the majority of the cast" problems, because Low Tier isn't really viable to begin with

Do you not agree that defeating Snake with say Ganon, Samus, Luigi etc. is a whole lot more possible than defeating MK?

while it's true he makes some characters less viable, but all of these characters have mathchups just as bad as Meta Knight (if not even worse).

I can't think of a B-tier(better yet A-tier) or below character who's better off fighting MK than snake.

 

[Dabuz]

Snake is grabbing Olimar why again? And it's not like Snake's are the only ones that think this, dabuz says 65:35 Olimar.

that was a joke exaggeration, its 60-40, and inui, you seem to forget why i lost to that snake, i sded second game


edit: it still is a fair matchup for both sides, nothing that really makes the other character lose hard