Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Eddie G]

I would be willing to bet 90% of the people who voted pro-ban did moreso because they have issues with MK personally rather than as a balancer.

Hell, of the people I know I can pick out a few.

That you expect people to be unbiased (And expect me to believe them to be unbiased) is extremely naive.

I know what's what already when it comes to decision making. Bias is everywhere, yada yada. I'm just saying that it is not the only possible reason that decisions were made. Or does being open-minded about possible motives still make me naive?

 

[BSP]

Probably 90% of the objections to the ban have been "Stop whining, get better." If you acknowledge that Mk is better than everyone else by a significant margin when you say this, then what you are saying is "It's not enough to be better than the other person in order to win, you have to be way better than he is in order to win."
MK , with his worst match-up being around 60-40 in his favor, means that good players will frequently lose to people inferior to them in skill. I'm not saying always. I'm just saying that since we acknowledge that Mk has the advantage over literally everyone, we also acknowledge that this means that MK mainers can get away with being worse, skill-wise, than someone who plays any other character. How is this acceptable? I thought we wanted to find out who was better skill-wise, not who plays the better character. Snake has characters where he is disadvantaged, meaning someone with equal skill can counterpick against him and potentially win. MK does not have any matchups where he is disadvantaged, meaning that the MK player never has to worry about actually being better than the other person.
Also, even though my post count is low, i've been playing melee and brawl since their respective releases. I am not just some noob off the street.

What? Since when is mk's worst matchup 60-40?

 

[iRJi]

Probably 90% of the objections to the ban have been "Stop whining, get better." If you acknowledge that Mk is better than everyone else by a significant margin when you say this, then what you are saying is "It's not enough to be better than the other person in order to win, you have to be way better than he is in order to win."
MK , with his worst match-up being around 60-40 in his favor, means that good players will frequently lose to people inferior to them in skill. I'm not saying always. I'm just saying that since we acknowledge that Mk has the advantage over literally everyone, we also acknowledge that this means that MK mainers can get away with being worse, skill-wise, than someone who plays any other character. How is this acceptable? I thought we wanted to find out who was better skill-wise, not who plays the better character. Snake has characters where he is disadvantaged, meaning someone with equal skill can counterpick against him and potentially win. MK does not have any matchups where he is disadvantaged, meaning that the MK player never has to worry about actually being better than the other person.
Also, even though my post count is low, i've been playing melee and brawl since their respective releases. I am not just some noob off the street.

He has even matchups. Need to do a bit more research before posting my friend =/

 

[AvaricePanda]

Pit, Kirby, and Yoshi have awesome air games (although Yoshi has to more precise or risk SD-ing)

Less people will be desperate to be anti-MK by using Snake and Wario.

Captain Falcon will get popularity out of nowhere because of all the MKs that are no longer playing as MK.

Zelda . . . . . I forgot why.

Mario has relatively large advantage against Diddy (his cape cancels out the effects of banana-guarding.)

That's what I think anyway.

His cape also has considerable start-up and lag time, which can be punished by baiting capes via dribbles via monkey-flipping, or just not even using bananas.

 

[shogun.]

lol at this pro-ban argument of mid/low tiers getting better placements if mk is gone.
OMG mid/low tiers arent even supposed to make it in tourneys

theyre mid/low tier lolololol
either live with your main sucking or move the **** on.
i can't believe how immature ppl are sometimes lololol

 

[Eddie G]

Hmm?

Okay one, if it boosts Snake and doesn't help nor hurt MK, how is it the stage not hurting MK? He's playing on a stage with a really low ceiling, against a character who kills really well off the ceiling.

Whether or not it's technically "helping Snake," or "hurting Meta Knight," is irrelevant, as ultimately Meta Knight is getting a disadvantage because he's going to die earlier.

Assuming the MK is a total moron, then yes I would have to agree.

 

[Kinzer]

Except marth is easier to deal with than MK. WHy in the hell do the sonic boardstink marth is a bad matchup?
Seriously...

in anycase, looka t your argument.
G&W and Marth would become bigger threats. That is bringing in popularity because popularity concerns the amount of usage a character would see in tournaments.
It is irrelevant.


Because most of the sonic community sucks. lol/

Seriously
Marth is far from a bad matchup.
Think of it this way, anything Marth could do MK could do better.
The only area that Marth out performed MK, was defense.

Most likely, the issue is that Sonic mains are having issue dealing with Marth's defensive options, even though Sonic has the means and tools to deal with Marth's defensive gameplay.

In terms of movement, we beat Marth.
His OOS options are hurt by Sonic's jump canceling abilities.
So really, it isn't a bad matchup for Sonic.

Certainly Marth does have an advantage, but nothing beyond 60-40.
Don't jump into the ****.


That the arguments of pro ban need to defeat the basic principles of what deems a ban and have yet to do so.

Apparently it's been like that for God knows how long, and some people actually were going about how Marth was a 6:4 disadvantage, but I guess I wasn't getting @ that future status, hanging back where it's 65:35.

But hey you know what, if it's actually true, then it would be a good thing that I'm wrong, 'cause it means Sonic's metagame is developing, which only proves a point of mien a while ago where I said that a buncha whiny babies who don't want to play some MUS including MK are part of the problem for pro-ban.

Anyway why is popularity irrelevant? I can understand not being a huge part of a metagame revolution but it would change some things.

You don't think that with MK gone people would look into different characters, couple of them being Marth or G&W (assuming Marth really is only 6:4)? Maybe I'm missing something, do you mind hitting me up with that info if it exists?

NoU.

So then we're at an agreement here, right? I don't know the less we divide our focus on, the better, just tell me "yes."

 

[Eddie G]

lol at this pro-ban argument of mid/low tiers getting better placements if mk is gone.
OMG mid/low tiers arent even supposed to make it in tourneys

theyre mid/low tier lolololol
either live with your main sucking or move the **** on.

Shut up.

Peach dismisses your narrow-minded tourney logic.

 

[UberMario]

His cape also has considerable start-up and lag time, which can be punished by baiting capes via dribbles via monkey-flipping, or just not even using bananas.

What do you mean "dribbling?" and also Mario's UpB beats bananas at the startup as well.

 

[shogun.]

Shut up.

Peach dismisses your narrow-minded tourney logic.

if a "low tier" character starts placing well and some ppl pick him up and start placing well too, then the character isnt exactly low tier then...

i mean who is to say peach is low tier? the sbr?

 

[Inui]

My signature would like to argue otherwise, as well as a good 3/4th (or any good) Snake main.

Inui, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

http://allisbrawl.com/medals.aspx?id=4424

Yup, I know nothing of high level play. I can't win/place at national and regional tournaments. I'm garbage.

Also, my Snake is so terrible that it beat teh_spamerer, g-regulate, Shadow, Snakeee, ksizzle, dmbrandon, and other top class players in MMs or tournament sets. Please teach me how to beat good players with Snake! I'm a terrible Snake!

I also don't travel the entire country for this game. I don't witness everything awesome with my own two eyes. I don't host tournaments that bring the most talented players together. Nope.

This purple name means I'm a noob. It doesn't mean I'm talented, knowledgable, or a top host.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

if you look at the results of the poll so far...

there are 12 purple names on the ban side (if you count chibo), 11 purple names on the don't ban side. with the 2 extra ban votes from the community poll, that makes the count 14-11. there needs to be 2/3 difference to ban, which means that ban would need at least 7 more votes while the don't ban would have to stay the same.

and i somehow doubt every SBR member that hasn't voted yet will go to the Ban side, so...we might as well just close this thing now

i've never understood this but i wanna know, what do the colors mean for your name?

and is there any way that we can do a temporary ban for like 3 months and see how the game changes, then decide whether or not it was a bad decision, i personally want mk to stay but i am quite curious to see what'll happen to results if he is banned...just for the sake of advancing the metagame we should at least try it...so people can learn matchups rather than learn mk (or how to fight mk)

 

[Johnny Citrus]

What do you mean "dribbling?" and also Mario's UpB beats bananas at the startup as well.

Why does it matter? Mario will still be low tier, mk or no mk.

 

[MarKO X]

there is no evidence that any one character would dominate if mk is banned.
other than something about mk banned tourneys where marth and snake dominates....

but does that even matter? whoever dominates after the ban (assuming mk gets banned for the sake of this point) does not become the broken character that mk is... right?

 

[iRJi]

i've never understood this but i wanna know, what do the colors mean for your name?

You are asking this at the wrong time. Lol. Look it up, it some where on the forums.

 

[Limeee]

i could see marth being the next best if MK is banned but i'm all for it. marth has a counter and he requires lots of tech skill to play as



pssssst... i'm totally not biased

 

[Llumys]

I'm surprised this discussion is still revolving around discussing opinion's credibility.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Apparently it's been like that for God knows how long, and some people actually were going about how Marth was a 6:4 disadvantage, but I guess I wasn't getting @ that future status, hanging back where it's 65:35.

Get future son.

But hey you know what, if it's actually true, then it would be a good thing that I'm wrong, 'cause it means Sonic's metagame is developing, which only proves a point of mien a while ago where I said that a buncha whiny babies who don't want to play some MUS including MK are part of the problem for pro-ban.

I agree. Alot of people whine about MK and hence, feel he is ban worthy. It would be understandable if they atempted to raise valid points.

Sonic's metagame has developed wel, considering how we thought MK was a hard counter as wll as Luigi, and now they are only soft disadvantages not hard as we thought.

Anyway why is popularity irrelevant? I can understand not being a huge part of a metagame revolution but it would change some things.

Beause the game cannot change.
Ganonrf will forever suck even if everyone picked him up for a year.
Same for every other character,

Popularity is meaningless because it does not change characters.

You don't think that with MK gone people would look into different characters, couple of them being Marth or G&W (assuming Marth really is only 6:4)? Maybe I'm missing something, do you mind hitting me up with that info if it exists?

I do think marth is a liiiiittle word than 6-4. I hate facing MK whenever I whip out Marth, I honestly would rather use my garbage Sonic.

G&W I cannot speak for.
I do not believe those characters would really see a boost because there are characters whom they face that hit just as hard.

NoU.

NoUrMama

So then we're at an agreement here, right? I don't know the less we divide our focus on, the better, just tell me "yes."

Yes

 

[AvaricePanda]

Assuming the MK is a total moron, then yes I would have to agree.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

Do you mean that assuming he's a moron enough to get hit by an U-tilt and suffer from the low ceiling? Or what? If you mean that, "He only really has a disadvantage if he's a moron," then yeah...

In a match-up, if Snake takes MK to Halberd, Snake has a larger advantage than normal, which correlates to Meta Knight having a disadvantage campared to normal, A.K.A. this is a worse stage for him in this situation.

 

[Inui]

ShadowLink84 for SBR, imo. I'll recommend you and see if others will as well.

 

[Melomaniacal]

i could see marth being the next best if MK is banned but i'm all for it. marth has a counter and he requires lots of tech skill to play as



pssssst... i'm totally not biased

You heard it first.

Counters > you.

 

[Kinzer]

Shadowlink is pretty cool and doesn't afraid of writing big ol' walls of text that I always read, no sarcasm.

But yeah, he pretty much owned me.

However he did confirm to me that Sonic... would probably stay where he is if MK is gone, so what difference does it make if I'm anti/pro ban?

 

[ETWIST51294]

i could see marth being the next best if MK is banned but i'm all for it. marth has a counter and he requires lots of tech skill to play as



pssssst... i'm totally not biased

>.> Brawl has a lot of things but tech skill is not one of them...

 

[Smith]

You do realize Everlasting Yayuhz voted for MK banned, right? I think it's over.

 

[AvaricePanda]

What do you mean "dribbling?" and also Mario's UpB beats bananas at the startup as well.

I mean glide-tossing backwards and throwing the banana downwards, being able to catch the banana again and retaliate.

You're looking at the match-up VERY linearly. You're saying, "Cape reflects bananas, and the starting frames of upB get past bananas, therefore Mario is able to beat Diddy." However, by saying this, you're implying that:

1) Cape and upB aren't very punishable.
2) Diddy doesn't have the tools to punish you for using both of those.
3) Cape and upB have 0 start-up frames, and you can use them instantly whenever a banana will be thrown at you
4) You'll always be using cape when we throw a banana at you.
5) We'll always be spaced badly so that if you do cape a banana, it will trip us,
6) Diddy is going to straight up throw a banana at you in the first place.
7) Diddy doesn't have any tools or moves, for that regard, other than his bananas.

All of which, is completely untrue.

 

[stingers]

You do realize Everlasting Yayuhz voted for MK banned, right? I think it's over.

this mighty fine piece of *** just brought up a **** good point

 

[AvaricePanda]

ShadowLink84 for SBR, imo. I'll recommend you and see if others will as well.

This.

10this.

 

[Melomaniacal]

1) Cape and upB aren't very punishable.
2) Diddy doesn't have the tools to punish you for using both of those.
3) Cape and upB have 0 start-up frames, and you can use them instantly whenever a banana will be thrown at you
4) You'll always be using cape when we throw a banana at you.
5) We'll always be spaced badly so that if you do cape a banana, it will trip us,
6) Diddy is going to straight up throw a banana at you in the first place.
7) Diddy doesn't have any tools or moves, for that regard, other than his bananas.

Haha, I just read this, and was thinking "what... the ****?"

Taking things out of context = BAD.

 

[UberMario]

I mean glide-tossing backwards and throwing the banana downwards, being able to catch the banana again and retaliate.

You're looking at the match-up VERY linearly. You're saying, "Cape reflects bananas, and the starting frames of upB get past bananas, therefore Mario is able to beat Diddy." However, by saying this, you're implying that:

1) Cape and upB aren't very punishable.
2) Diddy doesn't have the tools to punish you for using both of those.
3) Cape and upB have 0 start-up frames, and you can use them instantly whenever a banana will be thrown at you
4) You'll always be using cape when we throw a banana at you.
5) We'll always be spaced badly so that if you do cape a banana, it will trip us,
6) Diddy is going to straight up throw a banana at you in the first place.
7) Diddy doesn't have any tools or moves, for that regard, other than his bananas.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the entire match, I was just talking about Diddy's awesome edgeguarding using bananas and how cape can help Mario from a banana-edgeguarder. Although I do have to agree, the match as a whole is relatively even, and that cape is punishable. Let's just forget the subject and get back on the main point of this thread.

 

[Red Arremer]

1) Every metaknight main will move the a A or S tier. This simply isn't true, some will quit the game entirely,

First of all, I was saying "the leftovers", meaning the people who don't quit playing the game.

others will move to mid/low tiers.

Secondly, I doubt this one. Of course you'll have people without much competitive mindset or so switching to Mid or Low Tier, but in general you will have people switch to other Top and High Tiers. Especially the Top players.

By the way, metaknights leaving the community is a TERRIBLE side effect, as people leaving any tight community like the smash one is a shame. If many metaknights would do this, it may reverse my opinion on the ban entirely, not that my opinion is that strong to start with.

But this is exactly what will happen. A lot of Meta Knight players will quit the game, most prominently Mew2King. He - and many other Meta Knight mains - have spent many many hours to become better with their character. These many many hours would poof into thin air and they'd have to start over all again. Mew2King stated he only likes to play Meta Knight because of the playstyle, and that no other characters appeal to him. I'm pretty sure that's also the reasoning for Dojo, Tyrant, and all the other Top Meta Knights. I would feel the same in their position.

I bet that if you compare the matchups of every low/mid tier vs metaknight with the average matchup of every low/mid tier vs every A/S tier combined, metaknight alone would have a better average matchup.

lol, what BS, sorry, man.
Meta Knight may have no disadvantaged matchups overall, but this is really quite a stretch, don't you think? Do you really believe that Meta Knight - when I already said that there's only a handful of characters he really destroys in the cast - has overall better matchups against Mid and Low Tier than the WHOLE High Tier TOGETHER? LOL! You just lost all your creditibility.

I'm saying that it would *significantly* improve most low/mid tier characters expected matchup ratio for an average tournament.

Not really. At least not significantly. They'll still run into High Tiers. And each of them has a harder High Tier matchup than Meta Knight.
So while ... let's say Lucario (because I'm tired and can't think of a better example right now) won't run into a Meta Knight - a slightly disadvantaged matchup, I'd say - the probability of him running into a Dedede, one of his harder matchups, is far higher than before!
Considering Dedede is already the #3 in the character ranking, there can only be an increase of Dedede players.

The same goes for any character that has a bad matchup in general. While the chances they will run into Meta Knight - usually only a slightly disadvantageous matchup - are zero, the chances they'll run into their HARDER matchups is significantly higher, since the Meta Knights have been washed into the other characters. Especially if this harder matchup is spread in the Top or High Tier.

I hope you are able to grasp the fact that these characters will not do better overall at all (with a few possible exceptions).

 

[Inui]

This.

10this.

I also recommended you, lmao. Several people did. This poll is at least bringing out some smart minds amongst the commoners.

Keep up the good work.

 

[stingers]

look at inui, acting like his recommendations actually matter

 

[Vorguen]

My signature would like to argue otherwise, as well as a good 3/4th (or any good) Snake main.

Inui, you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Actually DDD is far from Snake's hardest matchup, it just requires an entirely different approach since anything Snake does can be shield grabbed by DDD which means a lot of damage and edguard opportunity. However, Snake is extremely safe when camping DDD and he edguards DDD back well, so it just takes a different kind of (a more campy) approach and the matchup really comes down to something around 55/45 in DDD's favor, at worse 6/4 in DDD's, but really nothing too difficult. I say 6/4 because DDD can still CP stages over you much better than you can since DDD has a strong aerial game and can probably **** Snake in more CP's.

I would say Snake's worse matchup is Olimar. At least the hardest and most grinding. Olimar can camp Snake back equally well, so it comes down to who has the best camping and experience, since Snake CAN'T approach Olimar safely. So it's the same scenario as DDD, however in this case Olimar can camp Snake back as well as Snake can camp him.

Long story short, no way Snake is more broken than Meta Knight.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf3w&feature=channel_page lol

 

[UberMario]

But this is exactly what will happen. A lot of Meta Knight players will quit the game, most prominently Mew2King.

LOL you think the master of Melee will quit Brawl because of his main?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

For example, ZSS, who does fine against Meta but has much more of an issue with Falco, Snake, and D3, who are all characters I would expect to see a ton of once MK drops off the face of the metagame.

ZSS has a slight advantage on D3 and Snake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

ShadowLink84 for SBR, imo. I'll recommend you and see if others will as well.

!

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3175413

 

[Vyse]

look at inui, acting like his recommendations actually matter

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't make posts like that or you'll get an infraction.


Again.

 

[lucha5]

LOL you think the master of Melee will quit Brawl because of his main?

He;s said some on some quotes he would either quit brawl or go back to boring d3. which will prob go back to quitting.

 

[Melomaniacal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4jYJ-Yjf3w&feature=channel_page lol

What is this video supposed to be proving? That Metaknight is somehow so good that he ***** Metaknight? Or are we bringing back the planking ban argument now?