Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[WaterTails]

And all MK's don't make mistakes?

No, but in Brawl, most of the time, one mistake doesn't lead to a death, unless your opponent sets up an infinite.

 

[Cloud9157]

So you think you can apply the "bad matchups" from 64 to Brawl? Two completely different games, both ingame and outside of it. After MK, the top tiers all have bad matchups, so your comparison means jack, since this is Brawl and not 64.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Yes, because Pika has no other fault, right? If that is the case, then go ahead and ban him.


See, if MK had some serious weaknesses, I wouldn't mind that he has no bad stages.

64/=/ Brawl for the "no bad matchups" argument. Snake has bad matchups, Falco has bad ones, Diddy has matchups, everyone does in Brawl except for MK.

Other characters have no bad universal stages, or only one bad universal stage (in which case it can be banned); MK is not unique in this aspect.

As someone said before me, Diddy's metagame isn't still, "OMFG NOT FLAT STAGE WAT WE DO?" Arguably, his only universal bad stage is Brinstar (and even that can be used as a counterpick against Lucario, maybe). Ban that with your one free ban, and congratulations, no bad stages.

Wario's possibly worst stage is Luigi's Mansion, which isn't even legal in some regions, and if it is, you can ban it. No bad stages.

People say Snake doesn't do well on RC, but really there's only a section of the stage that gives him real trouble, while the rest of the stage actually helps him (same with Diddy here). It's arguably not even a bad stage. And if it is, ban it, no bad stages.

So if MK bans FD against Diddy, the match-up isn't suddenly not even because no other stage has platforms. It's close to even on nearly every stage except RC and Brinstar, really. Stages that Diddy does well on in this match-up are FD, BF, SV, PS1, arguably Castle Siege. Halberd isn't too bad; if MK tries to go under the stage and U-air, Diddy can upB and spike him. Same with Delfino, although the rest of the stage isn't that great for Diddy in this match-up.

I don't know enough of the other characters to speak specifically about their good and bad stages in this match-up, but Diddy has much more than just FD.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Also btw, like I've said before, the gap in match ups between MK and Snake is ****ing near non existent.

 

[AvaricePanda]

So you think you can apply the "bad matchups" from 64 to Brawl? Two completely different games, both ingame and outside of it. After MK, the top tiers all have bad matchups, so your comparison means jack, since this is Brawl and not 64.

After Pikachu, Fox has a bad match-up (against Pikachu, lol).

Unless you mean after you ban Pikachu, and who has bad match-ups after that (but that's kinda...)

You also have to think this, the whole "Other games have top characters with at worst even match-ups thing" doesn't mean, "since they aren't banned, we don't ban MK." It means look at Melee, look at SSB64, look at SFIV, etc etc. They have top characters with at worst even match-ups. If everybody thought on paper, everybody would main them, and the meta-game would crumble, right? But it doesn't. People main other characters for various reasons, and there are still other viable characters. Each game has healthy, competitive metagames despite the fact that a character with no stage-universal bad match-ups is at the top. Therefore, there's no evidence to say that MK would crumble the metagame of Brawl for this reason.

 

[The Brigand]

'kay, I'm gonna be serious for a moment here.

From the look of this discussion, it seems to be that the best counter to MK now is to learn how to play as Diddy (or Snake, or G&W) and seriously learn what stages they can outperform other characters on, yes?

In that case, I regret ever voting pro-ban. I now have a good reason to learn how to play as that little monkey.

 

[Hobobloke]

Why are we still comparing Brawl to other games? It's like comparing soccer and football, they are both sports played competitively but are completely different.

 

[Raikou_Cypher]

'kay, I'm gonna be serious for a moment here.

From the look of this discussion, it seems to be that the best counter to MK now is to learn how to play as Diddy (or Snake, or G&W) and seriously learn what stages they can outperform other characters on, yes?

In that case, I regret ever voting pro-ban. I now have a good reason to learn how to play as that little monkey.

hey...that sounds familiar...

like...overcentralizing the metagame...?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Snake vs. MK is definitely in Snakes favor, if only slightly. Just saying.

 

[Cloud9157]

AP, I don't think Diddy does that well at Norfair, which is usually not banned iirc. He does alright at Cruise overall but MK being there hurts him.

Falcon, I agree 100%. The matchup is 55/45/even/45-55, very debatable I understand. But they both have so many tricks on each other, it just comes down to the stage and player skill to determine who wins.

 

['V']

Also btw, like I've said before, the gap in match ups between MK and Snake is ****ing near non existent.

QFT. I've seen Snakes destroy D3's and ROB's before. I don't know how those are bad for Snake, cuz I just don't see it. They're even at best in my eyes.

Whatever...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes. Just like you have to pick or counterpick a character just for Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, Dedede, etc.
If your character can't deal with Snake, then you'll have to play a character who has less trouble against Snake.
If your character can't deal with Wario, then you'll have to play a character who has less trouble against Wario.
etc.

That's not a trait that specifically is owned by Meta Knight.

Also, I knew it. <_<

I address this on page 416. Out of all I wrote, you responded to one sentence? Heck, I even answer this rebuttal in the same post...

 

['V']

it just comes down to the stage and player skill to determine who wins.

Discussion over.

/thread

 

[Shadow102]

Don't ban metaknight. He is part off the game that we have to live with.

Think of it this way. If every perfect/near perfect characters about mabye half the S tier would be gone. Don't ban meta. He's part of the game, deal with it.

 

[The Brigand]

hey...that sounds familiar...

like...overcentralizing the metagame...?

Eh, I don't buy that. To me it's a very Rock-Paper-Scissors kind of thing.

Now it'd be bad if it was Ganondorf who happened to be MK's bad matchup, because really now. The worst character in the entire game? Somehow having the advantage over the best character in the game? It just sounds too ridiculous to be true.

 

[AvaricePanda]

AP, I don't think Diddy does that well at Norfair, which is usually not banned iirc. He does alright at Cruise overall but MK being there hurts him.

Falcon, I agree 100%. The matchup is 55/45/even/45-55, very debatable I understand. But they both have so many tricks on each other, it just comes down to the stage and player skill to determine who wins.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about their match-up, he was talking about overall match-ups. MK has no universal bad match-ups at this moment, while Snake has arguably one that's 55:45.

Diddy actually does pretty well on Norfair. Again, not solid ground doesn't take away much from banana game. Double and single banana locks get nerfs, but that's essentially it. He has good mobility from platform to platform due to his smashed sideB, his peanuts shoot in very good arcs to hit the opponent, and if he gets a stock or percent lead, he can camp the bottom platform with two bananas, and it's a very dominating position.

Diddy vs. MK at RC is doable. The ship isn't ideal because it's small, but it's not bad, and the top scrolling third is pretty good for both characters. The moving second third or whatever, again, isn't ideal, but Diddy doesn't have bad vertical movement, and he has better mobility options than most others on the stage. He just has to play more defensively at that part.

IMO Brinstar overall is a worse stage for Diddy (as counterpicking some characters like...Ganon, Lucario, and maybe Snake works at RC, while Brinstar isn't really a good counterpick for any characters). In this match-up, banning RC is probably a better bet. Either one is doable, though.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Also btw, like I've said before, the gap in match ups between MK and Snake is ****ing near non existent.

Agreed-- sadly, many people do not realize this.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Don't ban metaknight. He is part off the game that we have to live with.

Think of it this way. If every perfect/near perfect characters about mabye half the S tier would be gone. It would waste all of the time it took to build those meta games. Don't ban meta. He's part of the game, deal with it.

... Metaknight's the only one character in S tier that even comes close to this description so that argument is moot...

 

[AvaricePanda]

... Metaknight's the only one character in S tier that even comes close to this description so that argument is moot...

Only by theorycraft.

By theorycraft, MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy maybe, and ICs are all "perfect" or "near perfect" characters.

There's no way to realistically cut off which character's perfect or near perfect out of the top tier characters. If you say, "MK is an amazing character because of great frame data," I could say, "ICs are a perfect character because they punish a trip, lag, predictability, or any other mistake with death, and have a large desynching ceiling," or, "Snake's a perfect character because of a great camping game, disjointed hitboxes, high damaging attacks, and being the best killer," etc.

 

[PolMex23]

Why dont we get rid of grab releases too?

Its really gay xD

 

[aeghrur]

Only by theorycraft.

By theorycraft, MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy maybe, and ICs are all "perfect" or "near perfect" characters.

There's no way to realistically cut off which character's perfect or near perfect out of the top tier characters. If you say, "MK is an amazing character because of great frame data," I could say, "ICs are a perfect character because they punish a trip, lag, predictability, or any other mistake with death, and have a large desynching ceiling," or, "Snake's a perfect character because of a great camping game, disjointed hitboxes, high damaging attacks, and being the best killer," etc.

I thought theorycrafting would mean Wolf was one of the best due to his shine. =/

 

[Hobobloke]

No grab releases is all Bowser has!

 

[The Brigand]

Banning grab releases makes Ganondorf marginally less useless! BAN THEM!

 

['V']

Why dont we get rid of grab releases too?

Its really gay xD

Get rid of infinite chain grabs while you're at it.

 

[MarKO X]

Why dont we get rid of grab releases too?

Its really gay xD

Might as well.
I mean, we did ban planking... right?

 

[ShinoBee]

My visual blog argument to this matter:

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=29830

 

[Fatmanonice]

By looking at that chart with the "no bad matchups" argument, almost every character after Pikachu would have none until you get all the way down to Luigi.

Congratulations. Over half of the cast is gone.

*hits himself in the face with a brick multiple times*

You could 0-death people in Smash Bros and Melee if they made a mistake. In Brawl, the only way you can do that is with infinites.

Also btw, like I've said before, the gap in match ups between MK and Snake is ****ing near non existent.

*goes to Snake boards*

Snake easily has more even match ups with the top/high tiers than ZOMG **** matchups like Metaknight.

*inb4snkebordsrscrubs

 

[ppig]

i think if meta knight is banned it will make the game way more even and more enjoyable for the smash community but i dont play brawl lol its to boring

 

['V']

*hits himself in the face with a brick multiple times*

You could 0-death people in Smash Bros and Melee if they made a mistake. In Brawl, the only way you can do that is with infinites.

I'd love to see you try to 0-death anyone with Link or Samus.

 

[kirbywizard]

The main reason I voted pro ban was the fear of seeing the future of brawl only being how to beat Metaknight >_>.

 

[Sosuke]

I'd love to see you try to 0-death anyone with Link or Samus.

Are you joking?

 

[ShinoBee]

The main reason I voted pro ban was the fear of seeing the future of brawl only being how to beat Metaknight >_>.

It's called "step up your game".

This isn't Gill or Akuma.

 

[kirbywizard]

Are you joking?

SO far after reading the last few pages it seems he is serious >_>

 

[Fatmanonice]

Only by theorycraft.

By theorycraft, MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy maybe, and ICs are all "perfect" or "near perfect" characters.

There's no way to realistically cut off which character's perfect or near perfect out of the top tier characters. If you say, "MK is an amazing character because of great frame data," I could say, "ICs are a perfect character because they punish a trip, lag, predictability, or any other mistake with death, and have a large desynching ceiling," or, "Snake's a perfect character because of a great camping game, disjointed hitboxes, high damaging attacks, and being the best killer," etc.

Melee had Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek and the Ice Climbers as theoritically "perfect" characters too. Under "perfect" conditions, Fox and Falco could negate all damage in the game with the shine, Marth could never be touched with perfect spacing, Shiek could more easily than anyone in the cast 0-death everyone if they didn't make a mistake, and the Ice Climbers could infinite everyone. Again, the difference in the gaps between them and the gap between the characters in Brawl are more than obvious and, even then, weren't the Ice Climbers mid-tier in Melee?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

The main reason I voted pro ban was the fear of seeing the future of brawl only being how to beat Metaknight >_>.

:flame:
I hope that he isn't banned and more newbs think "OKAY, HE'S STILL IN, TIME TO DEVOTE MY LIFE AND SOUL INTO ONLY BEATING THIS ONE CHARACTER" instead of trying to simply outskill and outthink the player. That way, I'll be able to pick any of my other 12 favorite characters and have an unquestioable advantage.

It seems that this issue is only so big because of the Party System known as the Wii. If Brawl and the atmosphere around it were tailored to those that grew up with Mario, there would be far less whiny complaining lazy idiots who would think of blindly following the tierlists in search of trying to find the easiest way to win, instead of simply getting good naturally and fighting with who they like. Metaknight might be the best overall character, but he isn't the best person for everyone to use. And this generation seems to not understand that, and only wants to use him so they don't have to work hard. Bunch of lazy little monkeys. -.-

By the way, I spent the last few days sleeping and schedualing classes for college. What have I missed so far in the debates? I still need to check over that mind bowing op again....
:flame:

 

[Hobobloke]

I'd love to see you try to 0-death anyone with Link or Samus.

1. Go to Youtube
2. Type in "Link combo isai"
3. ???
4. Profit

 

[Sosuke]

It's called "step up your game".

Silly people need to stop saying that as the universal anti-ban rebuttal.

That had NOTHING to do with his post.



Even I can 0-death with Link. And I suck at Smash.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Why are we still comparing Brawl to other games? It's like comparing soccer and football, they are both sports played competitively but are completely different.

Those are two completely different types of games, with rulesets that are basically completely different, the rule set differences between most fighters is pretty consistent. It isn't some completely different beast, it's still a fighter.

I can not believe people are still asking that question, stop making my eyes bleed.

 

[kirbywizard]

It's called "step up your game".

This isn't Gill or Akuma.

Why do I bother to get better with my mains Luigi, JIggs, and Olimar only to have them get destroyed by the likes of Metaknight. Yes I could try to get better, but as I get better so does Metaknight. Then I am left in the same situation. Now I have to learn how to use SNake and Diddy to the best of my abilitys in hopes of getting a 50-50 chance at best to beat a good Metaknight player.

 

[swordgard]

Other characters have no bad universal stages, or only one bad universal stage (in which case it can be banned); MK is not unique in this aspect.

As someone said before me, Diddy's metagame isn't still, "OMFG NOT FLAT STAGE WAT WE DO?"

Id LOL so bad if a diddy would say that on another stage.