Fox 3.6 Change Discussion

[Mazdamaxsti]

So we all know Fox's changes in 3.6

Jab 1
-Angle lowered to 55 from 70.

Smashes
-Forward Smash
--Hitbox comes out one frame later (frame 12) to match Melee.

Specials
-Up Special (Firefox)
--Landing lag increased from 6 frames to 20.
--Landing lag after special fall increased from 3 frames to 7.

-Side Special
--Landing lag after special fall increased from 3 frames to 7.
--No longer slides during startup, preventing a bug relating to sliding off and down of platforms.

-Down Special (Grounded Reflector)
--Fixed the bug where reflector gets double SFX and GFX if he edge cancels on frame 1.

-Down Special (Aerial Reflector)
--100 weight-dependent set knockback replaced with a standard knockback curve.
--Base knockback set to 55.
--Knokback growth set to 35.
--Angle set to 20.

So I made this thread to discuss the changes that were given to Fox this time around. This is easily called a nerf, but it isn't TOO bad (apart from shine, does it even shine spike anymore lol).

Discuss your thoughts.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Does the jab change mean no more jab-usmash? Also recovery nerfs mean no more Sakurai combos?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Does the jab change mean no more jab-usmash? Also recovery nerfs mean no more Sakurai combos?

I don't know about jab, but I am pretty sure Sakurai combos are out the window :/

 

[Celestis]

Why does Fox have to get picked on so much.

Yes, the new Jab messes up the Jab Up-Smash.

 

[Magus420]

Jab dash u-smash still works on neutral and inward DI. Sakurai combo can work if the time between it hitting and landing is short enough.

 

[Aldo]

Can someone make a tl;dr for his shine? I'm hearing you can't shine spike anymore.

 

[prem]

you cant shine spike until they are like 50 or 60% now (not exactly but around those percents). i shine spiked a ganon at 30 but ganon has awful recovery so yeah

 

[Celestis]

The jab also seems to mess up his jab reset. Fox options just going out the window. I don't even want to play him anymore =/

And Shine can now kill potentially. That is so weird and alien.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

The jab also seems to mess up his jab reset. Fox options just going out the window. I don't even want to play him anymore =/

And Shine can now kill potentially. That is so weird and alien.

explain

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

20 ****ing frames of landing lag and nerfed the shine like really?
This is so stupid

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Is special fall just when I land on stage from a helpless state? If so how often is the 20 frame landing lag even going to be relevant?

 

[CyberZixx]

Why does Fox have to get picked on so much.

He was easily the best character last version. Worse characters also got nerfs. Fox hardly gets picked on. Quite the opposite.

20 ****ing frames of landing lag and nerfed the shine like really?
This is so stupid

See above.

 

[victinivcreate1]

He was easily the best character last version. Worse characters also got nerfs. Fox hardly gets picked on. Quite the opposite.



See above.

I thought Wolf was.

And in 3.02 we had Melee Fox, and he was barely top 10. I don't think Falco was even top 15 lol.

 

[CyberZixx]

Well I strongly dissagree. I feel like Fox was the best character with a bullet. To each their own.

 

[Manaconda]

3.02 Fox was pushed out of the spotlight by even jankier characters.

And the extreme up-B lag only happens if you hit the stage in the firefox animation. Recovering high and landing onto the stage in the helpless state gives you 7 frames of landing lag, still on the far lower end for most of the PM cast. Go into debug and test it.

And Sakurai combo is kill unless you actually hit your opponent on the way down.

 

[Kapapanerp]

People are really crying over these tiny nerfs? Ugh, your broke ass shine is still a frame 1 spike. I'm sure you'll still be able to shut out most of the cast =P

 

[Shadic]

20 ****ing frames of landing lag and nerfed the shine like really?
This is so stupid

Have you actually played with it? It's 7 frames (from 3) in almost all situations

And shine is far from bad:

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Have you actually played with it? It's 7 frames (from 3) in almost all situations

And shine is far from bad:

Is it only 20 frames when you land and bounce off the stage or anytime you end firefox very close to the stage?

 

[prem]

Is it only 20 frames when you land and bounce off the stage or anytime you end firefox very close to the stage?

just test it out like this. jump off the stage so tthat you are barely above the ledge and fire fox. one time go towards the middle of the stage and notice what fox's animation is before he hits the ground (dont aim towards the ground just go straight). then do the same thing except go really high. assuming you went high enough youll notice fox will do some skydiving-esque freefall pose. if fox ends up in that freefall pose before he hits the ground its 7 frames as opposed to 20

 

[CyberZixx]

I honestly feel like his recovery was not nerfed enough. I would of gave him pal firefox and added more lag than 7 frames.

 

[EpixAura]

I think the recovery nerf is pretty reasonable. 3 -> 7 frames of lag is hardly anything to cry over. The extra landing lag from special fall means recovering high is a terrible option in a lot of situations now, though. Jab nerf is also quite fair, although I'll admit to being pretty upset over it.

I'm iffy about the changes to aerial shine. Obviously, shine is an absurd move, and this change isn't particularly drastic, but it's incredibly controversial to tweak. I would've expected reduced knockback growth on Uair or more endlag on Usmash instead of shine changes. Personally, I've even disagreed with the decision to remove the 1 invincibility frame from shine way back when (1 frame is actually pretty big in shield pressure scenarios. I feel like this discourages more aggressive play). All this aside, I think the Fox changes are fine. He'll still be a strong character, albeit not the generally agreed upon #1. I think it's very likely that spot will be going to Marth, though.

 

[Tomaster]

Have you actually played with it? It's 7 frames (from 3) in almost all situations

And shine is far from bad:

People are gonna be upset when their character gets nerfed.. Nothing you can do about it. I think you did a good job and im gonna keep maining fox since the nerfs didn't affect him much and he's still a solid character. Also thanks for wario-man, best thing in the update.

 

[Yallo42]

Does anyone else think it's weird that the other spacies didn't get recovery nerfs?

 

[The Baron]

Does anyone else think it's weird that the other spacies didn't get recovery nerfs?

Wolf's recovery already had **** tons of Landing lag and falco has a really short fuse so i would think that there would be no reason to. This patch basically put fox's recovery on theres. Arguably. It's still better than wolves but falco you could argue about

 

[leelue]

Personally, I've even disagreed with the decision to remove the 1 invincibility frame from shine way back when (1 frame is actually pretty big in shield pressure scenarios. I feel like this discourages more aggressive play).

The move would still hit in all situations it would have before. Removing the invincibility only means you can also get hit on that frame when you hit your opponent and trade.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

just give fox shine back please thats it

 

[Kapapanerp]

just give fox shine back please thats it

Lol, it was never taken away.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

Lol, it was never taken away.

lol, yes it was

 

[Kapapanerp]

lol, yes it was

You're free to be wrong.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

You're free to be wrong.

kk

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

you really report me for spam?

 

[Strong Badam]

you really report me for spam?

Nope, I happened to read the thread and noticed the spam and dealt with it accordingly. Then you double posted. Cmon buddy, forum etiquette isn't that hard.

 

[Greed-checkTheTek]

Nope, I happened to read the thread and noticed the spam and dealt with it accordingly. Then you double posted. Cmon buddy, forum etiquette isn't that hard.

ok

 

[Yallo42]

Nope, I happened to read the thread and noticed the spam and dealt with it accordingly. Then you double posted. Cmon buddy, forum etiquette isn't that hard.

@ Kapapanerp was obviously trolling why wasn't he reported

 

[Kuya the Red]

Changing the shine in anyway is pretty ridiculous. I feel like they are getting carried away with PM "balancing" All you have to do is make all viable melee characters the same, all non viable melee characters buffed, and Brawl/Misc characters get buffed so they can compete with the other melee veterans. It's extremely controversial to even touch something as iconic as Fox/Falco shine, Marth ken combo, Falco Pillars, etc. The fixed knockback, frame 1 and jump cancelling are the shines biggest features. PMBR is taking too many liberties. I hardly liked their recent update (everyone lives past 150% and games take 6 mins on average), but this is just bad now. Sucks cause i really liked PM and i always was that person that made others try it. Did my best to make "melee only" players give it a chance, but if radical decisions are being made like this, I can no longer defend PM. Good luck in the future cause it's not looking good now.

 

[FlashingFire]

Changing the shine in anyway is pretty ridiculous. I feel like they are getting carried away with PM "balancing" All you have to do is make all viable melee characters the same, all non viable melee characters buffed, and Brawl/Misc characters get buffed so they can compete with the other melee veterans. It's extremely controversial to even touch something as iconic as Fox/Falco shine, Marth ken combo, Falco Pillars, etc. The fixed knockback, frame 1 and jump cancelling are the shines biggest features. PMBR is taking too many liberties. I hardly liked their recent update (everyone lives past 150% and games take 6 mins on average), but this is just bad now. Sucks cause i really liked PM and i always was that person that made others try it. Did my best to make "melee only" players give it a chance, but if radical decisions are being made like this, I can no longer defend PM. Good luck in the future cause it's not looking good now.

I think you're either overreacting, misinterpreting PM's goals, or both.

For starters, the PMDT already tried buffing characters to 3.02 Fox's level and things got really crazy. The options required to put other characters on equal footing with Fox can become ridiculous - that power creep is essentially what triggered the fat-trimming and design changes that were 3.5's main features.

Now, about Shine. Yes, this move is iconic. Yes, changing it can be controversial. However, those things are ultimately irrelevant if you're trying to make balance decisions. In its original form, Shine happens to be a frame 1 intangible full-body hitbox with set knockback that is jump-cancellable on frame 4 and has a downward knockback angle that can KO characters at absurdly low percents. This tool also functions incredibly well with Fox's mobility and combos from and into a ton of his moves. That is monumentally difficult to balance around, especially when there is pressure to leave the move alone and resort to other measures like giving characters overcentralizing 3.02-level options.

So what is Shine now? Only a 1-frame full body hitbox that is jump-cancellable on frame 4 and functions identically to Melee while Fox is grounded. In the air it now has a knockback growth curve and a shallow angle instead of a downward one. This is still an incredible tool, but now it's not entirely absurd.

I hope I don't have to explain why measures were taken to remove Sakurai combos and make jab > Up Smash harder. Even Lucky agrees that those are good changes.

Fox is still Fox, but he's not exempt from fat-trimming. Plenty of other characters have undergone harsher nerfs.

 

[Kuya the Red]

I think you're either overreacting, misinterpreting PM's goals, or both.

For starters, the PMDT already tried buffing characters to 3.02 Fox's level and things got really crazy. The options required to put other characters on equal footing with Fox can become ridiculous - that power creep is essentially what triggered the fat-trimming and design changes that were 3.5's main features.

Now, about Shine. Yes, this move is iconic. Yes, changing it can be controversial. However, those things are ultimately irrelevant if you're trying to make balance decisions. In its original form, Shine happens to be a frame 1 intangible full-body hitbox with set knockback that is jump-cancellable on frame 4 and has a downward knockback angle that can KO characters at absurdly low percents. This tool also functions incredibly well with Fox's mobility and combos from and into a ton of his moves. That is monumentally difficult to balance around, especially when there is pressure to leave the move alone and resort to other measures like giving characters overcentralizing 3.02-level options.

So what is Shine now? Only a 1-frame full body hitbox that is jump-cancellable on frame 4 and functions identically to Melee while Fox is grounded. In the air it now has a knockback growth curve and a shallow angle instead of a downward one. This is still an incredible tool, but now it's not entirely absurd.

I hope I don't have to explain why measures were taken to remove Sakurai combos and make jab > Up Smash harder. Even Lucky agrees that those are good changes.

Fox is still Fox, but he's not exempt from fat-trimming. Plenty of other characters have undergone harsher nerfs.

At the moment melee is incredibly unbalanced, but it's far more preferred over PM and this will only seal the deal. If PM is looking to make an entirely new game then its doing it well, but right now there's nothing here I would care for more than melee. The character changes are too much to entice people to look at this game competitively. Melee isnt by any means balanced, but its not going to fluctuate based on character win rate and as such has a more reliable means of being competitive. I'd rather study and perfect a single character rather than switch mains over and over like i've done with PM due to characters changing too much.

Yea shine being iconic shouldnt get in the way of balancing. that would go for any other game, but this one. Like making mario not have his fireball, or CF his falcon punch. I Understand that they aren't REMOVING the shine. but if it isnt the same as melee, then what are we playing? A more balanced version of melee? no one wants to see a character they liked in Melee not function the same as he once did in melee if he was successful. It only deters people from playing it. PMBR shouldnt take these types of liberties when melee isnt unpopular in the first place.

I understand other people may have different opinions, I just hope mine gets heard. Whether or not it was taken is their choice. At least 3.6 is in beta and not actually confirmed.

 

[FlashingFire]

It's fine if you prefer Melee. Melee is super fun, and its lack of hardly any change in 15 years has led to the development of a healthy, intricate metagame. Just please understand that PM's design goals seem to be different than what you want out of this game.

 

[Chainz]

So let me get this straight. you guys first nerf the up-smash, now you messin with the shine. c'mon now really? Werent most of the match-ups a pain enough as it was?

And what about the trigger-happy pigeon? How come he still the same?

 

[Ghetto Blush]

anyone else having problems thunder's comboing now?