Fortress | Sveet
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fighting puff on dreamland as fox is much different than fighting peach on dreamland as fox.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
MarsFool!
Smash Lord
Guys (Falco Dude), Fox already has good stage control in both matches on smaller stages as it is. DL just gives him even more room to run around and control. You dont kill people with shines unless theyre off the stage anyway. So why not consider the fact he can have a platform within perfect height of jumping away from either of these characters? Its really hard stop fox there...
JPOBS
Smash Hero
foxlisk hit it on the head imo.
killing jiggs on DL actually becomes a MAJOR problem as opposed to other stages. being unable to combo upthrow upair to death makes landing any sort of consistent killing move on her ridiculously hard.
literally, she goes from realistically dieing at 60% (pre-grab) on most stages, to living till 150% easily
meanwhile she still maintains her ability to kill at any percent from any mistake, and edgeguard like a champ.
i do like it vs peach a lot though.
ruby calm down...
killing jiggs on DL actually becomes a MAJOR problem as opposed to other stages. being unable to combo upthrow upair to death makes landing any sort of consistent killing move on her ridiculously hard.
literally, she goes from realistically dieing at 60% (pre-grab) on most stages, to living till 150% easily
meanwhile she still maintains her ability to kill at any percent from any mistake, and edgeguard like a champ.
i do like it vs peach a lot though.
ruby calm down...
Tomacawk
Smash Master
everybody has good points. I assume the top foxes think that dreamland is better for fox but I pick stages based on how I'm feeling in the set about my opponent's style and how it matches against mine almost as much as I do based on how the matchup is there. I may go to dreamland against peach or puff, I may not. Depends if I'm playing like a polar bair
run on ftw
run on ftw
unknown522
Some guy
- failing combos
- Poor approaching
- missing moves altogether
- failing tech skill
- no shine OoS
- jumping too much
- failing tech chases
- PP failed many many free edgeguards, but it didn't matter.
Lucky played really bad that game, though I was cheering for PP at that tourney.
yes, FD is a stupid neutral, but I don't think it warrants being a CP stage.
But yeah, the front DI to counter fox's u-tilt only works if they get hit while they are on the ground. The u-tilt has to different properties, and the good one happens while they opponent is in the air. There are ways to make it work on the ground, but it's a pain in the ***.
yes, M2K is stupidly amazing at character dittos.
what's wrong with stadium?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
"Fair" as in, the characters who suffer the most (Fox and Falco) don't get brought down nearly far enough to where they are having problems winning tournaments. I'm not saying FD-only is that great of an idea, but I feel like FD is definitely a neutral stage. No one REALLY gets ******.
I disagree on the gameplay on FD being stale btw. FD is the stage on which camping is the LEAST viable. I'd say the stages with the most stale gameplay are stages like Poke Floats assuming the players aren't ******* around, haha.
I guess the combos get stale, especially in some matchups like Peach vs. space animal, but I think the overall gameplay on FD is pretty interesting for the most part.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
This is a great debate. I've always felt that the the run and gun strategy (100% camp, no approach, no pitbull mode for low percent kills) is sometimes better than approaching her at all. Camping with Fox is amazing, we know that. But we also know that there comes a time when you have to get that grab. Having the ability to know when uair starts killing and having the skill to get that grab is vital in the match-up. Puff's defense however makes none of that easy. If you miss an lcancel on her shield, thats your stock. If you slightly mis-space a grab, thats your stock (happened to me last stock vs. Darc at RoM).
Thats why Dreamland is good. With astute manipulation of the stage, you will NEVER be caught. That's a monstrous advantage in a match-up where:
A - You have a projectile that goes across whole stages
B - Your opponent doesn't, and relies on you to run into their keep-out moves
C - Your opponent can kill you off any grab with little to no technical difficulty (d.i. dependent, but still a risk)
D - You have quick kill moves you can move with which, if used intelligently, you can use to poke without actually putting yourself at risk (Bair, utilt uair, jab (visually confirm the hit, then usmash)
Even if you can't get those quick kills, who cares? Time is on your side. As long as you know what to do when Jiggs flails her appendages in your general direction, you'll be fine.
I don't advocate this as being the best strategy, but its a good one. Especially vs. some of the better Puffs, when getting in feels an incessant uphill battle.
edit: If you were talking about camping pertaining to Fox specifically, then most of this can be ignored. I think he can camp for the grab just like the other big players can, its just more match-up dependent than say, Sheik.
When adding Yoshi's and FoD to the comparison, I can't imagine FD being the stage where camping is the least viable. Out of all the neutral stages, it is the stage that offers the most reward for successfully turtling up. While it may not be the largest stage in terms of sheer size, it provides enough room to be more than a simple annoyance in those match-ups where a single grab can take a stock. The characters that have the ability to camp well (Falcon, Marth for example) have ample room to run around and avoid direct confrontation. That camp-for-a-grab strategy will never go out of style on FD. Same goes for Peach, ICs, Sheik in certain match-ups, Doc/Mario, and the list goes on.
unknown522
Some guy
camping peach on FD is the only way to win (assuming that the peach is good).
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I think taking advantage of Peach's limited horizontal mobility (to get grabs and drills) and slow startup on fair (can be punished with nair into a lot of stuff. See M2K's Fox vs Armada for good examples of this) is a better way to win... Well, that depends on your definition of "camping." If in your mind "not rushing in and nairing" = "camping" then sure, I guess you have to camp Peach to win, yeah.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
The risk/reward to flat out running into Peach is slanted in her favour. You don't want to **** up and be in her grab range on that stage. Regardless of a player's definition or understanding of what camping is, approaching Peach without good reason is suicide. (At least vs. the good ones)
Any lead you had instantly disappears because of that stupid CG. I agree with Toph about choosing your openings wisely though. If you see something you can interrupt, or a spot you are sure can yield a free hit, get your *** in their before she puts up her wall of priority again. The key against characters like Peach is to only go in when you punish something, or when you notice a moment of predictability. Essentially, you're only sacrificing your position and exerting effort when you KNOW you will land that hit. If you try to create random openings in her defense you'll get swatted out over and over again. Most Fox players (myself included) just get frustrated and keep trying to break through the defense. Eventually, one of those swats will knock you down and lead to a grab or edge-guard scenario -> GG
Any lead you had instantly disappears because of that stupid CG. I agree with Toph about choosing your openings wisely though. If you see something you can interrupt, or a spot you are sure can yield a free hit, get your *** in their before she puts up her wall of priority again. The key against characters like Peach is to only go in when you punish something, or when you notice a moment of predictability. Essentially, you're only sacrificing your position and exerting effort when you KNOW you will land that hit. If you try to create random openings in her defense you'll get swatted out over and over again. Most Fox players (myself included) just get frustrated and keep trying to break through the defense. Eventually, one of those swats will knock you down and lead to a grab or edge-guard scenario -> GG
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yup, I agree.
it sounds like when i disagreed about you saying "that matchup is mostly about camping," it's just that you have a looser definition of what entails "camping" than I do
Fortress | Sveet
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You guys are so smart.
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Mango MaNg0 shield pressure Miley Cyrus
And to make this post relevant, it's hard to DI when you're pressing down b.
And to make this post relevant, it's hard to DI when you're pressing down b.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
Mhm, I mean, these are all valid points, but I think that it's actually easier to win against puff with a more aggressive strategy. I think that for a few reasons. First off, any time you're under pressure and your opponent is not, he gains a psychological edge. So if you plan on running away and camping the whole match you're immediately surrendering that, which is probably ill-advised.
Secondly, because stages have edges, you have to 'cross over' puff over and over again throughout the whole match. Yes, this is somewhat easier on DL than on other stages, but still, you're just lasering and occasionally bairing her as you run around, and if she lands a hit while you're trying to cross over she's likely to get a solid combo out of it and possibly even kill you. This skews the payout in her favour: everytime she messes up she eats a few more lasers, but every time you mess up you eat a lot of damage or possibly a kill.
Thirdly, if you are more aggressive - now im not saying rushdown a puff player, but keep her on her toes - you get much more reward. The risks are the same, but you have a higher reward, because you can get uthrow uairs more frequently and so on. Yes, you're more likely to get hit by an aerial if you're closer to her, but she's more likely to get hit by your aerials (or grabbed) too.
I think that camping is an acceptable strategy if you're very good at camping, but i think the strategy of camping against puff has been hugely overhyped by the community.
For the record, my strategy against puff on DL is generally:
1) Play normally until uthrow -> uair stops comboing (90-100%)
2) Laser until ~120-130%
3) fish for bairs
where if I land a grab after 1 i'll try dthrow or bthrow and see if I can make something happen. so I do camp somewhat, I just don't think it's optimal over the whole game.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
In my opinion camping them gives YOU the psychological edge because you have them in hot pursuit of something that they should never be able to close in on; their impatience and frustration leads to openings.
dear fox lisk,
how many top level jiggs have you ever played???
how many local/regional level jiggs have you played???
what sort of tournament experience do you have??
sincerely,
brookman
I highly recommend that, if you havent already, watch mango vs hbox from apex and all of PP's vids vs. hbox which can be found on the first page of fox specific.
how many top level jiggs have you ever played???
how many local/regional level jiggs have you played???
what sort of tournament experience do you have??
sincerely,
brookman
I highly recommend that, if you havent already, watch mango vs hbox from apex and all of PP's vids vs. hbox which can be found on the first page of fox specific.
Banks
Smash Hero
no fair bro
oh and i'd say being aggressive with anyone is a sure way to do bad vs a puff at equal or better skill.
The best I've ever done vs darc was when i didn't approach at all and reacted to when I thought he was coming toward me
also I saw forward beat him by running away, lasering and utilting (lolololol)
if you approach like a madman and mess up you run the risk of dying quickly, in a variety of ways
at least, that's my exp from playing a jiggs better than I, certainly it changes if you are better than or even equally skilled. (altho jiggs players in general are probably better at punishing blind aggression than breaking a smart defense)
-Darc-
Heir to the Monado
This.
To beat Jiggs you must camp the hell out of her. It works.
Them being aggressive just makes me happy.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Full hopped retreating bairs are pretty good vs Jiggs if she tries to challenge you, and her spacing isn't on point.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
DI upthrow isnt even hard so im not impressed by that statstic.
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Shine tech chase is god tier against jiggs
I just don't . . . think you have any credentials to say this.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
you guys are stupid. im not saying rush down the jiggs. i inf act explicitly said not to. i mean that playing as campy as possible is not the best option, it's better to put some pressure on her.
and yes, ive watched mango & pp playing against hbox. they're both fairly confrontational about it.
and yes, ive watched mango & pp playing against hbox. they're both fairly confrontational about it.
Banks
Smash Hero
hey Darc, remember how Forward used dair > utilt to kill you, and just lasered when not doing that? does that work? or was it just because it was a while ago
oh and for the record, standing still with marth and jabbing/utilting > jigglypuff. totally took a game off darc doing just that. right Darc. darc namesearcher darc. dustin hayes
oh and for the record, standing still with marth and jabbing/utilting > jigglypuff. totally took a game off darc doing just that. right Darc. darc namesearcher darc. dustin hayes
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Let me address this stuff first. D.i.ing the uthrow is REALLY easy. No decent player should have a problem with that.
A big reason many of the good players get caught by uthrow rest is because they screw up. No offense to Zoso or Swift, but I don't expect to jump in and mess up on Jiggs shield. Maybe Swift does. Maybe he jumps in and thinks he might screw up so he holds left. I don't.
But when it happens space animal players lose stocks. Not because they're incapable of d.i.ing the throw, but because they shouldn't be messing up lcancels and do. If I can see that I've clearly misspaced something and grab is coming, I'll d.i. it.
The moral of the story: It's hard to see mistakes coming.
All it takes Jiggs is one press of the A button and your stock is as good as gone from that point. Hold shield, wait for opponent spacie to **** up techskill, take stock.
This is assuming the player in question has any problems at all psychologically. In an equal comparison, if a player was able to keep a level head his camping would undoubtedly prevail. Theory-crafting aside, camping is the better strategy. That's the facts; that's how it is on paper. Regardless of what edge you 'think' you have on your opponent, playing aggressively doesn't pay. The risk of getting grabbed isn't usually worth what you get from your grab. (You can make all that damage up by shooting lasers and risking nothing) The only time being aggro should even become an option, is when uthrow uair starts killing.
There a a billion alternatives to crossing over her. Camping her doesn't mean you always have to sacrifice position. If you can hold your ground with bairs and DDing (still not approaching at this point) then why would you try to 'cross-over'? People associate camping with ALWAYS being on the move and trying to get out of the way. Whiff punishing with well placed bairs and shield, blocking things and WDing to safety, blocking things and jumping on platforms to safety, platform camping with high priority moves - all these options fall into 'camping'. You're still playing defensively, and not carrying out any plans to actually move forward.FoxLisk said:
When a player gets good at camping, you'll get hit MUCH less. When that player has more experience, eating damage for mistakes won't be a huge issue either. For clarification, by damage you mean uthrow rest right? Camping is likelier to get you out of damage situations than thrust you into them.
How are the risks the same? By not approaching her you cut the possibility of her hitting you in half. Jiggs isn't a character that approaches her opponents, so there's not going to be much conflict. Between your lasering and bairing, what exactly are you risking?FoxLisk said:
lolFoxLisk said:
Uthrow works up until 111% as a true combo. Connecting with both hits (or only the second) is possible at that percent.FoxLisk said:
JPOBS
Smash Hero
regardless of my "credentials" theres nothing intrisically difficult about DI'ing the upthrow, especially if you have jiggs experience.
and you talk a big game, but you havent been to a big tourny since 2007 :/
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Raynex: Uthrow uair combos until 111%???? Are you sure about this? Are you talking about the Jigglypuff not DI'ing here, or what?
Tomacawk
Smash Master
I think puff actually has to DI to hit at that high of a %, otherwise she gets too high in the air to hit
regardless for 99% of foxes to combo uthrow uair it stops around 90%, I would say that most probably can't get it after 75 or 80
regardless for 99% of foxes to combo uthrow uair it stops around 90%, I would say that most probably can't get it after 75 or 80
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Kirbykaze, Unknown and I have sat down and tried this **** endlessly in training mode. The highest possible we were able to get it was 111%, and that was with behind d.i., the hardest to follow. It worked with neutral d.i. as well.
It shouldn't be too big a leap of faith to assume it works on away d.i.
Trying it out for yourself is the best proof. Start from 100% and keep going up.
Pretty sure if you set the CPU Jiggs to evade and dash grab (has to be this grab specifically for some reason) while she's waddling away she will d.i. away from you. If you grab her right near the edge she'll d.i. behind you. Unknown can correct me but I'm half-sure thats how it works.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I feel like there is some otherworldly power preventing me from correctly diing Jiggs uthrow when i play a spacie.
I've been holding left/right before even getting grabbed and i still went straight up before.
'
Something I hear A LOT is "Rubyiris, your DI sucks."
What I don't understand is how people get their DI so good. You don't get the maximum effect unless you're preemptively holding the direction, yet people say how "easy" it is to react to things, such as grabs, yet puff's uthrow is almost instantanious, and peach's fthrow is really fast.
@Brookman:
Just as an fyi, you don't need "credentials" to be right. I haven't been to a tournament outside of Arizona, but I have a decently high level of smash knowledge.
The only things credentials brings with you is making it easier for others to take you for your word, and as a side effect, makes people believe you, even if you're flat-out wrong.
I've been holding left/right before even getting grabbed and i still went straight up before.
'Something I hear A LOT is "Rubyiris, your DI sucks."
What I don't understand is how people get their DI so good. You don't get the maximum effect unless you're preemptively holding the direction, yet people say how "easy" it is to react to things, such as grabs, yet puff's uthrow is almost instantanious, and peach's fthrow is really fast.
@Brookman:
Just as an fyi, you don't need "credentials" to be right. I haven't been to a tournament outside of Arizona, but I have a decently high level of smash knowledge.
The only things credentials brings with you is making it easier for others to take you for your word, and as a side effect, makes people believe you, even if you're flat-out wrong.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Tight. Will experiment. Thanks!
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Anytime.
I have a random question I'd like to ask.
Out of curiousity, why'd you move to Japan? I've got to say, what an amazing culture to submerge yourself in.
aim is rayn1704, add me up if the answer goes beyond your comfort zone on the boards.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
added, just 'cause.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I landed an internship here in software development, for 1 year. I'll be here until... well, Genesis 2, actually, haha. I haven't actually graduated from college yet, so when I go back to school in autumn 2011 I'll have one more year before I graduate.
It's a crazy place lol. Really pretty country though. I don't live in the big city, I live in a rural part of Honshu that puts me in a good spot to do a lot of sightseeing, so I've gotten to see a lot of "old Japan" so far. And I've been in a good spot to continue actively playing Melee too, which worked out really well.
When I go back, I'm gonna miss the food.
Yeah, it's not that personal so I just posted it here. but I might randomly aim you anyway sometime :D
