Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[trahhSTEEZY]

Against Samus low nairs and spaced bairs off or through platforms are good though.

TLDR;

jk i love your perception on this game. thanks for the tipsies.

 

[omgwtfToph]

man, it's so gay not having perfect techskill all the time

 

[Brookman]

agreed .

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

that's the beauty of getting so good at it though.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Speaking of fighting and melee, here's a video Rohins just linked me.

Pretty funny, and also worth a thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU


Edit: Btw, something you guys might wanna help me experiment with.
This works with many characters who have a decent running speed. When I knock down an opponent and he misses his tech, but I'm not able to reach him fast enough to just hit him off the ground before he can input something...

I used to just run up to them and stand over them, and get ready to react for the stand up, the getup attack, and the rolls to either side. (example: after the uthrow at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmvbCMyvUCI#t=1m14s) When I'm feeling wide awake (not tired) and my reaction time is good, this works great for me. but I realized you can just crouch over your opponent, and then you get this set of options:

- if they stand up, you shield->grab or JC grab (so you don't jab by accident, since you were crouching)
- if they getup attack, you can dash forward and grab, or even dash forward and usmash
- if they roll away, you just run to follow them and JC grab
- if they roll behind you, (and this is the one i'm having a little trouble adapting to atm) you dash forward for a split second and "dashdance" back at them to grab them

it more or less makes the getup attack a "free" option, so you only really have 3 options to look for. I'm still getting used to the option where they roll behind me, but it seems really viable in a LOT of situations.

 

[Winston]

I crouch to cover the lying on the ground options a lot, but I'm never able to get the roll back.

I guess I'll work on the slight dashdance method. It should be doable, and if it is it should play an important part of the perfect techchasing I expect us to be doing like 6 months from now. haha

That reminded me of something that's slightly similar. What do you guys think of this:

When they're on the edge and you're at low percents, space yourself close to the edge and crouch. If they attack or get up or whatever you can do an attack/shine/whatever. If they roll past you you can react to it with wavedash backwards and waveshine -> something. (obviously only on characters you can waveshine combo).

I'm sure this is terrible/not very useful/not the most efficient thing to do for some reason but you guys need to explain to me why.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi and ICs are the only characters who can't really CC a getup attack -> dash grab. They slide too far. But they can wavedash -> grab with precision so it's all good.

 

[Lovage]

man, it's so gay not having perfect techskill all the time

yeah fox is a piece of ****

 

[RaynEX]

Speaking of fighting and melee, here's a video Rohins just linked me.

Pretty funny, and also worth a thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU


Edit: Btw, something you guys might wanna help me experiment with.
This works with many characters who have a decent running speed. When I knock down an opponent and he misses his tech, but I'm not able to reach him fast enough to just hit him off the ground before he can input something...

I used to just run up to them and stand over them, and get ready to react for the stand up, the getup attack, and the rolls to either side. (example: after the uthrow at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmvbCMyvUCI#t=1m14s) When I'm feeling wide awake (not tired) and my reaction time is good, this works great for me. but I realized you can just crouch over your opponent, and then you get this set of options:

- if they stand up, you shield->grab or JC grab (so you don't jab by accident, since you were crouching)
- if they getup attack, you can dash forward and grab, or even dash forward and usmash
- if they roll away, you just run to follow them and JC grab
- if they roll behind you, (and this is the one i'm having a little trouble adapting to atm) you dash forward for a split second and "dashdance" back at them to grab them

it more or less makes the getup attack a "free" option, so you only really have 3 options to look for. I'm still getting used to the option where they roll behind me, but it seems really viable in a LOT of situations.

Good post. Many people forget about this trick.

This is an incredibly popular Sheik and Falcon tactic. Characters that rely on techchasing especially, use this to cut out an option (get-up attack) at lower percents. You're right on the money.

Problem is it gets less free once you can't CC anymore. At higher percents the option tree changes. There are two different ways you can approach this.

Remember (as Toph mentioned): Ideally, you want to crouch over them at low percents so the get-up attack option is auto-covered. Dash either back or forward to cover the other options. Get-up in place can be covered from crouch and no tech can be hit in a variety of ways. This is the core of the setup.

At higher percents:

1. Instead of crouching, shield over their body. You can grab any get-up attempt or attack from where you are, and cover either direction with WD oos -> follow-up of choice. This is obviously harder than Toph's initial model, but its value comes from the fact that it works at any percent. A failsafe if you will.

2. This is the standard method of techchasing; I still think its worth mentioning though. Stand over your opponents body and DON'T shield. This might give the opponent the impression that its safe to get-up attack. On your end, you have to react and shield. If you get antsy and shield before they do anything, its all good because it recycles back to example 1. You're basically standing over them to intimidate them. If you always shield after a knockdown they'll know to NOT get-up attack. This MAY help coax out an offensive response from your grounded opponent.


In summary:

Low percents: Crouch over opponent -> react

High percents: Shield over opponent -> react
Stand over opponent and do nothing -> react (watch for get-up attack)

 

[omgwtfToph]

When they're on the edge and you're at low percents, space yourself close to the edge and crouch. If they attack or get up or whatever you can do an attack/shine/whatever. If they roll past you you can react to it with wavedash backwards and waveshine -> something. (obviously only on characters you can waveshine combo).

I'm sure this is terrible/not very useful/not the most efficient thing to do for some reason but you guys need to explain to me why.

Against space animals, ledgedash makes that not work... Sheik could just jump off the ledge, slap you, and go back to the ledge, or ledgedash past you... or jump past you and do something scary like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILgpiojn8w#t=1m16s LOL. Marth can do a low nair and then roll away, or even dair and then grab you (dair makes cc not work)

Puff can just float away and do whatever.

so yeah, like every character has a lot of ways to get around crouching at the ledge basically.

@Raynex I have never been able to successfully react to a roll behind me with WD backward out of shield to grab, which is the main reason I was like "omfg you can dashdance slightly from a crouch to cover that option which is way easier." But yeah good stuff haha.



would anyone happen to know roughly how high of a % Fox can CC getup attacks before being knocked away? i guess i could go test it later but im lazy >_>;

 

[RaynEX]

Sheik can WD with invincibility and grab you. Fox and Falco can do the same and maintain invincibility through their next move, regardless of what you do. Crouching at the edge isn't that bad, just make sure you watch for the grabs against the characters that like to gimp. Remember that the threat of losing your stock remains, and that being at the edge vs. certain people isn't always a good thing. For the most part Gustav, there isn't anything wrong with crouching near the edge to spook them.

Toph, rule of thumb is that you can CC most get-up attacks till at LEAST 50. But as you know all characters have their own get-up attacks so it depends on which one you're trying to CC. Pretty sure that some (like Falcon's where he does that B-boy kick on both sides) have above average knockback, so watch out.

 

[Brookman]

I love Michael Jai White!!

you guys see Black Dynamite?? It's a really great parody/tribute of the 70's black detective flicks like shaft. He's in some other films that I really adore. Great actor and Martial Artist.

 

[Wenbobular]

Poor Kels ...

 

[MarsFool!]

Black Dynamite is ****.

Who is going to pound? I need to play with you people >_<

 

[Palpi]

I am! I am actually going to enter aswell! I am going to play EVERYONE!!

 

[RaynEX]

Pound is comeback season. I've been in hiding for like 4 months in anticipation for it. We should steal a setup for Fox boards only.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm down for that.

 

[Kanelol]

what the ****

 

[Winston]

Does Sheik get the full 7 frames of invincibility she needs to grab you before you can shine her?

And I wouldn't try it vs space animals cause they don't get waveshined anyway.

Vs ledgehop aerial regrabs can't you cc and jump out and shine them before they regrab? CCing is pretty good.

About the techchase, I thought that most getup attacks get CCed up to like 80+ percent. So in general it should work.

 

[ChivalRuse]

CCing the ledgehop fair -> regrab might work assuming you're under like 30%, but why CC when you could bair out of shield instead?

 

[MarsFool!]

Upsmash out of shield always ****s sheik up too. They always panic when they dont hit confirm and go for the ledge.


@Pound 5: Ill bring a tv if I have to, all fox boards side tourney xD

 

[RaynEX]

Does Sheik get the full 7 frames of invincibility she needs to grab you before you can shine her?

And I wouldn't try it vs space animals cause they don't get waveshined anyway.

Vs ledgehop aerial regrabs can't you cc and jump out and shine them before they regrab? CCing is pretty good.

About the techchase, I thought that most getup attacks get CCed up to like 80+ percent. So in general it should work.

I don't think she gets full invincibility even if she does it perfectly, but it feels like it sometimes.

No point in taking the hit from the ledgehop aerial. You can usually avoid that situation and dash attack them before they re-grab, then shine. Or block the aerial, WD oos shine, or bair like ChivalRuse said. Giving them free damage like that when they are already cornered doesn't seem worth it. There are safer ways to punish stuff from the ledge.

80% seems pretty high. I'm pretty sure that number doesn't always hold true. Isn't CCing effectiveness character specific too? Like Samus can do it for longer or whatever? lol

 

[mers]

I don't think she gets full invincibility even if she does it perfectly, but it feels like it sometimes.

80% seems pretty high. I'm pretty sure that number doesn't always hold true. Isn't CCing effectiveness character specific too? Like Samus can do it for longer or whatever? lol

I believe that Sheik can waveland to invincible ftilt (not certain though), so that makes me think she could probably grab too. Does anyone know how much faster her ftilt is than her grab?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

RaynEX I want MMs at MI next weekend. Dollar by dollar.

 

[KirbyKaze]

k you're talking about sheik

and frame data

it's my time to shine

anyway, if sheik is perfect she gets 10 frames of actionable love (meaning after the waveland lag she has up to 10 frames of lovin' for you)

grab comes out in 7

HOWEVER THAT ASSUMES PERFECTLY ULTIMATE GREAT MOTH. and USUALLY sheik only gets 5-7 because of human failure.

but 5 is enough because then she can d-smash / tilt and get the invincible foot of the d-smash or get a tilt going because tilts are out in 5.

SO

you have to respect her slide because it's fabulous and stuff









...

and then bair her

****ing unknown522

:fuuu:

edit: teczero is also hella gay with that sort of thing



but yeah jumping or waiting on a plat outside her ledgehop fair/uair range can cause her some grief because you can then cover a lot of what she does

 

[JPOBS]

i lost to yu-gi-oh reference.

 

[Summonedfist]

he used like season 1-2 references -_-

who didn't watch ygo when it FIRST came out? lol

 

[JPOBS]

i said "lost to"

meaning, they were hilarious and made me lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

So here's a new topic of discussion. I remember someone saying Raynex only plays like, once every few weeks now or something???

So I've been thinking recently about the optimum amount of time invested in, say, a week, to get better. Ideally, all other things aside, how often do you feel that someone should try to play to improve? Do you think once or twice a week suffices for someone seriously trying to improve?

In some other fields of discipline and even some other video games it's not uncommon for people to practice every day. (When I say "practice" I mean play with other people.) What do you guys think about this?

I have two conflicting theories... One goes, if you're good at consciously recognizing your mistakes and you can learn from different situations, then it helps to play as often as possible. By this model, even playing once a week isn't going to cut it.

The other theory goes, if you play too often, it's easy to get "burnt out" (your patterns start becoming stale) and playing once a week or so not only suffices, but is actually optimal since you can stay more flexible this way (provided that playing infrequently doesn't hurt your tech skill).

Thoughts?

 

[Summonedfist]

i said "lost to"

meaning, they were hilarious and made me lol

LOL my bad xD

 

[JPOBS]

Toph, im going to say that it honestly depends on the person.

and I know that seems like the generic, intermediate answer which doesnt commit me to an option, and doesnt really add anything to the discussion, but seriously I don't think theres a way to quantify an all encompassing, definitive answer which would hold true for everyone.

I think once you hit a certain level of technical prowess (being able to do exactly what you want without messing up), and general game knowledge, getting better from that point on has little correlation with how often you play imo.

tldr: the relationship between skill and practice time is very large at lower levels, but begins to taper off as you get better. The better you are, the less you need to play to stay good/improve.

 

[PK Webb]

any1 wanna direct a curious fox on how to land shine bairs or nairs =(. crap seems impossible for me unless its ganon

 

[RaynEX]

RaynEX I want MMs at MI next weekend. Dollar by dollar.

I'm down, but I'm not 100% confirmed yet. My birthday is on Dec. 17th, which I've booked off work. Not sure how they would feel if I booked off another weekend so suddenly within the same month. Schedule comes on Wednesday, so if by then I have no shifts on Saturday count me in.

moths and stuff

Great post. Lets all remember this the next time we try to hit Sheik point blank out of her ledge WD stuff. Invincible grabs and tilts are scary.

So here's a new topic of discussion. I remember someone saying Raynex only plays like, once every few weeks now or something???

So I've been thinking recently about the optimum amount of time invested in, say, a week, to get better. Ideally, all other things aside, how often do you feel that someone should try to play to improve? Do you think once or twice a week suffices for someone seriously trying to improve?

In some other fields of discipline and even some other video games it's not uncommon for people to practice every day. (When I say "practice" I mean play with other people.) What do you guys think about this?

I have two conflicting theories... One goes, if you're good at consciously recognizing your mistakes and you can learn from different situations, then it helps to play as often as possible. By this model, even playing once a week isn't going to cut it.

The other theory goes, if you play too often, it's easy to get "burnt out" (your patterns start becoming stale) and playing once a week or so not only suffices, but is actually optimal since you can stay more flexible this way (provided that playing infrequently doesn't hurt your tech skill).

Thoughts?

Its only been the last few months that I haven't seen KK/Unknown the Toronto scene much. I still play smash at least every other day (by myself) to keep my tech skill up. After 6 years of Fox and smash, I felt like I needed a break. Things were getting stale and I knew it wasn't my techskill. It was how I approached the game and what I was doing in my matches. I looked brainless and I was VERY disappointed with how devoid my game was of active thinking and intelligent play. I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's how I felt at the time.

Now that I'm playing more often the game feels so different. I agree with Jpobs assessment, in that it differs depending on the player. Taking a break couldn't have been a better decision for me.

If you want to get over a technical hump, you have to grind it out of your system. Practice until its mechanical and no longer an issue. For everything else, as long as you manage to get in games with people at least once a week you should be fine. Playing alone is great when you're starting off too.

Before I could do anything in this game, I actually had a training regimen. If I was going be playing by myself, I would pick one thing (i.e.: waveshining, SHDL) and practice that for 15-20 minutes within that hour or so of playtime. During that 15-20 min, I would also practice general movement, and try to mix in waveshines and SHDLs and reverse waveshines whenever possible.

In no more than a year they became such natural parts of my movement that all I had to do was apply them in the right situations and I was good. Fox is all about dat muscle memory. If you can find a way to sneak in a technique or two during random practice, you'll see noticeable improvement and soon be able to isolate it as a separate, mastered technique.

-it honestly depends on the person.

-I think once you hit a certain level of technical prowess (being able to do exactly what you want without messing up), and general game knowledge, getting better from that point on has little correlation with how often you play imo.

-The better you are, the less you need to play to stay good/improve.

I concur.

 

[KirbyKaze]

RaynEX is a master of subtlety. And only exaggerates a teensy weensy bit. Incidentally, I only like men in a friendly way. And play Zelda.

If you see / hear Sheik air-dodge because she does an imperfect waveland from the ledge, then you can usually assume your Bair will trump her action because that damned air-dodge eats invincibility like dingos in a maternity ward.

I practice every day but my Fox is garbage

 

[omgwtfToph]

****in dingos :<

and all right, that sort of echoes what I already sort of thought. I'll focus more on improving from each and every one of my mistakes, instead of struggling to fit more smashfests into a given week.

 

[PK Webb]

after u get that muscle memory down breaks do help. i tend to still practice techskill here and there but i play with ppl maybe 2x a week or 1x a week and i think thats enuff its quite easy to get burned out

 

[Brookman]

You can always expand your technical repertoire though.


just sayin'


I like raynex's tech skill, like, the tricks he used here were great


Armada's edge guard on fox is beast though.

 

[RaynEX]

RaynEX is a master of subtlety. And only exaggerates a teensy weensy bit. Incidentally, I only like men in a friendly way. And play Zelda.

Just spit it out already. Sarcasm sucks.

****in dingos :<

and all right, that sort of echoes what I already sort of thought. I'll focus more on improving from each and every one of my mistakes, instead of struggling to fit more smashfests into a given week.

after u get that muscle memory down breaks do help. i tend to still practice techskill here and there but i play with ppl maybe 2x a week or 1x a week and i think thats enuff its quite easy to get burned out

Keep at it guys.

Don't. stop. belieeeeeevin'

 

[omgwtfToph]

oh i actually practice tech skill almost daily haha. 10 minutes before i go to bed yo. it's calming, it's the time when my hands are the warmest in these cold winter months since i've been home from work/the arcade for a while, and i read a study that a given motor skill is most easily stored when it's used right before a long period of sleep

 

[unknown522]

Pound is comeback season. I've been in hiding for like 4 months in anticipation for it. We should steal a setup for Fox boards only.

since when do you read/watch soul eater?

also, camilo is over so practicing tech skill right now.