Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Palpi]

Jumping over them.

 

[Evoke]

I strangely enough never thought to do that. I won anyways though via laser camping.

 

[wardobuffalo]

can someone explain to me in how exactly do u DI ? are you supposed to use both analog and c-stick?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

There needs to be a video on DI'ing, i don't see anything on youtube, and a visualization example on DI'ng would help people tons.

Anyways, C-stick isn't mandatory in DI, it slightly adjusts your trajectory in the beginning of getting hit hard.

You most generally want to angle your analog stick PERPENDICULAR to the direction you get launched.

Basically your being launched up and to the right, at this point you want to DI up and to the left. unless you think you're going to die off the top of the stage, in that case you'd be DI'ng left and down instead.

i think? someone correct me if i'm (probably) wrong.

C-stick DI i can't really explain well. i'd have someone else help you there

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'm trying to pay attention to my opponents habits.

I'm just not very good at it.

I don't see how you got those points from Lovage's post. All I got from that post was what I was doing incorrectly. The guys awful at explaining things.

so if I said to you, for example "you have bad techskill," you would take that as "WOW YOU ARE SO MEAN" and not "ok, I should work on my techskill?"

you're... going to have a tough time in life, dude


Edit: Oh hey, so some tight **** I learned this weekend that I didn't know before. Maybe you guys already knew this stuff but I didn't LOL so I'll just go ahead and post it *shrug*

Gimping Falcon. Whenever I fthrow Falcon players off the stage, they always jump back with the knee, which I would always try to intercept in some way or another... ftilt, bairs, and it would never seem to work out. Apparently the best way to gimp the knee recovery is to fulljump and land on Falcon with a nair. This way, you don't trade, and you can just run off the stage and shine him for the stock. I think you might have enough time to do this after a waveshine -> dsmash, too (I'll have to try it some other time)

I got a really clutch gimp where I caught one of those knee recoveries with short hop fair (which didn't trade), jab, shine, too, but I dunno how reliable that is cuz I never had much success with bairs in the past. Fair does have a surprisingly good hitbox out front though, so I wouldn't be surprised if this works consistently.

Also, SDI'ing Falco combos on, say FD. Kou does this thing with spacies/Falcon where he puts his right palm on the control stick and shakes violently from up-left to up-right. It's good because you get sideways smash DI inputs to escape between dair->shine, and you also get upward smash DI inputs, which make it surprisingly weird for Falco to combo, because it makes Fox/Falcon fly just a little bit too high for Falco to combo a shine into a short hop dair, which is what he usually aims to do (shine, wavedash out, short hop dair or short hop another aerial at higher percents). So it makes your trajectory more like, say, Sheik's, which works really well.

I mean yeah it's ghetto as **** trying to escape a combo by mashing with your palm, but it works surprisingly well LOL.

 

[Lovage]

when it comes to fthrowing falcon, percent matters a whole lot for what options they have. i know it's obvious lol, but seriously a change in 3% makes a huge difference in how they can sweetspot the ledge with a doublejump, or if a ftilt/jab will force them to up+b or just make them grab the edge, stuff like that.

when you fthrow him in my experience a nair recovery is just as likely as a knee recovery, if it's a nair, you can CC the first hit and shine them (unless they space very well.) you can also try fthrow and usmash when they jump into you, it's much harder to time, will trade a lot, and is pretty risky, but if you can get it off cleanly you should be able to get a free shine.

i'd say the goal with fthrow gimps against falco/falcon is to force them to up+b under the stage, because as long as you time your moves right, a falco/falcon up+bing below you should be dead 100% of the time. so i'd recommend ppl focus on forcing their up+b, rather than killing them, to be the goal of a fthrow gimp.

once you get them to up+b below you, try to shine them quickly, but if for some reason you aren't in a great positon to do it (your move traded with theirs, they were at very low percent before you hit them, they had good di,) just do a drill to spike them really quick. fox recovers fast from this move so you should be able to drop down and shine afterward very easily.

 

[wardobuffalo]

There needs to be a video on DI'ing, i don't see anything on youtube, and a visualization example on DI'ng would help people tons.

Anyways, C-stick isn't mandatory in DI, it slightly adjusts your trajectory in the beginning of getting hit hard.

You most generally want to angle your analog stick PERPENDICULAR to the direction you get launched.

Basically your being launched up and to the right, at this point you want to DI up and to the left. unless you think you're going to die off the top of the stage, in that case you'd be DI'ng left and down instead.

i think? someone correct me if i'm (probably) wrong.

C-stick DI i can't really explain well. i'd have someone else help you there

thx trahh. im still learning the basics just recently picked up smash bros i thought i was the **** back in the day but recently looked up vids online only realizing that pretty much anyone who takes this game seriously can 4 stock me

 

[Rubyiris]

@Toph: If you said my techskill was garbage, I'd agree with you, because it is. :\

 

[Silent Wolf]

well he was addressing how you take advice. and according to how you take advice you would have responded how toph said you would have. it was just an example.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

thx trahh. im still learning the basics just recently picked up smash bros i thought i was the **** back in the day but recently looked up vids online only realizing that pretty much anyone who takes this game seriously can 4 stock me

no problem, except for i just noticed i was wrong in one point of that. i said 'if you think you're gonna die off the top, DI down and to the left. That's completely wrong, since you cannot ever DI the opposite of which you are launched, it does nothing. What i meant was if you think you'll die off the top, DI right and down.

haha and don't worry, everyone who enjoys the game at first thinks like this, ive heard that a million times

 

[unknown522]

when it comes to fthrowing falcon, percent matters a whole lot for what options they have. i know it's obvious lol, but seriously a change in 3% makes a huge difference in how they can sweetspot the ledge with a doublejump, or if a ftilt/jab will force them to up+b or just make them grab the edge, stuff like that.

when you fthrow him in my experience a nair recovery is just as likely as a knee recovery, if it's a nair, you can CC the first hit and shine them (unless they space very well.) you can also try fthrow and usmash when they jump into you, it's much harder to time, will trade a lot, and is pretty risky, but if you can get it off cleanly you should be able to get a free shine.

i'd say the goal with fthrow gimps against falco/falcon is to force them to up+b under the stage, because as long as you time your moves right, a falco/falcon up+bing below you should be dead 100% of the time. so i'd recommend ppl focus on forcing their up+b, rather than killing them, to be the goal of a fthrow gimp.

once you get them to up+b below you, try to shine them quickly, but if for some reason you aren't in a great positon to do it (your move traded with theirs, they were at very low percent before you hit them, they had good di,) just do a drill to spike them really quick. fox recovers fast from this move so you should be able to drop down and shine afterward very easily.

f-throw -> f-smash all day. A lot of times they throw out their aerial right away to cover themselves, but the f-smash takes a bit of time to move forward. I find it to work well a lot. Sometimes though, if they are too close and will definitely hit me with an aerial, then I walk away, then SH b-air -> shine. If they DI away, they will miss the ledge because of hitstun and be forced to up-b.

If they go for the sweetspot, then run off and shine, or take the edge. If I'm playing well, falcon is pretty free. But I mess up a lot, so it's a pain in the *** sometimes.




Also Lovage: I saw you matches vs tope. I was excited when you had that comeback going, but really heart-broken when you didn't win. You really don't let your mistakes phase you at all. That's really good man. I think of you were playing well, you would beat him easy, though I know how it feels to play bad vs him. I almost lost an MM at apex to him, but then he went double or nothing and I played pretty well, so he kinda got *****.

 

[Rubyiris]

well he was addressing how you take advice. and according to how you take advice you would have responded how toph said you would have. it was just an example.

It was a horrible example. I just hate "advice" where someone explains what I'm doing wrong, but doesn't provide an alternative. I think it would be obvious that if I knew what the better alternative is, I wouldn't have been making the wrong choice in the first place.

 

[JPOBS]

This weekend I realized I dont know what to do vs good falcons when im not hitting them.

like they incessantly DD camp, and when i try to appraoch with or overshoot a nair, he was doing this weird thing here he would short and fade a stomp in such a way that my nair completely missed and i got rocked by his combo. I dunno this was really weird.

also just in general i was running into a lot of gentlemens when he would whiff a nair or something and i thought i could punish. I dunno i need more experience vs really good falcons.

 

[Rubyiris]

ss started doing that ages ago and lesser falcons have only recently started to catch on. The only answer to this is not to force the approach. If you're in such a situation that falcon can do a retreating dair on your approach you're committing too heavily to your. you need to be close enough that your aerial comes out quicker than his own.

when falcon is dd camping super hard, they're trying to make you come to them. If you're both at the same stock, use the clock to your advantage. Gain a percentage lead and just chill at the other side of the stage. make the falcon come to you.

if you're behind a stock I'd consider substituting nair with running in and shielding. You run the risk of getting grabbed, but it's less immediately threatening than getting daired into easy auto combos.

 

[Tomacawk]

falcon dding isn't simply trying to make you come to him. he's trying to make an opening.
i think falcon is one of fox's harder matchups. it isn't as simple as people seem to say. it's always about how easy edge guarding falcon is but that greasy, wily race car driver always finds a way back

 

[Winston]

? in a lot of situations edgeguarding him is guaranteed. People just mess up

 

[Wenbobular]

I think the matchup blows for Falcon ~_~ once Fox enters certain distance and Falcon doesn't have a move already up Fox just gets to Nair and nothing bad will happen to him as far as I can tell

Maybe I need to play better Falcons but that's how the matchup has played out for my Fox

 

[Rubyiris]

@Tomacawk of course it's not PURELY to make foxes come to you, but part of creating openings is forcing the fox to do unsafe approaches by feigning your own openings.

Fox can run a train on falcon, but only if they catch falcon in certain situations. Falcon's aerials outrange yours. Fox can only really run a train on falcon when he has momentum, which is generated by catching Falcon from behind, or in shield.

The major things Fox has over falcon are more, easier guaranteed combos, and a better, easier edgeguard game. It's just relatively difficult for Fox to get in on a good Falcon. Falcon runs faster, and Fox doesn't have the range, Sheiks priority, or Falco's lasers to force reliable approaches.

 

[omgwtfToph]

It was a horrible example. I just hate "advice" where someone explains what I'm doing wrong, but doesn't provide an alternative. I think it would be obvious that if I knew what the better alternative is, I wouldn't have been making the wrong choice in the first place.

it was a perfectly fine example and you're a little baby LMAO

i like how ironic it was when i said "so if someone gave you criticism, you'd take it the wrong way?" and you immediately proceeded to take it the wrong way

watch you take this post the wrong way too

 

[JPOBS]

dang, i've never heard someone who wasnt from my home country (the bahamas) say "watch you ___" before

i thought it was part of our colloquial talk.
now theres americans living in japan saying it and i dont know what to think about anything anymore.

 

[Rubyiris]

it was a perfectly fine example and you're a little baby LMAO

i like how ironic it was when i said "so if someone gave you criticism, you'd take it the wrong way?" and you immediately proceeded to take it the wrong way

watch you take this post the wrong way too

how should i take it, then? I want to get better, not treated like a child.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Ruby, just relax lol. You arguing back with everything they say isn't gonna calm the situation. And you don't wanna come off so threatening when asking for advice, people are just not gonna wanna help

Just post for advice, ignore posts that don't appeal to you instead of responding, saves alot of dramaaz

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm argumentative at nature. Telling me not to argue is like telling me not to breathe.

I try though.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Lol, i used to be the SAME exact way, eventually i could tell it would irritate the people around me, this is irl.

I've learned to approach 'arguments' in a more discussion typed way. I wouldn't come off so agressive in argument as if i was trying to win, but now more so based off logical fair talk.

Believe me it's worth it in the end, on SWF and real life if you're like that too. is for me.

 

[Tomacawk]

Arguing isn't about being delusional, difficult, and immature.
Arguing is supposed to be presenting your conclusion with supportive, relevant premises in a manner which can compare and compete against another's argument.
You're doing nothing of the sort.
wow, I actually took the time to read your posts to give you specific examples of your consistent denial, and I found something more interesting--you dropped out of school?
....

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

^i agree with cutecawk minus the wording 'compete', that makes it more agressive imo. it should be more of 'this is my opinion, i'll tell my logics and you tell yours, visa versa till a solution is resolved'. maybe i sound crazy, i dunno.

 

[omgwtfToph]

how should i take it, then? I want to get better, not treated like a child.

sighhhhhhh

we literally had this conversation on aim for like an hour last week and apparently you got nothing out of it so i'm done talking to you on this thread about it

last tip from me: learn how to help yourself instead of always trying to solicit help from others

and i bet your initial reaction to that will be "how do i help myself????"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah chivalruse, axe, and I have p beat easymode.

psh i've been troll battling with P on youtube since MLG.

 

[Rubyiris]

sighhhhhhh

we literally had this conversation on aim for like an hour last week and apparently you got nothing out of it so i'm done talking to you on this thread about it

last tip from me: learn how to help yourself instead of always trying to solicit help from others

and i bet your initial reaction to that will be "how do i help myself????"

My initial reaction was "I don't remember having that conversation." My second reaction was agreeing that I don't really know how to help myself.

Instead of giving up on me, I think you should take note that I'm making an honest effort to better myself and should respect me for that and try a little harder in helping me out.

Arguing isn't about being delusional, difficult, and immature.
Arguing is supposed to be presenting your conclusion with supportive, relevant premises in a manner which can compare and compete against another's argument.
You're doing nothing of the sort.
wow, I actually took the time to read your posts to give you specific examples of your consistent denial, and I found something more interesting--you dropped out of school?
....

Yes I did. I'm still torn between the decision though. I wasn't getting anything out of high school, and I was superrrrrr behind in credits, so I figured I'd just eventually take the G.E.D, and take what I felt like was a much-needed break from school. I used to get really good grades in school, but I wouldn't complete the courses for various arbitrary reasons, generally related to laziness, and didn't actually get the credit for them. I ended up repeating senior year, and eventually dropping.

The bad part is that it makes job hunting hard.

 

[Tomacawk]

There's plenty of bad parts to dropping out--mostly the loss of information by not taking certain courses (imo). I'm not saying high school is high quality education; but it is an information dump you don't get anywhere else.
I have a few friends who took their GED test. Go take it now. Don't bother studying; they said it was extremely easy.
Salvage the situation the best you can. I suggest taking a semester or two in community college to prove to potential employers that you can maintain a commitment well (...get good grades...)
You could even get your associate's degree. It isn't hard. I did it in two years with minimal effort.

 

[Rubyiris]

I have no intentions of going to school outside of getting my G.E.D.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ruby, i had this problem too. Really, there is a skill level you hit where nothing someone else can say will help you. In fact, most of the things people will say will do nothing but make it harder for you to get better. This belief is why I rarely ask for help on the boards. If I ask a non-factual question I already have an expected answer and compare notes. Any time I come up with a problem or a question I just ask myself 1) do i know the answer? 2) how could anyone figure out the answer to this problem? 3) do i have the tools available to solve this problem? Stuff like that....

 

[Eggz]

lets do shrooms or e next gc

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NnxgnhI4HM

 

[joeplicate]

Ruby, i had this problem too. Really, there is a skill level you hit where nothing someone else can say will help you. In fact, most of the things people will say will do nothing but make it harder for you to get better. This belief is why I rarely ask for help on the boards. If I ask a non-factual question I already have an expected answer and compare notes. Any time I come up with a problem or a question I just ask myself 1) do i know the answer? 2) how could anyone figure out the answer to this problem? 3) do i have the tools available to solve this problem? Stuff like that....

i disagree

if you think that you're at that level, then it's most likely because you have an ego from being "this good" at smash, and you make up excuses or theorycraft your way out of taking advice and actually implementing it into your game.

the same thing applies on the boards, it's just that a lot of people don't know what they're talking about, but love to pretend that they do. that's why you gotta take everything with a grain of salt. but there is a TON of good information on improving, take the falco boards for example, or jesiahTEG's thread.


ruby: my advice to improvement is stay positive, don't make excuses for anything, and keep exploring your game.

negative thinking is self-reinforcing.

the more you john, complain, get angry, or pin your negativity on something in the game, the more likely you are to do it in the future. if you're in a negative place, you need to weed out your negative thoughts. BUT you need to avoid self-loathing, die-hard, man-i-suck-why-can't-i-get-this type thinking.

you'll know with 100% certainty when you're getting better, it's like night and day. make your main goals staying positive and trying to improve.

that's what i've been doing anyway, and it works like a charm

 

[Palpi]

Curious, what is the best way to tell if I should shield pressure after a nair or try to continue the combo? Many times it seems like I over commit and I do nair shine nair etc pressure when that 2nd nair shouldve been a waveshine to combo.

 

[omgwtfToph]

dang, i've never heard someone who wasnt from my home country (the bahamas) say "watch you ___" before

i thought it was part of our colloquial talk.
now theres americans living in japan saying it and i dont know what to think about anything anymore.

i thought hard about it and i don't think people in washington or hawaii say it (and definitely nobody in japan says it lol)

i'm 99% sure i got "watch you [do ___]" from my cousin who lives in mississippi

Ruby, i had this problem too. Really, there is a skill level you hit where nothing someone else can say will help you. In fact, most of the things people will say will do nothing but make it harder for you to get better. This belief is why I rarely ask for help on the boards. If I ask a non-factual question I already have an expected answer and compare notes. Any time I come up with a problem or a question I just ask myself 1) do i know the answer? 2) how could anyone figure out the answer to this problem? 3) do i have the tools available to solve this problem? Stuff like that....

hmmm i disagree. i think the better you get, the MORE what people say will help you - you can start filtering out the stuff that you don't agree with and tailor the advice people give you to your own style. you also get better at understanding the far-reaching implications of the simple stuff that better players say. my best personal example (ymmv) is when sw said to me something along the lines of "i started liking fd a lot more when i got good at wavelanding" and i didn't really know what he was talking about the time, and it hit me hardcore a few months later (when i moved to japan) and i was just like ohhhh **** otto

but rubyiris doesn't need help with the game itself, he needs help with his mentality and his outlook not on smash but on life. and you gotta turn inward for that

uhh and rubyiris lol i haven't really given up on you (i don't really give up on people as a principle... or else i would've already given up on myself) but i'm definitely done with this conversation in this thread for this period of time LOL

but yeah you literally like, interrupted me when i was giving you advice about some melee match you linked me to, to complain about how mean to you lovage was, and i told you he was really smart and if you disagree with what lovage says because he comes across as "mean" to you then you should try to filter out the negativity and try to understand the positive parts of what he's saying. then i extrapolated it to life in general and said you should try to get rid of the negative thoughts and personal bull**** both when you smash and when you're going about your daily business and you kept on *****ing about lovage *shrug* so i went to go watch anime or something lol

lets do shrooms or e next gc

uhhhh.......

sup shane LOL (eggz. namesearch activation complete)

when i get back you and I are doing shrooms too, but you gotta smash with me while we're on em too :o

 

[FoxLisk]

i think not getting anything out of advice is probably a function of most swf-ers giving garbage advice. i've posted vids and gotten absolutely nothing useful from the forums because people tend to say the most superficial things they can. that's not because i'm at some level where advice doesn't help me, I just have to find people who can give good advice and will actually bother.

try playing matches with your friends and after every game the winner points out something the loser was doing wrong. it can work wonders.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm always improving but I have super unrealistic expectations.

@Toph: You're really reading far too much into that conversation. Sure, I interrupted you, but I still studied everything you had to say and started to work on implementing it into my game. Like I said earlier; Aim logger ftw.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

ruby: my advice to improvement is stay positive, don't make excuses for anything, and keep exploring your game.

negative thinking is self-reinforcing.

the more you john, complain, get angry, or pin your negativity on something in the game, the more likely you are to do it in the future. if you're in a negative place, you need to weed out your negative thoughts. BUT you need to avoid self-loathing, die-hard, man-i-suck-why-can't-i-get-this type thinking.

you'll know with 100% certainty when you're getting better, it's like night and day. make your main goals staying positive and trying to improve.

that's what i've been doing anyway, and it works like a charm

this is my thought train with melee and it works out amazingly. I even go as deep with it as say, not johning about stages. I always hear my friends say 'god i ****ing hate fountain of dreams' then procede to play a mediocre game on it. I just stick with not complaining about stages period. It takes away that 'ill probably do bad on this stage cause i don't like it' attitude.

Getting agrivated, johning, controller johns, all of the negativity/excuses don't provide any positive outcome. they don't suddenly make you play better obviously, and your just hurting your mentality during the games.

Lol ruby, it's obvious you're not going to be pro overnight, and you're aware of that, so use your logics, and set REALISTIC expectations!

Learn new techskill that you haven't fully developed, everytime you play. lookout for reading your opponent more however you can, the more you make good things more habitual the better.

Learning Waveshine OOS in tournament is a pretty satisfying goal for me, one step at a time babay